Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+21
JohninMK
Isos
Hole
hoom
0nillie0
SeigSoloyvov
George1
franco
MMBR
eehnie
Werewolf
Mike E
Viktor
KomissarBojanchev
TR1
collegeboy16
medo
Stealthflanker
GarryB
etaepsilonk
d_taddei2
25 posters

    Soviet era reserve vehicles.

    d_taddei2
    d_taddei2


    Posts : 2593
    Points : 2769
    Join date : 2013-05-11
    Location : Scotland UK

    Soviet era reserve vehicles. - Page 5 Empty Re: Soviet era reserve vehicles.

    Post  d_taddei2 Tue May 17, 2022 8:24 pm

    Effective range of these 23mm guns is around 2.5-3km although the rounds do travel many kilometres more. They will be useful for the cheaper drones Ukraine are using, although the TB2 which are armed will most likely be firing from a range well away from such anti aircraft guns. But if it does find itself within range it will be shredded. There is multiple different upgrades for shilka and zu-23-2 added better radar, better fire control and automation, and some add MANPADS or Strela 10. Although you will most likely find these systems are better a fire support for troops which these systems do very well and cheaply. The zu-23-2 have been mounted on trucks, MTLB, BTR, BMP-1 over the years to provide a self propelled fire support vehicle with the added bonus of being able to shoot at helicopters etc. Also great at shooting at high rise buildings due to elevation of the system. The zsu-57-2 has also been used as a fire support vehicle to devastating effect. There was a video on YouTube where they are using on an exercise brutal. Not sure if it's still on there it was from the late 1990's

    MMBR likes this post

    lancelot
    lancelot


    Posts : 1309
    Points : 1311
    Join date : 2020-10-18

    Soviet era reserve vehicles. - Page 5 Empty Re: Soviet era reserve vehicles.

    Post  lancelot Tue May 17, 2022 9:09 pm

    The only Pantsir systems I saw photos of were the ones stuck in the mud. I think they need to put Pantsir back in a tracked chassis.
    Maybe send some of the upgraded Tunguska into Ukraine.

    d_taddei2 likes this post

    flamming_python
    flamming_python


    Posts : 6989
    Points : 7067
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Soviet era reserve vehicles. - Page 5 Empty Re: Soviet era reserve vehicles.

    Post  flamming_python Tue May 17, 2022 10:43 pm

    lancelot wrote:The only Pantsir systems I saw photos of were the ones stuck in the mud. I think they need to put Pantsir back in a tracked chassis.
    Maybe send some of the upgraded Tunguska into Ukraine.

    They have sent upgraded Tunguskas into the Ukraine

    A couple even broke down and were captured
    avatar
    limb


    Posts : 793
    Points : 811
    Join date : 2020-09-17

    Soviet era reserve vehicles. - Page 5 Empty Re: Soviet era reserve vehicles.

    Post  limb Tue May 17, 2022 10:50 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    lancelot wrote:The only Pantsir systems I saw photos of were the ones stuck in the mud. I think they need to put Pantsir back in a tracked chassis.
    Maybe send some of the upgraded Tunguska into Ukraine.

    They have sent upgraded Tunguskas into the Ukraine

    A couple even broke down and were captured

    We don't know if they were actually captured.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 33954
    Points : 34472
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Soviet era reserve vehicles. - Page 5 Empty Re: Soviet era reserve vehicles.

    Post  GarryB Wed May 18, 2022 12:46 am

    There must be hundreds if not thousands of drone being used in ukraine battle. Why not send the shilka in to blow them out of the sky on the cheap (sa missiles cost way more)?

    Small targets are difficult targets for AA guns that don't have guided shells or airburst shells...

    The new command detonation 30mm rounds would be better.

    What would probably be cheapest would be an anti drone drone that can fly around the battlefield and approach enemy drones and shoot them down with a short range weapon like a shotgun or a grenade launcher firing grenades that can explode on command or at a fixed distance from the grenade launcher.

    Would actually be quite fun, you could connect its control system to the local air defence network and so you fly the drone around... you want good speed so you can cover territory quickly as needed.... having radar information from local air defence vehicles should tell you were the local drones are and also having ground forces scanning for drones too.
    When an enemy drone is detected you get a warning and so your drone flys to the area by itself and then you use thermal optics and normal video optics to find the target drone and just fly straight at it... a laser rangefinder will tell you when it is close enough and a double tap from your shotgun should get you a kill for a few dollars at most.

    Firing from 15 metres means you will get a spread of pellets of about 80cm or so with each shot so your chances of hits should be good.

    A relatively slow closing speed could allow multiple hits to ensure destruction... a belt fed shotgun would allow the best flight persistance with a mix of buckshot and say number 3 pellets.

    The buckshot would be heavy enough to damage hard structures in the drone while the number 3 shot is small and would have a nice dense pattern so very light drones will get multiple hits where a buckshot round might not get any hits at all on small targets.

    You can't really control the pattern of projectiles from a shotgun, so a 1m circle of hits with only about 8-12 projectiles in a buckshot load a small target might be missed but with 200 pellets in a number 3 shot even a small target should get several hits each shot... and so just keep shooting till it goes down.

    MMBR and Broski like this post

    avatar
    ALAMO


    Posts : 2144
    Points : 2146
    Join date : 2014-11-25

    Soviet era reserve vehicles. - Page 5 Empty Re: Soviet era reserve vehicles.

    Post  ALAMO Wed May 18, 2022 6:50 am

    I still would love to see how a modern high caliber bore artillery would work as anti-drone one scratch
    Watching someone who is using some kind of weaponry is a very smart move.
    Iranians pioneered in unmanned warfare, they are using thousands of drones of different classes - hats off gents!
    And they still evolve a 100mm gun system for anti-air purposes.
    That thing can easily reach 13 km in high and 20+ in distance. It is much above the attack envelope of any drone.
    A 100mm round can be easily used for making extremely powerful smart ammo, with programmable options, lots of fragments, a big warhead, one can even consider some kind of trajectory correction ...
    One shoot one kill principle wouldn't be hard to implement here.
    Guns can be fully automatic. Costs close to nothing. You can make a barrier linear type of defense echelon with it, with multiplied search&tracking systems, fully passive.
    Just put a dozen around any facility, and watch the drones falling down in flames.

    d_taddei2 likes this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 33954
    Points : 34472
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Soviet era reserve vehicles. - Page 5 Empty Re: Soviet era reserve vehicles.

    Post  GarryB Wed May 18, 2022 7:06 am

    Drones are still relatively new in the sense that solutions to them are still being worked on.

    There are enough different types of drones for no one solution to be good for everything.

    The 23mm rounds of the Shilka were replaced with 30mm cannon shells from the Tunguska to extend the effective engagement range and to add HE power to the rounds.

    The next step because of drones and cruise missiles that cannon rounds will just blow past without direct hits and direct hits are not easy even with ballistic computers.

    Air burst shells and guided shells are more expensive but in comparison to standard rounds which might require thousands to be fired for each hit scored, a single air burst round might be enough for a kill so even if it costs 10 times more than standard shells it works out cheaper and more cost effective.

    In terms of large calibre shells I do like the idea of the Iranian 100mm guns... but why develop a separate branch and type of ammo?

    A 152mm gun like Coalition, is capable firing at a wide range of angles and full 360 degree traverse capability.

    The rounds don't need to be missiles... sometimes just small fins for a small turn in flight to get closer to the target for the HE fragmentation charge to do the rest... it would be good for use against ground targets too.

    With 70km range rounds and a CEP of 10m or less means a HE Frag round with perhaps a 10kgs bursting charge and 35kgs of ball bearings and shrapnel dispersed sideways and forward in a cone would make it a good dual purpose anti drone, anti helicopter and anti troops on the ground round.

    Of course an anti drone drone with a shotgun or airburst grenade launcher would also be useful as would air burst 30mm and 57mm rounds, and of course the jammers would be handy to use too.

    No one solution can be relied upon... but a 152mm round for tiny battlefield drones dropping grenades on troops is overkill.... a small drone of their own that can fly around and shoot down enemy drones would be cheap and useful.

    Air management is going to be tricky because you don't want to be jamming and shooting down your own drones either.

    Perhaps even a heavy strongly built drone that rams enemy drones to take them out could be designed too.
    avatar
    ALAMO


    Posts : 2144
    Points : 2146
    Join date : 2014-11-25

    Soviet era reserve vehicles. - Page 5 Empty Re: Soviet era reserve vehicles.

    Post  ALAMO Wed May 18, 2022 7:42 am

    I suppose they do have a new type of ammo for it, as they claim 15+km altitude and 25km+ range for it - that is much better than any known 100×695 mm round.
    d_taddei2
    d_taddei2


    Posts : 2593
    Points : 2769
    Join date : 2013-05-11
    Location : Scotland UK

    Soviet era reserve vehicles. - Page 5 Empty Re: Soviet era reserve vehicles.

    Post  d_taddei2 Tue May 31, 2022 1:43 am

    ALAMO wrote:I still would love to see how a modern high caliber bore artillery would work as anti-drone one scratch
    Watching someone who is using some kind of weaponry is a very smart move.
    Iranians pioneered in unmanned warfare, they are using thousands of drones of different classes - hats off gents!
    And they still evolve a 100mm gun system for anti-air purposes.
    That thing can easily reach 13 km in high and 20+ in distance. It is much above the attack envelope of any drone.
    A 100mm round can be easily used for making extremely powerful smart ammo, with programmable options, lots of fragments, a big warhead, one can even consider some kind of trajectory correction ...
    One shoot one kill principle wouldn't be hard to implement here.
    Guns can be fully automatic. Costs close to nothing. You can make a barrier linear type of defense echelon with it, with multiplied search & tracking systems, fully passive.
    Just put a dozen around any facility, and watch the drones falling down in flames.


    the Iranian Sa-ir 100mm AD system is fully automatic and self loading holding 4-5 rounds. its a pretty impressive upgrade for what the original was. the plus points for such a system is range inc altitude range and size of shell. as i stated in the past it wouldnt take much to make and EMP/EW shell setting of a pulse or electronic wave frying/scrambling drones electrics and they would some be heading south into the ground. or large shells could be even easier developed to hold better types of shrapnel, the 100mm guns already use proximity fuses for aircraft, however drones a little trickier but certainly not too hard to develop so their is potential the Iranian article i read suggested they would be fielded in batteries of 8-12 guns spread out using radar guidance and auto tracking. the article also mentioned that the guns could also be used as artillery guns firing HE-FRAG rounds onto troops positions, and could even be used in direct fire role. i guess this would be similar to what the germans did in WW2 using flak guns to fire into buildings, bushes, tree lines etc. the only other improvement i could on top of all this would to make a self propelled on a large truck or tracked vehicle to improve mobility and set up times.

    i was hoping Iran would have given us a demonstration of the system working along with Bahman truck armed with twin 57mm guns this when they released a statement seemed to have better stats than the normal S-60 gun. And the Mesbah 1 basically an upgraded fire control and automation of the Zu-23-2 but using four systems combined making 8 barrels it claims it can be used to shoot down missiles a bit like CIWS. the mesbah footage is pretty grainy (3rd clip). and Bahman appears in the last clip. the pictures show the auto load system of sa-ir. and the Mesbah-1 in a couple of pics, i know its also been placed on a flat bed truck as well. the last pic is a 6 barrelled Zu-23-2 (3 systems combined) although this doesnt seem to be designed with automation and FCS etc etc like the Mesbah-1. enjoy.

    only a few clips of it on youtube.









    Soviet era reserve vehicles. - Page 5 Saeer_10

    Soviet era reserve vehicles. - Page 5 Mesbah10

    Soviet era reserve vehicles. - Page 5 Mesbah10

    Soviet era reserve vehicles. - Page 5 Zu-23-11




    Sponsored content


    Soviet era reserve vehicles. - Page 5 Empty Re: Soviet era reserve vehicles.

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sat Aug 20, 2022 4:20 am