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    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:04 am

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    mnztr

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    Post  mnztr Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:26 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    GarryB wrote:I would be more cautious... putting enormous amounts of pressure on people can create diamonds... but it can also create an explosion and a great big mess....

    Absence of pressure is the reason for the current mess

    As for explosion they already had plenty as a result of low pressure and shitty attitude

    You have no way of knowing that. If you put to much pressure sometimes people cut corners and you end up with disasters.

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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:37 am

    mnztr wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    GarryB wrote:I would be more cautious... putting enormous amounts of pressure on people can create diamonds... but it can also create an explosion and a great big mess....

    Absence of pressure is the reason for the current mess

    As for explosion they already had plenty as a result of low pressure and shitty attitude

    You have no way of knowing that. If you put to much pressure sometimes people cut corners and you end up with disasters.

    Sometimes they would do

    Unlike now when they are constantly cutting corners because they (rightfully) think that they will definitely get away with it and have been getting away with it routinely

    As for disasters the whole thing has been one cascading disaster so there's nowhere to go but up

    Crank up the pressure until they squeal and then add some more pressure just in case




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    Post  Tsavo Lion Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:43 am

    Perhaps if they hired some NK or Chinese cheap labor, that dry dock would be finished by now, or at least lot sooner otherwise.
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    Post  mnztr Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:30 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Perhaps if they hired some NK or Chinese cheap labor, that dry dock would be finished by now, or at least lot sooner otherwise.

    They probably lack expertise in this type of construction. Russia sometimes amazes me and sometime mortifys me. The Kerch bridge was done in record time. World Cup stadiums, amazing. This one, clearly not the tier one companies. Its all very inconsistant. Digging hole and building the rebar walls should not really be that complex a job, but there could be some local conditions that make it harder. Who knows. I always suspected they sunk that dock so they could get the state to build a drydock. Something was fishy and it is not the sea air lol

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    Post  Tsavo Lion Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:55 am

    mnztr wrote:They probably lack expertise in this type of construction.
    under Russian supervision they can build it, esp. since they built many large dry docs before.

    IMO there is not enough incentive to finish it fast, otherwise there wouldn't be any hollering at them from Shoigu.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:51 pm

    Sometimes they would do

    Unlike now when they are constantly cutting corners because they (rightfully) think that they will definitely get away with it and have been getting away with it routinely

    As for disasters the whole thing has been one cascading disaster so there's nowhere to go but up

    Crank up the pressure until they squeal and then add some more pressure just in case

    No point trying to satisfy you, you think the absolute worst of everyone and assume everyone is on the take and being slack, you are already being pissy, so there is no point changing anything because nothing would satisfy you.
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:41 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Sometimes they would do

    Unlike now when they are constantly cutting corners because they (rightfully) think that they will definitely get away with it and have been getting away with it routinely

    As for disasters the whole thing has been one cascading disaster so there's nowhere to go but up

    Crank up the pressure until they squeal and then add some more pressure just in case

    No point trying to satisfy you, you think the absolute worst of everyone and assume everyone is on the take and being slack, you are already being pissy, so there is no point changing anything because nothing would satisfy you.

    Satisfying me is not in their job description, other stuff is (which they aren't doing as required)

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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:36 am

    Will an American aircraft carrier appear in the Black Sea: how does a new Turkish canal bypassing the Bosporus threaten Russia?

    Even if at some point Turkey won't allow the Adm. K leave the Black Sea, having it there will give 1 more card to play against NATO.
    If the Eurasian & Iranian Canals r built, all Turkish straits could be bypassed by Russian ships & subs.
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    Post  lancelot Sat Apr 24, 2021 9:38 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Will an American aircraft carrier appear in the Black Sea: how does a new Turkish canal bypassing the Bosporus threaten Russia?

    Even if at some point Turkey won't allow the Adm. K leave the Black Sea, having it there will give 1 more card to play against NATO.
    If the Eurasian & Iranian Canals r built, all Turkish straits could be bypassed by Russian ships & subs.

    Russia does not need a carrier stationed at the Black Sea when they have airbases.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:36 pm

    lancelot wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:Will an American aircraft carrier appear in the Black Sea: how does a new Turkish canal bypassing the Bosporus threaten Russia?

    Even if at some point Turkey won't allow the Adm. K leave the Black Sea, having it there will give 1 more card to play against NATO.
    If the Eurasian & Iranian Canals r built, all Turkish straits could be bypassed by Russian ships & subs.

    Russia does not need a carrier stationed at the Black Sea when they have airbases.
    Istanbul (basically the farther away point from Russia in the black sea is at about 500km from Crimea). The eastern part of the black sea can be reached very quickly from the bases in Krasnodar krai or in Abkhazia.

    Furthermore those bases can even host Mig31k or Tu-22M.
    Fat chance of doing the same with a carrier.

    No need for a Russian carrier in the black sea (maybe just for building or repairing, should they decide to build one in Kerch in the future). The Mediterranean sea would be already a much better location for a carrier (also for training operations).
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sat Apr 24, 2021 6:17 pm

    Operating it there would greatly complicate NATO ops & provide year round training; it could also be used as an LHA to aid in amphibian assault, ASW, SAR, & DR.
    Arm it with dozens of LRCMs in containers & u have an arsenal ship, = to their CGN.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:41 am

    They have no reason to take it in t the Black Sea, there are no Russian ship yards big enough to work on it, and no value in having it in there.

    If the US wants to send aircraft carriers to the Black Sea I am sure Putin would invite them personally... they would be dead in minutes... it is an enclosed sea with Russian land based air power there able to launch attacks in minutes and no where for the carrier to run or hide.

    Shooting fish in a barrel... and if you don't understand how easy that is... if you fill a barrel up with water and put fish into the barrel... to kill the fish just fire one shot into the barrel. The enclosed space and supersonic shock wave of the single shot will kill all the fish in that barrel immediately...
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:43 pm

    NATO CV/Ns can stay in the E. Med. & send their fighter-bombers across Turkey, Greece & Bulgaria into the Black Sea, supported by tankers that Adm. K fighters could engage 100s of miles from her coast. The USN bombed Afghanistan in 2001 from across Pakistan, flying the same distance from the Arabian Sea, & the USAF from even farther away in Diego Garcia.
    With the new canal, NATO may send other big ships & subs to the Black, Baltic & Barents Seas with 100s of CMs & ASW helos/UAV/UUVs to threaten Russia from both sides & support their proxies.
    The BSF could also become "the fish in the barrel" to be shot at.
    If Zaliv's dry doc is too small, 1 could be built; in a few years the Nikolayev yard that built the Kiev class, Adm. K & her sister ship will be under Russia's control & could also be restored, if need be.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:59 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add text)
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:24 pm

    Maybe later, when they have more than 4 amphibious ships /helicopter carriers, they could base one in the black sea or in the east med, in addition to two each for the norther and Pacific fleet, but actual aircraft carriers in the black sea? What is the point when you have bases and airfields at less than 500 km from practically any location in the coasts?

    Even in the absurd hypothesis of a Russian landing in Anatolia during a war with Turkey, a carrier would be redundant there. What they would need is a lot of amphibious forces and escort and cover for those, plus massive air force support (again they have bases in Crimea, Krasnodar krai and Abkhazia).
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    Post  LMFS Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:19 am

    Carriers in a land-locked sea, some keep proudly parading their ignorance and obtuseness over, and over and over Embarassed
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:26 am

    If the BS is better protected, then it's a good location for training just like the Great Lakes were for the USN training carriers during WWII.
    The Adm. K spends most of its time in port/yard & can be used in the BS for training & occasional ops there & in the Med/Red Seas/IO/Atlantic better than from anywhere else.
    Unlike the Caspian, it's not completely land locked, just like the Med./Red/Japan/SC Sea, & the Persian Gulf, where TAKRs & CV/Ns been operating for decades.
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    Post  lancelot Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:45 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:If the BS is better protected, then it's a good location for training just like the Great Lakes were for the USN training carriers during WWII.
    The Adm. K spends most of its time in port/yard & can be used in the BS for training & occasional ops there & in the Med/Red Seas/IO/Atlantic better than from anywhere else.
    Unlike the Caspian, it's not completely land locked, just like the Med./Red/Japan/SC Sea, & the Persian Gulf, where TAKRs & CV/Ns been operating for decades.

    It makes little sense for training in the current context as well. That area is not representative of the places where the carriers would be located, i.e. the Northern Fleet and the Pacific Fleet, so operating in the Black Sea would not translate well. The only way it would make sense would be as a base to project carriers into the Mediterranean and Persian Gulf. But I think that is a waste of time. At least the Persian Gulf is a waste of time. Let the Chinese waste money handling that. In the Mediterranean any carrier use would be severely limited by the fact that there it is NATO who has the place sprinkled with land airbases.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Mon Apr 26, 2021 3:47 am

    That area is not representative of the places where the carriers would be located, i.e. the Northern Fleet and the Pacific Fleet, so operating in the Black Sea would not translate well.
    it's good enough for basic flight ops, & has good & bad weather in all 3 seasons. Crews trained on the Adm. K could then go to other carriers & get more location specific training there.
    FYI, all USN CV/Ns been training off their coasts & in the Caribbean before going to the Med., W. Pac., & the Persian Gulf. The CV-67 was based in Florida "for training only" but still got deployed; later it was neglected & eventually stricken, as a new CVN replaced it.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Apr 26, 2021 4:22 pm

    The K is based in the Northern Fleet and unlikely to be moved from there because that is where it will be docked and any repairs or upgrades will be done there.

    Nikolyaiev is in the Ukraine and is not Russian territory, and even if it was the money needed to fix it up and get it up and running would be more than building a brand new shipyard... and they have already upgraded several of their shipyards so why waste money on a shipyard that isn't even Russian.

    Better weather is not a good reason to base a ship that will be operated in the Arctic. They have two sets of training facilities now, both in nice weather places... their pilots can learn the basics there and go to the Northern Fleet for actual deck experience.

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