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    Sweden and Finland accession to NATO

    franco
    franco


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    Post  franco Sun Jan 08, 2023 8:59 pm


    Sweden considers Turkey's conditions for NATO membership unfeasible


    The Turkish authorities put forward conditions that are impossible for Sweden regarding the country's accession to the North Atlantic Alliance. This was stated by Prime Minister of Sweden Ulf Kristersson, speaking at the conference "People and Defense".

    "Turkey confirms that we have done what we promised, but also says that it wants what we cannot or do not want to give," RIA Novosti quoted Kristersson as saying, citing Reuters.

    Against the backdrop of Russia's special military operation in Ukraine, on May 18, 2022, Finland and Sweden submitted applications to join the alliance to the NATO Secretary General. To date, the applications of Sweden and Finland to the North Atlantic Alliance have not been ratified by only two countries out of 30 - Hungary and Turkey.

    Earlier, Sweden handed over to the Turkish side a member of the PKK as part of an agreement to join NATO. Mahmut Tat, who was sentenced in absentia in Turkey to almost seven years in prison, turned out to be extradited. Thus, Sweden began to fulfill its earlier obligations in exchange for Turkey's consent to its entry into the North Atlantic Alliance. ■

    NOTE: in addition the Foreign Minister of Finland says that Finland wants to wait until Sweden can join before officially joining NATO.

    https://tvzvezda-ru.translate.goog/news/2023181835-hwhNW.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-GB&_x_tr_pto=nui

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Jan 09, 2023 1:49 am

    Turkey knows the instant Sweden and Finland are in HATO they will go back to protecting terrorists... it is not in Turkeys interests to let them in... it does not add anything to HATO.

    Both Hungary and Turkey see the situation as being a chance to finally be listened to for a change... Finland and Sweden should think about this... these two countries are already in HATO but are frustrated at being ignored and not being listened to... what sort of organisation does Finland and Sweden think HATO is?

    Ironic that Turkey and Hungary are more opposed to Finland and Sweden joining HATO than Russia is...

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    walle83


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    Post  walle83 Mon Jan 09, 2023 11:24 pm

    Sweden will join Natos European Sky Shield Initiative by sharing air surveillance data and they will also join the airdefence of the Baltic nations when they become full members.

    https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/statsministern-haller-presstraff-om-sveriges-intrade-i-nato

    Stoltenberg says its time for Turkey and Hungary to let Sweden and Finland join the Nato alliance.

    https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/stoltenberg-sverige-ar-ett-tryggare-land-nu-an-innan-ansokan
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Jan 10, 2023 12:10 am

    Stoltenberg says its time for Turkey and Hungary to let Sweden and Finland join the Nato alliance.

    He said they should join when they floated the idea themselves, but Turkey and Hungary have the decision for themselves to make.

    HATO is not a consensus like the EU is not a consensus... there are leaders and controllers and there are the rest except in situations like this where the rest can risk standing up and actually being heard for a short space of time.

    It is obviously just a question of those in control fishing around looking for the correct button to push, or the suitable limb to threaten to remove, when being nice doesn't work they will start with the threats... Bolten has already suggested Turkey should be kicked out of HATO but obviously the US bases and nuclear weapons in Turkey as well as its significant military force is probably something most other members don't want to give up.

    Of course American politicians are children that have regular tantrums and don't really think things through, which will be interesting if they get their way.

    All these years and Turkey has not even been allowed to join the EU when talk of Ukraine joining must really annoy them.

    I don't care either way... this is going to cost Finland and Sweden billions and also means they will lose control of their military... the wall alone for Finland will be expensive for such a small country, and becoming a hostile state officially with Russia will cut out any remaining trade and relations because they will no longer be neutral... but then they never really were.

    You are Americas bitch now so look forward to how that works out.

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Tue Jan 10, 2023 2:52 am

    Just send those useless Gripens to Ukraine and buy US F-35s already. Money printer go brrr...

    Then Russia can more easily destroy your airforce in the ground because the glorious F-35 can only operate from prepared airfields. And sometimes not even that.
    Sweden and Finland accession to NATO - Page 15 Image36

    A tactical nuke on each major airfield and blamo.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Jan 10, 2023 9:46 am

    Better than that... all new HATO countries get 100 free F-35s, and existing HATO countries have to buy twice that number... the operational costs alone will bankrupt the west and do nothing for their actual defence.

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    walle83


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    Post  walle83 Tue Jan 10, 2023 11:50 am

    Either way its just a question of time. Turkey will have to let the Nordic nation in sooner or later.

    And with whole North then being Nato members except Russia, well lets just say i wouldnt wana be a russian pilot in a su-24 flying over the Baltic sea in a heated situation after that.

    Finland and Sweden would have no problem raising thier defencebudget with several BNP %. I doubt a "wall" is going to a problem.

    Sweden has alredy announced a 2% goal by 2025. And now its discussion to raise it even more. Maybe 2.5-3.0%. Basicly going back to Cold war numbers.
    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Tue Jan 10, 2023 2:53 pm

    Finland and Sweden would have no problem raising thier defencebudget with several BNP %.
    More like they are headed to become the next Greece.

    Swedish balance of trade:
    Sweden and Finland accession to NATO - Page 15 Image37

    Finnish balance of trade:
    Sweden and Finland accession to NATO - Page 15 Image38

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    walle83


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    Post  walle83 Tue Jan 10, 2023 8:31 pm

    More or less the same all over. To compare Sweden and Greece economics, yeah well thats like comparing Russia with China today Wink
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Jan 11, 2023 3:09 am

    Either way its just a question of time. Turkey will have to let the Nordic nation in sooner or later.

    But is it?

    No. They don't have to approve it at all.

    Of course the US could just change the rules like it normally does...

    The funny thing is that I think being allowed to join HATO will do more damage to Sweden and Finland than keeping their neutrality, so I do hope the west caves and gives Turkey and Hungary what they want... it is sad the only way they can be happy within HATO is to do this sort of thing to be heard by those in control... but then Sweden and Finland will not learn this until it is too late and they are in.

    And with whole North then being Nato members except Russia, well lets just say i wouldnt wana be a russian pilot in a su-24 flying over the Baltic sea in a heated situation after that.

    Yeah, threats... who is the aggressor again?

    Finland and Sweden would have no problem raising thier defencebudget with several BNP %. I doubt a "wall" is going to a problem.

    So if security is so important to them why have they not raised it... and where is the money coming from... what programmes will be cut to make Russia officially your enemy?

    You can't print money like the US does and pretty soon they are going to demand a 5% GDP spend on military... 3% going directly to Kievs coffers no doubt...

    Sweden has alredy announced a 2% goal by 2025.

    That is the bare minimum that HATO countries are supposed to already be spending, though many are not...

    And now its discussion to raise it even more. Maybe 2.5-3.0%. Basicly going back to Cold war numbers.

    If they buy F-35s and actually want them to fly then that will just be the start...

    Regarding the trade balance, some countries import a lot of stuff and some do not, while some countries export a lot of stuff and others don't... the actual raw numbers don't mean much... imagine a country that imports 100 million tons of coal every year but has a machine that crushes it down into diamonds... 1,000 tons of diamonds is created by one million tons of coal but they want to import the coal and export the diamonds... whether you go by value or volume you get different results... 100,000 tons of diamonds exported probably earns more money than it costs to import 100 million tons of coal...

    Trump used such figures to show America was getting screwed but really it has always been America doing the screwing.

    It is like a barber complaining to the local supermarket owner because the barber buys hundreds of dollars in groceries each week but the supermarket owner only gets his hair cut once every 4-5 weeks and it only costs him $20.

    Ridiculous.

    well thats like comparing Russia with China today

    Funny you say that because Chinas economy is not booming like it has been and Russias economy is ticking over... neither are in any sense bad and are getting better all the time.

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    Kiko
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    Post  Kiko Sun Jan 29, 2023 10:12 pm

    Erdogan warns Sweden of 'shocking' decision on Finland's NATO membership, by Anna Belorustseva for Rossiskaya Gazeta. 01.29.2023. Exclamation

    Turkish leader Recep Tayyip Erdogan has announced a "shocking" decision for Sweden that Ankara could make regarding the ratification of Finland's application to join NATO.

    "If necessary, we can give a different message on Finland. Sweden will be shocked when we give a different message on Finland," Erdogan warned at a meeting with youth in the Turkish city of Bilecik.

    Recall that on May 18, 2022, against the background of the escalation of the conflict in Ukraine, Finland and Sweden submitted applications for joining the military bloc to the Secretary General of the North Atlantic Alliance. To replenish the ranks of NATO allies, the request of the Scandinavian countries must be ratified by all 30 members of the association. At the moment, the initiative of Stockholm and Helsinki is being boycotted by Hungary and Turkey.

    Another obstacle in the tripartite negotiation process was the scandalous public burning of the Koran by Danish politician Paludan in front of the Turkish Embassy in Stockholm on January 21. In addition to destroying the holy book of Muslims, the leader of the far-right Hard Deal party criticized Turkish leader Recep Tayyip Erdogan and showed a caricature of the Prophet Muhammad. Later, on January 27, he repeated the barbaric action in front of a mosque in Copenhagen, promising to burn the Koran weekly until Turkey ratifies Sweden's NATO bid.

    However, the politician's actions had the opposite effect and added fuel to the fire in the already aggravated relations between Ankara and Stockholm. Turkish President Erdogan warned his Scandinavian colleagues that after this and other anti-Turkish actions in the Swedish capital, the kingdom "should not wait for Turkey's support for its application" to join the North Atlantic Alliance.

    https://rg.ru/2023/01/29/erdogan-predupredil-shveciiu-o-shokiruiushchem-dlia-nee-reshenii-po-chlenstvu-finliandii-v-nato.html
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:00 am

    Didn't take long...

    Russia may be linked to Stockholm Koran burning – Finnish FM

    Finnish Foreign Minister Pekka Haavisto has claimed that Russia may have been behind the public burning of Korans in Stockholm, Sweden last week. He added that the stunt could have been orchestrated to derail the country’s bid to join NATO.

    On January 21, Rasmus Paludan, an anti-Islam activist and leader of a minor Danish far-right party, Stram Kurs (Hard Line), set the Muslim holy book on fire outside the Turkish Embassy in Stockholm. Ankara strongly protested the action, with President Recep Tayyip Erdogan saying on Monday that Sweden could no longer rely on Türkiye’s support for its accession to the US-led military bloc.

    On Friday, Paludan burned copies of the Koran in front of a mosque, the Turkish Embassy, and the Russian Consulate in Copenhagen, Denmark.

    Speaking to Finnish TV channel Yle on Saturday, Haavisto floated the idea that Russia could be linked to the book burning. “This matter is under investigation. Various ties in the activist’s circle have been uncovered,” Haavisto said. “I cannot say with certainty … But we have been shown a concept of how to act in order to inflict maximum damage [to the NATO membership bid].”

    The Russian Foreign Ministry harshly condemned the Koran burning. Spokeswoman Maria Zakharova said on Sunday that Haavisto’s suggestion that Moscow may have been responsible for the incident was “disgusting to watch.”

    Finland and Sweden ditched their longstanding policies of non-alignment and jointly applied to join NATO last year, citing Russia’s military operation in Ukraine.


    Hahahaha... Europeans and Americans are experts at sabotaging themselves... Russia and China just needs to let them... imagine how screwed the west would be if the Russians were as big a set of bastards as the west...

    https://www.rt.com/news/570656-finland-russia-koran-burning/

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    GreyHog


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    Post  GreyHog Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:36 am

    Russia may be linked to Stockholm Koran burning – Finnish FM

    Between this and the German Foreign Ministry saying that Russia "twisting" Annalena Baerbock's careless war statement the other day, I don't know whether to cry or laugh... Although these two expressions are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

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    Hole
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    Post  Hole Tue Jan 31, 2023 10:40 pm

    Sweden and Finland accession to NATO - Page 15 Fnxxnv10

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    walle83


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    Post  walle83 Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:15 am

    Looks like Erdogan might have trubble getting his F-16s if he continues to refuse letting in Sweden and Finland as members.

    https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/us-congress-says-f-16-sale-turkey-depends-nato-approval-2023-02-02/

    WASHINGTON, Feb 2 (Reuters) - The U.S. Congress cannot support the $20 billion sale of F-16 fighter jets to Turkey until Ankara ratifies the NATO memberships of Sweden and Finland, a bipartisan group of senators said on Thursday. wrote:

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    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Fri Feb 03, 2023 12:27 pm

    Well if you know Erdogan, then you might figure that it's just about possible that he'll forgo that contract altogether, if it means putting his foot down over a vital issue.

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    Broski
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    Post  Broski Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:53 pm

    The US is making all the right moves these days with Turkey, attempting a coup d'état, sanctions, now denying the turkish airforce upgrades for their sizeable F-16 fleet, which keeps pushing Erdogan into the hands of Russia. Geniuses!

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    Post  ALAMO Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:34 pm

    An interesting detail is a fact, that it was Turkey food production that substituted the EU embargo after the reunification of Crimea.
    Sided with smuggling of course Laughing

    Only the history of failed coup should tell everyone what kind of "ally" the Murica is, and how much pragmatic the Russkie became.
    Both countries were on the edge of war. And one stupid move from Murica assisted by the Russkie simply warning the Erdo twisted the entire structure build there for decades.
    Amazing.

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    Hole
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    Post  Hole Fri Feb 03, 2023 4:16 pm

    Nice that Erdogan blocks some decisions but in the end to be really trustworthy (for Russia, China, Iran...) Erdogan has to throw out the Americans and leave NATO.
    Then Turkey can become full member of SCO, EAEU and so on.

    NATO gets Sweden and Finland.
    The free world gets Turkey.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Feb 04, 2023 3:37 am

    Denying them F-16s is a good thing... for Turkey.

    Turkey gave up being part of the F-35 production group and 100 F-35 aircraft so it could have S-400 SAMs... obviously part of it was the way the US handled them... first saying no they can't have Patriot, and then asking why they chose the S-400 over Patriot... hilarious.

    If the US wants to push this perhaps Turkey might want to buy Su-35s with significant local production of parts, Iran seems to be buying them too... Turkey has a good industry, perhaps they might want to buy Ka-52s as well...

    Turkey is in a position where they make lots of stuff for themselves but also rely on other partners to make important parts for their products too... which is why the Swedish arms embargo hurt them and of course other countries within HATO not providing things like engines for their drones and cameras and plenty of other components which hurt their military production capacity.

    They teamed with Ukraine to get engines for their drones, but were rather more neutral than most western countries when the war started.

    I would say all the gaps created by sanctions by their so called allies in the EU and HATO and the west could easily be filled by Russia and China... the US continues to push allies away and damage them when they are not as two faced as the US is... only the scumbags could possibly remain friends... grab a chair when the music stops... doesn't matter which chair... last time the music stopped the chairs had swastikas all over them, but the west sat on them anyway because they are good pavlovs dogs... the US has trained them over a long period to do things that are even against their own interests when it suits the US...

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    walle83


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    Post  walle83 Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:12 pm

    Turkey will initiate the ratification of Finlands NATO membership, Sweden remain in negotiations but hopes to be able to fully join by July 2023.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/17/turkey-erdogan-approves-nato-membership-finland-but-not-sweden-.html
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Mar 21, 2023 2:39 am

    Hopes... for 20 years Putin hoped the west and Russia could work together and sort some problems out on both sides and really develop and grow and prosper, but the west was not interested.

    Sincerely I hope the US changes the rules and allows Sweden to join, it makes things clear to Russia and the rest of the world that Sweden and Finland are not neutral and they have chosen to be American vassal states... providers of meat shields, sources of cannon fodder.

    Russia does not need or want their territory and their entire population can be considered hostile, so any future war against them will be of survival... of annihilation... they will be part of HATO so nukes would be very important options... use them early and destroy Finland and Sweden and the rest of the pack might blink... worth a try.

    It wont be long before HATO has a meeting and says their military forces are in terrible shape and there is no ammo or weapon reserves for any actual conflict so all member states will have to start paying rather more for their defence... if Trump gets in he might pull out of HATO and Europe might have to create its own military force of interventions and theft of resources around the world.

    It might be 10% of GDP to rebuild and stock up on the weapons and ammo needed in a serious conflict.

    Ironically it was not that long ago that people thought it was amusing that Russia had something like 19 million assault rifles at a time when they wanted to introduce new rifles.

    I am sure such a failing is now considered a strength by those who are interested in the truth.

    Of course if Turkey refuses to say yes and the US cuts them off from spare parts for F-16s then Turkey is going to have to look elsewhere for aircraft... that will be amusing when they adopt a new weapon system and the US gets all upset because when they said Turkey couldn't have F-16s, they actually meant they couldn't have any new planes at all.

    When Turkey buys its own planes (rather than leasing them like you do with all US equipment) then how will the US control what Turkey can or cannot have?

    Obviously they can't.
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    Post  PhSt Tue Apr 04, 2023 11:00 pm

    Russia needs to update its policy towards NATzO Lapdog Finland, they are too close to Russia, they are a security threat as a result of their NATzO membership, Russia needs to put in stone a policy that will seek to Dismember and Absorb Occupied Finland back into Russia

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Apr 05, 2023 2:32 am

    Nah.

    Finland has made its choice and does not want to be friends with Russia or even just neutral, so they ticked the enemy box, so Russia has no reason to worry about them at all.

    If a war starts their military bases will be glassed and their population centres too, and if they want to start a guerilla war then burn their forests to the ground and reinforce the wall they will inevitably build... from the other side.

    Finland is not Ukraine where there are victims of their leadership who speak Russian and just want good relations with Russia, so the slow and careful eradication of Nazis, and the demilitarisation of the territory so the remaining Ukrainians can either join the Russian federation or create a new state without the US born and educated people directing them on a collision course with Russia.

    Finland will be just like Poland... nothing to save, the purpose of conflict is to destroy a threat, not save a population held hostage ultimately by Americans.

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    Post  flamming_python Wed Apr 05, 2023 2:55 am

    Have fun in NATO Finland!

    No buyer's regrets though dunno

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