The Situation in the Ukraine. #27

Put the crack pipe down. You are putting words in my mouth left, right and center.

When you say:

This proves that it was the TELAR unit
obtained from the Ukrainian Army by the rebels

You are saying the rebels shot down this airliner.

The Russian evidence that the so called investigators ignored shows the missile didn't come from a rebel held area at all... there is no reason to believe the rebels had anything to do with this... the missile came from a Ukrainian held area from a Ukrainian air defence battery because Russian batteries even if moved from Russian territory don't use those missile models any more.

To successfully hit a target in flight you would need to know what you are doing like a Ukrainian BUK battery, and totally unlike a group of rebels with no access to actual BUK missile systems. You don't just turn it on and push a button and it shoots things down.

The evidence you speak off doesn't really prove much.

The evidence presented by the Russians shows the missile came from a direction where Ukrainian BUKs were stationed that was not in rebel hands... which is all the evidence you need to see the whole investigation is a witch hunt against Russia.

The Rebels did indeed shoot down MH17, but they were tricked into it.

Bullshit... they would no more be able to use an old model BUK SAM system as I would... there is no shoot down an aircraft wizard help system where you just push a button and it does everything for you.

International law wise that plane never should have been over an active warzone, the air Traffic Controllers told it not to divert from that flight route and they should have ordered it to do so.

Would that be the air traffic controller who is still on holiday? Nothing suspicious there either is there?

The Rebels believed it was a military transport plane, in their mind who in the hell would let a civi airliner fly over a warzone. They did not think keiv would go this far, the day it was downed the rebels where actively bragging on social media they brought down a large transport plane, once they realized what it was.

Bullshit... are these sources the same social media sites with photos of Russian BUK batteries moving from Russia to the Ukraine and then back again afterwards, who said there were no BUK batteries in the region even after youtube footage of a BUK TEL crashing in to a building while driving around... presumably because the driver was drunk.

They deleted everything, So yes the Rebels did fire the missile BUT Ukraine is at fault for sending it there wanting to get those people killed to pin it on Russia and get support. Imo the blame is on Ukraine here.

Fired what?

How did they fire a missile from a BUK not in Russian service for quite a few years?

The Battery was captured from Ukraine, KVS is right when he says this.

So even if we assume this is not bullshit and they captured a battery of BUK... that proves that the Ukrainian government forces had BUK batteries in the area... manned presumably by people trained to operate the system and therefore able to launch said missiles at targets in the air, as opposed to rebels in the field with zero experience with medium range SAM systems.

What a crock of shit... the only reason they bother with this pathetic story is because people in the west are dumb and believe what they are told.

Would expect better from you though SS...

You mean the same guys who showed false flight data of a SU-25 and tried to say it used Air to Air Missiles on the plane?. When SU-25's cannot fly that high. Sorry buddy, Russia's word isn't much evidence here they lied once about it, I cannot believe them because of that in regards to this.

One of the uses of the Su-25 is air interception of low speed targets like helicopters or troop transports or inflight refuelling aircraft... for which its AA-8 air to air missiles are perfectly effective of bringing down even large aircraft.

An Su-25 would not need to climb to the altitude of an aircraft to shoot it down... after launch the missile can climb too you know...

The official position is that a Russian missile battery drove into rebel territory and launch a missile from there and somehow drove back to Russian territory without being spotted by anyone... is that a better story?

It's not hard to use an old Buk System, fact is the Rebels had Russian advisors with them and there was ex-military who lived in those regions that would have easily known how to operate BUK's. there are dozens of ways they could have learned how to use them.

It is not hard to operate an old BUK system... honestly?

Now you are claiming there were Russian advisors there who would have known how to operate a BUK... well know how to operate it enough to know how to launch a missile but not enough how to determine the difference between an airliner with civilian IFF codes and an enemy troop transport... Piss off...

Being biased right not and frankly painfully so.

Yes you are, and you seem to be showing no shame... perhaps you show the same game face when murdering Syrians fighting to free their own country, or assisting the terrorists who burn women in cages for not being their concubines...

The Buk did not come from Russia again it was captured from Ukrainian forces.

Based on the word of people who are currently very anti Russian and want to blame Russia and the rebels whom they are shelling repeatedly in an obvious case of ongoing war crimes...

Ukraine did indeed have BUK's around to shoot at Russian Aircraft and the rebels did capture it from them. Like it or not the rebels gunned it down not on purpose, but got baited into it. That doesn't make them responsible they may have fired the missile but Ukraine played them into doing so.

Hahaha... so they captured these missiles and learned to use them within hours of capturing them... why did they only shoot down one plane?

On the documentary about the incident there were hundreds of civilian aircraft flying through that area during a 24 hour period... obviously not afterwards however... why only shoot down one plane?

Was there a reason they wanted to kill dutch people and australians?

No not at the height they claimed the SU-25 was and the MH17 was. This was a bogus story and they later changed their tune regarding it because they know how silly it was. The BUK missile hit the front of the plane and that Story claimed the SU-25 fired at it from the back, Ukraine doesn't have air to air missiles like that, the story was a lie get over it.

At the time no one knew anything and everything was speculation... the Ukrainians shooting down a plane is as reasonable as any other suggestion at the time.

The R-60MK brought down a Pakistani Atlantic MPA, there is no reason to think it couldn't bring down an airliner too.

It's well known the Russian have advisors in those regions, they do support the rebels. I don't care if they do but don't sit there and pretend like they don't. Again that was just a few of over a dozen ways they could have learned.

Come on, the west tries to make out these are serving Russian personel currently in the Russian military as some putinesque invasion force that the brave Ukrainians are defending themselves from by shelling old men and women in their own country.

Their might be a few Russian nationals in the region helping their neighbours, but they are hardly Frontline Russian shock troops... and they would certainly know fuck all about BUK missile systems... or did you cover medium SAM systems in basic training in the US?

Okay why does their view matter? do you see me saying Russia gave the rebels the BUK, no they did not Russia has nothing to do with this so don't bring up such pointless crap like that.

I am not here to feed your "Russia is the victim" ego.

The official claim is that the Russians did it with a Russian missile brought from Russia... you are the one trying to defend this shit.

Within Hours? who the hell said within hours?. They didn't capture them within hours.

Turkey is receiving S-400 systems now but they wont be operational till fully next year and they are getting the paid instructions on these systems, but no... a few Russian advisors and they could be shooting down planes in no time at all according to your expert opinion.

Then that documentary was a loud of BS, Air space was closed after the MH17 downing.

Indeed it was but in the hours before it was shot down hundreds of aircraft flew through that airspace... why weren't any of them shot down?

I never said the rebels wanted to kill a bunch of innocents, goddam Garry. Now you are just going into some rabid defensive mode.

So the rebels just fire at random with a sophisticated air defence system that can't fire warning shots that they have no training on and figure their situation will be improved if we open fire on anything just passing by?

For all they knew it could have been a Russian plane... they are not nazi psychopaths like the Kiev regime.

I said and you should know words so listen WELL. Ukrainian Air Traffic control told the plane to divert over that area knowing the rebels had the SAM. A few other planes before that did but MH17 was the one that targeted.

And I am saying to you that for the documentary the investigators asked for a list of the aircraft that had flown over that airspace in the last day or two and there were hundreds of planes on that list...

The rebel's thought it was an Aerial Supply Cargo Plane given civilian aircraft should have not been over that airspace. They didn't want to kill any innocent person but got duped into doing so by Ukraine. AGAIN they aren't at fault Ukraine is.

Cargo planes don't fly at that altitude and as I said hundreds of planes had flow through that airspace in the last day or two... why start shooting now?

After it was shot down chances are the rebels disposed of the BUK or handed it over on Russian order's

After Kiev forces shot the plane down they sent the air traffic controller on extended holiday and drove the BUK system away from the area and just denied everything... hoping idiots like you would believe the cock and bull story they fed the investigators... which you seem to have done.



And note the critical factor... the wings on these missiles are long... these are old model SA-11s, rather than the much newer SA-17s the Russians have in service...

Easy to see the difference... on the ground... short fins = SA-17 and long fins = SA-11:

Pause this video at 13 seconds:



and now look at the short finned model:



Which are the current in service models the Russians have. The older missiles above were withdrawn from service in Russia almost ten years ago, but still in use in Ukraine as seen in the video above.

Fragments from the wreckage prove it was a Ukrainian missile used to down the plane.

The case that MH17 was shot down by the Ukr regime is strong since the colour layout of the Malaysian jet is similar to the
Russian presidential jet and from a distance they have a similar size and appearance.

1) It is a fact that Ukr fighter jets were in the vicinity of MH17 when it was shot down. They could have easily made
the confusion. There are witnesses from the ground who observed at least two Ukr jets.

2) The perforations on the cockpit hull pieces is consistent with bullet strafing. If a Buk warhead full of shaped metal
pieces went off in the proximity it would have shredded the hull to the point of falling into pieces. The density of
holes per unit area would have been much higher and would not look like linear 30 mm bullet strafing patterns. The holes
would be essentially randomly distributed. (See earlier in the threads for the image of the MH17 cockpit section).

3) Nobody has produced evidence of a Buk missile launch concurrent with the downing of MH17. The only "evidence" produced is
a doctored photo taken from an apartment block some distance away. Wires have been edited out and the contrast/colour adjusted to
make the rocket plume more apparent. A geo-location of this plume indicates it was a Ukr Tochka-U launch unrelated to MH17.

medo wrote:Buk missile, which shot down MH17 have serial number 886 847379 and was produced in 1986 and was delivered to army unit 20152 in Lvov oblast in the western Ukraine. After the colapse of USSR, missile remain in Lvov oblast and was included in arsenal of Ukrainian army.

It is the Hague kangaroo inquiry that insists that MH17 was brought down by a Buk missile. These idiots pulled out a serial
number from an intact casing thinking they could pin the number on Russia. They failed. But how in hell did the casing
survive in perfectly cylindrical shape falling from several kilometers in the air? The Buk trajectory would have to have been
nearly vertical to reach the altitude of MH17. There is no way the casing would retain its geometry. It would have been
perfectly flattened or smashed to pieces if it fell on some hard edge.

Again missile shot it down from the front it hit MH17 dead on. the only way the SU-25 could have done that was if it was at the same height and fired from the front, Russia at that time claimed. It attacked from the rear, they dropped this story and changed it. Don't try and argue this you are looking silly. The story was a lie.

Funny, you are an expert in BUK medium range SAMs but clearly don't know shit about Air to Air missiles.

The R-60MK is not a tail chaser, it tries to lead the target.... in laymens terms it tries to fly towards where the aircraft will be instead of where the aircraft currently is.

Flying towards where a target currently is means a tail chaser that hits the target up the tail pipe. AA-2s did that and tended to hit the targets tail pipe... which made them rather less effective. Newer missiles like the R-60MK had an algorythm to lead the target and intercept it instead of just tail chase it... of course that is only possible with the R-60M and later models with all aspect homing capacity that might have homed in on the sun glinting off the cockpit transparency.

The missile could have been fired from 4-5km below the altitude of the airliner BTW...

With new information we know it was hit by a much more powerful missile, but the suggestion that a Ukrainian pilot might have shot the plane down in error or on purpose is not as silly as you are suggesting... if you want silly try the Russians driving a missile from their territory into rebel held area to shoot down a plane of no importance to Russia at all and then drive back to Russia without any actual evidence of it ever happening... but also managing to source a local BUK missile while in rebel held territory for the shot... that is silly.

For fucks sake, this is why I find talking to you a chore. Did I say the Russian army deployed mass forces in Ukraine, no I didn't STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH. I said they have advisors which THEY DO. advisors don't mean front line, shock troops.

Of course, invisible advisors with a direct phone link to Putins office that no one has seen or captured... they move freely on moonless nights.... called Chimera...
or more accurately bullshit...

Why do these Ukrainians need Russian advisors? The Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union, it had conscription... most of the local men were army trained... but they could only have Russian advisors to save them... Now if Auslander decided to go and assist could we say that the US military is also supporting the Rebels?

What a headline that would be... imagine the CNN or BBC reporters talking to their man on the ground about the situation and the American accent is right but the things he is saying just seem not right.... is he on the same side as Kiev?  What do you mean no, you don't support those f'ing Nazis... but but but... we have to go to a commercial break right now...

First off a BUK isn't a hard system to use. MH17 had no countermeasures was slow, not realizing it was locked. All the rebels had to do was get a lock and hit free that's NOT HARD. Don't try and playoff doing this is some super hard thing, The rebels had more than enough time to learn how to use the BUK. A BUK isn't an S-400, your point here is nothing but desperation.

Oh, dear god... yeah, you just put the engine in neutral, and turn on the radar screen... look there are all the planes in the air space at the moment... oh... that is a big one... lets shoot it down... you are telling me you are through with me?

I have tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, but suggesting anyone can get into a BUK system light it up and open fire and successfully hit an aircraft with it...

Tell me, because the story was that they captured a TEL but it didn't say they captured the entire battery... I could understand them trying to shoot down a Flanker or Frogfoot attacking them, but why a high flying civilian airliner.... and don't try to tell me they didn't know what it was... they are FUCKING EXPERTS.  Putin hand picked these guys...

A Russian aircraft in Ukranian airspace, Russia never sent a single jet into Ukraine's Airspace lol! Okay buttercup, get real. Again I explained this to you three times, they thought it was a military cargo plane from Ukraine. Civilian aircraft aren't allowed over active warzones where even the remote risk of AA is.

Buttercup is it?  ...OK, the Russian and Ukrainian air traffic controllers continued to cooperate and planes were flying over that area continuously... they only stopped when this plane was shot down... and you have given your own perfect counter example... if Civilian aircraft aren't allowed over active warzones where even the remote risk of AA is then why was this and the hundreds of other aircraft before it diverted into this airspace? sugarplum?

Yes, they do fly at that height, it depends. Why fire now? who knows maybe because they decided to. Go ask the rebels I am not a dam mind reader. Chances are they only had limited shots, Russia wouldn't supply the Rebels with long-range AA missiles. I doubt they would have captured many spares.

You are the one claiming they did it, they said they didn't do it... the burden of proof is on the accuser and those that believe.

Naw buddy you just blinded by your emotions, You just can't accept the truth and are coming up with bogus excuses to defend it. the Rebels downed it, I really don't care if you want to sit there and whine. The facts are facts.

The facts that prove what weapon did this prove the Ukrainian military did it. The evidence on the ground or more precisely proves it was a Ukrainian military BUK model missile... we really don't know what manouvers the missile was performing for the intercept, the angle of the fragments tell us nothing about where the missile came from... in the same way that the last few manouvers of a car tell us where the driver originally came from.

Congratulations Garry it was indeed a Ukrainian missile. I'm slow clapping right now for you in person, in a sarcastic sense. It was a missile the rebels captured from Ukraine. Which I had been saying this entire time, I have no IDEA why you keep trying to tell me "It wasn't a Russian missile but a Ukarian one". You jackass, I never said or claimed it was.

Now I am a jackass. Because you moron, you and the Ukrainians are saying the rebels stole a ukrainian missile... learned to use a BUK air defence missile system and then for no good reason or for reasons very counter to their cause shot down a civilian airliner.

What I am saying is that a much easier explanation is that a Ukrainian BUK battery fired the missile. The rebels would benefit nothing by killing people flying past this war crime of a war. The Ukrainians need attention... they need international attention because they are beggars living off scraps and donations and blaming the rebels for killing some dutch people and some aussies is good for them... it is not like they are not already murdering innocent civilians with air strikes and artillery shells and sniper bullets anyway.

This conversation is done, maybe when you grow up and can look past your bias we can continue but for now, this will go nowhere.

Typical whiny westerner... tens of thousands of people have died in that region over the last half decade and all you give a shit about are less than 300 people on their holidays... you are not interested in what really happened... it was all Putins fault... more sanctions on Russia.

2) The perforations on the cockpit hull pieces is consistent with bullet strafing. If a Buk warhead full of shaped metal
pieces went off in the proximity it would have shredded the hull to the point of falling into pieces. The density of
holes per unit area would have been much higher and would not look like linear 30 mm bullet strafing patterns. The holes
would be essentially randomly distributed. (See earlier in the threads for the image of the MH17 cockpit section).

AFAIK the aircraft did break into several pieces, but the fragments inside the aircraft and the crew show it was a BUK missile.

And it was no accident. You just have to look at the coordinated media campaign launched five seconds after the plane was brought down.

The aircraft was directed by Ukrainian ATC, so they put the plane there themselves... and now the ATC in question is still on holiday...

I forgot to note that the two Kiev regime jets in the vicinity of MH17 were not Su-25 but Mig-29. The story about
the flight ceiling of the Su-25 is an obvious diversionary ploy. Banderastan has much more than Su-25 models.

It is interesting that the alleged origin point of the supposed Buk missile came from close to the Kiev regime forces frontline. At the
time (2014) Snizhne was close to regime controlled territory. The rebels did a good job of pushing back regime forces afterwards.

Naturally the yanquis never offer any other evidence of the launch point aside from their assertion.

Their quislings in Holland lap up this crap and actually try to treat it like real evidence rather than hearsay which it is.