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    Project 971: Akula class

    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:02 am

    walle83 wrote:Whats the point by then? India should spend the money on its own subs insted.
    India's indigenous SSN won't be available before 2030.

    https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/defence/story/20210426-india-s-nuclear-sharks-1791817-2021-04-17
    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:05 am

    RTN wrote:Western technologies like pump jets instead of propellers are way ahead of anything that Russia has developed. A well-designed pump jet is considerably quieter than an equivalent propeller. Pumpjet design had advanced over many years with a particular focus on the characteristics of all the components. Russia is of course not up to speed technologically.

    Hey bud, Boreis have pump jets...  yer Murican edumakayshun is showing there boy...  Twisted Evil

    BTW we've previously covered this pumpjet nonsense well and truly in this forum. May I suggest that you pay a little more attention to what your betters are discussing?

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    Singular_Transform
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    Post  Singular_Transform Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:46 am

    RTN wrote:
    walle83 wrote:India did what they should have done. Use the shit out of the submarine to learn as much as they possibly can. And then give it back before the Russians could bill them for another 10 years. Having one SSN never gave them much strategic value.
    Western technologies like pump jets instead of propellers are way ahead of anything that Russia has developed. A well-designed pump jet is considerably quieter than an equivalent propeller. Pumpjet design had advanced over many years with a particular focus on the characteristics of all the components. Russia is of course not up to speed technologically.

    India being a poor, third world country can't afford Western SSNs, SSBNs, so they settle for Russian nuclear submarines.

    It is more of a PR than real advantage.


    Pumpjet has only a narrow range of pressure and speed where it gives advantage, outside of it they increase the noise or decrease the speed compared to screw.

    Reason why only the ballistic submarines using it in the Russian inventory, the more capable (regards of speed and deep) hunter submarines still using screw.


    The pumpjet on the Virginias showing they inferriority, regards of general capabilities, not supperiority.

    All advantage of pumpjet can be achived by diving deeper than the adversary, and running faster than they with the pumpjet in greater pressure (deep) zones.

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    walle83

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    Post  walle83 Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:33 pm

    Sujoy wrote:
    walle83 wrote:Whats the point by then? India should spend the money on its own subs insted.
    India's indigenous SSN won't be available before 2030.

    https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/defence/story/20210426-india-s-nuclear-sharks-1791817-2021-04-17

    If they put the 3 billion on development and construction insted it probably would speed things up.

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    jhelb
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    Post  jhelb Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:16 pm

    The Chinese and U.S naval shipbuilding industry's strength lies in the large production runs that the PLA-Navy and U.S Navy can order. That's what Russia should be aiming for. Apart from targeting lucrative markets like Middle East and parts of Western Europe.

    Instead, Russian military exports is focused on poverty stricken failed states like India.

    This is why despite tremendous potential Russia is still way below China and US in defence exports.
    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:21 pm

    walle83 wrote:If they put the 3 billion on development and construction insted it probably would speed things up.
    Yes! That makes sense. But unlike your country Sweden there is a lot more corruption, red tapism that exists here in India.

    That's why most defence projects are running behind schedule and most of the military hardware is imported.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:26 pm

    Backman wrote:
    kvs wrote:
    George1 wrote:Nuclear submarine INS Chakra (formerly "Nerpa") of project 971I returning to russian side at the end of 2021?

    (reports that India allegedly did not renew the agreement on the lease of the Russian nuclear submarine K-152 "Nerpa")

    https://dambiev.livejournal.com/2337601.html

    Modi wants to lease some US boat instead in all likelihood.



    The US doesn't lease out or export subs.

    Nothing is absolute and fixed in perpetuity in geopolitics.
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    walle83

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    Post  walle83 Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:41 pm

    Sujoy wrote:
    walle83 wrote:If they put the 3 billion on development and construction insted it probably would speed things up.
    Yes! That makes sense. But unlike your country Sweden there is a lot more corruption, red tapism that exists here in India.

    That's why most defence projects are running behind schedule and most of the military hardware is imported.

    Maybe you should put the money on fighting corruption insted of nuclear submarines then.

    And things in the military are always under budget here also, the same story for the last 40 years Rolling Eyes
    franco
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    Post  franco Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:30 pm

    India returns to Russia the leased nuclear submarine K-152 "Nerpa" of project 971

    India is returning the Project 971 Nerpa nuclear submarine to Russia due to the expiration of the lease term. According to Indian media, citing sources in the Indian military department, the nuclear submarine with the Indian name S72 Chakra is already on its way to Russia.

    According to the Hindustan Times, the Russian nuclear submarine K-152 Nerpa (Project 971U Schuka-B) was leased to the Indian Navy in 2012 for a period of 10 years. The agreement on this was signed on December 30, 2011. On the Russian submarine, the Indian Navy trained crews for Indian nuclear submarines built at domestic shipyards.

    The premature return of the submarine to India, according to the Indian television channel NDTV, is explained by problems with its maintenance, including the power plant.

    According to reports, a submarine with an Indian crew has already arrived in Singapore, from where ships from the Pacific Fleet will accompany it to Vladivostok. and the Indian Navy. The press service of the Pacific Fleet confirms the arrival in Singapore of the large anti-submarine ship Admiral Tributs and the sea tug Kalar, but there are no reports regarding the nuclear submarine.

    Meanwhile, India does not intend to abandon the lease of Russian submarines. New Delhi plans to receive another project 971 nuclear submarine for a long-term lease no later than 2025. For the submarine K-391 "Bratsk", which is undergoing modernization at the Zvezdochka Ship Repair Center, a name has already been invented - Chakra 3.

    https://covid36qdxuptbodqslievhsl4-ac4c6men2g7xr2a-topwar-ru.translate.goog/183719-indija-vozvraschaet-rossii-arendovannuju-apl-k-152-nerpa-proekta-971.html
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:50 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    RTN wrote:Western technologies like pump jets instead of propellers are way ahead of anything that Russia has developed. A well-designed pump jet is considerably quieter than an equivalent propeller. Pumpjet design had advanced over many years with a particular focus on the characteristics of all the components. Russia is of course not up to speed technologically.

    Hey bud, Boreis have pump jets...  yer Murican edumakayshun is showing there boy...  Twisted Evil

    BTW we've previously covered this pumpjet nonsense well and truly in this forum.  May I suggest that you pay a little more attention to what your betters are discussing?

    One of the old kilo has it too.

    They also have largest centers for testing submarine technologies in Russia. They have already learned all about the "advantages" of the pump jets.

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:09 pm

    RTN wrote:Western technologies like pump jets instead of propellers are way ahead of anything that Russia has developed. ...

    Dude, seriously?

    Borei- class? Since 2013 in service?

    On it's second iteration?

    You need to change that avatar because you no longer deserve to have it[/quote]


    franco wrote:...Meanwhile, India does not intend to abandon the lease of Russian submarines. New Delhi plans to receive another project 971 nuclear submarine for a long-term lease no later than 2025. For the submarine K-391 "Bratsk", which is undergoing modernization at the Zvezdochka Ship Repair Center, a name has already been invented - Chakra 3. ...

    Bratsk is the oldest one now so leasing it to India will not be affecting Russian Navy

    And 3 billion bucks buys you quite a few Yasens


    Photos of Nerpa/Chakra en route back home:

    Project 971: Akula class - Page 12 05-9771845-51223690182

    Project 971: Akula class - Page 12 05-9771845-51225166544

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    Backman
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    Post  Backman Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:25 pm

    Seems every submarine thread on this site has to go through the pumpjet bs.

    The Alrosa kilo is the only diesel electric sub in the world with a pumpjet

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:34 pm

    I wonder why they don't just sell an export yasen to India. Just let them pay 1 billions per ship and make sure they are different from russian version.

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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:46 pm

    Isos wrote:I wonder why they don't just sell an export yasen to India. Just let them pay 1 billions per ship and make sure they are different from russian version.

    Because it takes time to build Yasen and Russia wants Yasens for themselves (and don't want to share, ever)

    Also any export Yasen would cost waaaaay more than measly 1 billion, I am talking about more than 4 billion here at least

    Plus amount of hardware they would have to take out of it in order to get a monkey version plus testing would be crazy, it would be like designing a whole new subclass of boats

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    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:33 pm

    So what do the Russians plan to do with the Nerpa? Just fix it and re lease it or use it for themselves?
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    Post  x_54_u43 Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:41 pm

    Isos wrote:I wonder why they don't just sell an export yasen to India. Just let them pay 1 billions per ship and make sure they are different from russian version.

    Sell a more advanced vessel for less than half of what you would get by leasing a less advanced vessel for only 10 years?

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    franco
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    Post  franco Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:39 am

    miketheterrible wrote:So what do the Russians plan to do with the Nerpa?  Just fix it and re lease it or use it for themselves?

    I would be surprised if it was used further. It was old technology when it was leased out.
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    Post  Big_Gazza Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:35 am

    franco wrote:I would be surprised if it was used further. It was old technology when it was leased out.

    Old technology?  The concept of modernisation programs is somehow new to you? Suspect

    Nerpa was laid down in 1993 (and suspended for many years until finally restarted and launched in 2008), and apart from Irbis (that was never completed) it is the newest of the Pr.971.  Provided it is in good condition, it could be an ideal candidate for deep modernisation like her older sisters. Its modernisation may need more effort however given that it was completed without SOKS and other classified systems that wouldn't be made available to India.

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    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:11 am

    PapaDragon wrote:Also any export Yasen would cost waaaaay more than measly 1 billion, I am talking about more than 4 billion here at least

    Plus amount of hardware they would have to take out of it in order to get a monkey version plus testing would be crazy, it would be like designing a whole new subclass of boats

    Based on open source information the price of a Yasen class sub is > US$ 1 billion. U.S Congress suggests Virgina class SSN costs around US$ 3 billion.

    So why would an export version of Yasen cost US$ 4 billion or more?

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    Post  Singular_Transform Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:32 am

    Sujoy wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:Also any export Yasen would cost waaaaay more than measly 1 billion, I am talking about more than 4 billion here at least

    Plus amount of hardware they would have to take out of it in order to get a monkey version plus testing would be crazy, it would be like designing a whole new subclass of boats

    Based on open source information the price of a Yasen class sub is > US$ 1 billion. U.S Congress suggests Virgina class SSN costs around US$ 3 billion.

    So why would an export version of Yasen cost US$ 4 billion or more?


    Due to sanctions, the USA:RUB xchg rate doesn't refelect any reality.


    The price of the Yassen, manufactured by the USA would be 5-6 billion.

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    Post  GarryB Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:01 pm

    Western technologies like pump jets instead of propellers are way ahead of anything that Russia has developed.

    That is an impressive claim... so the west must have torpedos that go faster than Skval-M which entered service more than two decades ago...

    The Soviets tested pumpjets... Alrosa is the Kilo class sub they tested it on... sounds like it is not everything the west says it is.

    A well-designed pump jet is considerably quieter than an equivalent propeller. Pumpjet design had advanced over many years with a particular focus on the characteristics of all the components. Russia is of course not up to speed technologically.

    Not many areas of sub technology where Russia is actually behind... except production numbers of course.

    India being a poor, third world country can't afford Western SSNs, SSBNs, so they settle for Russian nuclear submarines.

    Western SSNs and SSBNs are not for sale.

    The US would not have such a hard on for India if they didn't see the enormous future potential for selling them lots of their old naval shit to push them into a conflict with China... killing two birds with one stone so to speak.

    If they put the 3 billion on development and construction insted it probably would speed things up.

    The question really is what is holding them up... sometimes throwing money at the problem just creates corruption or makes it worse and does not speed up anything at all.

    This is why despite tremendous potential Russia is still way below China and US in defence exports.

    The US has a captive market that Russia can really do nothing about. Chinas market is bargain basement sales... not really worth having to be honest.

    Yes! That makes sense. But unlike your country Sweden there is a lot more corruption, red tapism that exists here in India.

    Developing a safe reliable SSN is not about how much money you throw at it... you have to take the time and get it right.

    That's why most defence projects are running behind schedule and most of the military hardware is imported.

    India needs a huge reform in its military..... trying to make everything yourself is actually stupid because you are not a big enough market to justify the extra cost of making it yourself.

    There are of course things you could make but you let pride get in the way.

    Instead of trying to make a super tank you should have made a good low cost tank and buy the super tank... if Tegas was a 4th gen fighter it would be in service and in service is where its problems will be fixed and its performance will massively improve.

    Based on open source information the price of a Yasen class sub is > US$ 1 billion. U.S Congress suggests Virgina class SSN costs around US$ 3 billion.

    So why would an export version of Yasen cost US$ 4 billion or more?

    No export country gets the same rates as the Russian military... I seem to remember it being written into law that the markup on weapons and equipment for the Russian military cannot exceed 3-4%... which is why exports of weapons is so important for Russian Arms companies.... it is where they make good money.

    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:05 pm

    The Russians typically export their stuff at twice to thrice the going rates for domestic orders, probably even more if its a particularly sensitive big ticket item like a nuclear submarine. Its not because they are greedy, but because the closest analogues would cost just about as much, and if your product has close if not better capability...

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:18 pm

    Sujoy wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:Also any export Yasen would cost waaaaay more than measly 1 billion, I am talking about more than 4 billion here at least

    Plus amount of hardware they would have to take out of it in order to get a monkey version plus testing would be crazy, it would be like designing a whole new subclass of boats

    Based on open source information the price of a Yasen class sub is > US$ 1 billion. U.S Congress suggests Virgina class SSN costs around US$ 3 billion.

    So why would an export version of Yasen cost US$ 4 billion or more?


    Because Russia gets them at manufacturing price

    Anything that gets exported costs twice as much or more

    Plus it's a seller's market, there is no competition and they can ask whatever they want

    And fact remains that Russia does not want to lease Yasen let alone sell one

    Akula yes, Yasen hell no

    Imagine USA leasing Zumwalt, it would cost way more than USN paid for buying new one not that they would ever do it just like Russia and Yasen




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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sun Jun 06, 2021 6:43 pm

    x_54_u43 wrote:
    Isos wrote:I wonder why they don't just sell an export yasen to India. Just let them pay 1 billions per ship and make sure they are different from russian version.

    Sell a more advanced vessel for less than half of what you would get by leasing a less advanced vessel for only 10 years?

    And then India will build its own SSN like it's doing with SSBN and just not lease any russian sub.

    They are already loosing many contracts in India. Soon they will sell nothing new to them.

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Also any export Yasen would cost waaaaay more than measly 1 billion, I am talking about more than 4 billion here at least

    Plus amount of hardware they would have to take out of it in order to get a monkey version plus testing would be crazy, it would be like designing a whole new subclass of boats

    They already have two version of Yasen. Export version can be a monkey version of the first yasen designed in the 90s.

    About systems it's not a problem, they can take a lot from kilo subs or older reseach programs. They already gave them access to a russian version akula which was the best they had at the time and it wasn't an issue.

    And India would pay for the program.
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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Jun 06, 2021 8:42 pm

    Isos wrote:And then India will build its own SSN like it's doing with SSBN and just not lease any russian sub.

    They are already loosing many contracts in India. Soon they will sell nothing new to them....

    India has been building it's own nuke sub for decades and they still ain't got nothing to show for it

    As for losing contracts Russians simply don't give a fu¢k about it because it's nowhere near important

    They don't want to give Yasen to anyone, end of story

    Maybe in 30 years if Russia decides it has too many subs on the roster



    Isos wrote:They already have two version of Yasen. Export version can be a monkey version of the first yasen designed in the 90s.

    About systems it's not a problem, they can take a lot from kilo subs or older reseach programs. They already gave them access to a russian version akula which was the best they had at the time and it wasn't an issue.

    And India would pay for the program.

    No they don't have two versions of Yasens, they have one version with different sonar array

    Also Akula was nowhere near the best they had at the time (especially that stripped down junker they gave them), Oscar and Yasen were

    Russia will not build Yasen for India because they want to build them for themselves just like USA will not build Virginia for anyone

    When was the last time anyone exported nuclear submarine? Hint: never

    This fantasy about India going anywhere near Yasen in any version is some BS that Indian brass pulled out of their asses for local consumption that idiots online keep repeating for some stupid reason

    Even if by some parallel universe miracle Russians do decide to lease​ Yasen to India it will cost them double digit billion of bucks just for version with equipment from Kilo SSK on it for less than 10 year lease

    India is not getting Yasen, period



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