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    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    KomissarBojanchev
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    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat Nov 01, 2014 12:18 pm

    TR1 wrote:His sources are shit.

    Poliment-Redut replacing Osa?

    Do I really need to spell out how stupid such a statement is?
    Why? Osa will be 80s obsolete scrap metal by 2020s, its 150% logical there will be Redut, morphei or possibly even S-500.
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 on Sat Nov 01, 2014 8:11 pm

    Really guys?

    Osa? The small, contained installation that takes up a tiny amount of deck space, and you think it will be replaced by Redut which:
    1.) Has enormous range in comparison
    2.) Takes up vastly more deck space
    3.) Needs an entire Poliment array (like on 22350) to function?
    4.) And I am supposed to believe they will put both R-P AND S-500/400 on it? What the hell is the point of such expensive and heavy redundancy?

    You are comparing apples and oranges here. Redut-Poliment is in no way an Osa replacement.
    Kinzhal was in many ways the Osa replacement, not Redut.

    Osa doesn't even need specific replacement- just standardize on Pantsir-M as the Osa/Ak630 successor.
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    Post  Mike E on Sat Nov 01, 2014 8:47 pm

    TR1 wrote:Really guys?

    Osa? The small, contained installation that takes up a tiny amount of deck space, and you think it will be replaced by Redut which:
    1.) Has enormous range in comparison
    2.) Takes up vastly more deck space
    3.) Needs an entire Poliment array (like on 22350) to function?
    4.) And I am supposed to believe they will put both R-P AND S-500/400 on it? What the hell is the point of such expensive and heavy redundancy?

    You are comparing apples and oranges here. Redut-Poliment is in no way an Osa replacement.
    Kinzhal was in many ways the Osa replacement, not Redut.

    Osa doesn't even need specific replacement- just standardize on Pantsir-M as the Osa/Ak630 successor.
    Never even said that I believed that... It is a possibility, but there would be a lesser number of missiles on-board. The 9M100 could be considered an Osa replacement, and is compatible with the Redut... 

    As for it taking up deck space... We are talking about a Kirov here... 

    A Poliment array would be a relatively easy addition, no reason to doubt it... 

    IMHO, they should replace the Osa with some sort of 9M100 system + Pantsir's (that isn't Redut) and replace the S-300's to the S-400 at least. That is probably the most likely scenario as well... 

    I agree on the Pantsir, though I'd assume adding a large number of them would increase the cost dramatically...
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:59 am



    They are calling this a deep modernisation... do you think they will keep the Osa system in production so they can keep using an obsolete system on their upgraded cruisers?

    Osa? The small, contained installation that takes up a tiny amount of deck space, and you think it will be replaced by Redut which:
    1.) Has enormous range in comparison
    2.) Takes up vastly more deck space
    3.) Needs an entire Poliment array (like on 22350) to function?
    4.) And I am supposed to believe they will put both R-P AND S-500/400 on it? What the hell is the point of such expensive and heavy redundancy?

    Redut is the naval version of the land based Vityaz as well you know. Rif is the naval version of the S-300 which you also know.

    S-400 and Vityaz and Morfei are all supposed to be compatible with the Redut launchers.

    they wont take Osa out and put Redut in its place any more than they would try to cram the entire Vityaz system on an OSA vehicle.

    Redut will be fitted and it will carry S-400 and S-350 and likely 9M100 missiles or combinations of the above.

    Do you think they will give a Kirov class cruiser a deep upgrade and not fit it with radars with the performance needed to use S-400 or S-500?

    talking of redundancy... why bother with OSA and Kashtan and AK-630 turrets... or Klintok on later models?

    Because when managed properly it makes the defensive system more effective?

    You are comparing apples and oranges here. Redut-Poliment is in no way an Osa replacement.
    Kinzhal was in many ways the Osa replacement, not Redut.

    If 9M100 is compatible with Redut then it is clearly an OSA replacement.

    Osa doesn't even need specific replacement- just standardize on Pantsir-M as the Osa/Ak630 successor.

    they have mentioned two versions of Pantsir... one likely more stealthy for new ships and one not so stealthy for non stealthy ship upgrades... they might use either in this case.

    As for it taking up deck space... We are talking about a Kirov here...

    Most of the other systems on board will be dramatically smaller in volume, which should free up lots of space.

    The UKSK launchers will replace the 20 SS-N-19 Granit launchers, but it will also replace the SS-N-14 launchers near the bow too.
    TheArmenian
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    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:25 pm

    TR1 wrote:Really guys?

    Osa? The small, contained installation that takes up a tiny amount of deck space, and you think it will be replaced by Redut which:
    1.) Has enormous range in comparison
    2.) Takes up vastly more deck space
    3.) Needs an entire Poliment array (like on 22350) to function?
    4.) And I am supposed to believe they will put both R-P AND S-500/400 on it? What the hell is the point of such expensive and heavy redundancy?

    You are comparing apples and oranges here. Redut-Poliment is in no way an Osa replacement.
    Kinzhal was in many ways the Osa replacement, not Redut.

    Osa doesn't even need specific replacement- just standardize on Pantsir-M as the Osa/Ak630 successor.

    Huh!!!

    Does Nakhimov even have OSA?
    I thought it was equipped with the naval version of TOR.
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    Post  Mike E on Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:42 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Really guys?

    Osa? The small, contained installation that takes up a tiny amount of deck space, and you think it will be replaced by Redut which:
    1.) Has enormous range in comparison
    2.) Takes up vastly more deck space
    3.) Needs an entire Poliment array (like on 22350) to function?
    4.) And I am supposed to believe they will put both R-P AND S-500/400 on it? What the hell is the point of such expensive and heavy redundancy?

    You are comparing apples and oranges here. Redut-Poliment is in no way an Osa replacement.
    Kinzhal was in many ways the Osa replacement, not Redut.

    Osa doesn't even need specific replacement- just standardize on Pantsir-M as the Osa/Ak630 successor. 
    Huh!!!

    Does Nakhimov even have OSA?
    I thought it was equipped with the naval version of TOR.
    I can't find anything saying it is equipped with the naval-Tor... It is very hard to find info on the Nakhimov, and most of it is about the Kirov in general...
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 on Thu Dec 04, 2014 9:43 pm

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    At least Lazarev looks somewhat dignified now.
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    Post  George1 on Thu Dec 04, 2014 9:55 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    At least Lazarev looks somewhat dignified now.

    is it going for scrap?
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    Post  TR1 on Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:15 pm

    It is going to the North. Past that, no idea.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 05, 2014 9:49 am

    I can't find anything saying it is equipped with the naval-Tor... It is very hard to find info on the Nakhimov, and most of it is about the Kirov in general...

    Naval TOR is Kinzhal, with the export model being called Klintok... AFAIK only Kirov had OSA, with the other three vessels having Kinzhal (Dagger).
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    Post  Vann7 on Sat Dec 06, 2014 4:35 am


    So how many S-400 super long range missiles Nakhimov will have...  30 ?

    also i was hoping to see S-500 missiles in a kirov.. that will have been nice..
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:12 am

    They have said they want to fit 10 UKSK launchers in the upgraded Kirovs, which means up to 80 anti ship or land attack cruise missiles, but they have not mentioned how many SAMs will be carried.

    the original Kirovs had about 96 Rif-M missiles so it should be able to carry at least that many S-400s.

    I suspect it will also likely have capacity for S-500s as well in unknown numbers.
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Dec 06, 2014 3:53 pm

    TR1 wrote:At least Lazarev looks somewhat dignified now.

    I wasn't even aware that she was in drydock.  Last I heard she was laid up in Vladivostok?  She certainly doesn't look like a ship that is destined for the scrapheap.  Her hull is scraped and repainted, and her superstructures look clean and in good condition, at least on first impressions.  Could she be in dock for preservation works?
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    Post  GJ Flanker on Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:59 am

    If the situation between Russia and the West gets even more worse than now, Russia could decide to eventually modernize 3 Kirovs, even the Typhoons could get back to the Navy as SSGNs.
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    Post  George1 on Sun Dec 07, 2014 1:07 pm

    GJ Flanker wrote:If the situation between Russia and the West gets even more worse than now, Russia could decide to eventually modernize 3 Kirovs, even the Typhoons could get back to the Navy as SSGNs.
     

    yes but some say that these modernizations cost too much that it is preferable the allocated money to be transferred for the construction of new ships and submarines
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    Post  flamming_python on Sun Dec 07, 2014 10:55 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    TR1 wrote:At least Lazarev looks somewhat dignified now.

    I wasn't even aware that she was in drydock.  Last I heard she was laid up in Vladivostok?  She certainly doesn't look like a ship that is destined for the scrapheap.  Her hull is scraped and repainted, and her superstructures look clean and in good condition, at least on first impressions.  Could she be in dock for preservation works?

    I think they decided to scrap the Lazarev & Ushakov

    Hull's not the issue. The problem is with their nuclear reactors, and the obscene cost of replacing/renovating them and the dangers too, something like that.
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    Post  TR1 on Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:20 pm

    99% certainty they are goners. Lazarev might serve as donor vessel for Nakhmiov once it gets transported to the North.
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    Post  Firebird on Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:02 am

    Russia's been very clear about having less classes, more ships per class.
    There's only 2 operational and 2 in reserve/conservation.

    I think it would be pretty bizarre to scrap the hulls. After all, Russia's lterm plans are SIX new carriers plus the Kuznetsov. So you'd need/use one for each carrier.. atleast. PLus Kirovs can travel around the World independently. One for the Pacific, one for the Middle East, one for the Arctic, one for the Atlantic/anywhere worldwide. MINIMUM. Additionally, one is like to be in refurb at any given time.
    Its certainly not like they wont find them useful. And such ships have immeasuble importance in terms of prestige and difficulty in replacing.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 09, 2014 2:49 am

    they might have less ambitious plans... a Kirov for the Northern Fleet and the Pacific fleet and upgraded Slava class vessels for the Med etc.



    Hull's not the issue. The problem is with their nuclear reactors, and the obscene cost of replacing/renovating them and the dangers too, something like that.

    I guess the fact that upgrading two will give them the chance to install and test new technology reactors designed for next gen large ships will give them all the experience they want, while putting them in all four vessels might be redundant and expensive.

    Still they are talking about destroyers in 2020 or later so even if they do upgrade all the kirovs they wont get finished till 2030 or so.

    I rather suspect they will see how upgrades with the first two go... a total upgrade replacing everything should be relatively straight forward and simpler and cheaper in the long run than trying to keep old stuff and integrate it with new... look at the Gorshkov... when they cracked it open they found they had to replace all the wiring and piping... which was an unexpected added cost.

    Once they have upgraded two they might find upgrading two more might be fairly straight forward and well worth the effort.
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    Post  Vympel on Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:31 pm

    In Russian - about Admiral Lazarev

    Can anyone translate? Google translate is shocking.
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    Post  George1 on Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:56 pm

    Vympel wrote:In Russian - about Admiral Lazarev

    Can anyone translate? Google translate is shocking.

    Just dock repairs that are needed for the ship to be preserved and not sink
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    Post  George1 on Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:17 am

    Take a look on this, the equipment that bought for A.Nakimov modernization. No Redut SAM, and Palash CIWS. They bought S-300F..

    UKSUR LA-14H-11442M - 120 million rubles. [universal naval fire control system]
    Product 3C-14 - 1.2 billion rubles. [launchers vertical launch]
    CM-456-22350 - 88 million rubles. [set of tools loading]
    Product 3M-48 - 120 million rubles. [anti-aircraft missile system S-300FM]
    3M87-1F complex - 280 million rubles. [modification SPAR Dirk M?]
    3R87-1F, 4387-2F - 80 million rubles. [combat module SPAR 3H87-1]
    3P 86m - 75.2 million rubles. [control module SPAR Dirk]
    ASU defense - 80 million rubles.

    MTPK Package - 202.96 million. [mine and torpedo antisubmarine complex]


    RESU 5P-10 - 40 million. [fire control system "Puma"]
    MEDC 5P-20K - 60 million rubles. [multifunctional electronic systems]
    Product MP-650 - 144 million. [Radar "boletus"]
    Product 5P-30P - 70.9 million rubles. [Radar Frigate? - [Radar data processing system - bmpd]]
    NRS MR 232-3, MK-54IS - 20 million rubles. [navigation radars, electronic chart display and information system]
    NRS MP-231 - 10 million. [navigation radar]
    Complex MTK-M1.2 201 - 200 million. [multifunctional optoelectronic television complex]
    5P-28-11442M - 351.8 million. [EW complex TC-28?]
    Product Enchantress-18280 - 20 million rubles. [station VHF radio direction finding]
    5P-23 - 40 million.

    System Minotaur ISPN-M.1 - 120 million rubles. [towed sonar]
    Equipment MGS-30M - 4 million. [emergency control system]
    Sonar MG-757.3 - 14.6 million rubles. [lowerable GAS "Anapa-M"]
    PHA-WG products Amga M - 10 million rubles. [ASG reception sonobuoys]

    SIC TS - 500 million rubles. [complex system of technical facilities of the ship]
    ICS MN - 460 million rubles. [management information system, multi-purpose]
    The bridge IC-11442 - 12 million rubles. [Integrated Bridge System]
    System Sigma-11442M - 160 million rubles. [combat information management system]
    CEB and ECH Gnome-2M-11442 - 48 million rubles. [system of universal time and reference frequencies]
    Navigation system Czardas 11442M - 160 million rubles.
    The complex nature of hydrometeorological support K - 10 million rubles.
    The product lock-11442M - 28 million rubles. [System Weapon joint safe application]
    AKC R-779-16 "Ruberoid" - 1.2 billion rubles. [automated complex communication]
    Product Sycamore-MP - 25.4 million rubles. [shipboard equipment universal time]
    Equipment P-403 - 44 million. [warning equipment]
    Desalination P5S-2 - 68 million rubles.
    Turbo compressor chillers MTHM-2000RM - 100 million rubles.
    Complex CCC "GAMMA-01F" - 44 million rubles. [complex technical means of security and fire automatics]
    The monitoring system of the premises of the ISPO-M-11442M - 16 million rubles.

    Further development of design documentation for complex visual take-off and landing of the helicopter "Palubnik-1-11442M" - 17.7 million rubles.
    Complex software range navigation and landing helicopters B-7M - 20 million rubles.
    Product GUVK - 60 million rubles. [gyroscopic device production rate]
    Product Ilmen - 60 million rubles. [Complex generation, conversion and transmission of information from the system to ensure carrier-based aircraft]
    The complex flight data processing - 200 million rubles.

    OK-650B-3 - 220 million rubles. [Pressurized water reactor?]

    The product is 43 - 16 million.
    KPAS NC - 100 million rubles.
    SU | 70-08 - 80 million rubles.
    Equipment TV CBS-IPTV-11442M - 40 million rubles.
    GMDSS - 16 million rubles.
    Transas T104 - 8 million.
    Fire-M - 12 million rubles.
    Xico MRC complex - 60 million rubles.
    CT-308-06 - 160 million rubles.
    Cascade M - 20 million rubles.
    AC MTT - 11.9 million rubles.
    MDM-2 - 147 million rubles.
    reinforcement systems PPU - 745 million rubles.

    PS: Apparently poliment / Redout, Palash or shells is not expected ...

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1124199.html
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    Post  George1 on Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:54 am

    So we will have S-300FM (like in Peter the Great) instead of S-300F, and Klub launchers instead of P-700 launchers
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    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Jan 06, 2015 1:28 am

    George1 wrote:So we will have S-300FM (like in Peter the Great) instead of S-300F, and Klub launchers instead of P-700 launchers

    Also Packet antisubmarine/anti torpedo complex instead of torpedo tubes.
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    Post  TR1 on Tue Jan 06, 2015 1:29 am

    Kalibr, not Klub.

    Keep in mind this isn't an exhaustive list. There are notable gaps in the equipment mentioned- nothing regarding artillery for example (Puma fire control aside).
    So it is early to say what CIWS it will have, might very well be Palash or even Pantsir eventually. Modernized Kortik should be just fine IMO, and if the ship gets modernized Kinzhal there will be close in missile redundancy anyways....

    S-300FM and Podberezovik implies they are trying to avoid a complete superstructure reconstruction that would be needed for Poliment. Hopefully will keep cost from becoming outrageous as well.

    Hmmm, and people on the last page thought it would get Redut-Poliment AND S-400 or even 500. Reality is more muted as always.

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