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    Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:24 pm

    Arrow wrote:Russia still has no AESA radars in service. And in the West, it's been standard for many years.

    Another lie.

    Pantsir S2 and SM use AESA modules. Radar on stereguishy and Gorshkov are AESA. Nebo SVU/M are AESA. l band modules on Su-35 are AESA, etc.

    NPO Istok who makes the GaAS modules made well over 20,000 since 2007. Su-57 has AESA and so far at least 6 flying models of N036 are in use/testing.
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    Post  Arrow on Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:36 pm

    Irbis radar from Su-35S is PESA.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Nov 24, 2018 5:44 pm

    Arrow wrote:Irbis radar from Su-35S is PESA.

    It's nose radar is PESA, but the leading edge of it's wings are L-band AESA's.
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    Post  hoom on Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:04 am

    Ka-27M has AESA.
    20380 hasn't got AESA though, only 20385/6 & 22800s from the 3rd hull will.
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    Post  Hole on Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:24 am

    If your PESA (Irbis) is as good or even better then western AESA´s - why "waist" the money?
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    Post  hoom on Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:52 am

    BTW Voronezh early warning radars are also AESA.
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    Post  Isos on Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:11 am

    They are working on ceramic transmiters/receivers for radars.

    https://www.niipp.ru/catalog/detail.php?ID=245

    And an image to show how fast they are working.

    Russian PESA and AESA Radars - Page 6 Main-q10

    Comment found on quora that suggest with such tech a radar for mig-35 could have a power of 18kW on par with Irbis -E

    Here is the website with those same exact mmics A micro submodule in that chart is about 300 mW since the T/R module has 64 of these its 19200 or 19.2 watts per module and regarding that image there are 960 of these so the fga-35 works at roughly about 18.432 kilowatts. Guskov was asked in a interview if they are making a 5th gen radar with the same thing Guskov stated in response “we have certain plans” now no one knows if those certain plans have been implemented or not but this interview was stated in 2014.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:26 am

    While it's great tech and achievements are impressive, Russia is holding out on it's use in other applications and mostly use it in ground based radar systems. Rostec has already showcased it's GaN tech which is superior to these GaAS modules and still working on ROFAR so they are moving R&D ahead while using this tech limited. NPO istok makes a lot of these GaAS modules and it is super impressive where they have gone with it. Much like it's Thermal matrices.
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    Post  Isos on Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:54 am

    There is always something better at the r&d, if they wait for it to be finished they will wait forever as everytime something new will appear.

    The backbone of their irforce needs something reliable and mass produced. Mig-35 should get its aesa faster. They have designed like 3 or 4 fga-35 since the presentation of mig-35 for the indian tender in 2008. Maybe they should start produce one of them now.

    The 48 SMT should also be equiped with it. 48 is a big number. Add the 32 mig-35 they want for the first batch, it would be 80 cheap aesa equiped frontline fighter that could intercept anything at the borders and reduce the workload of the sukhois that are more expensive.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:41 pm

    As I have mentioned before in another thread, it won't be cheap. Those T/R modules are not cheap and they are used in the N036 radar for Su-57. At that, while it's all said and good, Bars R (and recent upgrade) along with Irbis are cheaper and better performing due to outright raw power.

    Also, radar requires the necessary power draw in order for it to operate as you say. Even if it can use 18kw of power (the FGA-35) it still requires to pull that power from somewhere. The APU is we're it draws it from and tbh, only system capable of having enough power draw is the APU found with the Al-31 engines used in Su-35 which can draw more than 20kw of power. Hence why Irbis E can produce 20kw output in power. Otherwise, it will be a lot of wasted T/R modules at high expense. They could of course invest heavily in other power technology in order to generate that power, but overall it has to come from somewhere.
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    Post  LMFS on Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:23 pm

    It makes sense not to start deploying AESA until it is mature and cheap enough to offer real advantages compared to last PESAs. But from the moment they start (serial production of Su-57 already ongoing), production should be ramped up with decision in order to get reasonable prices and a good position in the radar export market. Otherwise their prices and manufacturing expertise will never progress and the whole future development of radar industry in Russia would be impaired.
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    Post  Isos on Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:30 pm

    LMFS wrote:It makes sense not to start deploying AESA until it is mature and cheap enough to offer real advantages compared to last PESAs. But from the moment they start (serial production of Su-57 already ongoing), production should be ramped up with decision in order to get reasonable prices and a good position in the radar export market. Otherwise their prices and manufacturing expertise will never progress and the whole future development of radar industry in Russia would be impaired.

    Zhuk m has a range of 120km against fighters. Last fga-35 has 260km. If this is not a proof that aesa are better ...

    Irbis-e is powerfull but scaled down version with less power for mig-35 would be inferior to fga-35.

    Sukhoi pesa are good because of raw power like mike said. Mig-35 is another story. It needs aesa more than sukhois.
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    Post  Hole on Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:34 pm

    The energy is generated from the engines, the APU is only used to start up the engines and to provide energy on the ground.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:06 pm

    Hole wrote:The energy is generated from the engines, the APU is only used to start up the engines and to provide energy on the ground.

    Not exactly. Energy is provided by engines but the APU is needed to convert from DC to AC.

    Auxillery Power Unit powers also onboard electronics.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:10 pm

    Isos wrote:
    LMFS wrote:It makes sense not to start deploying AESA until it is mature and cheap enough to offer real advantages compared to last PESAs. But from the moment they start (serial production of Su-57 already ongoing), production should be ramped up with decision in order to get reasonable prices and a good position in the radar export market. Otherwise their prices and manufacturing expertise will never progress and the whole future development of radar industry in Russia would be impaired.

    Zhuk m has a range of 120km against fighters. Last fga-35 has 260km. If this is not a proof that aesa are better ...

    Irbis-e is powerfull but scaled down version with less power for mig-35 would be inferior to fga-35.

    Sukhoi pesa are good because of raw power like mike said. Mig-35 is another story. It needs aesa more than sukhois.

    Maybe, maybe not. Scaled down means little these days. It still only has 4 trancievers but requires a lot of energy to use it. Something that the MiG-35 does not produce. So if it produces only 7KW of power for the radar, that is all the onboard electronics get to use, that is including the radar. So 7KW to the T/R modules means they may not work at full capacity. Of course they would more than likely be using capacitors to help store and provide additional power but overall, there are limitations and due to this, the modules won't work at full capacity. Nothing wrong with that tbh and yes, could be a great radar if provided full power to it. If it was on a Su-35 that is.

    Funny enough, both radar companies are owned by Rostec.
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    Post  Hole on Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:31 pm

    Nope.

    First tactical aircraft in Russia fitted with an APU was the Su-34 from Batch 2 (end of 2011) onwards.

    Quotes: "The auxiliary power unit supplies AC power to aircraft systems and provides airconditioning of the cockpit and avionics compartments on the ground. It reduces the dependence on ground support equipment (the vehicles with APA in the name) when operating from auxiliary airstrips."

    Russian PESA and AESA Radars - Page 6 102310
    It is a small generator working with kerosin instead of diesel. You can clearly see the flap over the exhaust.

    In the air energy is generated from a generator fitted to each engine, tranformers and converters are also fitted, the so called accessories.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:08 am

    Thanks for correction. Point still stands, not enough power provided for radar systems.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:29 am

    APUs, as mentioned above are for allowing aircraft start ups without bit ground based power units to turn on air con systems and to start engines etc.

    Most Russian tactical aircraft have APUs and do not require truck mounted power systems to start...

    The Su-34 had a new bigger model fitted because of the amount of electronics and systems on board.

    In flight the APUs are not used... power is taken from the engines to operate radar and most onboard systems.

    Radar power has dramatically increased over recent years, and their might have been issues where the onboard power capacity has not allowed full use of sensor power, but radars never operate at full power for very long anyway and spend 80% of their time listening and receiving...

    A few years ago they were developing a new jammer platform and it came down to a Backfire and an Il-76 and the Il-76 won simply because there was more room for larger jammers and four engines for providing takeoff power so they could be more powerful too.
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    Post  Hole on Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:13 am

    miketheterrible wrote:Thanks for correction. Point still stands, not enough power provided for radar systems.

    Absolutely.

    Don´t know if they could fit stronger generators to the engines. dunno
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    Post  LMFS on Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:25 pm

    Hole wrote:Don´t know if they could fit stronger generators to the engines.  dunno
    It does not seem too far fetched that you could drain hundreds of kW when you power plant generates tens of MWs as fighter engine does, the issue is probably volume and most critically thermal management. It is supposed that the third air stream in newer variable cycle engines destined to 6G planes, where electrical power will really grow manifold, will help with the heat evacuation that all the electric power handling and conditioning will require.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:21 am

    I think you guys are a little confused.... most modern aircraft have batteries so that if their engines shut down they can still restart them and continue to use the avionics and hydraulic systems on board the aircraft.

    Some aircraft have APUs often because they have extensive and energy rapacious devices on board like lots of computers and sensors and systems, including lots of screens in the cockpit etc etc.

    In the very early days of aircraft they had a small trailer they towed out to the aircraft line to plug the plane in to start their engines.... once their engines were going they had power so they were disconnected and took off.

    Some planes even had powder charge starters like a shotgun starter, while others used compressed air starters, but these days batteries have replaced all that shit for most aircraft... many bigger aircraft with bigger power consumption requirements... the Su-34 has been mentioned but the Tu-22M3 also uses APU support, and so do modern fighters like the Mig-29 and Su-27 simply because batteries are not always reliable in cold climates.

    An APU is not used in flight... it is used on the ground to help start the aircrafts engines.

    Normal onboard power is taken from the main engines using electrical generators... massive increases in power requirements simply mean the performance of those electrical generators has to be upgraded to keep pace... not a huge deal, but not nothing either.

    Even more reason to work on all electric vehicles and EMALS type systems...

    Imagine in 30 years time when a tiny nuclear battery putting out enormous energy for up to 10 years continuous could be placed in an aircraft with electric motors to "fly" it... after 10 years of continuous use with no fuelling, you just remove the battery and replace it with a new one and refuel the old battery.

    Saudi Arabia and Venezuela should be afraid, but I am surprised the US is working against it because cheap energy is good for everyone but the oil companies... (I know they call themselves energy companies now, but that is like the war departments and ministries of war in the west over night becoming defence departments and ministries of defence... new name, same old snake.)
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:16 am

    Reason why Russia never bothered initially with AESA for airborn radars was simple:
    - Cost vs Performance - in end it's physics - energy input vs output. They managed to get similar results using Hybrid radar while paying significantly less.
    - Efficiency of T/R modules. Older TR modules Russia and others make are rather inefficient. They have a relatively high failure rate (over 10% of total modules used) and cooling them was a problem initially. You would rarely if ever get 7w out of a 10w module, and these were seen in ground systems. Imagine for aircrafts.

    Russia, since introducing AESA T/R modules GaAS back in early 2000's, have invested in ways to make it smaller and more efficient. A single module now consists of a quad pack meaning 4x per module. And instead of 5W, they managed upwards to 15W each. Ultimately though, cooling was and still is an issue. Don't know if overall efficiency has improved. Hence why only recently they been looking at it for aircraft while they been using AESA for ground systems for many years (Nebo M as example). Su-35 also has AESA lband modules on its wings but it's debated as what they are for (either long range quick scans or for IFF).

    ROFAR is what Rostec has invested money and even built two new facilities for. I think they are forgoing GaAS or GaN at the moment besides for civilian use (They make GaN modules as we speak for civil assets - telecom systems and airports). I have provided the news and links before on this forums.
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    Post  kvs on Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:09 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Reason why Russia never bothered initially with AESA for airborn radars was simple:
    - Cost vs Performance - in end it's physics - energy input vs output. They managed to get similar results using Hybrid radar while paying significantly less.
    - Efficiency of T/R modules. Older TR modules Russia and others make are rather inefficient. They have a relatively high failure rate (over 10% of total modules used) and cooling them was a problem initially. You would rarely if ever get 7w out of a 10w module, and these were seen in ground systems. Imagine for aircrafts.

    Russia, since introducing AESA T/R modules GaAS back in early 2000's, have invested in ways to make it smaller and more efficient. A single module now consists of a quad pack meaning 4x per module. And instead of 5W, they managed upwards to 15W each. Ultimately though, cooling was and still is an issue. Don't know if overall efficiency has improved.  Hence why only recently they been looking at it for aircraft while they been using AESA for ground systems for many years (Nebo M as example). Su-35 also has AESA lband modules on its wings but it's debated as what they are for (either long range quick scans or for IFF).

    ROFAR is what Rostec has invested money and even built two new facilities for. I think they are forgoing GaAS or GaN at the moment besides for civilian use (They make GaN modules as we speak for civil assets - telecom systems and airports). I have provided the news and links before on this forums.

    The trick with GaN is that for a given power level the signal discrimination is much higher. So you can either use less power to get the same detection ability
    or use more power and get much better detection ability. I suspect a variable power capability is being developed. No need to be on detection steroids all the time.

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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:27 pm

    kvs wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Reason why Russia never bothered initially with AESA for airborn radars was simple:
    - Cost vs Performance - in end it's physics - energy input vs output. They managed to get similar results using Hybrid radar while paying significantly less.
    - Efficiency of T/R modules. Older TR modules Russia and others make are rather inefficient. They have a relatively high failure rate (over 10% of total modules used) and cooling them was a problem initially. You would rarely if ever get 7w out of a 10w module, and these were seen in ground systems. Imagine for aircrafts.

    Russia, since introducing AESA T/R modules GaAS back in early 2000's, have invested in ways to make it smaller and more efficient. A single module now consists of a quad pack meaning 4x per module. And instead of 5W, they managed upwards to 15W each. Ultimately though, cooling was and still is an issue. Don't know if overall efficiency has improved.  Hence why only recently they been looking at it for aircraft while they been using AESA for ground systems for many years (Nebo M as example). Su-35 also has AESA lband modules on its wings but it's debated as what they are for (either long range quick scans or for IFF).

    ROFAR is what Rostec has invested money and even built two new facilities for. I think they are forgoing GaAS or GaN at the moment besides for civilian use (They make GaN modules as we speak for civil assets - telecom systems and airports). I have provided the news and links before on this forums.

    The trick with GaN is that for a given power level the signal discrimination is much higher.   So you can either use less power to get the same detection ability
    or use more power and get much better detection ability.   I suspect a variable power capability is being developed.   No need to be on detection steroids all the time.


    The thing is that MOD is applying GaN modules for 'their' take on 2nd gen AESA, which is GaN module AESA array backed with Photonic computing which allows information processing by an order of magnitude greater or more than previous generation of computing. Because the processing power is so much greater, you'll have an AESA array with rows of modules working on different frequencies wavelengths: One row could be X-band frequency, another row S-band, another L-band, another Ku-band, another VHF-band, another UHF-band. The multi-band AESA allows for 3D visualization of data gathered by frequency signals. You may even seen radars that go through THF wavelengths to ELF wavelengths.
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    Post  thegopnik on Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:08 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    kvs wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Reason why Russia never bothered initially with AESA for airborn radars was simple:
    - Cost vs Performance - in end it's physics - energy input vs output. They managed to get similar results using Hybrid radar while paying significantly less.
    - Efficiency of T/R modules. Older TR modules Russia and others make are rather inefficient. They have a relatively high failure rate (over 10% of total modules used) and cooling them was a problem initially. You would rarely if ever get 7w out of a 10w module, and these were seen in ground systems. Imagine for aircrafts.

    Russia, since introducing AESA T/R modules GaAS back in early 2000's, have invested in ways to make it smaller and more efficient. A single module now consists of a quad pack meaning 4x per module. And instead of 5W, they managed upwards to 15W each. Ultimately though, cooling was and still is an issue. Don't know if overall efficiency has improved.  Hence why only recently they been looking at it for aircraft while they been using AESA for ground systems for many years (Nebo M as example). Su-35 also has AESA lband modules on its wings but it's debated as what they are for (either long range quick scans or for IFF).

    ROFAR is what Rostec has invested money and even built two new facilities for. I think they are forgoing GaAS or GaN at the moment besides for civilian use (They make GaN modules as we speak for civil assets - telecom systems and airports). I have provided the news and links before on this forums.

    The trick with GaN is that for a given power level the signal discrimination is much higher.   So you can either use less power to get the same detection ability
    or use more power and get much better detection ability.   I suspect a variable power capability is being developed.   No need to be on detection steroids all the time.


    The thing is that MOD is applying GaN modules for 'their' take on 2nd gen AESA, which is GaN module AESA array backed with Photonic computing which allows information processing by an order of magnitude greater or more than previous generation of computing. Because the processing power is so much greater, you'll have an AESA array with rows of modules working on different frequencies wavelengths: One row could be X-band frequency, another row S-band, another L-band, another Ku-band, another VHF-band, another UHF-band. The multi-band AESA allows for 3D visualization of data gathered by frequency signals. You may even seen radars that go through THF wavelengths to ELF wavelengths.

    Source I received from LMFS.

    https://iz.ru/914404/roman-kretcul-aleksei-ramm/byt-3d-novye-lokatory-sozdadut-trekhmernuiu-kartinku-tceli

    "The Russian military will receive radars based on revolutionary technology - radio photonics. Thanks to such locators, you can recognize complex objects and find small targets even against the background of numerous interference. Unlike traditional radar stations, they use optical devices rather than microwave electronics when processing the signal. The main advantage of the new development is that it allows you to create a three-dimensional portrait of an object and determine its type. In a few years, radio-photon locators will be installed on promising fighters and other weapons systems, sources in the military department told Izvestia.

    The first prototype of a radar on discrete radio-photonic elements has already been created, the head of RTI JSC Maxim Kuzyuk told Izvestia. According to Izvestia sources in the Ministry of Defense, the military is taking part in tests of new type locators.

    During the experiment, the locator tracked the trajectory of a small-sized drone. A full analysis of his work was carried out, on the basis of which the directions of further research were determined, ”said Maxim Kuzyuk. - To develop a new system, a new component base is needed, including photonic integrated circuits.

    Modern radars create electronic radiation in the area of ​​their action, which, reflected from objects, returns and transmits a signal to the receiving equipment. This technology has not changed for many decades. Radio-photon locators operate using an ultra-wide bandwidth optical signal processing path, and this provides a number of advantages. Firstly, the dimensions of such radars are much smaller than existing ones. Secondly, they are more reliable and more resistant to electromagnetic radiation. In addition, prospective locators have increased resolution and noise immunity. They allow not only to detect the target and determine the parameters of its flight, but also to compose a three-dimensional portrait of the object to determine its type."

    FICs > GaN AESA. FICs is a completely different field from MMICs in fact it gave the Russians brand new tracking capabilities that were not deemed possible from space.

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