Even by their own Radar information they never made any claims about a MIG. I don't deny a SU-25 was in the air but it fired no missile at MH17 and don't try and bring up some Fairy Tale Mig excuse, that has zero ounces of credibility.
I didn't say they did. Also if you admit an Su-25 was in the air when an airliner was shot down then isn't it therefore reasonable to think it might be related to the incident... either an original target for the rebels or the purpetrator... what altitude was the Frogfoot operating at... certainly not at low altitude because that wouldn't be safe.
And if the rebels could operate this missiles why would they engage a very high flying aircraft using civilian IFF codes and ignore a Ukrainian military aircraft that might retaliate to their missile launch by bombing them?
And that is assuming the Rebels even knew how to operate the BUK.
You guys love to denounce anything that makes Russia look bad has "Western Propaganda" but immediately twist facts and make up silly ideas like a Mig Shot it down with an Air to Air Missiles. When it's a boldface farce.
What... the west is allowed to make up anything, but Russia can only speak the truth... sounds like you are more of a Russia/Putin patriot than I am...
When no one knows what has happened there is a thing called speculation about what might have happened... normally such things are based on known facts like a Su-25 being in the air at the time, and Ukrainian BUK batteries also being present, not fairy tales like Russian units driving into rebel held territory and launching an attack and then withdrawing without being seen at all... but even that fairy tale is proven wrong because the wrong missile was used.
That is one of the problems with this forum hands down you prefer to bury the truth if it makes Russia look bad. I accept the truth no matter how bad it makes anyone look.
No, your problem with this forum is that we know the western definition of the truth is anything that makes Russia look bad.
Snowden, Assange, Manning... these people would be heros if their actions had exposed only Russian and Chinese and North Korean secrets, but they exposed evidence of western governmental criminality that has been brushed back under the carpet and jumped upon... no peace prizes for these guys... the problem I have is not that they are fellow pro Russia pro putin fanboys, these guys are patriots... they didn't expose the serious criminal activity of the west to make it appear evil or to help China or Russia... they probably thought when such things were revealed the west would be shocked and action would be taken to put those people responsible in jail and make sure it doesn't happen again... instead they get jail time and the war criminals keep their pensions and medals and badges... it is not how the hollywood movie normally ends... and of course to rub salt into the wound you know hollywood will make movies about it but the real heros of these stories will be Russian agents.
Again it wasn't a Russian Buk, how many dam times have I said this to you? over Five already I think. Do you have the memory of a gold fish or something.
But the investigation claims it was a Russian BUK... you are being a bit selective about what you accept and what you don't... the Russians are therefore lying about some things but not others... would be interesting in hearing from you how you determine the lie from the truth.
I suppose those with knowledge of military matters would assume that in the case of being shot down by an airplane, first an air to air missile was fired from afar, and then the attacking airplane finished it off with cannon fire.
Well the problem is that a normal interception of an aircraft entering restricted airspace it is normal practise to fire cannon rounds as a warning, but as few interceptors use tracer ammo this generally is redundant, and in this case they lured the aircraft into that airspace on purpose so it likely wasn't a legitimate interception with aircraft safety in mind... the 30mm cannon of the Su-25 has an enormous rate of fire and is not really optimised for air to air use, so in a climb a long burst could have been fired... when I say long burst however the aircraft carries 250 rounds of ready to fire ammo which would be less than 3-4 seconds of continuous firing.
Thus I do not believe in the "shot down by a Buk" theory. It could have been easily proven if fragments of the warhead were found in the airplane and passenger corpses. That they didn't find anything, or that the elements were of another type that would rule out the Buk makes me think it was not a Buk at all.
Actually the specific fragments of the old model BUK used by the Ukrainians and no longer in Russian service were found in the crew and evidence of large numbers penetrating the front of the fuselage of the recovered parts of the aircraft prove it was hit by a BUK.
While I agree that an Su-25 could have done this if the evidence supported it, I don't think the evidence shown does.
I think a BUK missile was launched by a Ukrainian BUK battery on the ground... the aircraft had been redirected to a different path so their new flightpath was not something that was expected. I think the investigation could not hide the fragments found in the bodies of the crew and so had no choice but to accept a BUK missile shot down the plane, what I think happened is that the Ukrainians have fudged the numbers and lied to the investigators and convinced them the BUK came from a rebel held area and then tried hard to convince them... even to the point of getting elliot higgins to supply false made up information about Russian batteries moving in and out of Ukrainian territory without being noticed at the time. Their big fuck up was that they didn't realise the Russians had replaced all their old SA-11 missiles with SA-17 missiles that are much more modern and much more capable (can shoot down ARMs for instance) and use a different warhead fragment shape that is distinctive enough to prove it wasn't used in this case).
If the Ukrainians had shot down the airliner with a Buk, this would have no mattered at all as it would have been blamed in Russia. That no fragments were ever presented as evidence seems the evidence was unacceptable.
They tried to blame Russia with a cock and bull story about Russian batteries moving in and out of the Ukraine to shoot down aircraft... because the only reason the all powerful Ukrainian military forces couldn't defeat the little rebel forces was because of enormous Russian support.
The footage of 14.5m anti tank rifles from WWII being used by the rebels and also 23mm calibre tubes added to the barrels of their rifles to launch 23mm cannon shells pulled from cannon rounds instead of 40mm underbarrel grenade launchers show you how well supplied the rebels are by the Russian forces... it seems like there isn't a functioning black market there... muslims in the Yugoslavian conflicts were better supplied than these Ukrainians, but lets not go into that because they had full western support and assistance, where as the Ukrainians being bombed and shelled by their own US installed government don't surprisingly enough.
The fact that there's a living witness, an Ukrainian airforce technician that fled to Russia that claimed a Sukhoi 25 took off loaded with an AA missile and came back without it, and that the pilot a captain Voloshin, commited suicide under mysterious circumstances only further reinforces the suspicions that it was a an air to air shooting.
Again, this is important information those in the west choose to totally ignore, as I said, I think it was a Ukrainian BUK, but I can't say I have all the evidence in front of me to discount other theories.
Russia knew they did this but their data will not be accepted, so I guess they played along with the Buk theory and came up with the Almaz Antey firing experiment because they knew eventually this fake version would also incriminate the Ukrainians.
Their problem is that the radar coverage is largely civilian with a low radar rotation rate... so a mach 3 plus missile climbing from the ground to about 10km altitude might not even appear on such a radar screen. Most civilian airliners have transponders that emit an identification signal to boost their visibility on civilian radars to make them easier to track... BUK missiles don't carry such transponders.
So in the end they will blame Poroshenko as a scapegoat or will admit the Boeing was shot down by Ukraine with a SAM, and will claim it was an accident. More likely, it will get swept under the rug and remain a unsolved mystery for decades unless the regime in Kiev falls.
Sadly, It think they will cling to their mantra and these four people they have identified will get the blame and be given jail sentences in absentia. In a few decades time depending upon what happens the truth might come out, but it will be an inconvenient truth that most major western news agencies probably wont even publish anyway.
Perhaps the next shooting rampage in the US will lead to a ban on semi autos like it did here... pretty much the tiny gun owning portion of the population was resigned to not being able to complain or be heard and have handed over their guns, but in the US this could mean civil war...
I think the case that 30 mm rounds were used on MH17 is solid. That automatically destroys the propaganda narrative about Russian/rebel Buk involvement.
Well at the altitude the aircraft was operating at means it must have been an aircraft, so you are right to disbelieve claims rebels in the Donbass could operate a BUK system from the 1980s that wouldn't be automated like a more modern system would be today... not that I think just anyone could operate them anyway.