Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+64
Gazputin
OminousSpudd
Swede55
lyle6
limb
marat
Navy fanboy
magnumcromagnon
Krepost
lancelot
Mir
Podlodka77
mnztr
The-thing-next-door
wilhelm
Cyberspec
Rodion_Romanovic
Gibraltar
Tsavo Lion
verkhoturye51
hoom
Labrador
miroslav
Hole
littlerabbit
kumbor
Singular_Transform
walle83
A1RMAN
franco
Isos
SeigSoloyvov
zg18
KiloGolf
AlfaT8
Benya
Ned86
PapaDragon
Big_Gazza
GunshipDemocracy
JohninMK
Book.
artjomh
chicken
Ugen
Naval Fan
Vympel
TheArmenian
flamming_python
Notio
Hachimoto
Flyingdutchman
Vann7
KomissarBojanchev
TR1
George1
Viktor
runaway
Hoof
GarryB
Admin
Stealthflanker
sepheronx
Russian Patriot
68 posters

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    avatar
    andalusia


    Posts : 632
    Points : 694
    Join date : 2013-10-01

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 21 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  andalusia Tue Apr 19, 2022 12:55 am

    This is a good article saying that the US Navy could experience what happened to the Slava Class cruiser:


    https://www.yahoo.com/news/sinking-russias-flagship-might-bad-163928574.html
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 34911
    Points : 35429
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 21 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  GarryB Tue Apr 19, 2022 8:17 am

    Yes because trying to compare an accident with a norwegian corvette in peacetime to loosing a Russian Flagship in war makes much sence.

    A state of the art modern corvette that runs blindly into a civilain ship and has to be beached to prevent it sinking and it sinks anyway.... during peace time....

    Perhaps if it was at war and was under fire which required it to move that fast and that recklessly, but they were just having some fun and it cost them an enormously expensive new boat that is unlikely to be replaced...

    In comparison hitting a mine or a fire getting out of control in a storm is not about negligence... it is about a combination of a few things called bad luck.

    But you claim the Russian Navy are idiots and the Norway wegians are brilliant.... whatever helps you cope with your new realisation that your new US overlords are total censored

    flamming_python, Big_Gazza and Navy fanboy like this post

    runaway
    runaway


    Posts : 410
    Points : 423
    Join date : 2010-11-12
    Location : Sweden

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 21 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  runaway Tue Apr 19, 2022 8:24 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Yes because trying to compare an accident with a norwegian corvette in peacetime to loosing a Russian Flagship in war makes much sence.

    A state of the art modern corvette that runs blindly into a civilain ship and has to be beached to prevent it sinking and it sinks anyway.... during peace time....

    Perhaps if it was at war and was under fire which required it to move that fast and that recklessly, but they were just having some fun and it cost them an enormously expensive new boat that is unlikely to be replaced...

    In comparison hitting a mine or a fire getting out of control in a storm is not about negligence... it is about a combination of a few things called bad luck.

    But you claim the Russian Navy are idiots and the Norway wegians are brilliant.... whatever helps you cope with your new realisation that your new US overlords are total censored

    The norweigan ship was actually a frigate of 6000 tons, so no small ship.
    Main cause of collision was new navigation crew, which included 3 out of 4 was women.
    I dont have to elaborate, as I think you understand gender quotas in Western military.

    GarryB, flamming_python, Big_Gazza, jhelb and Broski like this post

    Mir
    Mir


    Posts : 2411
    Points : 2415
    Join date : 2021-06-10

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 21 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  Mir Tue Apr 19, 2022 5:20 pm

    The Saker making some interesting arguments on the Moskva >>

    https://thesaker.is/sitrep-operation-z-11/

    Big_Gazza likes this post

    flamming_python
    flamming_python


    Posts : 7804
    Points : 7880
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 21 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  flamming_python Tue Apr 19, 2022 7:26 pm

    walle83 wrote:Yes because trying to compare an accident with a norwegian corvette in peacetime to loosing a Russian Flagship in war makes much sence.

    One was lost in peacetime due to an entirely preventable accident, really an extremely amateurish error

    Another was lost due to likely enemy action in a time of war

    Imagine if the Moskva was lost during peacetime by ramming it into another vessel

    The first case is more 'embarrassing'. There was incompetence involved in both cases, that much is true.

    Loosing a 11.000 ton Flagship isnt a "shit happens" thing. Basicly the only thing worse would be loosing an aircraft carrier.

    They decided to risk it and move it into position to use its radar to track aircraft. Well it fulfilled its job but unfortunately a trap was set for it and it was lost. They were complacent and too confident and this is the result.

    It's an old ship without any modernization done to my knowledge, so if it's like losing an aircraft carrier, then it would be like the British HMS Eagle during WW2.

    And as usual Russia doesnt seem to have any respect for the lifes of thier soldiers and sailers. More and more close relatives to the lost ones are stepping forward and demanding an explanation.

    It's got nothing to do with respecting the lives of soldiers and sailors. The relatives of everyone involved will be informed privately when such an incident occurs; what you think you heard is likely just more Ukrainian psy-ops and fakes. In case you don't know, Ukrainians can speak Russian, it's not hard for them to fake some conversations, and they've been using this tactic since 2014.

    What I was worried about is that the incident will be covered up vis-a-vis the general Russian public but no, they've been honest, they made statements, showed a parade where only half the crew is present, and a photo was released showing the damage to the ship

    Who was dishonest and disrespectful were NATO psyops through the face of Lithuanian officials, who tried to claim that the vessel sunk within hours and the vast majority of its crew perished. Which is not a surprise because even during the first week NATO media was already claiming that 10k Russian soldiers were dead, referencing Ukrainian claims.
    They constantly play up the amount of enemy dead massively and hide their own. And one gets the impression this is what they do every war.
    Russia on the other hand is holding to a strategy of effectively downplaying both its own dead and the enemy's, by referencing only confirmed kills/dead among other things; but it's figures are nevertheless much closer to the truth.

    Big_Gazza likes this post

    avatar
    walle83


    Posts : 887
    Points : 897
    Join date : 2016-11-13
    Location : Sweden

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 21 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  walle83 Wed Apr 20, 2022 12:16 am

    runaway wrote:
    The norweigan ship was actually a frigate of 6000 tons, so no small ship.
    Main cause of collision was new navigation crew, which included 3 out of 4 was women.
    I dont have to elaborate, as I think you understand gender quotas in Western military.


    So your caveman brain is saying that women cant plan a curse?
    avatar
    ALAMO


    Posts : 3495
    Points : 3497
    Join date : 2014-11-25

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 21 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  ALAMO Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:49 am

    Mir wrote:The Saker making some interesting arguments on the Moskva >>

    https://thesaker.is/sitrep-operation-z-11/

    Ukrainian forces had one single prototype launcher transferred in March 2020 to check it's overall performance, and it was already known that the serial product will have a different chassis.
    Russkies still deny the possibility of constructing homing heads, but I suppose that is not a case but rather propaganda.
    A division of Neptun was supposed to be paid in full back in 2020, and should have been transferred to the armored forces mid-2022.
    That was 6 chassis with 72 missiles.
    Two Mineral-U search&tracking stations were delivered at end of 2021.

    So in theory, Ukrainians could have at their disposal a 4 pcs of ready-to-fire missiles, with a targeting system, and probably some reload.
    And several others almost ready for duty.

    And here comes the questions.
    Again: they are being paraded by landing task forces full of tasty, loaded with hundreds of marines, juicy targets that have no effective defense.
    For a month - still do not consider any of them missile worthy.
    Suddenly, they have decided to strike an armed to the teeth cruiser, operating several systems capable of hitting sea-skimmers. And while doing so, they decided to strike it with two out of four missiles they should have.

    If we consider as true Ukro Navy chief claims about a divisional set of Neptune ready for duty in April 2022, that would mean they should have at least SOME of them ready in February, right? If not in Feb, then in March, as war unleashed? Speed up the production? Because the factory was not hit until now?!? So that should not have been an issue of limited resources applied to maximize the damage, because the real damage is propaganda.

    Smelling fishy enough for me.

    GarryB, Big_Gazza, zepia, lancelot and Navy fanboy like this post

    runaway
    runaway


    Posts : 410
    Points : 423
    Join date : 2010-11-12
    Location : Sweden

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 21 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  runaway Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:58 am

    walle83 wrote:
    runaway wrote:
    The norweigan ship was actually a frigate of 6000 tons, so no small ship.
    Main cause of collision was new navigation crew, which included 3 out of 4 was women.
    I dont have to elaborate, as I think you understand gender quotas in Western military.


    So your caveman brain is saying that women cant plan a curse?

    Just stating the facts. By the way was the Norweigan army commander Fired a few years ago after he said the following : "We now have 15% women in our armed forces, so our effectivness has dropped 15%.^

    I love women and think they are Great at many things. But compare a women soccer team vs men and you understand what i mean.

    Btw russian ships has Always had pretty poor fire hazard awarness.

    GarryB, flamming_python and Broski like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 34911
    Points : 35429
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 21 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  GarryB Wed Apr 20, 2022 9:56 am

    So your caveman brain is saying that women cant plan a curse?

    No... what he is saying is putting someone in an important role because they have a vagina instead of a penis leads to people in jobs they are not best able to do... would you like to have brain surgury from someone who is black and also a woman... she didn't score top in her class but she was the only black woman in the class so she got the job... does that make you both racist and sexist, or is it a reflection of the system that deserves criticism.

    If someone got the job because their parents were rich or their father was the captain that would be a problem too.

    Getting a job to increase the number of women on board leads to problems.

    I remember in the 1990s in Soldier of Fortune magazine a soldier who was training some new recruits on how to use an M60 machinegun said to one woman who was struggling to lift the weapon not to worry that it is unlikely she will be chosen to carry it in combat... got kicked out of the army after she laid a complaint.

    To be clear most new recruits test fire most weapons and those most suited to any particular weapon might be assigned to carry it as their weapon.... anyone barely able to lift said weapon... male or female... would obviously not be selected to carry that weapon in training or combat... what he said was not sexist... he didn't say it before she picked it up, he said it after show proved she didn't have the upper body strength to handle the weapon.

    Lots of stories like that where logistics companies met all their requirements for speed and capacity in training despite half being women, but it quickly became clear that this was because all the boxes they were moving were empty. Redoing the test with real equipment and half the unit couldn't do the job.

    Upper body strength used to be part of the requirements for that job but was dropped because most women didn't pass it, which means they got jobs they couldn't do. In training the boxes were empty. In combat the unit would be slowed down to the level of how many men who could actually do the job were there to do the job.

    Btw russian ships has Always had pretty poor fire hazard awarness.

    Fire is always an enormous threat at sea for any ship or sub... Soviet ships and subs and Russian ships and subs train to fight fires all the time... just like most other navies.

    flamming_python and Broski like this post

    limb
    limb


    Posts : 1191
    Points : 1217
    Join date : 2020-09-17

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 21 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  limb Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:40 pm

    Is there any news if it was a missile or not?
    Isos
    Isos


    Posts : 10273
    Points : 10259
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 21 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  Isos Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:05 pm

    limb wrote:Is there any news if it was a missile or not?

    Nothing and you won't hear nothing. The landing ship was filmed being struck by rockets and tey said nothing about it yet.
    franco
    franco


    Posts : 5588
    Points : 5618
    Join date : 2010-08-18

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 21 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  franco Fri Apr 22, 2022 9:35 pm

    One of the crew members of the cruiser "Moscow" was killed, another 27 crew members were missing. About 400 sailors were rescued, the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation reported on Friday, April 22.

    "As a result of a fire on April 13, the missile cruiser Moskva was seriously damaged due to the detonation of ammunition. The crew's attempts to extinguish the fire did not lead to a result. During the struggle for the survivability of the ship, one serviceman was killed, another 27 crew members were missing. The remaining 396 crew members were evacuated from the cruiser to the ships of the Black Sea Fleet located in the area and taken to Sevastopol," the ministry said.

    https://iz.ru/1324976/2022-04-22/odin-iz-chlenov-ekipazha-kreisera-moskva-pogib

    GarryB, lancelot and Mir like this post

    limb
    limb


    Posts : 1191
    Points : 1217
    Join date : 2020-09-17

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 21 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  limb Sat Apr 23, 2022 4:05 am

    Isos wrote:
    limb wrote:Is there any news if it was a missile or not?

    Nothing and you won't hear nothing. The landing ship was filmed being struck by rockets and tey said nothing about it yet.

    Is that to save face?

    Navy fanboy
    Navy fanboy


    Posts : 44
    Points : 53
    Join date : 2022-02-09
    Age : 26
    Location : New Zealand

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 21 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  Navy fanboy Sat Apr 23, 2022 8:49 am

    Hey all

    I watched the video of Moskva sinking and there's one thing that doesnt add up. Behind the smoke her P-500 or P-1000 launchers are missing. This could mean she was planned to be decommissioned. As when she hit Snake island or whatever its called she had her launchers. i wonder why they were removed afterwards.
    Mir
    Mir


    Posts : 2411
    Points : 2415
    Join date : 2021-06-10

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 21 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  Mir Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:02 am

    Navy fanboy wrote:Hey all

    I watched the video of Moskva sinking and there's one thing that doesnt add up. Behind the smoke her P-500 or P-1000 launchers are missing. This could mean she was planned to be decommissioned. As when she hit Snake island or whatever its called she had her launchers. i wonder why they were removed afterwards.

    Do you have a link to the video? From the pictures you could see the outline of the launchers clearly visible behind the smoke. According to reports she sank whilst under tow near Sevastapol - about 25 kms out? Don't know anything about hitting Snake Island but she was near the island when all this happened.
    Rodion_Romanovic
    Rodion_Romanovic


    Posts : 1771
    Points : 1755
    Join date : 2015-12-30
    Location : Merkelland

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 21 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Thu Apr 28, 2022 11:57 am

    I do not know if it is the proper thread, but...

    One of the reason of the location of Moskva cruiser at the time of the incident was to "control the airspace" in South West ucraine, Moldavia and Romania...

    Could Russia as an alternative bring a S300 (with its radars and missiles launchers) in snake island?
    The-thing-next-door
    The-thing-next-door


    Posts : 1093
    Points : 1147
    Join date : 2017-09-18
    Location : Uranus

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 21 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  The-thing-next-door Thu Apr 28, 2022 12:00 pm

    Mir wrote:
    According to reports she sank whilst under tow near Sevastapol - about 25 kms out?

    Interesting, are there any plans to raise her?
    Isos
    Isos


    Posts : 10273
    Points : 10259
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 21 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  Isos Thu Apr 28, 2022 12:03 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    Mir wrote:
    According to reports she sank whilst under tow near Sevastapol - about 25 kms out?

    Interesting, are there any plans to raise her?

    They sent a 100 years old ship to inspect her. IMO if it is possible they will.

    GarryB and franco like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 34911
    Points : 35429
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 21 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  GarryB Fri Apr 29, 2022 5:53 am

    Could Russia as an alternative bring a S300 (with its radars and missiles launchers) in snake island?

    It could make sense to put an S-500 radar set there... not sensible to put S-500 missiles there though... I would say the S-500 radar from an S-500 battery but instead of the S-500 missile vehicles I would put S-350 missiles and also Pantsir vehicles with guns and missiles... and perhaps also the 2S38... the new 57mm AA gun would be interesting.

    The S-350 missiles and the Pantsir missiles should be able to defeat any air threat easily enough, while the guns on the Pantsir and the 2S38 would be great for dealing with surface boat or sub delivered divers/saboteurs... but also the 57mm guns have excellent range agaisnt drones and light air threats too.
    limb
    limb


    Posts : 1191
    Points : 1217
    Join date : 2020-09-17

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 21 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  limb Sun May 01, 2022 12:10 am

    Isos wrote:
    limb wrote:Is there any news if it was a missile or not?

    Nothing and you won't hear nothing. The landing ship was filmed being struck by rockets and tey said nothing about it yet.

    Whats the likelyhood that is was missiles? I read an article that there werent outward metal bends.

    I heard that it was a Turkish ship that came to evacuate the Moskva and took that photo.


    What makes the Russian military not want to post any photos or reports from crew members? I don't understand the logic. Morale is being damaged more if Ukrainian claims aren't being challenged.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 34911
    Points : 35429
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 21 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  GarryB Sun May 01, 2022 8:24 am

    Whats the likelyhood that is was missiles? I read an article that there werent outward metal bends.

    The odds of it being missiles is very very low, because the ship would easily have been able to defend itself from missiles... it is like suggesting a low flying slow aircraft could safely overfly a battery of Shilkas and OSA vehicles with radar warning...

    What makes the Russian military not want to post any photos or reports from crew members? I don't understand the logic. Morale is being damaged more if Ukrainian claims aren't being challenged.

    The logic is obvious... they have not released photos or reports about any losses so far have they?

    Morale is fine... if the Russians have to waste time refuting Kievs claims well when will they start... they have a lot of bullshit to prove is fake... it is going to take a very long time.

    Both sides have a track record and the Russian track record is very very good, and the Kiev record is bloody awful and proven wrong over and over again... based on that anyone getting upset that Kiev might be right this time... well that sort of person should take a serious look at themselves...

    Even if it was a missile strike, which is possible, but very unlikely, I would think HATO ships in the region would not head towards the ship to help because they might be attacked under suspicion of being the source of the attack.

    The photos shown don't seem to show damaged radar antenna, but an exploding anti ship missile makes a big hole in the upper ship structure when it explodes...

    Look at these images in comparison... bombs exploding inside ships blow great big openings and are clearly missile hits:

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 21 9bd97310

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 21 Asmdes10

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 21 Downlo10

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 21 Main-q10

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 21 Ovc4xt10

    In comparison the image shown of the Moskva show an out of control fire.

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 21 Photo_10

    You can see the port holes are blackened where the smoke was coming out but all the windows in a house would do that even if one room was on fire...
    avatar
    ALAMO


    Posts : 3495
    Points : 3497
    Join date : 2014-11-25

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 21 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  ALAMO Sun May 01, 2022 9:23 am

    What's more, the Volna radar is directing the stern of a ship.
    If the ship would have been involved in any kind of engagement, this radar would face the threat direction.
    Both Osa rails are lowered, so it was not trying to shoot anything.

    GarryB likes this post

    limb
    limb


    Posts : 1191
    Points : 1217
    Join date : 2020-09-17

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 21 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  limb Tue May 03, 2022 10:00 pm

    ALAMO wrote:What's more, the Volna radar is directing the stern of a ship.
    If the ship would have been involved in any kind of engagement, this radar would face the threat direction.
    Both Osa rails are lowered, so it was not trying to shoot anything.

    Whats the chance that the radar was turned back to neutral position after the ship was hit?

    Also I just realized that the Ukrainians were the first to announce that they hit the Moskva with missiles, something which initially sounded more ridiculous than sinking the Vasily Bykov. Only 10 hours later did the russians announce an "unknown detonation".

    Assuming the detonation was an accident, how would the ukrainians possibly know to announce before the russians? There were no satellite photos due to stormy overcast weather. How would they know that the moskva was damaged if they didnt hit it with missiles?
    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza


    Posts : 4029
    Points : 4027
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 21 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  Big_Gazza Wed May 04, 2022 1:17 am

    limb wrote:
    ALAMO wrote:What's more, the Volna radar is directing the stern of a ship.
    If the ship would have been involved in any kind of engagement, this radar would face the threat direction.
    Both Osa rails are lowered, so it was not trying to shoot anything.

    Whats the chance that the radar was turned back to neutral position after the ship was hit?

    Also I just realized that the Ukrainians were the first to announce that they hit the Moskva with missiles, something which initially sounded more ridiculous than sinking the Vasily Bykov. Only 10 hours later did the russians announce an "unknown detonation".

    Assuming the detonation was an accident, how would the ukrainians possibly know to announce before the russians? There were no satellite photos due to stormy overcast weather. How would they know that the moskva was damaged if they didnt hit it with missiles?

    Sabotage. eg a bomb is planted by Orc sympathisers, and this is reported back to Barad Dur. Bomb goes off, and Mordor launches their pre-prepared propaganda attack.

    Its not that complicated.
    lancelot
    lancelot


    Posts : 1573
    Points : 1575
    Join date : 2020-10-18

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 21 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  lancelot Wed May 04, 2022 1:55 am

    limb wrote:There were no satellite photos due to stormy overcast weather. How would they know that the moskva was damaged if they didnt hit it with missiles?
    There are several kinds of satellite sensors. Synthetic Aperture Radar ones can see through clouds.

    Sponsored content


    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 21 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:40 am