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    Sweden and Finland accession to NATO

    lancelot
    lancelot


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    Post  lancelot Wed Sep 07, 2022 2:36 am

    walle83 wrote:That has nothing to do with joining Nato today. If Russia havnt invaded Ukraine neither Finland or Sweden would have applied. And again the F-35 has nothing to do with anything.

    And the so called "anti-russian politics" was absolutly correct, the reality shows the the Russian cant be trusted.
    Bollocks. After Soviet Union collapsed Finland reneged on its post WW2 neutrality deal. And after Putin 2007 Munich security conference speech, where he stated NATO's de facto disruption of European security with bogus application of Conventional Forces in Europe Treaty, where former Warsaw Pact countries are still treated as if they were in opposition to NATO (when they are now in NATO in opposition to Russia), the Finns hurried to buy long range MLRS from the US. Not to mention Finnish intent to purchase air launched cruise missiles from US too. Which they own today.

    As for Sweden, who supplied the engines for your Viggen and Grippen? Where do you get nearly all your air launched weapons for these fighters? It has been a de facto member of NATO for a long time. Same ammo, mostly same missiles, and information sharing. What Sweden loses is its own independence in terms of security posture. Next time US wants to send troops into Afghanistan you don't get a saying if you send troops or not. If US wants you to buy F-35, then you buy F-35. Just like Germany and Finland did recently.


    Last edited by lancelot on Wed Sep 07, 2022 6:50 am; edited 1 time in total

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    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Wed Sep 07, 2022 6:45 am

    Whether Russia can be trusted or not is tangential to what's going on

    Finland and Sweden are ruled by the same globalist careerists/dirty dancers as the rest of Western Europe. They're all in it together. It's all the same empire/project/whatever. If Finland and Sweden hadn't been in NATO up until now, so then it was a tactical consideration, both by the respective national elites of these countries, and by Washington.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Sep 07, 2022 8:17 pm

    Not really surprised they are both giving up neutrality... the US and EU have had the policy for the three decades after the end of the cold war... you are either with us or you are with the terrorists... there is no third option and of course given the choice of cutting themselves off from trade with Russia and Belarus and keeping their independence and freedoms to decide what to spend on an when, or cutting themselves off from Russia and Belarus and keeping trade and ties with the EU and the "western world" it is pretty obvious which they were going to take... but it is a bit like Brexit... lots of snap decisions but no real discussion about the costs and implications of picking one side or the other... they didn't even get a referendum... and now their course is set and their side is picked... the US and EU don't like dissent or independent thinkers.

    How could they ignore the aggression of Russia in Ukraine?

    Well most of the rest of the world noticed all the serious activity by Europe and the US to create that situation in the first place and understand Russian actions even if they don't approve of the violence.

    The irony is that the west often chooses violence and invasion and war as their first choice which makes them look very flaky complaining now about Russian actions.

    Why did they pick joining HATO when HATO has proven so weak in ineffectual... well they didn't have a lot of other options presented to them by their new allies... you either with us or you with the Ruskies...

    Feel most sorry for Finland... 1.350km of border is a lot of fencing and walls to build and monitor for such a small population country, which is much better for an attacker than a defender you only needs to find a few weak spots to cross... this is going to be expensive and I doubt other HATO countries will help fund it because they have to reequip their own forces now that the Ukraine has fired off most of their ready stocks of ammo for many different weapon systems.

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    walle83


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    Post  walle83 Thu Sep 08, 2022 6:40 pm

    lancelot wrote:
    walle83 wrote:That has nothing to do with joining Nato today. If Russia havnt invaded Ukraine neither Finland or Sweden would have applied. And again the F-35 has nothing to do with anything.

    And the so called "anti-russian politics" was absolutly correct, the reality shows the the Russian cant be trusted.
    Bollocks. After Soviet Union collapsed Finland reneged on its post WW2 neutrality deal. And after Putin 2007 Munich security conference speech, where he stated NATO's de facto disruption of European security with bogus application of Conventional Forces in Europe Treaty, where former Warsaw Pact countries are still treated as if they were in opposition to NATO (when they are now in NATO in opposition to Russia), the Finns hurried to buy long range MLRS from the US. Not to mention Finnish intent to purchase air launched cruise missiles from US too. Which they own today.

    As for Sweden, who supplied the engines for your Viggen and Grippen? Where do you get nearly all your air launched weapons for these fighters? It has been a de facto member of NATO for a long time. Same ammo, mostly same missiles, and information sharing. What Sweden loses is its own independence in terms of security posture. Next time US wants to send troops into Afghanistan you don't get a saying if you send troops or not. If US wants you to buy F-35, then you buy F-35. Just like Germany and Finland did recently.

    Eh No, the only reason Sweden would buy us fighters would be an economic reason. As it stands now Sweden has more collaboration with other EU members when it comes to delveloping the next generation fighter. They have 0 intrest in the F-35.

    And again, this have nothing to do with Finland and Sweden joining Nato today. Its once again, all on Putin.

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Sep 08, 2022 8:05 pm

    Sweeden has to keep SAAB alive so they will keep buying the grippen.

    But the Grippen is full of US technology.

    For their 5th gen fighter I don't see any alternative to the f-35. Germano-french project is dead in the egg. Germany is buying the f-35. Tempest will be killed by UK which already buys the f-35. And there is no other project. Sweeden can't make one alone.

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Fri Sep 09, 2022 1:12 am

    US will propose that Sweden carries US nuclear deterrent and then it will be strongly suggested that they get the F-35. And they will. Just like Germany. Any F-35 purchase will undermine the economics for an alternative plane.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Sep 09, 2022 2:18 pm

    But it is OK, because Finland and Sweden having to buy F-35s can be Putins fault too... Cool

    They wont get much of a choice... hell SAAB might even get a few parts to make for the F-35 that actually make it better...

    It might even be how they convince them to buy some... offers of making parts for them...
    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Fri Sep 09, 2022 2:30 pm

    Some countries will be puppets of the globalists to the bitter end

    Why is it that the most militaristic bloc of countries in the world is the one that's thrashing and raging against Russian aggression?

    And why doesn't the rest of the world give a shit and is saying nothing?

    Gain Finland and Sweden in NATO.. countries that were part of NATO in all but name anyway
    But lose India. Good going Washington.

    The bigger picture is not Russia vs. Ukraine, it's the West trying to maintain its hegemony through all these Ukraines and Taiwans and whatever.

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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Fri Sep 09, 2022 4:06 pm

    flamming_python wrote:Some countries will be puppets of the globalists to the bitter end
    Why is it that the most militaristic bloc of countries in the world is the one that's thrashing and raging against Russian aggression?
    And why doesn't the rest of the world give a shit and is saying nothing?
    Gain Finland and Sweden in NATO.. countries that were part of NATO in all but name anyway
    But lose India. Good going Washington.
    The bigger picture is not Russia vs. Ukraine, it's the West trying to maintain its hegemony through all these Ukraines and Taiwans and whatever.

    There was a nice interview with the new Indian minister of economics (or whatever he is called) about energy purchase, i.e oil.
    Funny!
    First, he smashed the stupid question about the "morality of purchasing from evil Putin" by answering that he gives a shit about "morality" as he is responsible for his own nation only. They will buy whatever they want from any democratic and worldwide accepted country Laughing Laughing
    And that the countries who are yapping "morality" are the first in a row who buys it in waste amount while pretending other Laughing Laughing
    But the second part was even funnier Laughing Laughing as the lady insisted him to made a stance about "aggressive Russian policy".
    The guy answered that he has been a diplomat for the last 39 years, and that was in the UN bodies. So he remembers perfectly well what "aggression" means in the westerners mouth, as he watched that from the first row for Liba, Syria, 1973 etc Laughing Laughing Laughing
    Well, the interview didn't go well I would say Twisted Evil Twisted Evil

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    walle83


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    Post  walle83 Sat Oct 08, 2022 7:48 am

    Seems like Erdogan will fight it to the bitter end.

    https://www.svt.se/nyheter/utrikes/svt-s-turkietkorrespondent-om-natomotet-i-ankara-erdogan-fortsatter-att-halla-i-vetokortet

    New negotiations between Sweden and Turkey regarding Sweden's accession to NATO begin today. Last weekend, signals came from the Turkish president that they are a long way from letting the country into the defense alliance. According to SVT's correspondent Tomas Thorén, it is back to square one in the negotiations.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Oct 08, 2022 2:18 pm

    The decision to let Finland and Sweden in gives him power amongst countries who normally boss him and his country around where they can.

    Him using this to his advantage is only something you are going to have to get used to because HATO is an organisation full of such countries.

    Look at how long Turkeys acceptance into the EU is taking...

    Ironically you should be thanking them... the cost to Finland alone is going to be enormous... building proper high level security walls over a 1,350km long border for a country with such a small population is going to be expensive, not to mention the change in relations being an enemy country part of the anti Russian organisation of HATO.

    But what else could you do... as usual with the west in general and the EU in particular... you had to choose... you can't be friends with them and friends with us so you picked the least damaging divorce.

    Of course the common sense stance was what you were doing... remaining neutral and not picking sides, but you picked a side so lets see how that goes.

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    walle83


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    Post  walle83 Sat Oct 08, 2022 8:54 pm

    GarryB wrote:The decision to let Finland and Sweden in gives him power amongst countries who normally boss him and his country around where they can.

    Him using this to his advantage is only something you are going to have to get used to because HATO is an organisation full of such countries.

    Well he can bitch and moan about it now, but as soon as the Turish parlament signs the agreement its all over.
    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Sun Oct 09, 2022 2:23 am

    walle83 wrote:
    GarryB wrote:The decision to let Finland and Sweden in gives him power amongst countries who normally boss him and his country around where they can.

    Him using this to his advantage is only something you are going to have to get used to because HATO is an organisation full of such countries.

    Well he can bitch and moan about it now, but as soon as the Turish parlament signs the agreement its all over.

    Per the same source you posted, the Turkish parliament is a 'long way from letting the country into the defensive alliance'

    I don't see the problem in simply banishing the Kurds that Turkey doesn't want in NATO from your country. They're not saying you have to extradite these people to Turkey. Simply, no longer in Sweden or Finland, and with no ability to return there.
    Well if you want to enter NATO so badly that is

    The US and EU globalist establishment, which includes Sweden's, is of course mighty upset about Turkey exercising the least amount of independence and self-interest, even over issues that directly impact its security and bear a relevance one would think to NATO - and have in turn been dropping hints about expelling Turkey from NATO instead.
    Well, let those guys try it. With the Saudis and UAE cutting oil production further, expelling Turkey from NATO will pretty much complete Washington & London disassociating from the entirety of the non-European, non-Christian world bar Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore and some funny countries such as Puerto Rico. Leaving the West as essentially just a club of European supremacy rather than anything else. It seems they are incensed more over Turkey's very audacity, than any merit of its arguments and demands.

    I remember I was reading some articles on a South African news site a few months back
    Their comments section was full of Anglo and Dutch origin people raging against the South African government for accepting an invitation to Russia for the Army 2022 event and maintaining a high level of ties to the country. They're really butt-hurt the establishment switched from them to the black Africans in the country, and what's more the later are now chumming it with the same Moscow who supplied arms against Apartheid South Africa.
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    walle83


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    Post  walle83 Sun Oct 09, 2022 6:39 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    walle83 wrote:
    GarryB wrote:The decision to let Finland and Sweden in gives him power amongst countries who normally boss him and his country around where they can.

    Him using this to his advantage is only something you are going to have to get used to because HATO is an organisation full of such countries.

    Well he can bitch and moan about it now, but as soon as the Turish parlament signs the agreement its all over.

    Per the same source you posted, the Turkish parliament is a 'long way from letting the country into the defensive alliance'

    Its all a matter of time. Turkey wont be able to continue to say no with 29 other states pressuring.

    Erdogan has his time now, and only now. When members Sweden and Finland wont give a rats ass about Turkyes opinions or agreements.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sun Oct 09, 2022 7:36 am

    And they will loose Turkey as a member. And since they are pushing and arming Greece to attack Turkey, that will force Turkey to go with Russia or develop nuks.

    Big win. They will get Sweeden, which was a defacto NATO memeber since 20 years now, but loose a strategical country, loose black sea access which will weaken all the eastern european countries. Then Moldova will fall. Then Bulgaria will switch side (they are already voting for pro russian politicians). Then domino effect.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Oct 09, 2022 11:16 am

    Well he can bitch and moan about it now, but as soon as the Turish parlament signs the agreement its all over.

    And he knows that very well from his experience trying to get EU membership... do you think that will effect the speed it goes through?

    Of course I am hoping they will take one for the team and sign off straight away... you guys have picked a team in this game... the sooner you get your gang patch and have to start doing as you are told and spend more on US weapons the better.

    That border of Finlands is going to need lots of secret crossings and lots of security towers to stop Russia doing the same... it is going to cost billions and I doubt the US will pay for it... it will probably be a loan.

    It seems they are incensed more over Turkey's very audacity, than any merit of its arguments and demands.

    It is funny... they are treating Turkey like a door mat because they want to position another doormat on Russian borders... and the potential new doormat is complaining about the old doormat not doing what it is told... Sweden and Finland are so keen to get walked all over... but I am sure the US will respect them instead and listen to their interests...


    Its all a matter of time. Turkey wont be able to continue to say no with 29 other states pressuring.

    Good, but why do you think that... Turkey has not imposed sanctions on Russia either... it seems when its own interests are effected it has a spine... there are some here who just don't like Turkey but at least they have the spine to stand up to the US which is more than the UK and France and Germany and Brussels can manage.

    Erdogan has his time now, and only now. When members Sweden and Finland wont give a rats ass about Turkyes opinions or agreements.

    Which is just another reason for him to not let you in. The purpose of the alliance is mutual defence, so adding two countries that openly protect and support groups that are attacking an existing member of HATO... it should be 29 members supporting Turkey, but that is not how HATO works... the US makes decisions and everyone agrees... except in this case of course.

    And they will loose Turkey as a member. And since they are pushing and arming Greece to attack Turkey, that will force Turkey to go with Russia or develop nuks.

    And that is an important point about this exclusive white man club... losing Turkey as a member doesn't make Turkey Russias bitch, it means Turkey is free to trade and cooperate with the rest of the world... Russia yes, but also India and China and Iran and even Syria without HATO interference.

    I like Greece and the Greeks, but I don't hate Turkey... it would be nice to see them sort their disagreements out, but if Turkey leaves HATO then the next HATO operation will likely involve the obvious. What a can of worms...

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    walle83


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    Post  walle83 Thu Nov 10, 2022 1:31 am

    Sweden might agree to base Nato nuclear weapons when joined. Nothing is decied accourding to the new Swedish defence minister, but it is a possiblity.
    https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/forsvarsministern-stanger-inte-dorren-for-karnvapen-i-sverige

    Finland also say they dont rule out the possibilty to store nuclear weapons in permanent Nato bases.
    https://yle.fi/news/3-12670106
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    Post  GarryB Thu Nov 10, 2022 5:34 pm

    Just another blatant violation of the non proliferation treaty, but if Sweden and Finland want to sweeten the deal with the US by putting nuclear targets on their backs and make it in Russias national interests for them to be able to nuke any potential nuclear weapons site in either of those countries in the first minutes of WWIII then that is their business I guess.

    I am honestly not really sure how that makes Fins and Swedes any safer... other than flash frying them in the first minutes of conflict instead of subjecting them to some nuclear winter that their neutrality was supposed to assure them.

    The Americans are so stupid they might honestly believe nuclear war might be a good thing because the nuclear winter will counter global warming and fix everything... Rolling Eyes

    But you guys are stuck with the west now... good luck with that... spend spend spend... and borrow to pay for it all... I am sure your grandkids will invent a cure for baldness or cancer, or create cold fusion and everything will be fine.

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    The-thing-next-door
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    Post  The-thing-next-door Thu Nov 10, 2022 7:19 pm

    Well nuclear weapons in Ukraine was a red line, I wonder if they will intervene in finalnd and sweeden if any missiles are placed there?
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    Post  walle83 Thu Nov 10, 2022 11:34 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:Well nuclear weapons in Ukraine was a red line, I wonder if they will intervene in finalnd and sweeden if any missiles are placed there?

    Intervene how? Invading then Nato members? And with what forces that arent already deployed in Ukraine?

    If the Nordic countries gets nukes, that i actually doubt the US is willing to do, Russia cant do anything about it accept continue to make threats.
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    Post  lyle6 Fri Nov 11, 2022 12:56 am

    As if the nordicucks have mattered since literally when?

    And what fucking slave talk. Your masters won't risk their skins to revenge your ass if you get vaporized needling the Russkies. Just ask the hohols.

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    Post  GarryB Fri Nov 11, 2022 5:14 pm

    Russia cant do anything about it accept continue to make threats.

    Russia can give nukes to countries that need to defend themselves too... like Cuba and North Korea and Iran for starters... the ones in Cuba would be very close... a fully stocked Zircon base with S-500 and S-350 and TOR to protect it.

    Maybe Mexico can join BRICS too, or just nukes so they can start saying no to their large neighbour to the north?
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    Post  walle83 Fri Nov 11, 2022 8:28 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Russia cant do anything about it accept continue to make threats.

    Russia can give nukes to countries that need to defend themselves too... like Cuba and North Korea and Iran for starters... the ones in Cuba would be very close... a fully stocked Zircon base with S-500 and S-350 and TOR to protect it.

    They tried Cuba in the 60s, didnt work that well. North Korea already have nukes, and giving them missile technology could backfire. Iran is almost going thrue a people revolution, maby the regime is gone in a year.
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    Post  flamming_python Fri Nov 11, 2022 9:36 pm

    walle83 wrote:
    The-thing-next-door wrote:Well nuclear weapons in Ukraine was a red line, I wonder if they will intervene in finalnd and sweeden if any missiles are placed there?

    Intervene how? Invading then Nato members? And with what forces that arent already deployed in Ukraine?

    If the Nordic countries gets nukes, that i actually doubt the US is willing to do, Russia cant do anything about it accept continue to make threats.

    Nordic countires aren't going to 'gets nukes'. No-one's going to give them any. The discussion you yourself brought up, is about basing US nuclear weapons on Finnish and Swedish soil.

    IMO the Nordic countries, like the rest of Europe, have bigger problems to deal with at the moment than getting nuclear weapons in response to a security threat that doesn't really exist.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Nov 11, 2022 10:39 pm

    They tried Cuba in the 60s, didnt work that well.

    It didn't work that well because America was in a different place and were powerful and had not just lost 30 million people and had most of its urban and rural areas destroyed with scorched earth policies by both sides of a world war.

    The Soviets were also in a different place on the back foot and behind in building weapons... the opposite to now.

    Russia could ship thousands of 5,000km range low flying subsonic stealthy cruise missiles in standard 80 foot shipping containers in their thousands and the US would have no idea till they were in place and ready to use.

    North Korea already have nukes, and giving them missile technology could backfire.

    Hahahaha... most of the new technology Iran and North Korea are displaying is based on technology they bought from the Ukraine whom the west wanted to give nuclear weapons and you talk about backfire?

    Iran is almost going thrue a people revolution, maby the regime is gone in a year.

    Maybe sinking a few US carriers and some EU carriers might save the regime...

    The discussion you yourself brought up, is about basing US nuclear weapons on Finnish and Swedish soil.

    Yes... America exposing its brand new allies to nuclear retaliation by Russia for the potential loss of the few hundred US personnel that would be on the bases... a trade they would be happy to make every day of the week... who gives a **** about Finland or Sweden?

    From neutral to target practise... that is real progress... and it will only cost you billions to build walls and buy F-35s and US LCS ships... and maybe a Zumwalt destroyer each...

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