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    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    GarryB
    GarryB

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    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 32 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  GarryB Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:06 pm

    - they want Russia to see that they have something big to escort them- it's the same with intercepting bombers.

    But most of the time they don't, which is rather embarrassing....

    .-but the TAKTNs r not CVNs & can sail in/out just like in the Red Sea that can be closed at Suez in wartime.

    There was no such thing as an aircraft carrier when the agreement on transiting the Bosphorus straights was written.

    They sent carriers into the black sea to get them fixed when they had the shipyard in what is now Ukraine.

    Now they have no reason to send them in to the Black Sea.... just let it go.

    access from the Med. Sea is important to Russia for mil., diplomatic & economic reasons.

    It is... it is an important trade route and will only become more important, but there is no sense in basing an aircraft carrier there... now or in the future.

    - agreed, but I just hyperbolized it. They had big ships in the BSF before & r expanding up bases. More room will be freed up once they scrap all those ex-Ukr.N boats that r not worth to keep.

    The Soviet Union had a shipyard there that built carriers... it is no longer viable and likely couldn't make a canoe these days... there is not reason for Russia to base any really big ships in the Black Sea. Temporary basing them in Tartus while on operations with Egypt or Syria or a few other countries in the region might make sense but only temporary and never to the Black Sea.

    - it'll take only 5-6 days to get from the BS to Girbraltar, & 6-7 more days to Mid-Atlantic.

    In a conflict situation sending a carrier group from the Black Sea to the middle of the Atlantic makes no sense... it would be running a gauntlet of hostile countries to reach the atlantic ocean.... and for what?

    The reality is that the Kuznetsov and its two Kirov escorts will be based in the Pacific Fleet or the Northern fleet... in times of conflict... global conflict.... they will likely remain in port and provide more protection to the local defences. A localised conflict further away they could sail to intervene and from those two ports they can pretty much reach anywhere they want soon enough.

    - she isn't in the position to impose trade embargoes for long;

    A trade embargo or sanctions is a response in kind... Russia is not going out into the world looking for countries to bully... if a country does not want to trade with Russia that is no problem at all.... there are plenty of countries that will be interested.

    her own people will suffer w/o the local trade.

    Not understanding what you mean? Russian people will suffer if Russia trades with other countries, or the people in the countries Russia trades with will suffer?

    I would think Russian investment will help companies grow and develop... some will fail but new ones will take their place... good relations with the US normally results in Cocacola turning up and buying up all the bottling plants and selling coke and obliterating local drink companies... Russia does not have a Coca Cola...

    They probably have the same problem those countries have in that regard.

    What can L. America offer that other regions can't? Llama/alpaca wool & meat? Lamb, alligator meat? Coffee, corn, coca, cane sugar, minerals, Jamaican Rum? Russia can either do w/o or can get them from Asia & Africa.

    It all depends on exchange rate and the prices asked... latin America has a totally different climate to Russia so some things will grow there that wont grow in Russia, so a company can look at what Russia can make themselves efficiently and try to produce that.... they could use Russian agriculture technology and farming equipment to develop very productive farming techniques that makes them internationally competitive in what ever they happen to be producing...

    There was a video on this forum recently about Syrians using Russian machines to create olive oil or some seed oil or something... that sort of thing.... one country could provide products to Russia but also sell to other countries around the world... Russia wouldn't own the product, they could be just one of the consumers while selling machinery and equipment and how to use it efficiently and they can use it to make money around the world.

    It might be that they already have a product but Russian hardware and machines can help them make it faster and easier and cheaper and Russian ships can deliver it to a wider number of customers so their boosted production gets distributed properly where before the US kept them down and weak.

    Therefore, their volume of trade with Russia will never be big enough to pay for the Russian arms & other products.

    They don't have to buy Russian weapons if they don't want them... but farm machinery and other tools and equipment will end up paying for themselves and will be much cheaper than equipment from the US or Europe.

    They can pay with $ or gold or laborers or cheap tours.

    As they work and grow they will generate $ of their own... they can pay in products to start with but unless something is seriously wrong they should be making money out of this too.

    If Japan, US &/ Canada build plants there to produce goods for export to the US, Canada & EU like they did in China & SE Asia, only then those nations will have enough hard currency to buy anything they need/want.

    Rubbish. Western companies built sweatshops in China and in other places in Asia before that... the goal is not to lift up the country... the goal is to find the cheapest labour pool with no regulations on safety for the workers so if a few die or are permanently damaged you give them $10 and tell them to go away.

    China managed to use the investment by western companies building state of the art production facilities in their country and benefit from it but for most countries as soon as the workers start expecting better treatment and decent wages those powerful western companies close up the factories and move on and those countries are left hanging...

    It is not growth and development... it is abuse.

    - the US will have to turn South & work to lift them out of poverty instead of borrowing $ & buying everything from A to Z from China.

    They should have done it 50 years ago and been part of a strong and growing couple of continents, but instead look at what they did and are still doing in Venezuela and Bolivia. They have presented the highest morals and the greatest ethics the world has ever known and they have treated their neighbours and allies like shit and criticised everyone based on their high morals and ethics and never once looked at themselves with those two measures... which is why the world knows America is full of shit... if America was burning I wouldn't piss on them to help put them out.

    - those who wouldn't be killed or jailed & who will get higher standard of living once those who fleece them r out of power.

    Except there is no higher standard of living... look at Georgia and the Ukraine... that is the better standard of living the EU and US are offering... they are the wolves at the gates asking to be let in to save those lovely tasty sheep from that evil corrupt sheep dog that only wants to eat them for himself... he is a dog and he eats meat so it is only logical that he secretly wants to kill them and eat them for himself... all you sheep have to do is open the gate and me wolf and my friends lion and tiger will take down that evil sheep dog and you will be free to all become millionaires and billionaires like the 1% in the west...

    Well you can guess what happens if the sheep open the gate... we saw it in Ukraine and perhaps Armenia too...

    In this case Putin... the Sheep dog does eat meat but lack of murdered sheep over the last 20 years suggests he is happy with his dog roll and biscuits... it is the west that wants to rob from Russia and they wont give every Russian a living standard boost... for fucks sake they can't even help the majority of people in their own countries... why would they help Russians... the only reason they are talking to them is because they can't open that gate themselves...

    .- viable or not, he's is the only real opposition that isn't afraid to talk truth to power.

    What truth? My underpants are killing me... he is pathetic... but the west doesn't want anyone with a spine or brains... they want someone they can control and Navalny is the biggest bitch I have ever seen... he ticks all the boxes... doesn't matter he is a nazi.... didn't matter in the Ukraine, does not matter in Russia.... be hilarious if he ever did get voted president.... maybe Russia starts using US voting machines... then even my left testicle could win the election... his first action would probably be to nuke Poland.

    - if there's no high demand, there is no supply to speak of.

    Demand does not just happen... companies spend trillions a year on advertising.... even for products that sell well anyway...

    Otherwise, those new ties & links would be there by now.

    Russia has developed independence in machines and food and products... now they have something to sell what they need now is access to markets and that is what their navy will provide in the near future...

    Of course they also needed a reason for much of the last 30 years food was cheap and plentiful from EU countries and products from Europe and teh west were convenient but now the West has imposed sanctions and Russia has responded with their own sanctions that broke that trade interaction... Russia has invested in filling the gaps created but there are still things they get from the EU that they could just as easily get from other countries... countries not so hostile to Russia... so this is an opportunity provided by western hostility to find new trade partners with new products or new sources of wanted products.

    The US can't dictate to Brazil, Argentina, Peru, Chile, Nicaragua, Cuba, Mexico, Ecuador & Venezuela as before.

    They have never stopped before. they have tried regime change games in Venezuela and Bolivia and stolen gold from Venezuela via the UK... ironically the only country you listed that they don't dictate to is Cuba and we know why.

    - a lot of trade still goes through there, & those areas r strategically important, as I said at the start. If nothing else, NATO navies need to be watched there.

    Currently yes, but when Russian plans are fulfilled and a lot of trade from Asia to Europe starts going the North Sea Route those waters are going to get much quieter and much less interesting.

    - the fleet must be balanced to meet all challeges.

    Not really. They can't afford a fleet that can defeat the rest of the world no matter where it meets them... and nor could they become the world police either, but then they probably don't want to.

    .- more ties & links will need to come 1st before frequent naval visits.

    It is the visits that start creating the ties.

    Colonialism era is over;

    Wasn't suggesting a visit with guns firing...

    now they can be established from offices & living rooms with Skype, phone, fax, & internet. I can directly order a product from Russia or China online.

    You can... and when it arrives you think... this is not what I ordered and you look back at the photo on the webpage and you sort of realise it is but it looks good in the photo but thin and weak and cheap in your hands... now you feel cheated...

    Part of the fun of being an international trading nation is to visit other countries... an insight into their culture might stop you trying to sell rainbow mugs to the Vatican for instance...

    - she will be used for training, trials, tests/eval. & occasional deployments as before, & there's no need to spend more $ on long cruises than necessary.

    The crew are doing their job... long cruises take longer but don't cost that much more and are necessary for training... in the real world these carriers will need to protect Russian surface ships anywhere on the planet... having them hug the Russian coastline means if you need to send them to the central or south american region they wont know what they are doing.

    They need to practise operations away from Russia for long periods of time because that is what they are for.

    - if they r going to be overspend,& they will, more arrows in the quiver of Putin's critics.

    Putins critics are cowards and foreigners... who cares about how many arrows they have. They live in their own little world and any amount spend on Russias military will offend them... Russia doesn't need a military.... they can let HATO protect them... Rolling Eyes

    - I doubt the US will care much for Turkey; she's mostly on her own already.

    America doesn't care about anyone... not even 99% of itself... as you can see by the worn out infrastructure and crumbling economy... she could care less if Turkey was washed away in a flood... what she does care about is her bases in the region.

    - the Ottoman Empire is gone & the Turks will be lucky to keep their nation together; besides Russia, they have Ms of Arabs, Kurds, Persians, Greeks, Armenians, Georgians & Jews to deal with on/near their borders.

    I am sure that is on the American agenda of countries to break up further down the list... Russia is at the top of that list.

    Perhaps the solution is a new list with America at the top.

    There is an old saying... sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander... roughly translates to tomato sauce for the bull is tomato sauce for the cow( when she stops giving milk).

    - taking the straits isn't taking over the whole Asia Minor. Russia took Buryatia & the Outer Manchuria from China & the USSR took back S. Sakhalin & the Kurils from Japan, much bigger territories in Siberia & the FE; the Turkish coast is only a few hours sailing time from Crimea, which is now well fortified & well connected with the mainland.

    And Russia does not want it... just like it does not want Ukraine or Georgia or any of the Baltic States... or Poland.

    -no, I don't hope for that, but it can still happen, & the Turks know this.

    The Turks know that HATOs purpose is to find an excuse to attack Russia, and Russian troops attacking Turkey would be the idea opportunity for hawks in the US who believe that Americas military might will flatten Russia as easily as a car hitting the ground would crush a bug.

    You know like HATO trained Georgian troops would get to Moscow in three days of fighting Russian troops and Ukraine would be in Moscow on the fourth day of fighting...

    - a sub with Poseidons gone from its base & an announcement that it's ready to release them will be enough for the US/RN CSG to sail away, just like the Argentinian CV that wasn't used to save it from the RN SSN. The VMF can do w/o a CBG going there.

    You are missing the point... the Russian carrier is not there to scare away the enemy ships... the Russian carrier is there to protect the Russian ships and it is the Russian ships that will sink the enemy ships if need be.

    If the Russians send ships they need a carrier to ensure those ships are safe.

    - they will create an internal 5th column to seceed from Denmark; the US mil. already has pretty much full control, if not free reign in Greenland.

    They get caught trying to sell Greenland and I think there will be a reaction that hurts US interests in the region permanently... look at how well previous regime change missions have gone... Boris Johnson, Micron, and I have not mentioned Ukraine enough or Bolivia or Venezuela...

    - then, there is no need to patrol them with CBGs; establishing trade links already been covered above.

    The carrier groups will be working the trade routes to drum up new trade and to reinforce existing ties... it will essentially be patrolling them anyway...

    there r big areas in Russia that r economically no better, if not worse, than any in L. America.

    That is probably true, so it wont just be Russia helping them... they will be helping Russia too. Technology for Venezuela to process her own oil resources so she can sell fuel instead of cheap heavy oil...

    Do u know why their rich don't want to invest there? A: because they want to fleece it instead & the legal system isn't set up to favor private ownership & small/medium business enterprise.

    I would say decades under the US their legal systems are already skewed in favour of people with deep pockets, but up until recently the US was actively keeping foreigners out of its backyard with all sorts of threats and incentives like no access to the huge rich US market if you try to enter central and south american markets.

    Well guess what buddy. When you ban Russian companies from the US market then that threat loses its sting and all you will have left is the opposite.... you can access the USA market as long as you don't access other countries in Central and South America... it might work for some companies but there is so much anti Russia BS on both sides of US politics that wont last long and they will end up sanctioning them out of the market... especially if they make money.

    If they invest more in L. America, good luck to get good returns! 1 day their mansions may be torched, as happened many times before in Russian history.

    Burning sugar cane fields in Cuba was part of the playbook for the CIA... in the chapter on sour grapes I believe just above butt hurt.

    - Canada has higher standard of living then the US. I used to live in Syracuse, NY & every weekend Canadians came there to shop & spend less then they would at home. The French Canadians go to Maine, & most of them would never emigrate.

    Like Americans going to Mexico to get things there they can't afford in the US like medicine... have heard lots of Americans also go north to Canada for the same reason... though at one time it was to avoid the draft.

    - he is not a VP anymore & has more power.

    Nothing has actually changed... he is the third US president to allow war crimes in Yemen...

    - he wants to improve relations with Iran & save the nuclear deal. Iran & KSA hate each others' guts.

    He made the condition that Iran returns to the deal, which is fucking hilarious because Iran are sticking to the deal... their actions have been in response to the US and the EU not following the deal... they are allowed to increase enrichment if the other side are not following the deal either... and they are not.

    Iran has said no to talks until the US starts following the rules of the deal... ie remove sanctions and start delivering on promises... Iran wont return to the deal till the EU starts honouring it too.

    - for the same reason Mexico can't boycott the US even after loosing 1/2 of its territory. Ms of Mexicans & C. Americans live in the US & send $ to their relatives home, while many work South of the border at US owned/sponsored plants.

    US owned sweat shops in Mexico are a symptom of the disease, not part of the solution.

    - many ships were sunk with land-lease arms & supplies that weren't used against the Germans on the battlefield or in war effort/production. So, they did delay their defeat & thus prolonged the war.

    Most of that crap was old shit the Brits didn't want any more... Hurricanes and Cromwells... it did diddly squat to shorten the war...
    Tsavo Lion
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    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 32 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:24 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    .-but the TAKTNs r not CVNs & can sail in/out just like in the Red Sea that can be closed at Suez in wartime.

    There was no such thing as an aircraft carrier when the agreement on transiting the Bosphorus straights was written. -FYI, It went into effect on 9 November 1936 and was registered in the League of Nations Treaty Series on 11 December 1936.
    In 1918, HMS Argus became the world's first carrier capable of launching and recovering naval aircraft
    .

    Now they have no reason to send them in to the Black Sea....- true, they have reasons to keep the Adm. K there & send out & bring it back, if need be.

    access from the Med. Sea is important to Russia for mil., diplomatic & economic reasons.
    It is... it is an important trade route and will only become more important, but there is no sense in basing an aircraft carrier there... now or in the future.- the French CVN & Spanish LHD/CV r based in Toulon & Rota instead of on the Atlantic coast. The Med. Sea consists of several smaller seas, & the BS is its natural extension, just like the Red Sea became after the Suez Canal was opened. The VMF could occasionaly base a TAKRN in Sudan too.

    - agreed, but I just hyperbolized it. They had big ships in the BSF before & r expanding up bases. More room will be freed up once they scrap all those ex-Ukr.N boats that r not worth to keep.
    The Soviet Union had a shipyard there that built carriers... it is no longer viable and likely couldn't make a canoe these days... there is not reason for Russia to base any really big ships in the Black Sea. Temporary basing them in Tartus while on operations with Egypt or Syria or a few other countries in the region might make sense but only temporary and never to the Black Sea.- if the US had economic or geopolitical/mil. reasons, CVNs would be based in their Mexican Gulf coast too. All semi-closed seas r part of the World Ocean, & Russia has no luxury of long ice-free temperate coastlines that is not remote like Kola & Kamchatka.

    - it'll take only 5-6 days to get from the BS to Girbraltar, & 6-7 more days to Mid-Atlantic.
    In a conflict situation sending a carrier group from the Black Sea to the middle of the Atlantic makes no sense... it would be running a gauntlet of hostile countries to reach the atlantic ocean.... and for what?- if need be, it could go around Africa, just like the Baltic Fleet ships that went to Tsushima.

    The reality is that the Kuznetsov and its two Kirov escorts will be based in the Pacific Fleet or the Northern fleet... in times of conflict... global conflict.... they will likely remain in port and provide more protection to the local defences.- local conflicts in the BS/Med./IO r more likely than in the Barens/Japan Sea.
    A localised conflict further away they could sail to intervene and from those two ports they can pretty much reach anywhere they want soon enough.- I doubt it. They'll need at least 3 in each fleet to have 2 ready 24/7/365. Besides, Russia has no vital interests to defend in the areas where the USN/AF &/ their allied forces can reach long before her surface VMF can.

    her own people will suffer w/o the local trade.
    Not understanding what you mean? Russian people will suffer if Russia trades with other countries, or the people in the countries Russia trades with will suffer?-
    Russian people will suffer if Russia doesn't trade with other countries; they'll have shortages, empty shelves & high prices, just like in the Soviet times.


    Russia does not have a Coca Cola...- the Pepsi-Cola production line was set up there in exchange for Vodka, & it was more popular than local soft drinks. When I got to the US, I found it tasted better than the US made that wasn't sold there.

    What can L. America offer that other regions can't? Llama/alpaca wool & meat? Lamb, alligator meat? Coffee, corn, coca, cane sugar, minerals, Jamaican Rum? Russia can either do w/o or can get them from Asia & Africa.

    It all depends on exchange rate and the prices asked... latin America has a totally different climate to Russia so some things will grow there that wont grow in Russia, so a company can look at what Russia can make themselves efficiently and try to produce that.... they could use Russian agriculture technology and farming equipment to develop very productive farming techniques that makes them internationally competitive in what ever they happen to be producing....- all that won't generate big earnings on the world market, esp. since L. America is so remote. At best, it'll mostly help the local economy save them $ on imports.

    If Japan, US &/ Canada build plants there to produce goods for export to the US, Canada & EU like they did in China & SE Asia, only then those nations will have enough hard currency to buy anything they need/want.
    ..China managed to use the investment by western companies building state of the art production facilities in their country and benefit from it but for most countries as soon as the workers start expecting better treatment and decent wages those powerful western companies close up the factories and move on and those countries are left hanging...- the L. Americans can demand technology transfers like the Chinese did. If they can manage the Panama Canal & local production, they can manage new plants producing everything from A to Z. Labor costs there will be a lot le$$ & future profit margins will justify investing there.

    - the US will have to turn South & work to lift them out of poverty instead of borrowing $ & buying everything from A to Z from China.
    They should have done it 50 years ago and been part of a strong and growing couple of continents, but instead look at what they did and are still doing in Venezuela and Bolivia. - it's not too late, & won't be for decades to come.

    .- viable or not, he's is the only real opposition that isn't afraid to talk truth to power.
    What truth? -of who Putin,"the naked king", & his buddies really r.
    My underpants are killing me... he is pathetic... but the west doesn't want anyone with a spine or brains... they want someone they can control and Navalny is the biggest bitch I have ever seen...-if he was so insignificant, why send him to max. security prison? He reminds me of the Maximus in the Gladiator movie who survived his execution & won all the battles in the arena before his final fight with Commodus.  

    - if there's no high demand, there is no supply to speak of.
    Demand does not just happen... companies spend trillions a year on advertising.... even for products that sell well anyway...- they'll need to spend $Bs on TAKR/CVNs & their visits. L. America isn't Japan & China of the mid 1800s, & there r no markets to be opened with gunboat diplomacy.

    Otherwise, those new ties & links would be there by now.
    Russia has developed independence in machines and food and products... now they have something to sell what they need now is access to markets and that is what their navy will provide in the near future...
    Of course they also needed a reason for much of the last 30 years food was cheap and plentiful from EU countries and products from Europe and teh west were convenient but now the West has imposed sanctions and Russia has responded with their own sanctions that broke that trade interaction... Russia has invested in filling the gaps created but there are still things they get from the EU that they could just as easily get from other countries... countries not so hostile to Russia... so this is an opportunity provided by western hostility to find new trade partners with new products or new sources of wanted products.- time will tell if they'll succeed, & I wish them good luck!

    The US can't dictate to Brazil, Argentina, Peru, Chile, Nicaragua, Cuba, Mexico, Ecuador & Venezuela as before.
    They have never stopped before. they have tried regime change games in Venezuela and Bolivia and stolen gold from Venezuela via the UK...- they still failed, & I doubt the US will prevail in that.
    ironically the only country you listed that they don't dictate to is Cuba and we know why.- it can be taken anytime, just like independent minded Romania was in the Eastern Bloc. A lot easier for the USN/AF/MC & Army SF to invade it than for the PLAN/AF/Marines to invade Taiwan.

    - the fleet must be balanced to meet all challeges.
    Not really. They can't afford a fleet that can defeat the rest of the world no matter where it meets them... and nor could they become the world police either, but then they probably don't want to.- the littoral navies r building up & outsiders regularly visit adding oil to the fire; Russia can't just sit with folded arms & watch.

    .- more ties & links will need to come 1st before frequent naval visits.
    It is the visits that start creating the ties.- how r the past & future Tu-160 & smaller ships visits any less effective? they could send hospital ships instead, like china did, with more positive impact

    Colonialism era is over;
    Wasn't suggesting a visit with guns firing...- the European colonies set up markets that traded with the mother country. Those former colonies can now decide on their trade. Japan & Taiwan have trade links with them w/o any naval visits.

    now they can be established from offices & living rooms with Skype, phone, fax, & internet. I can directly order a product from Russia or China online.
    You can... and when it arrives you think... this is not what I ordered and you look back at the photo on the webpage and you sort of realise it is but it looks good in the photo but thin and weak and cheap in your hands... now you feel cheated...- I contacted the arbitration & had them refund me 1/2 the $ I paid; a year later I ordered something better from a different company.

    - she will be used for training, trials, tests/eval. & occasional deployments as before, & there's no need to spend more $ on long cruises than necessary.
    The crew are doing their job... long cruises take longer but don't cost that much more and are necessary for training... in the real world these carriers will need to protect Russian surface ships anywhere on the planet... having them hug the Russian coastline means if you need to send them to the central or south american region they wont know what they are doing.
    They need to practise operations away from Russia for long periods of time because that is what they are for.- only if/when they start building TAKR/CVNs; they won't be sending the Adm. K that far.

    - taking the straits isn't taking over the whole Asia Minor. Russia took Buryatia & the Outer Manchuria from China & the USSR took back S. Sakhalin & the Kurils from Japan, much bigger territories in Siberia & the FE; the Turkish coast is only a few hours sailing time from Crimea, which is now well fortified & well connected with the mainland.
    And Russia does not want it... just like it does not want Ukraine or Georgia or any of the Baltic States... or Poland.- desires change, & Ukraine has her former lands that r larger than Crimea with mostly ethnic Russians there.

    - a sub with Poseidons gone from its base & an announcement that it's ready to release them will be enough for the US/RN CSG to sail away, just like the Argentinian CV that wasn't used to save it from the RN SSN. The VMF can do w/o a CBG going there.
    You are missing the point... the Russian carrier is not there to scare away the enemy ships... the Russian carrier is there to protect the Russian ships and it is the Russian ships that will sink the enemy ships if need be.If the Russians send ships they need a carrier to ensure those ships are safe.- if so, it would be a lot cheaper to hire the Brazilian CV to escort them, or to deploy Tu-22M3Ms, MiG-31Ks, Su-30/34/35/57s, IL-478s & A-50/100s to Cuba/Venezuela.

    - then, there is no need to patrol them with CBGs; establishing trade links already been covered above.
    The carrier groups will be working the trade routes to drum up new trade and to reinforce existing ties... it will essentially be patrolling them anyway...-pipe dreams, until CVNs r built & activated. if land based aircraft in Africa & L. America r not enough, need be, they could send NP icebreakers towing floating airfields.

    Do u know why their rich don't want to invest there? A: because they want to fleece it instead & the legal system isn't set up to favor private ownership & small/medium business enterprise.
    I would say decades under the US their legal systems are already skewed in favour of people with deep pockets, but up until recently the US was actively keeping foreigners out of its backyard with all sorts of threats and incentives like no access to the huge rich US market if you try to enter central and south american markets. - not relevant: Russia should fix her own problems before trying to compete with Anglo-Saxons who used the Axis to kill up to 42Ms of Soviets in WWII.

    - he is not a VP anymore & has more power.
    Nothing has actually changed... he is the third US president to allow war crimes in Yemen...- unfortunately for Yemenis, they don't vote in the US elections.

    - for the same reason Mexico can't boycott the US even after loosing 1/2 of its territory. Ms of Mexicans & C. Americans live in the US & send $ to their relatives home, while many work South of the border at US owned/sponsored plants.
    US owned sweat shops in Mexico are a symptom of the disease, not part of the solution.
    - true, but politics is the art of the possible; the US was never known as a charity. Nevertheless, This could be a busy month for Democratic lawmakers when it comes to immigration reform. They're hoping to resurface a series of bills that would legalize undocumented immigrants and get those bills on the House floor before April 1. If they meet that deadline, lawmakers could avoid having to go through committee again. The bills would grant legal status to thousands of undocumented farmworkers and address immigrants who came to the US illegally as children. Biden is also pursuing a sweeping bill known as the US Citizenship Act that tackles the whole US immigration system and seeks to legalize millions of undocumented immigrants already in the US. CNN
    GarryB
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    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 32 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  GarryB Tue Mar 02, 2021 9:44 am

    There was no such thing as an aircraft carrier when the agreement on transiting the Bosphorus straights was written

    There was no such thing as a Russian or Soviet aircraft carrier and no plans to build one.

    - true, they have reasons to keep the Adm. K there & send out & bring it back, if need be.

    There are no facilities in the Black Sea in Russian territory to base her or any support vessels.

    And no reason to have her there.

    The Med. Sea consists of several smaller seas,

    The med sea is a toilet that Europe constantly empties its bowels into. No need for Russian carriers there at all... just like no need for Russian diplomats in the EU... just send them all to Washington and get it from the original source.

    - if the US had economic or geopolitical/mil. reasons, CVNs would be based in their Mexican Gulf coast too. All semi-closed seas r part of the World Ocean, & Russia has no luxury of long ice-free temperate coastlines that is not remote like Kola & Kamchatka.

    So the US doens't site one or two of its many many carriers in places where they don't need them is somehow to translate that Russia should keep its only carrier in a stupid place where it is not allowed to have it but also doesn't need it either.

    Why are we still discussing this?

    .- local conflicts in the BS/Med./IO r more likely than in the Barens/Japan Sea.

    The lack of lots of new ships in the Black Sea suggests otherwise.

    .- I doubt it. They'll need at least 3 in each fleet to have 2 ready 24/7/365.

    Bullshit... their ships can still operate without a carrier.... they are just much better defended and protected when there is air cover and airborne early warning... if there is no CV available then they could use the second helicopter carrier with four long range drones and 16 helicopters... make four of the helicopters Ka-31s and operate them continuously... not as effective as a fixed wing carrier but better than nothing until the real thing can get there.

    Besides, Russia has no vital interests to defend in the areas where the USN/AF &/ their allied forces can reach long before her surface VMF can.

    But it is exactly those places that are desperate for an alternative to US and western trade, because the US and the west are suffocating them.

    Russian people will suffer if Russia doesn't trade with other countries; they'll have shortages, empty shelves & high prices, just like in the Soviet times.

    That is exactly why they need a navy to ensure international global trade reaches Russia... or do you think the western navies are honourable and would help out instead...

    - all that won't generate big earnings on the world market, esp. since L. America is so remote. At best, it'll mostly help the local economy save them $ on imports.

    What big earnings... both sides can make comfortable livings and bypass having to trade through monsters like the west... a real win win... just not for the west.

    - the L. Americans can demand technology transfers like the Chinese did.

    You can't make demands to start out with... you have to get the contracts and the deals first... which means being nice and flexible or they will go with someone cheaper...

    Based on what can they demand technology transfers?

    If they can manage the Panama Canal & local production, they can manage new plants producing everything from A to Z. Labor costs there will be a lot le$$ & future profit margins will justify investing there.

    Not if they are demanding technology transfers... with technology transfers why would they need the foreign investment... they could do it all themselves and keep all the profit.

    - it's not too late, & won't be for decades to come.

    You can tell yourself that all you want but your record is clear and your record for change is pathetic and very unsuccessful....

    The talk of the missile gap and the bomber gap in the 1960s... Kennedy could have admitted such a gap never actually existed... well actually they did but they were in favour of the west by a large margin... he could have cancelled all the big weapon programmes to close the missile and bomber gap on the Soviet Union where the US already had a large advantage, but instead they changed goals... instead of trying to achieve parity for balance they wanted supremacy so they could try a first strike to take out the enemies nuclear capacity and then dictate terms. Obviously a history scholar because Russia has a long terms of giving up very easily... unconditional surrender is actually their thing... NOT.

    -if he was so insignificant, why send him to max. security prison?

    To limit access to the west of what is clearly a western agent and 5th columnist.

    He reminds me of the Maximus in the Gladiator movie who survived his execution & won all the battles in the arena before his final fight with Commodus.

    Never seen it... did they use Novachok?

    - they'll need to spend $Bs on TAKR/CVNs & their visits. L. America isn't Japan & China of the mid 1800s, & there r no markets to be opened with gunboat diplomacy.

    Russia is not the imperial force in this situation... they are the liberators...

    - they still failed, & I doubt the US will prevail in that.

    They always fail, but that does not matter... for every Venezuela or Bolivia they try to crush and make suffer a dozen other countries are watching and thinking... what censored censored censored the Americans are... they are ruthless censored who will murder anyone who crosses them... which is exactly the message the US sends by murdering Iranian generals on missions of peace and funding and supporting child killing terrorists around the world...

    - it can be taken anytime,

    Bay of Pigs... if it could have been done it would have... Castro is the Putin of the region, but with a much smaller country his success has been restricted to keeping the western censored out... which is quite an achievement on its own of course.

    The US can't even beat the Taleban it created and armed and supported... it has been almost 20 years and tens of billions of dollars wasted in Afghanistan and it is still broken.

    If you had left it to the Soviets they might have a functioning country by now...

    - the littoral navies r building up & outsiders regularly visit adding oil to the fire; Russia can't just sit with folded arms & watch.

    In 2 years time one Yasen class SSGN could sink any 32 HATO ships you care to pick with quite a reasonable level of certainty... Russia is not the one with the problem.

    World domination for 30 years and the only superpower left and what does the US have to show for it... infrastructure broken... putting 1970s era fighters back in to production because the new ones are broken, new littoral ships are a disaster and are being replaced by an Italian frigate that looks rather like the frigate the Russians are making, the US destroyer is a terrible expensive joke and its newest and best carrier is a helicopter barge. the US has ripped up most international deals it was a part of and its use of its dollar and sanctions as weapons have seriously weakened the US dollar and trust in the country around the world.

    I would say you hope to get Putin replaced in Russia to make him available to take over in the US and start to fix all your problems for you, but I doubt he would take on the job... I think he stopped caring about the west... he has always thought of Russian interests and like you and a lot of other morons thought Russias future is in partnership with the west... but the west doesn't share power so that illusion has now faded thank goodness and so western calls to remove him have intensified... not that they were ever listened to before of course.

    - how r the past & future Tu-160 & smaller ships visits any less effective?

    Too short... and not very impressive... New Zealand could send a corvette to visit countries around the world... also would not make a great impression either.

    they could send hospital ships instead, like china did, with more positive impact

    Hospital ships and trade delegations could easily be included in subsequent visits... the first visit to make contact could determine the reaction and future of relations with that country. Not all countries are brave enough to embrace better economic tie with Russia or China and risk a backlash from the big bully child America.

    Japan & Taiwan have trade links with them w/o any naval visits.

    Russia is neither Americas bitch nor Chinas nemesis...

    - only if/when they start building TAKR/CVNs; they won't be sending the Adm. K that far.

    They need to practise operations away from Russia for long periods of time because that is what the admiral K is for.

    - desires change, & Ukraine has her former lands that r larger than Crimea with mostly ethnic Russians there.

    Desires do change... lines on maps not so much.

    - if so, it would be a lot cheaper to hire the Brazilian CV to escort them, or to deploy Tu-22M3Ms, MiG-31Ks, Su-30/34/35/57s, IL-478s & A-50/100s to Cuba/Venezuela.

    Neither option is remotely likely or possible.

    -pipe dreams, until CVNs r built & activated. if land based aircraft in Africa & L. America r not enough, need be, they could send NP icebreakers towing floating airfields.

    Love the way you dismiss what I say as a pipedream and then propose some whack crap even a junkie on weed would be embarrassed to suggest as an option.

    Floating airfields... so you are saying aircraft carriers are necessary... that is a start.

    - not relevant: Russia should fix her own problems before trying to compete with Anglo-Saxons who used the Axis to kill up to 42Ms of Soviets in WWII.

    Russias main problem is that her traditional trade market and partners are now hostile HATO or HATO Wannabes that would rather stab themselves in the face than trade with Russia.... that is fine... the solution is simple.... find other countries to trade with that are not such salty censored .

    Obvious solution... build up not just your navy but also your international shipping fleet and start trading with countries that would like to develop economically and are not afraid of what the west might say.

    The stronger the Russian Navy becomes the easier it will be for countries to ignore the tantrums from the US and EU over trading with Russia.

    - unfortunately for Yemenis, they don't vote in the US elections.

    I am sure a lot of them thank god they don't have to put up with morons like Biden or Trump or Obama or Bush...



    - true, but politics is the art of the possible; the US was never known as a charity.

    Americas policy has always been that Charity begins at home... so foreign aid is huge loans with crippling interest rates and money that can only be spent on US goods and services...

    Biden is also pursuing a sweeping bill known as the US Citizenship Act that tackles the whole US immigration system and seeks to legalize millions of undocumented immigrants already in the US.

    Awesome... is his solution to high murder rates to legalise murder too?
    Tsavo Lion
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    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 32 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion Tue Mar 02, 2021 9:11 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    There was no such thing as a Russian or Soviet aircraft carrier and no plans to build one.- there were plans before WWII, but they were shelved.

    - true, they have reasons to keep the Adm. K there & send out & bring it back, if need be.
    There are no facilities in the Black Sea in Russian territory to base her or any support vessels.-it was based there before USSR imploded, it could be based there again, with expanded facilities.
    And no reason to have her there.- the other locations r less suitable. The CV-16/17 have no operational/safety reason to be homeported on the Yellow Sea & a CVN in Japan instead of Guam or Hawaii too.

    The Med. Sea consists of several smaller seas, .. only if/when they start building TAKR/CVNs; they won't be sending the Adm. K that far.
    They need to practise operations away from Russia for long periods of time because that is what the admiral K is for.
    The med sea is a toilet that Europe constantly empties its bowels into. No need for Russian carriers there at all...- it's still remote & complicated enough to be trained in against real targets & is similar to the Carribbean & the SC Sea.

    - if the US had economic or geopolitical/mil. reasons, CVNs would be based in their Mexican Gulf coast too. All semi-closed seas r part of the World Ocean, & Russia has no luxury of long ice-free temperate coastlines that is not remote like Kola & Kamchatka.
    So the US doens't site one or two of its many many carriers in places where they don't need them is somehow to translate that Russia should keep its only carrier in a stupid place where it is not allowed to have it but also doesn't need it either.- as the BS nation, she's allowed to have even 10 TAKRs there if she wanted too.

    Why are we still discussing this?- so far u failed to defeat me in an argument. ur Western/NZ logic isn't working against my E. European/Jewish logic.

    .- local conflicts in the BS/Med./IO r more likely than in the Barens/Japan Sea.
    The lack of lots of new ships in the Black Sea suggests otherwise.- they r going to increase their #; the BS won't be a backwater forever, just like the Yellow Sea.

    Besides, Russia has no vital interests to defend in the areas where the USN/AF &/ their allied forces can reach long before her surface VMF can.
    But it is exactly those places that are desperate for an alternative to US and western trade, because the US and the west are suffocating them.-tough shit! I'm truly sorry for them! unless they can pay for her CBGs, Russia shouldn't be sticking her neck out for them, for her own good.

    Russian people will suffer if Russia doesn't trade with other countries; they'll have shortages, empty shelves & high prices, just like in the Soviet times.
    That is exactly why they need a navy to ensure international global trade reaches Russia... or do you think the western navies are honourable and would help out instead...- such trade can be stifled with financial sanctions & selective enforcement; even the USN can't be everywhere at all times. The TAKRN/CVNs will then be like those useless Ming era giant junks that were dismantled after just 7 expeditions to E. Africa.

    - the L. Americans can demand technology transfers like the Chinese did.

    You can't make demands to start out with... you have to get the contracts and the deals first... which means being nice and flexible or they will go with someone cheaper...Based on what can they demand technology transfers?- on their cheap labor & favorable tax rates.

    If they can manage the Panama Canal & local production, they can manage new plants producing everything from A to Z. Labor costs there will be a lot le$$ & future profit margins will justify investing there.
    Not if they are demanding technology transfers... with technology transfers why would they need the foreign investment... they could do it all themselves and keep all the profit.-the USSR, Japan & China did it with success & now the latter is the 2nd economy.

    -if he was so insignificant, why send him to max. security prison?
    To limit access to the west of what is clearly a western agent and 5th columnist.- any prison or a portion within it can be closed for visits; it's Putin's revenge & to break his will. Sakharov was exiled to a closed city & watched 24/7, with no contact with the West for all those years.

    He reminds me of Maximus in the Gladiator movie who survived his execution & won all the battles in the arena before his final fight with Commodus. 
    Never seen it... did they use Novachok?- the Romans used different poisons then, but even Commodus in the plot was above that; sadly, u can't even have an informed discussion mentioning a film with NZ star in it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTmlYKiLBHI

    - they'll need to spend $Bs on TAKR/CVNs & their visits. L. America isn't Japan & China of the mid 1800s, & there r no markets to be opened with gunboat diplomacy.
    Russia is not the imperial force in this situation... they are the liberators...- they should start with liberating themselves 1st.

    - it can be taken anytime,
    Bay of Pigs... if it could have been done it would have... Castro is the Putin of the region, but with a much smaller country his success has been restricted to keeping the western censored  out... which is quite an achievement on its own of course.- Kennedy didn't support it; Bush invaded Panama & imprisoned Noriega.

    The US can't even beat the Taleban it created and armed and supported... it has been almost 20 years and tens of billions of dollars wasted in Afghanistan and it is still broken.- don't compare land locked Islamic Afghanistan that buried a few empires with Catholic & Socialist Cuba. The 1st sound a Pashtun boy hears is the gunfire celebrating his birth.

    If you had left it to the Soviets they might have a functioning country by now...- it wouldn't be viable after the USSR implosion.

    ..like you and a lot of other morons -watch ur language!

    - how r the past & future Tu-160 & smaller ships visits any less effective?
    Too short... and not very impressive...- they could station smaller ships there like those in Tartus.

    Japan & Taiwan have trade links with them w/o any naval visits.
    Russia is neither Americas bitch nor Chinas nemesis...-that's why they were both declared as US adversaries. As such, they won't allowed to feel completely at home in L. America. The USN can have ships & aircraft in Puerto Rico, Honduras, Colombia or Chile like it has them in Spain, Bahrain, & Japan.

    - desires change, & Ukraine has her former lands that r larger than Crimea with mostly ethnic Russians there.
    Desires do change... lines on maps not so much.- the Dnieper river may form a new line soon.

    - if so, it would be a lot cheaper to hire the Brazilian CV to escort them, or to deploy Tu-22M3Ms, MiG-31Ks, Su-30/34/35/57s, IL-478s & A-50/100s to Cuba/Venezuela.
    Neither option is remotely likely or possible.-why not? they r the 1st 2 letters in BRICS. & Russian crews could get some training time on it as well. win-win & 2 for the price of 1!

    -pipe dreams, until CVNs r built & activated. if land based aircraft in Africa & L. America r not enough, need be, they could send NP icebreakers towing floating airfields.
    Love the way you dismiss what I say as a pipedream and then propose some whack crap even a junkie on weed would be embarrassed to suggest as an option.- w/o improvising, they wouldn't have won most, if not all, of their wars.
    Floating airfields... so you are saying aircraft carriers are necessary... that is a start.- no, but those airfields that could be 2-3x Nimitz/Ford class r even better, for fraction of their cost & time spent to build, test & outfit them, not to mention a "helicopter carrier with four long range drones and 16 helicopters...". Unlike the NP icebreakers, TAKRN/CVNs can't break thick ice & tow big ships in the Arctic/Antarctic; the former can earn their upkeep helping the economy by keeping NSR operating & ships safe, while the latter good at wasting $ on their upkeep & during ops.

    - not relevant: Russia should fix her own problems before trying to compete with Anglo-Saxons who used the Axis to kill up to 42Ms of Soviets in WWII.
    Russias main problem is that her traditional trade market and partners are now hostile HATO or HATO Wannabes that would rather stab themselves in the face than trade with Russia.... that is fine... the solution is simple.... find other countries to trade with that are not such salty censored .Obvious solution... build up not just your navy but also your international shipping fleet and start trading with countries that would like to develop economically and are not afraid of what the west might say. The stronger the Russian Navy becomes the easier it will be for countries to ignore the tantrums from the US and EU over trading with Russia.- sell them S-400/500s & other defensive arms on credit instead; after they get rich with trade, sell them offensive arms, so they can warn/fight off those the VMF would have to warn/fight off otherwise.

    - unfortunately for Yemenis, they don't vote in the US elections.
    I am sure a lot of them thank god they don't have to put up with morons like Biden or Trump or Obama or Bush...- the former Soviet & American morons fueled their past & present civil wars, with local morons fighting for power & killing each other.   

    Biden is also pursuing a sweeping bill known as the US Citizenship Act that tackles the whole US immigration system and seeks to legalize millions of undocumented immigrants already in the US.
    Awesome... is his solution to high murder rates to legalise murder too?
    this opening of the safety valve will release a lot of built up steam & at least correct many wrongs. OT!


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:49 am; edited 2 times in total
    runaway
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    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 32 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  runaway Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:11 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:Nice pics.  Good to see the old girl up on the blocks thumbsup

    I guess we can put to bed any stupid suggetions from the Kuznetsov-haters that she is a pile of junk and will never return to service?  Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

    Yes good news, do we know if she is keeping the SSM´s or will she enlarge the airwing instead?
    About the airwing, is the SU33 still in service or will she have only MiG-29K?
    GarryB
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    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 32 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  GarryB Wed Mar 03, 2021 10:40 am

    .- there were plans before WWII, but they were shelved.

    There was little to no chance of plans for an aircraft carrier before 1936... and considering the terms of the agreement it is rather unlikely they would make plans after agreeing not to sail aircraft carriers through the straights.

    -it was based there before USSR imploded, it could be based there again, with expanded facilities.

    If it was based in the Ukraine then it would be Ukrainian now because it was commissioned in 1991...

    - the other locations r less suitable.

    She has been based in the Northern Fleet since she entered operational service with the Russian Navy.

    She deployed to the med a few times but never went to the Black Sea.... she was always based in Murmansk.

    Why are they going to change that now?

    .- it's still remote & complicated enough to be trained in against real targets & is similar to the Carribbean & the SC Sea.

    Why would Russian ships care about training in conditions similar to the Carribbean or south china sea?

    Why not go to those locations for training instead of finding somewhere like that?

    I am sure they could organise a training exercise with China where the Russians pretend to be the bad guys attacking Chinese islands to steal them, and China and Russia can work together to learn how to attack small islands and how to defend small islands... so much useful information for each to learn and share with each other. Could be a good opportunity for Russia to perhaps highlight some defence equipment they make that might help the Chinese better defend their islands from foreign aggression.

    as the BS nation, she's allowed to have even 10 TAKRs there if she wanted too.

    So if she can and if it is so convenient and useful... why hasn't she?

    - so far u failed to defeat me in an argument. ur Western/NZ logic isn't working against my E. European/Jewish logic.

    Of course... how can any human logic match head in the sand stubbornness... and bloody mindedness...

    But I don't need to change your mind or convince you.... the proof will be in the pudding... they have announced plans of expanding at Severmorsk... but not at Sevastopol...

    They are running out of time if they want to base the Kuz in the BS.

    - they r going to increase their #; the BS won't be a backwater forever, just like the Yellow Sea.

    Of course they will increase ship numbers across the board, but I think you will find the BS remains a bit of a backwater... they will get corvettes and frigates and perhaps even half a dozen destroyers that will likely spend most of their time in Tartus and operating in the Med, but they wont have cruisers or helicopter carriers.

    It will be the modified Ivan Grens that will likely be based there and the med, while the new 40K ton helicopter carriers will likely go to the Pacific and Northern fleets.

    -tough shit! I'm truly sorry for them! unless they can pay for her CBGs, Russia shouldn't be sticking her neck out for them, for her own good.

    Trade with those and other countries will more than fund their purchase and operating costs... cut off trade or give up trade and you wont be able to afford much at all.

    - such trade can be stifled with financial sanctions & selective enforcement;

    Not really... sanctions only work against countries you have good ties with... sanctions are literally breaking ties you rely on for your normal survival as pressure to make you change. Like banning you from the local supermarket and make you drive two hours to the next closest one.

    Sanctions against small countries can be compensated with more trade from Russia... if the US threatens to sanction a small country by blocking food imports or exports then Russia can offer to help the country either by providing or buying the foods or using their naval trade links to deliver their food products to other markets... they might even get a better price and end up better off.

    even the USN can't be everywhere at all times.

    They can't, but they don't need to be normally... they are not a phone company that needs to provide 24/7 coverage... they provide a service, and one that the US president seems to appreciate... they are certainly spending a lot of money to ensure the service is available...

    But no guarantees it will be there instantly because you never know where it will be needed.

    The TAKRN/CVNs will then be like those useless Ming era giant junks that were dismantled after just 7 expeditions to E. Africa.

    That is like saying all 5th gen fighters are useless expensive crap because the F-22 and F-35 are. Well Russia designed a different aircraft with different features and with different goals and it seems they made some very good choices and the resulting product is vastly superior to what the US came up with... despite them being 40 years ahead of Russia in everything and being able to afford over priced crap.

    - on their cheap labor & favorable tax rates.

    There are dozens of other countries with cheap labour and are happy to reduce tax rates to get foreign investment and production facilities built in their countries... any that are making technology transfer demands will not make the interview list.

    -Japan & China did it with success & now the latter is the 2nd economy.

    Japan was once a source of cheaply made western consumer crap, but their personal pride in craftsmanship and attention to detail led to them going for quality and precision and they turned away from the cheap shit market and captured the quality market.

    I remember in the early 1980s european cars were terrible... you drive the car 10,000kms and you needed to replace bearings and seals and points... bloody awful. The early Japanese cars were awful too... probably because they were copying western stuff, but by the mid to late 1980s the Jap imports were impressive... they had excellent engines and headlights that were amazing. I went from driving a MkIV Ford Cortina... you turned on the headlights at night and saw two pale fuzzy glowing spots... it was no accident that they always had "sports lights" added and even then they were ordinary. I got a hell of a shock when I drove my first Japanese car... a Toyota... the lights were amazing I could not drive the older car at night after that...

    The point is that they started copying the western stuff but ended up making much better cars, not to mention optics and milling machines etc etc...

    China is on the verge of essentially doing the same but still catering for the cheap consumer market, though I suspect big powerful western companies will want to shift somewhere with cheaper labour but Chinese companies have grown and can now compete with these big western companies... they created a monster... which is good for the rest of the world.

    - any prison or a portion within it can be closed for visits; it's Putin's revenge & to break his will. Sakharov was exiled to a closed city & watched 24/7, with no contact with the West for years.

    Even if that were true, so what. He is actively cooperating with foreign intelligence agencies and foreign governments... lock him up and have a go at breaking him... the Americans kept Maria Butina in solitary confinement 23 hours a day... I would say she would love to get the treatment Navalny is getting.

    - the Romans used different poisons then, but even Commodus in the plot was above that; sadly, u can't even have an informed discussion mentioning a film with NZ star in it.

    You mean Russell Crowe... he was born in NZ but he is essentially an Aussie... He never visits NZ AFAIK...

    - they should start with liberating themselves 1st .

    They have... which is why Brussels and Washington are so twitchy about it because they have no control over Russia and it bothers them... what if other countries escape from under the thumb... the UK left Brussels, but are still under Washingtons thumb so that is OK.

    - Kennedy didn't support it;

    Kennedy didn't support it because he knew it would be a bloodbath because the people were against them.

    - don't compare land locked Islamic Afghanistan that buried a few empires with Catholic & Socialist Cuba. The 1st sound a Pashtun boy hears is the gunfire celebrating his birth.

    US fails in both places... very comparable... the US has interests which have nothing to do with making life and living better for the people of either of those countries so of course they are going to fail in both cases because their invasions and attacks are not to save the people... normally it is about money and not for those people either.

    The US could have given everyone in Afghanistan 50K US dollars and told them to put down their guns and just work together and it would have saved them billions of dollars. In fact when a US soldier points a Javelin missile at a light truck he could instead go down to the guy in the truck and say.... look, I could kill you with this missile or I could give you 200K US dollars to just walk off the battlefield and go home to your family and forget about fighting Americans... and he probably would have saved 300K US dollars and have an Afghan family happy to have their son and father back in one piece...

    - it wouldn't be viable after the USSR implosion.

    You mean like Vietnam wouldn't be viable?

    Sounds like they are doing just fine... the Afghans could have reverted to a form of democracy... whatever they wanted...

    -watch ur language!

    I stand by what I said... which was...

    . he has always thought of Russian interests and like you and a lot of other morons thought Russias future is in partnership with the west...

    Only a moron would think the west would welcome Russia as an equal partner and treat her with respect and build her up to her potential... look at history... the only times the west builds up countries is to form them into battering rams to be used against the next villain... when the Soviet Union collapsed there was no new tangible state based villain that warranted a strong country to provide cannon fodder material so Russia was never going to be allowed to recover... in fact what they have done (they being the US) is use a rising Russia to face off against the EU to prevent the dream of Gorby and Putin of a euroasian super state from Vladivostok to Portugal.

    Never going to happen because the US would no longer be incontrol... with Russia involved Brussels wouldn't be in control either... it could not be allowed... only a moron would think it was a possibility... which is what I said.

    - they could station smaller ships there like in Tartus.

    So copy imperial america and build ports all round the world.... that might be seized in one election cycle...

    -that's why they were both declared as US adversaries

    They are only adversaries to the US because the US makes them so... pretty dumb of the US to pick them as enemies considering either has the nuclear weapons capacity to obliterate the US... they should pick the Girl Scouts... much easier to beat...

    As such, they won't allowed to feel completely at home in L. America.

    I suspect the US calling them the enemy is likely to be the best endorsement possible in some countries used to US hospitality...

    The USN can have ships & aircraft in Puerto Rico, Honduras, Colombia or Chile like it has them in Spain, Bahrain, SK & Japan.

    I think you are confusing Russia with the US and the west... Russia does not care if its allies and trade partners choose to also trade with the west.... it is the west that objects to competition.... maybe they know their offers are inferior and cannot compete in a fair competition...

    - the Dnieper river may form a new line soon.

    For the Ukraine, but I doubt Russia wants any part of that country.

    -why not? they r the 1st 2 letters in BRICS. & Russian crews could get some training time on it as well. win-win & 2 for the price of 1!

    Perhaps you don't understand the concept of defence.... the MiG-31Ks are to defend Russia... they would be pretty vulnerable and useless out in the middle of some central or south American country without the IADS that protects them in Russian airspace.

    The cost of setting up IADS in every country in central and south America would make the price of a few carrier groups look cheap.

    Though if they want to buy that as part of their development then I am sure Russia will sell them the appropriate systems and equipment and show them how to use it.

    unlike the NP icebreakers, CVNs can't break thick ice/tow big ships;

    They are not getting French or UK CVNs... they are making them for themselves... so they know how to make them ice resistant and ice capable... but why do you think they would need to tow anything?

    better then a " helicopter carrier with four long range drones and 16 helicopters...

    A helicopter carrier with four heavy drones and more helicopters would be a valuable addition to the 1,000 naval infantry and their armour and artillery support on the other helicopter carrier in a landing, but it really wouldn't mean you wouldn't need a fixed wing aircraft carrier with fighters and AWACS platforms to protect the ground forces from enemy aircraft etc.

    - sell them S-400/500s & other defensive arms on credit instead; after they get rich with trade, sell them offensive arms.

    Russia could sell them all sorts of things but you have to be deluded to think that all and every country Russia will be trading with can afford enough S-400s to defend themselves from a HATO attack force. The real world just isn't like that... there are no magic weapons. Russian carrier groups and training will be a much bigger part of why that HATO attack force is never sent to that country.

    .- the older Soviet & American morons fueled their past & present civil wars, with local morons fighting for power & killing each other.

    Idiots and assholes and morons everywhere... sometimes with good intentions, but most often the good intentions are the spin guys words to justify the real reasons of more money and more oil and more control.... or to stop the rival from achieving any of those goals. The US campaign in Syria has nothing to do with fighting ISIS... they have agreements with those child murderers that lets them operate in the territory they control... it isn't about fighting terrorism and they have actually shown some honesty too and said it is about stopping Russia from getting a win and denying oil revenue to Assad to prevent him rebuilding the country the west helped to destroy.

    this opening of the safety valve will release a lot of unneeded built up steam & at least correct many wrongs.

    Or sends a message that if enough people jump the queue then there is no reason standing in line in the queue and doing the right things.... take what you want and pretend to be sorry when you are caught to make them look like the bad guys because you tried to sneak into another country with children...


    Yes good news, do we know if she is keeping the SSM´s or will she enlarge the airwing instead?
    About the airwing, is the SU33 still in service or will she have only MiG-29K?

    That is a myth... the missile area will be heavily fire walled and protected and isolated from the internal aircraft hangar... I very much doubt they could just take the missiles out and remove the tubes and extend the hangar and fit more aircraft in there..

    The wings on the Su-33 actually double fold and so the Su-33 is actually rather compact when folded up. The MiG is slightly smaller but not as much as you might think.

    It is not just a case of fitting aircraft in there.... you have to be able to shuffle them around and get the aircraft you want out of there too so you can't stack them nice and tight only to find the helicopters you need are right at the back so you have to take 10 fighters out onto the deck via the deck lifts to get the helicopter you need out.

    Most of the time aircraft will sit on the deck so the hangar is not too congested and they can take aircraft apart and work on them if they need to...
    medo
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    Post  medo Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:38 pm

    runaway wrote:About the airwing, is the SU33 still in service or will she have only MiG-29K?

    Good question. MiG-29K was supposed to replace Su-33, but NAVY likes Su-33 more than MiG-29K and want to modernize them. Most probably MiG-29K regiment will be serving on carrier deck and if needed they will add a group of Su-33. Years ago NAVY planed, that Su-33 will serve from ground airbases and considering that Northern Fleet control whole Arctic region, there will be enough airbases for Su-33 to be stationed there on duty.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Wed Mar 03, 2021 8:49 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    .- there were plans before WWII, but they were shelved.
    There was little to no chance of plans for an aircraft carrier before 1936... and considering the terms of the agreement it is rather unlikely they would make plans after agreeing not to sail aircraft carriers through the straights.-even if not before 1936, if they did agree not to sail them there, they weren't going to basethem in the BS.

    -it was based there before USSR imploded, it could be based there again, with expanded facilities.
    If it was based in the Ukraine then it would be Ukrainian now because it was commissioned in 1991...- it was at anchorage off Sevastopol & left at night during the division of BSF with Ukraine & sailed to Kola so it won't be lost to the RF VMF like Yaryag later was.

    - the other locations r less suitable.
    She has been based in the Northern Fleet since she entered operational service with the Russian Navy. She deployed to the med a few times but never went to the Black Sea.... she was always based in Murmansk. Why are they going to change that now? - I explained the reasons many times; not sure if it will happen, but it might.

    .- it's still remote & complicated enough to be trained in against real targets & is similar to the Carribbean & the SC Sea.
    Why would Russian ships care about training in conditions similar to the Carribbean or south china sea?- so they can operate in adverse tropical weather & contested space. Those seas r the Med. Sea of L. America & SE Asia.

    Why not go to those locations for training instead of finding somewhere like that?- to save $ & time. The USN CV/Ns been training off Puerto Rico & San Clemente for years before going on deployments into Med. Sea, PG & the W. Pac.

    I am sure they could organise a training exercise with China where the Russians pretend to be the bad guys attacking Chinese islands to steal them, and China and Russia can work together to learn how to attack small islands and how to defend small islands... so much useful information for each to learn and share with each other. Could be a good opportunity for Russia to perhaps highlight some defence equipment they make that might help the Chinese better defend their islands from foreign aggression.- sure, but only if the Adm. K/new TAKR/CVN r homeported in the RFE.

    as the BS nation, she's allowed to have even 10 TAKRs there if she wanted too.
    So if she can and if it is so convenient and useful... why hasn't she?- FYI, the Soviet VMF was in a different geopolitical situation & Crimea was in Ukraine till 2014.

    - so far u failed to defeat me in an argument. ur Western/NZ logic isn't working against my E. European/Jewish logic.
    Of course... how can any human logic match head in the sand stubbornness... and bloody mindedness...- u don't know about many related things, & refuse to read/watch relevant materials, so it's ur head that is in the sand.
    But I don't need to change your mind or convince you.... the proof will be in the pudding... they have announced plans of expanding at Severmorsk... but not at Sevastopol...- they can expand there too if the new Novorossiysk base isn't enough.
    They are running out of time if they want to base the Kuz in the BS.-& money too.

    - they r going to increase their #; the BS won't be a backwater forever, just like the Yellow Sea.
    Of course they will increase ship numbers across the board, but I think you will find the BS remains a bit of a backwater...-fit for the old Adm. K that will be mostly used for training & parades. The VKS/NAF planes,& BSF subs/ships can also use it to train for operations against LHA/D/CVNs.

    - such trade can be stifled with financial sanctions & selective enforcement;
    Not really... sanctions only work against countries you have good ties with...-they also trade with many others & if financial sanctions r imposed, that trade will stop.

    The TAKRN/CVNs will then be like those useless Ming era giant junks that were dismantled after just 7 expeditions to E. Africa.
    That is like saying all 5th gen fighters are useless expensive crap because the F-22 and F-35 are. - don't compare ships with planes. Russia can't afford to refit all her CGNs & Typhoon SSBNs; if she could, she could use all of them.

    - on their cheap labor & favorable tax rates.
    There are dozens of other countries with cheap labour and are happy to reduce tax rates to get foreign investment and production facilities built in their countries... any that are making technology transfer demands will not make the interview list.- there r other incentives & bribes r effective negotiation tools. L. America can offer cocaine worth $Ms as payment for the tech transfer or make her narcobarons to pay for it.

    -Japan & China did it with success & now the latter is the 2nd economy.
    Japan was once a source of cheaply made western consumer crap, but their personal pride in craftsmanship and attention to detail led to them going for quality and precision and they turned away from the cheap shit market and captured the quality market.- they also added value to their electronics, watches & cars, outcompeting every1 in there.

    - any prison or a portion within it can be closed for visits; it's Putin's revenge & to break his will. Sakharov was exiled to a closed city & watched 24/7, with no contact with the West for years.
    Even if that were true, so what. He is actively cooperating with foreign intelligence agencies and foreign governments...- in the same way Lenin was. Both r self made men who worked to unseat despots but who's man support was/is within the country.

    - they should start with liberating themselves 1st .
    They have... which is why Brussels and Washington are so twitchy about it because they have no control over Russia and it bothers them... - the question is, will they survive on their own for long before the USSR-type implosion? that empire lasted for only for 7 decades, & the RF has less resources & population.

    - Kennedy didn't support it;
    Kennedy didn't support it because he knew it would be a bloodbath because the people were against them.- no, his AF messed up with timing & he wasn't enthusiastic about it from the start. Today, invading Cuba would be a combined op. that won't take more than a few weeks to complete.

    - don't compare land locked Islamic Afghanistan that buried a few empires with Catholic & Socialist Cuba. The 1st sound a Pashtun boy hears is the gunfire celebrating his birth.
    US fails in both places... very comparable... the US has interests which have nothing to do with making life and living better for the people of either of those countries so of course they are going to fail in both cases because their invasions and attacks are not to save the people... normally it is about money and not for those people either. The US could have given everyone in Afghanistan 50K US dollars and told them to put down their guns and just work together and it would have saved them billions of dollars. - they won't sell their traditions & lifestyle; to them, not everything is about $; they want to be independent in their provinces & villages.

    - it wouldn't be viable after the USSR implosion.
    You mean like Vietnam wouldn't be viable?- no: it's not landlocked, had peace since 1979, & has better climate!.

    . he has always thought of Russian interests and like you and a lot of other morons thought Russias future is in partnership with the west...
    Only a moron would think the west would welcome Russia as an equal partner and treat her with respect and build her up to her potential... look at history... the only times the west builds up countries is to form them into battering rams to be used against the next villain... when the Soviet Union collapsed there was no new tangible state based villain that warranted a strong country to provide cannon fodder material so Russia was never going to be allowed to recover... in fact what they have done (they being the US) is use a rising Russia to face off against the EU to prevent the dream of Gorby and Putin of a euroasian super state from Vladivostok to Portugal. Never going to happen because the US would no longer be incontrol... with Russia involved Brussels wouldn't be in control either... it could not be allowed... only a moron would think it was a possibility... which is what I said.- Putin & his buddies got his embezzled $250Bs from & still invested in the West with Russia's stolen & sold resources, even though his offers of cooperation were rejected. I'm glad I'm not in that Ukrainian shithole anymore & only regret that didn't leave the USSR sooner.

    - they could station smaller ships there like in Tartus.
    So copy imperial america and build ports all round the world.... that might be seized in one election cycle...- in our real world, an empire w/o ports/bases overseas won't last long; u may call Russia by any other name but some1 must be an alfa male in a wolfpack. Humans r also social animals, & states form their own packs.

    -that's why they were both declared as US adversaries
    They are only adversaries to the US because the US makes them so... - & lately to NATO too, besides to many in the ASEAN, India, & Japan.

    As such, they won't allowed to feel completely at home in L. America.
    I suspect the US calling them the enemy is likely to be the best endorsement possible in some countries used to US hospitality...- they use term "adversary"; enemy is in actual shooting war.
    The USN can have ships & aircraft in Puerto Rico, Honduras, Colombia or Chile like it has them in Spain, Bahrain, SK & Japan.
    I think you are confusing Russia with the US and the west... Russia does not care if its allies and trade partners choose to also trade with the west.... it is the west that objects to competition.... maybe they know their offers are inferior and cannot compete in a fair competition...- with those forces in the region, Russia will have hard time conducting trade that would damage American interests. The US will be containing Russia & China everywhere & it'll be easiest to do in its own backyard.

    - the Dnieper river may form a new line soon.
    For the Ukraine, but I doubt Russia wants any part of that country.-
    if nothing else, it will to bring fresh water & more security to Crimea.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0jwy7Etc6k

    -why not? they r the 1st 2 letters in BRICS. & Russian crews could get some training time on it as well. win-win & 2 for the price of 1!
    Perhaps you don't understand the concept of defence.... the MiG-31Ks are to defend Russia... they would be pretty vulnerable and useless out in the middle of some central or south American country without the IADS that protects them in Russian airspace.- they may have S-400/500s & MiG-31Ms with them too.
    The cost of setting up IADS in every country in central and south America would make the price of a few carrier groups look cheap.- not every country, & the VMF ships will also have their AD to add.

    unlike the NP icebreakers, CVNs can't break thick ice/tow big ships;
    They are not getting French or UK CVNs... they are making them for themselves... so they know how to make them ice resistant and ice capable... but why do you think they would need to tow anything?- $/RBs r spent to build NP icebreakers & they could be armed & used as tugs for the floating airfields, saving $ on TAKR/CVNs. But if TAKR/CVNs r built, they won't be dual use & suitable as icebreakers.

    A helicopter carrier with four heavy drones and more helicopters would be a valuable addition to the 1,000 naval infantry and their armour and artillery support on the other helicopter carrier in a landing, but it really wouldn't mean you wouldn't need a fixed wing aircraft carrier with fighters and AWACS platforms to protect the ground forces from enemy aircraft etc.- big barges/converted ships/floating airfields could handle a lot more & larger aircraft, incl. Yak-44/KJ-600 size AWACS/CODs, An-12/26s, IL-112/276s, Mi-26/38s, & w/o catapults.

    - sell them S-400/500s & other defensive arms on credit instead; after they get rich with trade, sell them offensive arms.
    Russia could sell them all sorts of things but you have to be deluded to think that all and every country Russia will be trading with can afford enough S-400s to defend themselves from a HATO attack force. - they could be just deployed there as the Soviet PVO units were in Cuba, Egypt & Vietnam
    The real world just isn't like that... there are no magic weapons.  Russian carrier groups and training will be a much bigger part of why that HATO attack force is never sent to that country.- if so, there will be carrier gaps into which NATO will get in, unless the VMF keeps a CBG forward deployed there.
    you have to be able to shuffle them around and get the aircraft you want out of there too so you can't stack them nice and tight only to find the helicopters you need are right at the back so you have to take 10 fighters out onto the deck via the deck lifts to get the helicopter you need out.- all helos I saw on CV-63 that were brought to hangars were parked near the lifts.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:35 pm; edited 3 times in total
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:54 pm

    Tsavo, sorry if I ask, but could you please use the normal quote and /quote function to reply?

    It is not really "user friendly" to follow your posts where your reply is always the one in bold...
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Mar 04, 2021 5:54 am

    -even if not before 1936, if they did agree not to sail them there, they weren't going to basethem in the BS.

    they weren't going to base them in the BS.

    So essentially what you are saying is that while they had the massive shipyards in what is now the Ukraine, they never planned to base aircraft carriers in the Black Sea.

    So why can't you get that into your head?

    - it was at anchorage off Sevastopol & left at night during the division of BSF with Ukraine & sailed to Kola so it won't be lost to the RF VMF like Yaryag later was.

    But once it was operational it went to the Northern fleet where it stayed.

    - I explained the reasons many times; not sure if it will happen, but it might.

    Saying it might, when it hasn't and actually most likely wont is not a good basis for a belief.

    - so they can operate in adverse tropical weather & contested space. Those seas r the Med. Sea of L. America & SE Asia.

    Wouldn't it make more sense to actually sail to the locations it wants to experience and practise and train there... that could be part of the training in fact.

    - to save $ & time.

    Wont save money to have to refit the naval facilities in the Black Sea to base an aircraft carrier that has never been based there before in Russian territory.

    Pretty sure the Orcs wont let them park it where it was built.

    The USN CV/Ns been training off Puerto Rico & San Clemente for years before going on deployments into Med. Sea, PG & the W. Pac.

    What the US does is not relevant.

    - sure, but only if the Adm. K/new TAKR/CVN r homeported in the RFE.

    What is the RFE?

    The Kuznetsov is currently home ported in the Northern fleet... the new helicopter carriers are likely to be based in the Pacific fleet and Northern fleets too.

    Though by the sounds of things they seem to be making one a landing carrier and the other something else so they might base them together to compliment each other and work together.... having long range drones on one of them would greatly improve its ability to operate in the Arctic and monitor things there.

    But equally in places like the Pacific it could cover more area with drones.

    FYI, the Soviet VMF was in a different geopolitical situation & Crimea was in Ukraine till 2014.

    The only thing that has changed is ownership of Sevastopol... and I doubt there is room there for the Kuznetsov, let alone all the support ships it would need.

    Much more space in the Northern Fleet and Pacific Fleet.

    - u don't know about many related things, & refuse to read/watch relevant materials, so it's ur head that is in the sand.

    But clearly the things you think are related I can think are not. You keep mentioning things Russia should do and hold up what the USN does as a good reason to do so, but the goals and assets and options for the US are completely different... different enough to be irrelevant... and in fact more than that... different enough to make the wrong thing for Russia look like it could be the right thing.

    My head is not in the sand... if you can give me one good reason to support bottling the K up in the BS I am open to hearing it, but at the moment there are plenty of reasons past, present, and future to not base it there, that even one good reason wouldn't be enough to change my mind and the fact that you can't even come up with one good solid reason makes me feel happy with my position and reasoning.

    I understand that might frustrate you but perhaps you need to look harder at why you think the way you think.

    - they can expand there too if the new Novorossiysk base isn't enough.

    They can do anything. The fact that this ship is getting back into the water next year or the year after suggests work on upgrades and expansions should already have started.

    They have... but none in the Black Sea... if that does not answer your question then it is you with your head in the sand.

    -& money too.

    Ahhh, yes... the Russians are collapsing and there is no more money available... all I can say is wipe the sand from your eyes and come up for a breath.

    .-fit for the old Adm. K that will be mostly used for training & parades. The VKS/NAF planes,& BSF subs/ships can also use it to train for operations against LHA/D/CVNs.

    You are proving it is not worth discussing with you... training is not required for parades and keeping it for parades is useless.

    They are keeping it and upgrading it because it is a weapon of war and it will not go anywhere near the BS because they don't need carriers in the BS and the west can't get carriers into the BS anyway, so basing it there so the local forces can practise against a pretend enemy carrier group is actually dumb... you are clutching at straws.

    .-they also trade with many others & if financial sanctions r imposed, that trade will stop.

    Sanctions have thus far been self defeating... there is no reason to think they wont continue to be so.

    Russia can offer to fill in any shortfall any sanctions from the US might create... US sanctions have already made them self sufficient... and China makes most American stuff anyway.

    - don't compare ships with planes. Russia can't afford to refit all her CGNs & Typhoon SSBNs; if she could, she could use all of them.

    Even if Russia had all six Typhoons that could be upgraded and put into service they wouldn't... and the couldn't... each sub carries 20 missiles each with 10 warheads each... 6 Typh0ons would mean 1200 warheads just on these subs not including the Boreis they have in service let alone their Delta IVs... or their land based ICBMs and cruise missile carrying strategic bombers.

    They want smaller lighter cheaper newer subs and are in the process of getting them.

    - there r other incentives & bribes r effective negotiation tools. L. America can offer cocaine worth $Ms as payment for the tech transfer or make her narcobarons to pay for it.

    Normally the bribes go the other way once the companies are established and they want some changes made or some problems to go away.

    - they also added value to their electronics, watches & cars, outcompeting every1 in there.

    That is right, but China is catching up and they make cars too.

    - in the same way Lenin was. Both r self made men who worked to unseat despots but who's man support was/is within the country.

    Hey, you are right.... and another thing the same... both are mental censored who are going to try to break a system instead of fix it.... but the obvious difference is that Navalny is not even a thousandth the man Lenin was and has no chance with the next part that needs to happen... run back to Germany and wait till the Tsars are at their weakest... but his problem is that Russia under Putin is going from strength to strength so he will be waiting forever... and I don't think the Germans will let him stay that long cause even they don't like him.

    - the question is, will they survive on their own for long before the USSR-type implosion? that empire lasted for only for 7 decades, & the RF has less resources & population.

    I would say the Soviet Union failed because Russia was essentially carrying everyone and trying to promote an ideology around the world.

    Now they have nothing to push they can just do business and now they don't have to subsidise lower productive areas they can focus on sorting out their own problems and promoting their own companies and groups and actually succeed.

    If they wanted the Soviet Union back they could easily have taken steps in that direction, but they haven't... which suggests they realise how much it held them back.

    Sure some technologies went to other republics... but most technologies have now moved on... in some cases by several generations so starting fresh allows skipping ahead and getting better systems faster.

    Today, invading Cuba would be a combined op. that won't take more than a few weeks to complete.

    The hint of the violation of that treaty would allow them to get nuclear weapons from Russia, which would stop any invasion in its tracks.

    During the Cuban Missile crisis they had FROGs with nuclear armed warheads sitting ready for any attempt at landings, but then America was always happy to murder civilians to get their way...

    - they won't sell their traditions & lifestyle; to them, not everything is about $; they want to be independent in their provinces & villages.

    With 50K US dollars they can have any tradition or lifestyle they like.

    - no: it's not landlocked, had peace since 1979, & has better climate!.

    No you are right... they would be fucked... when communism stopped in the Soviet Union all the countries they occupied faced a fate worse that collapse or death or 40 years of war... they became democracies and joined HATO and the EU, so it would be the same for Afghanistan... they would immediately be invaded by the CIA with their putrid stench and screwed over....

    Much better decades of war and misery.

    But it was always Americas decision... I hope they are grateful to you.

    - Putin & his buddies got his embezzled $250Bs from & still invested in the West with Russia's stolen & sold resources,

    250 billion now... invested in the west where the US could so easily seize it... earning the title.

    I'm glad I'm not in that Ukrainian shithole anymore & only regret that didn't leave the USSR sooner.

    It has democracy now and is trying to join the EU and HATO... surely you want to run home and live the dream... don't you even want to taste Nulands cookies?

    u may call Russia by any other name but some1 must be an alfa male in a wolfpack.

    Not where the west is going mate... a few more generations like the current ones and you wont need an alpha male... alpha males will be banned... and calling them alpha males is sexist anyway... the way to solve wars in the future will be with hugs...

    Humans r also social animals, & states form their own packs.

    The US can gather together the biggest coalition of the stupid the world has ever seen.... nuclear weapons makes them useless.

    - & lately to NATO too, besides to many in the ASEAN, India, & Japan.

    The US is HATO and Japan is Americas bitch too. We will see how far India will follow the US... I am sure a high maintenance bitch like the US was worth it a few decades ago but there are wrinkles and rolls of fat and she aint so pretty now...

    .- they use term "adversary"; enemy is in actual shooting war.

    They are totally full of shit when it comes to using the correct words... they call all sorts of democratically elected leaders dictators and they call what they have a democracy... so they got no idea.

    - with those forces in the region, Russia will have hard time conducting trade that would damage American interests.

    Fuck America... who gives a shit about American interests... American interests seem to be they own everything and thy control everything... any country that is not Americas bitch and does as they are told will damage American interests... grow up.

    The US will be containing Russia & China everywhere & it'll be easiest to do in its own backyard.

    Most places it has tried it has failed, so I don't think they care very much what the US does.

    .- they may have S-400/500s & MiG-31Ms with them too.

    No they wont because they are not making any more MiG-31Ms and they certainly wont waste them basing them overseas.

    - not every country, & the VMF ships will also have their AD to add.

    Not any country... Russia is there to trade... if a country wants to buy Russian military gear that is fine but if not that is fine too.

    This isn't about expanding weapon sales.

    - $/RBs r spent to build NP icebreakers & they could be armed & used as tugs for the floating airfields, saving $ on TAKR/CVNs. But if TAKR/CVNs r built, they won't be dual use & suitable as icebreakers.

    They are building nuclear powered ice breakers so they can open up their northern route for trade between Asia and EU, they are building CVs so they can expand their trade around the globe. They have enough ground based airfields in the north and far east... occasionally sailing a CV or CVN up there will enhance their performance but is not critical and not worth wasting money on a dedicated floating airfield they might only occasionally use.

    big barges/converted ships/floating airfields could handle a lot more & larger aircraft, incl. Yak-44/KJ-600 size AWACS/CODs, An-12/26s, IL-112/276s, Mi-26/38s, & w/o catapults.

    A CVN would do the same but also be able to be moved rapidly anywhere they need it.

    - if so, there will be carrier gaps into which NATO will get in, unless the VMF keeps a CBG forward deployed there.

    Who cares?

    Why should Russia care what HATO are doing with their ships... their carrier groups are dead meat even to a Russian Corvette let alone a sub...

    Tsavo, sorry if I ask, but could you please use the normal quote and /quote function to reply?

    It is not really "user friendly" to follow your posts where your reply is always the one in bold...

    Personally I use the tabs on my browser and click on the original thread tab and highlight the text I want to reply to and press the control and c key to copy the text, and then right click on the reply button at the end of the discussion and choose open in another tab. In that other tab I normally type out quote in square brackets, then control v to paste and then type /quote in square brackets and reply.

    That way if I don't want to reply to everything I am not repeating entire posts or former replies.

    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:43 am

    So essentially what you are saying is that while they had the massive shipyards in what is now the Ukraine, they never planned to base aircraft carriers in the Black Sea. So why can't you get that into your head?
    again, their situation was different then.

    But once it was operational it went to the Northern fleet where it stayed.
    who knows, if Crimea wasn't lost, it could've stayed there, at least for longer than it did, instead.

    Saying it might, when it hasn't and actually most likely wont is not a good basis for a belief.
    it's only my & that article's author opinion, not belief.

    Wouldn't it make more sense to actually sail to the locations it wants to experience and practise and train there... that could be part of the training in fact.
    adding more expences, wear & tear on it & its aircraft, not to mention the crew; training better to be conducted closer to home but with similar conditions far away. During WWII, the USN had training carriers in the Great Lakes & after 1945, the Soviet VMF trained its ASW carriers & TAKRs in their respective fleets' AORs. Russia doesn't have them (& won't have them anytime soon) in the Pac. Fleet, while the NF won't be using them in the Barens Sea & the Arctic anyway. The Med. Sea were they r likely to train, deploy & transit is as closed as the BS, so basing & deploying it in/from the BS is also safer as Turkey can be dealt with better than the UK that controls Gibraltar.
    What was once a Russian naval backwater is now the centerpiece of Russian power projection into the Mediterranean. Indeed, setting aside the nuclear deterrent mission carried out by the Northern and Pacific Fleets, the Black Sea Fleet has proven to be the most operationally and tactically successful of Russia’s four major fleets.

    Wont save money to have to refit the naval facilities in the Black Sea to base an aircraft carrier that has never been based there before in Russian territory.
    all it needs r a longer pier, more barracks, & perhaps fuel storage & housing for dependents. Sevastopol & Novorossiysk r not the only naval bases there.

    What the US does is not relevant.
    it is, since both US & RF naval bases r so remote from the areas they'll deploy their CB/SGs to.

    What is the RFE?
    Russian Far East.

    The only thing that has changed is ownership of Sevastopol... and I doubt there is room there for the Kuznetsov, let alone all the support ships it would need.
    they could make more room for all of them across other bases; the Adm. K can stay at anchor like it was in Severomorsk before sailing to Syria.

    My head is not in the sand... if you can give me one good reason to support bottling the K up in the BS I am open to hearing it, but at the moment there are plenty of reasons past, present, and future to not base it there, that even one good reason wouldn't be enough to change my mind and the fact that you can't even come up with one good solid reason makes me feel happy with my position and reasoning.
    to me, all the reasons I stated r good enough.

    I understand that might frustrate you but perhaps you need to look harder at why you think the way you think.
    I can think the same way the Russians think on naval matters to justify steps that others won't approve or understand. In their reality, they must do things differently than any1 else, while adopting certain things that others do. To me, Russia isn't an enigma like it was/is to Churchill & other Western leaders.

    They can do anything. The fact that this ship is getting back into the water next year or the year after suggests work on upgrades and expansions should already have started
    if they decide to transfer more ships to the BSF, all they need to do is move some boats to Asov/Caspian Sea &/ get rid of ex-Ukr.N boats to make more room at the BS bases. More upgrades & expansions could be done later.

    They have... but none in the Black Sea...
    that's not how they think. More often than not, they play it by the ear.

    training is not required for parades and keeping it for parades is useless.
    training is for the real ops & parades r for the PR & propaganda.

    ..so basing it there so the local forces can practise against a pretend enemy carrier group is actually dumb...
    not only the local forces, but all forces & personnel that can go there to train.

    Even if Russia had all six Typhoons that could be upgraded and put into service they wouldn't... and the couldn't... each sub carries 20 missiles each with 10 warheads each...
    they could be converted to SSGNs &/ UU/AV carriers.

    With 50K US dollars they can have any tradition or lifestyle they like.
    most of the time, the Americans shoot 1st & ask ?s later; they won't pay any1 they can just shoot; if they turn out to be killed by mistake, they'll pay their relatives, if at all. If any local accepts $ from the infidels, he is a traitor & marked man. Being under occupation= losing ur lifestyle & culture. That's why Mexicans kicked out the French & NK kicked out all Chinese advisors & troops after the Korean War.

    250 billion now... invested in the west where the US could so easily seize it... earning the title.
    just wait, their turn will come!

    It has democracy now and is trying to join the EU and HATO... surely you want to run home and live the dream... don't you even want to taste Nulands cookies?
    I joined NATO as soon as I arrived to Italy & NY in 1988; my home is the whole world, & I could care less about that forsaken place & don't eat cookies- sugar is bad for health.

    Not where the west is going mate...
    Russia needs to be the alfa fe/male if she is to stay great, & not only in size.

    The US can gather together the biggest coalition of the stupid the world has ever seen.... nuclear weapons makes them useless.
    soon the tactical nukes will be used while the MAD is the last resort.

    Fuck America... who gives a shit about American interests...
    the US does & will use its forces to fight for them.

    Most places it has tried it has failed, ..
    time will tell!

    No they wont because they are not making any more MiG-31Ms and they certainly wont waste them basing them overseas.
    they r upgrading those in storage & will have enough to deploy. if not, Su-30/34/35s could substitute them.

    This isn't about expanding weapon sales.
    it's about helping to defend them & their trade there.

    ..they are building CVs so they can expand their trade around the globe.
    - they rn't building them yet!
    They have enough ground based airfields in the north and far east... occasionally sailing a CV or CVN up there will enhance their performance but is not critical and not worth wasting money on a dedicated floating airfield they might only occasionally use.
    I'm talking about sailing NP icebrakers & floating airfields South as a substitute for CVNs, if need be.

    A CVN would do the same but also be able to be moved rapidly anywhere they need it.
    slower NP icebreaker speed (in ice-free waters, the maximum speed of the nuclear-powered icebreakers is as much as 21 knots) is a trade off for the $Bs saved on CVN construction & operations. After deployments supporting the VMF, it can resume its work on the NSR.

    Who cares? Why should Russia care what HATO are doing with their ships... their carrier groups are dead meat even to a Russian Corvette let alone a sub...
    which would defeat the purpose of sending a CBG there in the 1st place, as land based AWACS & fighters can detect & deal with threats to those forward deployed ships/boats.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:48 am; edited 5 times in total (Reason for editing : add links)
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Mar 04, 2021 9:02 am

    A Russian corvette can defeat an entire CBG.....get off those drugs alright?

    I swear the shit, I read on this forum

    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:25 am

    You lack imagination. Catch the CBG in a big storm where it can't launch or land its air wings and all the Aegis destroyers are pretty much blind outside their radar LOS - leaving the CBG very much vulnerable to even a corvette's load of missiles. Add nuke tips and its pretty much game over for the CBG.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:38 pm

    A CBG isn't going to be caught in a big storm, Russian corvettes also don't carry enough munitions to sink that many ships even if all of them hit and the damage wasn't superficial.

    Ah the nukkkkke argument, the laziest and silly argument on this forum. If Russia drops a nuke, nukes are getting dropped on them.

    Then both countries cease to exist. There is immigration then there is just straight-up ignorance followed by idiocy
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    Post  lyle6 Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:45 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:A CBG isn't going to be caught in a big storm, Russian corvettes also don't carry enough munitions to sink that many ships even if all of them hit and the damage wasn't superficial.

    I live near the Pacific so storms that seemingly appear out of nowhere is a relatively common occurrence, so you never really know. At the same time navies did historically try to mask their presence to the enemy by traveling through a storm and that has never been more applicable with recon satellites buzzing about the earth.

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Ah the nukkkkke argument, the laziest and silly argument on this forum. If Russia drops a nuke, nukes are getting dropped on them.

    Then both countries cease to exist. There is immigration then there is just straight-up ignorance followed by idiocy

    Yeah, you wish. Meanwhile in the real world both navies regularly trained and armed themselves for fighting with tactical nuclear weaponry with the expectation that the other side would use theirs. The only people salty enough to think nukes are entirely off the table are the fanboys who can't stomach that their billion dollar white elephants could be taken down with almost contemptuous ease once the nukes are let out and think the world should kill itself just because thousands of sailors got vaporized. Lawl.

    Also how did immigration factor into this? Are you drunk or high?
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:13 pm

    This isn't WW2 and in modern times, a CBG would have more than enough warning of a storm.

    No, it's common sense, only a fool would believe if you drop a nuke that the other side won't drop them on you if they have them of course. I am not going to debate this if you think otherwise then you just a fool.

    Lol, I am no fanboy sure anything that floats can be sunk, however saying a mere corvette could sink an entire CBG and that if Russia used a nuke they wouldn't be returned if nothing but stupidity at its finest.

    Your logic is so flawed its funny, I never said nukes couldn't be used just that if they are, welp both us AND Russia go bye bye. People on this forum are so out of touch with reality its hilarious.
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    Post  lyle6 Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:24 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:This isn't WW2 and in modern times, a CBG would have more than enough warning of a storm.

    No, it's common sense, only a fool would believe if you drop a nuke that the other side won't drop them on you if they have them of course. I am not going to debate this if you think otherwise then you just a fool.

    Lol, I am no fanboy sure anything that floats can be sunk, however saying a mere corvette could sink an entire CBG and that if Russia used a nuke they wouldn't be returned if nothing but stupidity at its finest.

    Your logic is so flawed its funny, I never said nukes couldn't be used just that if they are, welp both us AND Russia go bye bye. People on this forum are so out of touch with reality its hilarious.

    Repeating your delusions would not make it any more true I'm afraid. I rest my case.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Mar 04, 2021 5:54 pm

    Tell yourself that.
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    Post  Backman Thu Mar 04, 2021 7:15 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:A Russian corvette can defeat an entire CBG.....get off those drugs alright?

    I swear the shit, I read on this forum


    Who said everyone on this forum opposes aircraft carriers ? That's BS.

    Ppl are just making the argument that they are vulnerable. Look what happened to big battle ships like the Bismark. Cruise missiles are to super carriers , what aircraft were to huge battle ship's like the Bismark.
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    Post  Singular_Transform Thu Mar 04, 2021 7:49 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:A Russian corvette can defeat an entire CBG.....get off those drugs alright?

    I swear the shit, I read on this forum


    8 supersonic /hypersonic missile more than enoguht to disable / destroy a carrier.

    The other ships doesn't really matter, they just supports.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:29 pm

    They carry ASh/LACMs, UAVs &/ ASW helos, so they do matter.
    A CVN must be hit with just 2-3 HSMs to be disabled/sunk.
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    Post  LMFS Thu Mar 04, 2021 9:52 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:A Russian corvette can defeat an entire CBG.....get off those drugs alright?

    I swear the shit, I read on this forum

    A bit exaggerated yes, lacking arguments... not. A salvo of eight Zircons means, today and with a high probability, 8 mission kills. Granted the CBG can act further than 1000 km away, but that is (currently) overstretching is surveillance means and defence perimeter. Nobody in its right mind would pit a corvette against a CBG, but it is also true that a CBG is not, in the current state of things, ready to counter even a token amount of hypersonic weapons launched at that distance.
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    Post  lyle6 Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:41 pm

    Note that all these ships aren't armored at all, in fact practically nothing is. Modern sensors also boast a level of resolution that could discriminate the various parts of the ship, like the bridge which houses the irreplaceable senior officers and the control equipment for the rest of the ship and target them accordingly.

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    Post  LMFS Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:27 am

    lyle6 wrote:Note that all these ships aren't armored at all, in fact practically nothing is. Modern sensors also boast a level of resolution that could discriminate the various parts of the ship, like the bridge which houses the irreplaceable senior officers and the control equipment for the rest of the ship and target them accordingly.

    A hit in the VLS area would make the magazine explode and rip the ship in two, high on the superstructure would destroy the bridge and radars, deep below the battle control rooms, further behind the engines, not to talk about the temperatures that would set the ship and its fuel on fire... it is hard to hit a vessel with such a fast, destructive missile and not create massive damage

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    Post  Big_Gazza Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:41 am

    Backman wrote:Cruise missiles are to super carriers , what aircraft were to huge battle ship's like the Bismark.

    To be fair, the contribution of aircraft to the sinking of the Bismarck was confined to jamming her steering gear by a lucky torpedo hit.  The hard work in taking her down was done by the big gunz of HMS Rodney and King George V.

    It would be better to refer to Yamato or Musashi instead as both were sunk solely by carrier-based aviation.

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