Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+43
Begome
Big_Gazza
limb
lyle6
Atmosphere
Russian_Patriot_
AJ-47
eehnie
Isos
hoom
franco
GunshipDemocracy
George1
Hole
d_taddei2
Interlinked
The-thing-next-door
0nillie0
GarryB
PapaDragon
SeigSoloyvov
Book.
KiloGolf
miketheterrible
VladimirSahin
Benya
magnumcromagnon
kopyo-21
KoTeMoRe
BMP1SP2
Werewolf
Vympel
Mike E
Regular
kjasdu
Cyberspec
AlfaT8
Zivo
KomissarBojanchev
flamming_python
TR1
medo
Austin
47 posters

    BMP-1 and BMP-2 in Russian Army

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 37245
    Points : 37761
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    BMP-1 and BMP-2 in Russian Army - Page 13 Empty Re: BMP-1 and BMP-2 in Russian Army

    Post  GarryB 27/08/23, 06:10 pm

    It is funny you mention this because I have thought a good upgrade for Russian ATGMs would be to convert the Metis-M2 to use the laser beam riding guidance of the Kornet and now Bulat because the export price of the Kornet is very cheap. One order for a large number of missiles came to about $5K per missiles and that was not including the launchers so the actual price was probably less.

    If you converted the Metis missile to laser beam riding you could boost its flight speed and range quite easily and if the Metis used laser beam riding guidance then they could also carry the Bulat missile as well for lighter targets that don't require the 950mm plus penetration of the Metis system.

    It was always a manpack type system for three men to carry the launcher and five missiles, so being able to carry much smaller and more compact but still guided missiles would make the system even more flexible.

    With the AT-4 and AT-5 with the BMP-2 and BRDM-3 they introduced a combined launcher that could fire either missile to make them more flexible so you could carry more missiles and if a target presented itself that was within range of the smaller missile and didn't need max penetration then you could use a smaller lighter missile and save the heavier missiles for greater ranges and heavier targets.

    The five ready to launch rails of the BRDM-3 was a good example where it could carry more missiles if lighter missiles and heavy missiles were carried together.

    The added flight speed and improved range would also be good features, and of course the lighter weight and more compact design of the Bulat missiles would likely be seen as useful too.

    d_taddei2 likes this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 37245
    Points : 37761
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    BMP-1 and BMP-2 in Russian Army - Page 13 Empty Re: BMP-1 and BMP-2 in Russian Army

    Post  GarryB 27/08/23, 06:12 pm

    BTW they were certainly talking about an upgraded SPG-9M with improved ammo and possibly accuracy improvements using perhaps gyros or guidance or both.

    One should not underestimate the value of a direct fire light weight weapon that delivers HE rounds or anti armour rounds accurately.

    d_taddei2 likes this post

    avatar
    ALAMO


    Posts : 5456
    Points : 5550
    Join date : 2014-11-26

    BMP-1 and BMP-2 in Russian Army - Page 13 Empty Re: BMP-1 and BMP-2 in Russian Army

    Post  ALAMO 27/08/23, 09:16 pm

    SPG-9 is somewhat limited because of being recoilless. That limits the round speed, which hinders both accuracy and range. Answer would be some kind of RAP I guess dunno

    d_taddei2 likes this post

    avatar
    11E


    Posts : 113
    Points : 123
    Join date : 2020-12-09

    BMP-1 and BMP-2 in Russian Army - Page 13 Empty Re: BMP-1 and BMP-2 in Russian Army

    Post  11E 27/08/23, 10:58 pm

    IIRC the BRDM-3 was/is the incorrect designation for the 9P148 and that the BRDM-3 is a recce variant based on the BTR-82A?

    GarryB and GunshipDemocracy like this post

    marcellogo
    marcellogo


    Posts : 582
    Points : 588
    Join date : 2012-08-02
    Age : 54
    Location : Italy

    BMP-1 and BMP-2 in Russian Army - Page 13 Empty Re: BMP-1 and BMP-2 in Russian Army

    Post  marcellogo 28/08/23, 08:57 am

    GarryB wrote:It is funny you mention this because I have thought a good upgrade for Russian ATGMs would be to convert the Metis-M2 to use the laser beam riding guidance of the Kornet and now Bulat because the export price of the Kornet is very cheap. One order for a large number of missiles came to about $5K per missiles and that was not including the launchers so the actual price was probably less.

    If you converted the Metis missile to laser beam riding you could boost its flight speed and range quite easily and if the Metis used laser beam riding guidance then they could also carry the Bulat missile as well for lighter targets that don't require the 950mm plus penetration of the Metis system.


    Just impossible: Metis missiles doesn't carry a battery inside but receive the electricity they need to steer through the wire itself.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 37245
    Points : 37761
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    BMP-1 and BMP-2 in Russian Army - Page 13 Empty Re: BMP-1 and BMP-2 in Russian Army

    Post  GarryB 28/08/23, 04:11 pm

    SPG-9 is somewhat limited because of being recoilless.

    SPG-9 is lightweight because it is recoilless.

    The 73mm gun of the BMP-1 used essentially the same ammo with reduced propellent with better range and speed because it was a gun, but such a gun would create recoil and be rather heavier than the SPG-9 for only modest performance improvements.

    That limits the round speed, which hinders both accuracy and range. Answer would be some kind of RAP I guess

    The difference between the RPG-2 and RPG-7 was the sustainer rocket motor on the RPG-7 which transformed it into a much better weapon... a rocket sustainer motor to flatten the flight path and increase average speed would not be that hard or complex to add to recoilless rifle ammo rounds.

    Of course unlike the RPG-7 you would have a full calibre rocket motor, so instead of gradually bigger rocket warheads being propelled by a 40mm rocket motor you would have a full calibre rocket motor.

    Perhaps even develop a new 80mm rocket based on aircraft rockets and warheads, but of course their rocket motors ignite from launch and burn a few hundred metres and burn out... a shoulder launched version would be better to be blasted out of the launch tube and then not light up its main rocket till it has travelled 10-20m or so to protect the operator.

    I do like the RPO-M launcher designed to be attached to various calibre disposable rocket types... perhaps a unified launcher system that you can attach disposable rockets of the RPO and MRO and the other types as well, with a built in ballistics computer and laser range finder to improve field performance without needing guided rockets... well perhaps add modified 80mm and perhaps 57mm rockets of the air launched variety as well as a small unified launcher for guided missiles like Metis and Bulat.

    This is primarily for special forces and light mobile units... perhaps something built in to a bicycle or even tricycle for mobility.

    IIRC the BRDM-3 was/is the incorrect designation for the 9P148 and that the BRDM-3 is a recce variant based on the BTR-82A?

    Yes, you are quite right... for most of the cold war we had to rely on the west for such information and they were not that great...

    Just impossible: Metis missiles doesn't carry a battery inside but receive the electricity they need to steer through the wire itself.

    A modern battery could provide power and the space needed for the wire alone and the spooling mechanism that deployed the wire in flight could be replaced with the new optical system and a decent sized battery.

    The Bulat is a rather tiny missile so it really can't take that much space for the tail mounted tracking system.

    BMP-1 and BMP-2 in Russian Army - Page 13 28642714

    Compared with Kornet Bulat is rather small and compared with the 57mm grenade on the table it looks to be 65-75mm calibre maybe... it appears to mimic the design of the Kornet so yellow tip is a HEAT precursor charge, the gray is the rocket motor propellent, then the darker yellow is the main shaped charge, then the very rear gray bit is the electronics and control surfaces and rear looking optical system. The two nose mounted fins steer the missile... only having two reduces costs and complexity, but as the missile rolls in flight enables good enough manouver performance to hit moving battlefield targets...

    d_taddei2 and Broski like this post


    Sponsored content


    BMP-1 and BMP-2 in Russian Army - Page 13 Empty Re: BMP-1 and BMP-2 in Russian Army

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is 25/09/23, 04:24 pm