Project 949A: Oscar-II

Austin wrote:Any one got access to full Janes Report ?

No, but did read that it will only be applied to 4 of the 8 Oscar still on the books which in fact equals those presently operational.

George1 wrote:

GarryB wrote:So they will be fitted for 72 missiles... that suggests 9 UKSK bins.

That should allow 72 of the Onyx, the Brahmos, the Zircon (when it is ready), the Kalibr and Klub land attack missiles and of course the Klub anti ship and anti sub missiles or a combination of these missiles.

i dont see any info about weapon upgrade or modernization. They just say that after the repairs, submarine's service life is expected to be extended by 3.5 years.

to date they haven't finished a proper modernization of an Oscar. They are working on upgrading some to that level last I heard but those aren't done yet. That was was just standard repair and maintenance is all.

72 missiles?! Thats what you call a missile saturation attack... With so many "surprises" it could wipe out not one but 2 carrier battlegroups for sure....

GarryB wrote:So they will be fitted for 72 missiles... that suggests 9 UKSK bins.

That should allow 72 of the Onyx, the Brahmos, the Zircon (when it is ready), the Kalibr and Klub land attack missiles and of course the Klub anti ship and anti sub missiles or a combination of these missiles.

I'd expect that Mashinostroyeniya and Novator are developing a multi-missile canister launcher insert for installation into the existing P-700 tubes, designed to handle Oniks and Kalibre (and hopefully Zircon). The oft-quoted missile count of 72 for a deep-modernised Pr 949A suggests that a P-700 tube is large enough to hold 3x smaller missiles.

GarryB wrote:So they will be fitted for 72 missiles... that suggests 9 UKSK bins.

We again need to containerize the information given.

1. 8 Antey are in service another Antey Oryol is going into service by december of by February.

2. Another 2 Antey sub are in kind of repairs and modernization .Repairs  do not include any change in weapon systems.

3. I can repeat that  repairs or modernization do not include any weapon changes in Antey submarines.

4.We should try to analyze that what weapons will be fitted in Yasen-M 885M submarines. We can get the hint of 949A and 949AM weapons
  from the weapons that will be fitted on Yasen-M. Whenever kazan submarine start its firing test. I think the 3rd phase of tests , then only we can asses (some sort of info) on the weapons deployed on 949A and 949AM subs.

5. It is clear that that 949A and 949AM submarines do not have any changes in their weapon systems.
   The changes are in life cycles , radio  technical means and may be some communication assets.

6. Last of all if the information about UKSK launcher replacement was true that tass or any other news agency must have discretely mentioned
it in Submarine upgrade. There will be a major change if  normal Granit containers/launch tubes are replaced by UKSK tubes.
 George1 has also explicitly mentioned that no information is given about weapon changes.

7. I think we need to wait for some time before Kazan sub actually start firing tests then we will know whether UKSK tubes are used in
future submarine tests or not. The date of testing of Kazan sub is still not finalized but I guess it could be around
December 2017. That is still 1 full year remaining. Last of all UKSK tubes are used for Calibre-NK missiles(Correct me if AM wrong on this).


8.Recently Russia completed building 3-4 project 636 submarines all fitted with 8 tubes/1 container of UKSK. This information is reliable.A new contract for pacific fleet has been signed recently for Project 636 submarines.These submarines are all fitted with UKSK launchers. This is reliable information.

I forgot to add one more point.

1. Zircon hypersonic missile is also in testing phase .May be by 2017 they will complete the development and testing of Zircon.
    There was some news about Novator and NPO Mash collaborating. This does not mean that 949 submarines are getting UKSK launchers.
   
   
2. Zircon may be part of UKSK upgrade. That is all I can say at this point.Other forum users can comment on this.

3. But UKSK is not part of 949A submarine upgrade. UKSK is also not part of Yasen-M submarine launch tubes.  Zircon deployment(Which
   ships/subs will get Ziron) is different question altogether. We need to discuss this separately .

But here we are only discussing about the 949A weapons upgrade.We can finally say for sure that UKSK launchers are not going into 949A Upgrade or Yasen-M weapons system.

I thought it's fairly well established that 3* UKSK tubes can fit inside a Granit tube -> 24* Granit tubes = 72* UKSK tubes.
Also that missiles have been tested with inclined launchers.

UKSK is also not part of Yasen-M submarine launch tube

Really? I thought that was pretty much the major point of the Yasens?

hoom wrote:Really? I thought that was pretty much the major point of the Yasens?

Well I also dunno what missiles are placed on yasen. I also initially thought UKSK launchers were being placed on yasen.
But times have changed .. after reading media reports

See I only said that there is no credible information that suggests Yasen will have UKSK.
I think severodvinsk sub has UKSK .. but the program for yasen-M does not include UKSK launchers.

Till now we have not seen any discrete information about the weapon system of yasen-m. We know that Borei subs have bulava missiles.
This is clear cut info. But what weapons are been installed into yasen-m that is anybodys guess atleast right now.

gaurav wrote:..........

8.Recently Russia completed building 3-4 project 636 submarines all fitted with 8 tubes/1 container of UKSK. This information is reliable.A new contract for pacific fleet has been signed recently for Project 636 submarines.These submarines are all fitted with UKSK launchers. This is reliable information.

I don't think that 636 Kilo subs have UKSK launchers. UKSK would mean that they have vertical launch cells. They can launch cruise missiles but that is done trough torpedo tubes.

hoom wrote:I thought it's fairly well established that 3* UKSK tubes can fit inside a Granit tube -> 24* Granit tubes = 72* UKSK tubes.
Also that missiles have been tested with inclined launchers.

I think that this is correct and I read something similar already. 3 cruise missiles per Granit tube using adapters. There will be no removal of Granit launchers or installation of UKSK launchers on Oscars/Anteis.

Also you guys are conflating acronym UKSK with cruise missiles. UKSK refers to type of missile launcher not the missiles that are launched from them.

GarryB wrote:UKSK is a standard missile launcher for the Russian Navy.


Why not fit it to existing submarines?

The upgrades for Kirov all mention 10 UKSK for a total of 80 missiles... they already have Granit launchers... why replace Granit launchers in the Kirovs with UKSK bins and not do the same with the Oscar class SSGNs?

A tube that can launch an Onyx will also launch a Kalibr and a Klub and soon a Zircon.

Replacing launch tubes on ship and submarine are two very different things. Keeping launchers on subs saves huge amounts of time and money without any noticeable downsides. They will still pack a mighty punch.

As for Oscars they are higher priority vessels for RU Navy than cruisers (all subs are) so they want them back in the action faster.

Also Granit launcher with adapter should be able to launch all three types of missiles. There is no difference in launch procedure between them.

PapaDragon wrote:

GarryB wrote:UKSK is a standard missile launcher for the Russian Navy.


Why not fit it to existing submarines?

The upgrades for Kirov all mention 10 UKSK for a total of 80 missiles... they already have Granit launchers... why replace Granit launchers in the Kirovs with UKSK bins and not do the same with the Oscar class SSGNs?

A tube that can launch an Onyx will also launch a Kalibr and a Klub and soon a Zircon.

Replacing launch tubes on ship and submarine are two very different things. Keeping launchers on subs saves huge amounts of time and money without any noticeable downsides. They will still pack a mighty punch.

As for Oscars they are higher priority vessels for RU Navy than cruisers (all subs are) so they want them back in the action faster.

Also Granit launcher with adapter should be able to launch all three types of missiles. There is no difference in launch procedure between them.

72 missiles salvo should deal with whole AC group...

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

72 missiles salvo should deal with whole AC group...

AC group with zero AM capability?

GarryB wrote:UKSK is a standard missile launcher for the Russian Navy.


Why not fit it to existing submarines?

The upgrades for Kirov all mention 10 UKSK for a total of 80 missiles... they already have Granit launchers... why replace Granit launchers in the Kirovs with UKSK bins and not do the same with the Oscar class SSGNs?

1. There are only 2 Kirovs planned for Russian navy. Petr and Nakhimov.Ther are no more Kirovs in Russian navy. I do not think Kirov class is/(will be upgraded) using UKSK launchers.Do yu think that Kuznetsov will have Granit launchers replaced by UKSK launchers. Kuz will never have Granit launcher removed.That is the best guess from my side.
Russian industry does not support adpaters. I dont think there are any adapters for Granit launchers. At the most it will be for testing mode not for actual deployment.Adapter is a media hype.It is also some experiments carriedd out by various Russian companies at the most ..nothing more.
If the users have more information they can obviously comment on this adapter trials for Granit launchers.

2. When do we thnk that Nakhimov will start firing trials after all its equipment trials are over. It will not be before 2020 -2022 .. Kazan sub is the only sub which will start firing trials soon Possibly by end of 2017. I suggest Patience be better than valor
Yasen-m is much bigger project than Kirov class. Hence we should wait fro these Yasen-M trials and then conclude as what Russian navy is
standard weapons are . UKSK is also a standard launcher but it is used only in small ships, corvettes.

I don't think that 636 Kilo subs have UKSK launchers. UKSK would mean that they have vertical launch cells. They can launch cruise missiles but that is done through torpedo tubes.

Correct Indeed. I do not have specs for latest project 636 subs but it looks like you are correct on this.

George1 wrote:Russian Northern Fleet sub launches cruise missile at target in Novaya Zemlya

MOSCOW, October 17. /TASS/. The Smolensk nuclear-powered submarine of Russia’s Northern Fleet has launched a cruise missile at a target in the Novaya Zemlya archipelago, in the Arctic, the Northern Fleet’s spokesman Vadim Serga has said.

"The missile was launched on October 16 against a combined coastal target. The Granit cruise missile was fired from a surface position in high latitudes of the Barents Sea. For the first time ever the missile was used against a combination of targets deep inside the Severny (Northern) island of the Novaya Zemlya archipelago," he said.

The missile launch was part of the final series of combat training exercises due in 2016, Serga said, adding that the crew displayed "professionalism and high level of training."

All in all Russia has built eleven submarines of project 949A Antey. At the moment eight are on active duty. The Antey’s displacement is 24,000 tonnes. Each carries 24 launchers for Granit cruise missiles and six torpedo tubes.


More:
http://tass.com/defense/906870

It's a test of the second capability of the granit, nuclear strike against costal target ? I have never heard of land attack capabilities with HE warhead.

A1RMAN wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

72 missiles salvo should deal with whole AC group...

AC group with zero AM capability?

With 72 supersonic missiles AC group can deal? Really?

gaurav wrote:.............
Yasen-m is much bigger project than Kirov class. Hence we should wait fro these Yasen-M trials and then conclude as what Russian navy is
standard weapons are . UKSK is also a standard launcher but it is used only in small ships, corvettes.
.............

Thing is we have seen satellite pictures of Nakhimonov with Granit launchers already cut out and orders for UKSK launchers for it have been published a while back.

And as for Yasen subs, one of the reasons entire class was reworked was probably to add UKSK launchers. Standardization is huge priority for RU Navy so it is very unlikely that they would skip entire class of nuke subs. Also let's not forget that Granit missiles are not really fresh product.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

A1RMAN wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

72 missiles salvo should deal with whole AC group...

AC group with zero AM capability?

With 72 supersonic missiles AC group can deal? Really?

I think it can. This is completely hypothetical because we don't know the real capabilities of their AM systems and actual missiles. But AC group can be pretty big - with a lot of planes and AA ships - and to sink, let's say 20 ships, is a huge task. With conventional warheads, of course.