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    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    GarryB
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    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 20 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  GarryB Sat Apr 16, 2022 6:16 am

    And on Russian side then we could add>

    1. Losharik 14 killed
    2. Kursk 118 killed
    3. K 129 98 killed
    4. K 278 42 killed
    5. k 431 10 killed
    6. K 56 27 killed
    7. K 131 13 killed
    8. K 159 9 killed
    9. K 8 52 killed
    10. K 19 8 killed
    11. K 429 14 killed
    12. Musson 39 killed
    13. K 219 4?

    It seems that Russia won this game, dont you think? Or your lost of memory is in terminal stage today?

    So if Russia gets Soviet Navy deaths added does the US get Western empire deaths added?

    Sonny boy, please grown up and learn to use pants.

    You post a warning on the forum about expected behaviour and then you post this because the member does not agree with you that the sky is falling because an old ship has sunk.

    I could care less about the damn ship... it is only a ship.

    Now if the entire crew was dead then that is important and relevant and actually serious, but the official word is a fire that was contained that did damage and that the ship sunk under tow in a storm... why should I care that a very old ship is sunk?

    The Soviet Union and now Russia is at war with the west... they have been contained and isolated for centuries... of course attrition is going to take a toll... and people will be killed.

    What are you suggesting... surrender?

    Or perhaps what they are doing... learn a lesson and move on.

    Being Russophile means that you love Russia, and if you love Russia you hate when Russians become so incompetent that even Ukraina manage to destroy their capital ship.

    When you immediately believe enemy propaganda and are so quick to bring up past failure it sounds like you hate Russia and are looking for an excuse to pile on like out openly russophobic members do.

    Being a Russophile do not mean that i will behave like a moron and try to underestimate Russian errors, quite acontrary. Friends always tell truth one to another no matter how painful that truth is.

    I agree to a point... in the west you have to agree with the US even when the US is wrong... that has led us all to this situation where Russia is forced to invade a neighbour that used to be part of its own territory in the interests of its own security and its neighbours well being.

    There are friends of Russia who are good friends because they point out when Russia is doing something wrong, but there are also enemies of Russia who hate its success and want it to fail and their agenda is always to break it by getting rid of Putin or the leadership in this or that branch of the military.

    Squealing about the loss of an old ship makes it hard to tell but you eagerness to bring up past deaths of Russian sailors suggests no empathy at all and a ghoulish delight in the suffering the west has caused because of centuries of aggression against the rest of the world really.

    You can say the west is doing all this for the Ukraine and it wont be to help Finland or Sweden or any HATO member... it is the US doing this and not even to benefit all of the US... just the 1% to sell more gas and when Putin is gone they think they can get all the other stuff too.

    He is right, this is the most important naval defeat in the last 50 years.
    S. Korea lost 1.200 tonnes frigate, and Russia lost 10X bigger ships.

    The Falkland war was the place where he set the border, we are talking about events in the last 50 years so after Falkland. India Pakistan war also was before that and Pakistan didn't lose Cruiser. Russians did. Israel's ship was hit but not sunk, and again it was a corvette, not a cruiser.

    Iran and Libya lost some 1100-1900 tonnes frigates against the world's best navy, but only Russians lost Cruiser against Ukraina.
    The Liberty incident wasn't an event in the last 50 years. And that ship survived even if was bombed for hours, Moscow didn't survive.
    Eilat was sunk in 1967 so again not in the last 50 years.

    Great, so all Russia needs to do is sink a US Navy carrier and everything will be OK and nobody needs to get fired... I will have a chat to Putin to organise that.

    Any info about casualties in Moscow? Did the Russian media publish any information about that?

    Now you ask?

    Wanting to keep your toll of the dead up to date?

    Cant compare that to a big cruiser. Argentina lost one in 1982..thats it.

    Britain and France are safe from losing big cruisers because they don't have any.

    Not true, US navy had intensively used them in many wars after the Falkland war.

    Against third world countries with no support... but then the US is a nasty enemy and any successful attack on a significant US ship would likely have resulted in a nuclear strike.

    Certainly never keen to get into direct conflict with Russia or China for that matter... very selective about who they bully really.

    We saw at the end of WWII the US is happy to murder people for fun with nukes.

    They are an evil bunch.

    This is probably the first thing in which you are right, the USA did lose more soldiers in wars after WW2 than the USSR/Russia, but also they had so many more wars and successes in them.

    Did they?

    Korea was a stalemate, Vietnam was a loss for both France and the US, Desert Storm was actually a coaltion, and the rest was destroying Yugoslavia and dismembering it... Somalia, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Afghanistan... how many of those were wins for the US?

    Now you post that new missiles are better??? Of course, they are, but antimissile defense and ECM are also better, at least in some competent navies of course.

    Not old ships that are 40 years old in design... but then it was designed at the time to deal with rather better anti ship missiles than the west has now so I think it is unlikely it was hit by a missile.

    Hopefully yes. There is a non finished slava in Nikolaiev shipyard that could be taken if they take the city.

    Then bring it to Crimea and start modernizing it asap.

    Why?

    It would take up a lot of shipyard space and work time and its design is not useful for new weapons and equipment like UKSK launchers.

    It would make rather more sense to start laying down destroyers and get frigates into volume production.

    Advantage of big ship in the past was the use of bigger weapons. But now they all use the same weapons so it's better to have two normal frigate than one huge destroyer that can be destroyed the same way as those frigates because it uses the same weapons.

    The advantage of bigger ships was endurance and carrying more weapons of a greater variety and type making them multipurpose ships.

    Modern modular weapon design means even a corvette can be a multipurpose ship, but larger ships allow more missiles to be carried which is important if you expect you ship to operate away from home where missiles can be reloaded after each engagement.

    Larger ships will also allow larger systems to be fitted including 152mm guns and S-500 missiles.

    Now that the INF treaty is gone they can look at intermediate range cruise missiles with hypersonic speeds and ranges of 3-4 thousand kilometres that would be ideal for use on ships but you would need big ships to carry a decent amount.

    But once you loose it you are left with no ship. Having two ships means having two ships, you can send them patrol on different zones covering more space and if you need the power of a cruiser, just send them togather.

    It is easier to lose smaller ships.

    I fucking hate the ridiculous cope going here. The loss of the Moskva is like the Americans losing a Ticonderoga to the Iranians or syrians. The Ukrainians had no navy. Period.

    Good.

    You immediately believe Kiev when they say they sank it so why care what you think nazi boy.

    Modern radars don't need to be huge and what matter is the close proximity to defend against sea skiming missiles like seen with the Moskva.

    Radar always benefit from being bigger... if this even was a missile attack a modern corvette would survive better than a 40 year old ship with no upgrades because its radars and defensive missiles are orders of magnitude better... but if it was a brand new cruiser with new sensors and missiles it also would have been safe and could be launching some of the cruise missiles destroying your nazi allies at the moment... more importantly AESA radars on the cruiser would be making a huge contribution to controlling the airspace around the ship to well into Orc territory.

    Endurance is always a problem unless you have bases around the world. That means they just need more support ships.

    Their destroyers are likely to be nuclear powered so endurance wont be a problem and armed support ships are useful on their own as escorts or other duties.

    hmm i thought that Ukraina is broken country? country 404?

    The US is a broken country, be more specific.

    Any broken country supported by a superpower can survive indefinitely... ask Vietnam or Afghanistan when the Soviets were there.

    Ironically when HATO forces were there there was no super power support and they still lost.

    At this point we don't know exactly how the Moskva was sunk so speculating on it, while interesting, isn't very useful.

    IMHO, Russia's problem isn't incompetence, it is that they are running a superpower military on a medium power budget. I admire this ability, but it does mean money is tight everywhere, with delayed and minimal production of Armadas, Kurganets, Boomerangs, SU-57's etc. Spending on Russia's surface fleet seems to be at the bottom of the priority list, and rightfully so, with the army, air force, nuclear forces, air defense and submarines all more vital.

    Worth repeating... but Putin is not going to forgive the west over this... the attempts at friendship and cooperation are over with the west so the Navy is likely to get rather more focus going forward and trade and relations with the rest of the world will get more attention.

    It's exactly systemic incompetence. An attitude of slacking off, lack of discipline, lack of alertness and risk prevention measures and not giving a shit in general.

    The fact they the Moskva was alone, just 90km from missile launch sights, speaks to this.

    The Moskva has the radars and weapons to defeat any anti ship missile the Orcs have in service... essentially you are saying an Abrams crew taking their vehicle through a village where only machine guns are known to be present that hits a mine and has to be abandonned needs a complete overhaul of the US Army and its leadership and the attitude of its soldiers... what were they thinking... Rolling Eyes

    I just want to say that anyone blaming the sinking on the Moskva's technologies, sensors, design etc is insulting the memory of Soviet naval engineers who created some of the deadliest warships of their time for the protection of the USSR and Russia. It's also absolving blame from the pot bellied nepotistic monkeys which apparently are what the Russian naval command consists of.

    The nazi who believes Kievs propaganda about a missile hit is reprimanding those pointing out that the ships defences should be able to deal with subsonic sea skimming missiles... making the nazi claim unlikely... amusing.

    If the Slava cruiser now was hit by Ukraine missiles it shows how incomptent the Russian military is.

    If.

    Perhaps it shows that the old obsolete ship needed to be scrapped or upgraded, but there was clearly no funding for either so the real conclusion if it was even hit by a missile and those lying nazis and their chimps repeating that lie, is that the Navy is underfunded.

    Ironic because a game right wing politicians like to play is to cut funding to public services so when they start failing they blame management and bureaucracy and then suggest the private sector would do a much better job so the billionaires that fund their campaigns and give them nice gifts can buy up public companies with everything already in place, fire all the staff and hire the competent 35% of them back at reduced wages and then just make shit loads more money.

    But the goal is not to privatise the Russian Navy, the goal is to break it...

    And some wonder why I question their ethics and patriotism...

    It is unadulterated cope to pretend the ship's age makes its loss any less of a travesty.

    It is an old ship that needs money spent on it for upgrades or to replace it.

    I would say the loss of the General Belgrano was worse.... the British managed to sink the American ship that survived the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour, which is not really very important... what is important is that a lot of Argentine sailors lost their lives...

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    OminousSpudd
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    Post  OminousSpudd Sat Apr 16, 2022 8:03 am

    GarryB wrote:If.

    Perhaps it shows that the old obsolete ship needed to be scrapped or upgraded, but there was clearly no funding for either so the real conclusion if it was even hit by a missile and those lying nazis and their chimps repeating that lie, is that the Navy is underfunded.

    There are a few conclusions that are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

    1.) The underestimation of the enemy, and the resulting foolhardy deployment of a capital asset (possibly unsupported). This leads to point 2...

    2.) ...If said asset was not in any real state of combat readiness due to historic issues (funding, disrepair) then there is a failure of assessment, leading to an inflated expectation of combat potential.

    3.) Lack of measures taken to mitigate enemy C4I, Southfront has done a good write up of the enemy (read NATO) reconnaissance and command assets that were active at the time of the incident: https://southfront.org/strike-on-moskva-missile-cruiser-is-only-precursor-to-change-in-military-situation-in-region/ It is my opinion that the Russian command is not doing enough to disrupt NATO coordination with Ukraine. For a country now in a full blown proxy-war with the West, Russia seems to be getting blindsided by NATO's typical and historical cynicism. It seems the Neptune AShM has western components, which lends itself to the possibility that NATO could and possibly did issue mid-course guidance to the Ukrainian fired missiles. Even if not the case, it is an absolute certainty they fed the targeting data required for the initial solution.

    The Moskva on paper was a potent asset, but its loss has done far more damage to the Russian campaign in a symbolic sense than in terms of the VMF's raw capability.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Apr 16, 2022 8:35 am

    1.) The underestimation of the enemy, and the resulting foolhardy deployment of a capital asset (possibly unsupported). This leads to point 2...

    A full scale war with a peer enemy supported by a super power and its HATO lynch mob gang of idiots... how can you suggest underestimation as being an issue.

    They went in relatively soft allowing the enemy to surrender and sort this out with as little bloodshed as possible but the orcs have doubled down and want to die for Zelensky and the US so now they are entering the "Kill them" phase.

    Could have been the we understand each other better now and we are so happy Kiev has chosen to minimise loss of life by actually implimenting those Minsk agreements they signed up for so many years ago.

    But no, the west doubled down and now the nazis are doing what nazis do.

    Underestimation does not come into it... perhaps disappointment... a little bit of hesitency over the bloodshed that is now going to happen, but not underestimation.

    2.) ...If said asset was not in any real state of combat readiness due to historic issues (funding, disrepair) then there is a failure of assessment, leading to an inflated expectation of combat potential.

    A ship that sank in a storm... have ships never sunk in storms before?

    The ship is the flagship because of its size. There was no money to upgrade her because her design is not really very suitable for significant upgrades... the external missile launchers are not so easy to replace with anything actually useful so it is a dead end design, unlike the Orlan class which is ideal for upgrades with UKSK launchers and Redut and Shtil launchers as required.

    Too big to scrap to expensive to upgrade, they put it in the Black Sea because it is all symbol and not actually much real use.

    3.) Lack of measures taken to mitigate enemy C4I, Southfront has done a good write up of the enemy (read NATO) reconnaissance and command assets that were active at the time of the incident: https://southfront.org/strike-on-moskva-missile-cruiser-is-only-precursor-to-change-in-military-situation-in-region/ It is my opinion that the Russian command is not doing enough to disrupt NATO coordination with Ukraine. For a country now in a full blown proxy-war with the West, Russia seems to be getting blindsided by NATO's typical and historical cynicism. It seems the Neptune AShM has western components, which lends itself to the possibility that NATO could and possibly did issue mid-course guidance to the Ukrainian fired missiles. Even if not the case, it is an absolute certainty they fed the targeting data required for the initial solution.

    A couple of points.

    First these claimed Uran attacks are just claims.

    Western components would not do squat... do you think the Uran does not have mid course updates already?

    Mid course updates require data transmission which makes a missile less stealthy not more so, so if HATO was tracking the ship and passing on target data then the missiles flight speed means it would not need any course updates to hit the ship... its problem isn't finding the ship, its problem is evading the 30mm cannon shells and OSA SAMs that would be trying to kill it as it approached the ship... which also has jammers and decoys and other equipment to defend from a missile attack too BTW.

    Second, why would Russia give away secrets of how it will deal with HATO signals and C4ISTAR equipment... who cares if Ukraine can see where Russian ships are... they can defend themselves.

    The Moskva on paper was a potent asset, but its loss has done far more damage to the Russian campaign in a symbolic sense than in terms of the VMF's raw capability.

    Yes, because how can Russian troops attack Kiev without the naval gun support they were relying on from the Moskva...

    Seems the words symbolic and propaganda have more meaning in the west... Ukrainian troops near the Donbass are about to get slaughtered enmass... it could be that this is all a big propaganda scam from Moscow... the Moskva might turn up in port safe and sound, but the anger about its sinking will be used to justify the carpet bombing of the cauldrons in the Donbass, which should speed them up immeasurably... far easier to just level the areas the Orcs occupy than give them a chance to surrender.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sat Apr 16, 2022 11:54 am

    What I'm affraid about Moskva is that it's not Neptune that was used but nato missiles, using ukrainian propaganda to make it believe it was ukrainian.

    Plenty of sailors are for sure still alive and the radar operator may have spoted the nato aircraft that maunched them.

    This could lead to a russian response against nato carriers and a disaster.
    The-thing-next-door
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    Post  The-thing-next-door Sat Apr 16, 2022 2:47 pm

    Isos wrote:What I'm affraid about Moskva is that it's not Neptune that was used but nato missiles, using ukrainian propaganda to make it believe it was ukrainian.

    Plenty of sailors are for sure still alive and the radar operator may have spoted the nato aircraft that maunched them.

    This could lead to a russian response against nato carriers and a disaster.

    It is unlikely that any western country could have hit the ship without using a large salvo. That and if it was western meddling we would have heard something official by now.
    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Sat Apr 16, 2022 5:19 pm

    Copied from Russian special military operation in Ukraine #12 - Page 17 Russia-Moskva-Cruiser-Sinking-Location

    NOTE the location of the fire! As well as the ships very close, no doubt many saved.

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 20 Russia-Moskva-Cruiser-Sinking-Location

    Home» News»Satellite Image Pinpoints Russian Cruiser Moskva As She Burned

    Satellite image shows Moskva sinking

    Click to enlarge. A ship, understood to be Moskva, is seen surrounded by smaller vessels. The image is created using synthetic aperture radar (SAR) which can see through clouds. According to Russian accounts she was on fire and exploded. And sunk later while under tow.

    Satellite Image Pinpoints Russian Cruiser Moskva As She Burned

    Analysis of radar satellite imagery has revealed the location of the Moskva soon after she was reportedly hit by 2 missiles. The Russian Navy cruiser was the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet and is a symbolic as well as naval loss for Russia.

    H I Sutton 15 Apr 2022

    The Russian cruiser Moskva will go down in history. The sinking will be studied and written about, both as a single event and, likely, a key moment in the War.

    The fog of war is still obscuring the event, and information operations are clouding it further. But we can look again at the open source intelligence (OSINT) picture. In particular, the ship’s movements and where she was when it happened.

    Analysis of radar satellite imagery of the northern Black Sea on April 13, appears to pinpoint the stricken ship. Other vessels are seen in attendance. The location of the event can now, for the first time, be given coordinates.

    A ship matching Moskva’s size and situation is seen at 45°10’43.39″N, 30°55’30.54″E. This position is east of Snake Island, 80 nautical miles from Odesa and 50 nautical miles from the Ukrainian coast. The satellite passed at 6.52pm local time. Based on analysis by multiple people, we are confident that this shows Moskva’s final hours.

    https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/04/satellite-image-pinpoints-russian-cruiser-moskva-as-she-burned/
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    Post  walle83 Sun Apr 17, 2022 3:50 am

    JohninMK wrote:Copied from Russian special military operation in Ukraine #12 - Page 17 Russia-Moskva-Cruiser-Sinking-Location

    NOTE the location of the fire! As well as the ships very close, no doubt many saved.

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 20 Russia-Moskva-Cruiser-Sinking-Location

    Home» News»Satellite Image Pinpoints Russian Cruiser Moskva As She Burned

    Satellite image shows Moskva sinking

    Click to enlarge. A ship, understood to be Moskva, is seen surrounded by smaller vessels. The image is created using synthetic aperture radar (SAR) which can see through clouds. According to Russian accounts she was on fire and exploded. And sunk later while under tow.

    Satellite Image Pinpoints Russian Cruiser Moskva As She Burned

    Analysis of radar satellite imagery has revealed the location of the Moskva soon after she was reportedly hit by 2 missiles. The Russian Navy cruiser was the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet and is a symbolic as well as naval loss for Russia.

    H I Sutton 15 Apr 2022

    The Russian cruiser Moskva will go down in history. The sinking will be studied and written about, both as a single event and, likely, a key moment in the War.

    The fog of war is still obscuring the event, and information operations are clouding it further. But we can look again at the open source intelligence (OSINT) picture. In particular, the ship’s movements and where she was when it happened.

    Analysis of radar satellite imagery of the northern Black Sea on April 13, appears to pinpoint the stricken ship. Other vessels are seen in attendance. The location of the event can now, for the first time, be given coordinates.

    A ship matching Moskva’s size and situation is seen at 45°10’43.39″N, 30°55’30.54″E. This position is east of Snake Island, 80 nautical miles from Odesa and 50 nautical miles from the Ukrainian coast. The satellite passed at 6.52pm local time. Based on analysis by multiple people, we are confident that this shows Moskva’s final hours.

    https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/04/satellite-image-pinpoints-russian-cruiser-moskva-as-she-burned/

    On the other hand several sources are stateing that alot of the sailors on the ship was killed. Some even claim that only 58 men was rescued. Time will tell.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Apr 17, 2022 4:20 am

    H I Sutton has been repeating Nazi propaganda, I wouldn't believe him if he said the moon wasn't made of cheese.

    On the other hand several sources are stateing that alot of the sailors on the ship was killed. Some even claim that only 58 men was rescued. Time will tell.

    Yeah, your nazi genes are fully erect over revenge for stalingrad... Rolling Eyes

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    Post  Gazputin Sun Apr 17, 2022 12:11 pm

    I have to say this ....

    given that Russia is generally acknowledged to have a shortage of true blue-water ships at the moment

    what was a big cruiser doing in the Black Sea in the first place ?
    .... that is just plain dumb .... it has to be said

    a big ship like that is far more useful in the Pacific

    and the missiles it carries .... aren't they "carrier killers" ?
    big carriers aren't allowed in the Black Sea ?





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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sun Apr 17, 2022 12:18 pm

    GarryB wrote:H I Sutton has been repeating Nazi propaganda, I wouldn't believe him if he said the moon wasn't made of cheese.

    On the other hand several sources are stateing that alot of the sailors on the ship was killed. Some even claim that only 58 men was rescued. Time will tell.

    Yeah, your nazi genes are fully erect over revenge for stalingrad...  Rolling Eyes

    That guy is a moron. You can feel his western sense of superiority, spreading leftist cosmopolit ideas but being a fucking racist like the rest of westerners.

    Its work is pretty shiity too.

    I never liked the guy.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Apr 17, 2022 12:19 pm

    The Atlant class were a backup class in case the Orlan class was a failure, so while it is a cruiser, it is not their best ship.

    Ironic they have two levels of cruiser while the British navy and French navy don't have any cruisers at all, but anyway...

    It is a big ship, but it also has not been upgraded and is over 40 years old so while it is a big ship it was not something they could deploy as is to the Pacific or Northern Fleet without an expensive serious upgrade.

    The core problem is its missile layout... the large angled launch tubes for Vulcan are not an easy design to adapt to the new internal UKSK vertical launch tubes.

    Upgrading it would be expensive but it would still have to keep its Vulcan missiles which means it could never be upgraded to a level that was useful, so they decided to save money and not upgrade it at all, but what to do with it?

    Well the Black Sea opens out to the Med and the soft underbelly of Europe so while operating it in the Black Sea didn't make a lot of sense having it at Tartus in Syria would allow it to scare HATO with its long range SAMs (about 120km range or so), and its scarey missiles (Vulcans reach about 600km from memory and are supersonic)... on a big ship with good endurance.

    It is a gap filler that was likely going to get shifted around the place as new ships arrived, but likely never given a full upgrade... more likely turned into a museum.
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    Post  Isos Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:07 pm

    It is true that the targeting radar is shitty for modern age. I already pointed out a few years back that a coordinated attack on two sides by sea skiming anti ship missiles would be impossible to stop for it. Because it can face only one side at one time.

    Then they are left with Osa which will have hard time tracking missiles flyin few meters above water.

    4 phased array radar with active radar missiles is a must.

    Grigorovitch has 2 targeting radars on both sides which already mkes it way more survivable against anti ship attacks than S-300 even if it has less missiles and les powerfull ones.

    Slava need either a mod or to be replaced quickly. They aren't a true enemy for US ships. Even the p-500/1000 have huge RCS and their speed isn't a problem for modern systems. I guess the new 500km kh-35 would be better and they could pack 6 times more than p-1000.
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    Post  lancelot Sun Apr 17, 2022 6:47 pm

    Gazputin wrote:what was a big cruiser doing in the Black Sea in the first place ?
    .... that is just plain dumb .... it has to be said
    a big ship like that is far more useful in the Pacific
    and the missiles it carries .... aren't they "carrier killers" ?
    big carriers aren't allowed in the Black Sea ?
    Just look at US carrier deployments. They deploy carriers to the Pacific. Like two of them. Sometimes three if you count their amphibious assault carriers. And the other place they deploy carriers to is the Mediterranean. Guess what was the closest Russian base to the Mediterranean? Before the one in Tartus Syria became available? And the Russians have deployed the Slava class to Tartus as well.

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    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Sun Apr 17, 2022 7:35 pm

    AN SPS 49 on USS stark failed when exocet sent 38 Pindos to the other life

    As I understand it Phalanx CIWS and SM1 failed to respond to exocet

    So it's not the first time a 1980s ship gets done in by AShm

    And thats IF moskva was done in by neptun
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    Post  walle83 Sun Apr 17, 2022 10:49 pm

    Isos wrote:
    GarryB wrote:H I Sutton has been repeating Nazi propaganda, I wouldn't believe him if he said the moon wasn't made of cheese.

    On the other hand several sources are stateing that alot of the sailors on the ship was killed. Some even claim that only 58 men was rescued. Time will tell.

    Yeah, your nazi genes are fully erect over revenge for stalingrad...  Rolling Eyes

    That guy is a moron. You can feel his western sense of superiority, spreading leftist cosmopolit ideas but being a fucking racist like the rest of westerners.

    Its work is pretty shiity too.

    I never liked the guy.

    haha going for personal attacks again?

    Well even the site admin is acting like a 10 year old so what else is new.

    By the way judging a whole group of people is the definition of being a rasist.
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    Post  flamming_python Sun Apr 17, 2022 11:53 pm

    walle83 wrote:On the other hand several sources are stateing that alot of the sailors on the ship was killed. Some even claim that only 58 men was rescued. Time will tell.

    You haven't been paying attention to the thread then

    Seem to recall your NATO neighbour's $500 million latest corvette sinking to something pathetic not long ago. Wasn't even at war, they just rammed it into something by accident.

    Shit happens. Whether technical, or leadership-related, or whatever. Or the adversary just finding a weak spot or outsmarting you. That also happens.
    Half the Moskva's crew is definately alive, ~240 sailors and officers. You can see that on the parade they showed. Hopefully, more survived but were injured or otherwise not able to stand at parade 3 days after the incident.

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    Post  flamming_python Mon Apr 18, 2022 12:07 am

    walle83 wrote:
    By the way judging a whole group of people is the definition of being a rasist.

    It is and you're right
    But you're also the one who's decided that Russia and all Russians are your enemy, and that it's okay to gloat at their deaths.

    I don't consider Sweden my enemy, no-one in Russia does - it's a country we have very few social, economic, or political ties with and haven't fought a war with for 3 centuries.
    But you seem to harbour a grudge, and are a simple victim of brainwashing and propaganda. Painting the Ukraine as this liberal, democratic state that the whole of Europe has to stand up for, 8 years after there was an ultra-nationalist spearheaded coup there, and they've been shelling Russian-speakers ever since.
    That you're so eager to stand up for them suggests that you've been wanting Russians dead all along.

    If Russia is such a paper-tiger than why are you on this forum constantly trying to prove it? Believe your politicians and media and get on with life, even though paradoxically as they dismiss the Russian threat they also play it up and engage in scare-mongering. True schizophrenia. There isn't even any need to join NATO as Sweden can defeat Russia single-handedly.

    As for the Ukraine, I wasn't for the war but nevermind, one way or the other that regime was always going to be consigned to the garbage dump and that's what's going to happen now. There can be no more withdrawals as the regime has shown that it's willing to kill its own civilians just to blame us, and there can be no result other than the regime's abolishment as the entire West has essentially declared war on us - making negotiations impossible as the war will simply be transferred onto Russia's territory unless it's ended on Russian terms. No old vessel sinking by the fault of some inept fleet commander is going to stop it. Everyone responsible will have the book thrown at them and a new ship will be commissioned to replace it. It doesn't matter how much support NATO gives with old Soviet equipment, how much merc cannon fodder it throws in, or even if it ships in its troops unofficially like I heard the Canadians have done. It's the same situation as 1917, the war between Russia and the Ukraine is a civil war between ideologies not between peoples, and all interventionists will be expelled or will leave on their own accord after realizing there's nothing left to accomplish.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Mon Apr 18, 2022 12:21 am; edited 7 times in total

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Mon Apr 18, 2022 12:14 am

    walle83 wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    GarryB wrote:H I Sutton has been repeating Nazi propaganda, I wouldn't believe him if he said the moon wasn't made of cheese.

    On the other hand several sources are stateing that alot of the sailors on the ship was killed. Some even claim that only 58 men was rescued. Time will tell.

    Yeah, your nazi genes are fully erect over revenge for stalingrad...  Rolling Eyes

    That guy is a moron. You can feel his western sense of superiority, spreading leftist cosmopolit ideas but being a fucking racist like the rest of westerners.

    Its work is pretty shiity too.

    I never liked the guy.

    haha going for personal attacks again?

    Well even the site admin is acting like a 10 year old so what else is new.

    By the way judging a whole group of people is the definition of being a rasist.

    I was talking about HI sutton guy. I wasn't following your discussion.

    If you felt hurt by my comment I guess it should apply to you too.
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    Post  mnrck Mon Apr 18, 2022 3:08 am

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 20 Photo_13
    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 20 Photo_14
    Presumably final hours of the ship.
    https://t.me/milinfolive/81412?single

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    runaway
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    Post  runaway Mon Apr 18, 2022 8:00 am

    mnrck wrote:Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 20 Photo_13
    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 20 Photo_14
    Presumably final hours of the ship.
    https://t.me/milinfolive/81412?single

    What i can see from the pictures is that it appears not to be any damage to hull or superstructure.
    I can only see damage from internal fire.
    Its perhaps even more of a disaster to loose your flagship to poor handling of ammunition.

    Rest in peace, Moskva.

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    Post  GarryB Mon Apr 18, 2022 11:51 am

    It is true that the targeting radar is shitty for modern age.

    Against modern threats like Onyx it would be basically unarmed because it flys too low and too fast to be stopped by S-300F and is probably too much of a problem for the remaining air defence equipment.... OSA was replaced with a naval version of TOR which is much better suited to engage munitions of all types including rockets and bombs and other types of threats, and Kashtan replaced the old AK-630 gun turrets on large Soviet and Russian ships about 30 years ago too.

    But to be fair against a subsonic sea skimming missile having 6 x 30mm gun mounts and two OSA missile systems its defences today would be considered adequate if not complete.

    I already pointed out a few years back that a coordinated attack on two sides by sea skiming anti ship missiles would be impossible to stop for it. Because it can face only one side at one time.

    The thing is that at the time the S-300F would have had the range to deal with approaching aircraft at quite a decent range, certainly well before an exocet type missile could even be launched... the tracking radar can engage 6 targets with 12 missiles at one time so a flight of aircraft coming from each side could be dealt with simply by engaging one side and then engaging the other side... the search system is 360 degrees and could monitor incoming threats with OSA and the 30mm weapons dealing with any missiles that get launched but the S-300F destroying aircraft out to 100km before they can launch missiles.

    Aircraft operating below the altitude of the S-300F would greatly reduce their flight range and the flight range of any missiles they do launch.

    Then they are left with Osa which will have hard time tracking missiles flyin few meters above water.

    Not at all, the purpose of a 12km range anti aircraft missile system on such a ship is to deal with incoming subsonic anti ship missiles... working together with the 30mm gatling gun mounts

    Later vessels replaced both with Kashtan and also Klintok (Naval TOR) which have traditionally be used together to deal with anti ship missiles, and are better than any western equivalents currently deployed for that role. They are in the process of being replaced by Naval Pantsir and likely an upgraded TOR system with the newer smaller longer ranged missiles.

    4 phased array radar with active radar missiles is a must.

    For the Pacific Fleet or the Northern Fleet, yes.. for the Black Sea and the med... not really.

    Grigorovitch has 2 targeting radars on both sides which already mkes it way more survivable against anti ship attacks than S-300 even if it has less missiles and les powerfull ones.

    Actually the bigger of the two 9M96 missiles has better performance than the old S-300F because it is ARH and has similar range of about 150km.

    In terms of fire power the Grigorovitch is more like a modernised Sovremmeny class destroyer than a cruiser.

    The new enlarged Gorshkovs are better and once they are in the water and are tested putting them into serial production makes a lot more sense.

    The standard Gorshkovs could be made too and used in the Black Sea and Baltic Sea, with the enlarged Gorshkovs deployed to the Northern Fleet and Pacific Fleet and perhaps one for a flagship for the Baltic and Black Sea fleets.

    Slava need either a mod or to be replaced quickly

    There are no mod options that would make it a more useful ship really, it would mostly be cosmetic superficial and not cheap... makes more sense to focus shipyard space on producing Frigates and upgraded Frigates and look at a destroyer design to lay down and get into service.

    Even the p-500/1000 have huge RCS and their speed isn't a problem for modern systems. I guess the new 500km kh-35 would be better and they could pack 6 times more than p-1000.

    Well they have said putting the more energetic new fuel into the Onyx turned it from a mach 2.2, 500km range missile into a mach 5 missile with a flight range of over 800km, so I would think putting the newer fuel into Vulcan and Granit might have improved flight speed and range quite considerably too... keep in mind a 2.5 ton missile going from 500mk to 800km range performance and how that would correspond to doing the same with 7 ton missiles like Granit or almost 5 tons and Mach 3 for the Vulcan (P-1000).

    AN SPS 49 on USS stark failed when exocet sent 38 Pindos to the other life

    As I understand it Phalanx CIWS and SM1 failed to respond to exocet

    So it's not the first time a 1980s ship gets done in by AShm

    And thats IF moskva was done in by neptun


    When an amazing new AEGIS class cruiser with state of the art phased array radars was chasing Iranian navy ships inside Iraninan waters in the late 1980s and it detected an incoming aircraft its amazing SM-1 failed for 90 seconds before it could finally launch missiles at the incoming threat which turned out to be an Airbus on a civilian flight path emitting the correct commercial civilian flight signal...

    haha going for personal attacks again?

    No, just identifying the source as a known western intel agent that is not reliable.

    Well even the site admin is acting like a 10 year old so what else is new.

    Revealing fraudulent sources is a public service. Bellingcat, Reuters, Sutton... a list of shame if they were pretending to be impartial and interested in the truth then they fail miserably.

    By the way judging a whole group of people is the definition of being a rasist.

    No, that is bigotry. For it to be racist they all have to belong to the same race, and westerners are not a race.

    Judging a whole group of people for the actions of their countries might seem harsh, but their lack of interest in finding out the real truth now or in the past when they were screwing over other important cultures and civilisations, means they should be judged... but they are not interested.

    They are not going to go to jail, but what they will find is that a lot of countries will start rejecting them and their culture because they are bullies and thugs... who wants to be friends with those sorts of people.

    Putin spent most of his carreer as a politician talking to the west about partnership and cooperation and the west has decided it won the cold war and therefore these Russians are the American Indians or the damn natives they have to negotiate with to steal anything of value, but these Russians seem to have more power and are in a rather better position than the nggers the west had to deal with in the past.

    You talk of racism... the Russians are the new nggers in the west... you can say anything you like about them with no repercussions... even suggest their current leader be murdered in the street... and that is the problem... the west has lost all respect for these people who defeated the nazis in WWII and who are now fighting more of them.... two diseases and nukes... nazis, bio weapons, and nukes... well three diseases if you count the west.

    I don't consider Sweden my enemy, no-one in Russia does - it's a country we have very few social, economic, or political ties with and haven't fought a war with for 3 centuries.

    And that is a strange thing too isn't it... the UK wont shut up about Russia, and the US is the same... seems to me that most of the interaction between the west and Russia is the west making demands or accusations and Russia denying the accusations and most of the time ignoring the demands.

    The wests fixation with Russia is morbidly disgusting and very unhealthy.

    There can be no more withdrawals as the regime has shown that it's willing to kill its own civilians just to blame us,

    An important point... what country on the planet has ever actually killed its own civilians with the intention of blaming it on an opponent... the only countries that use false flag events to start conflicts has been the west, but traditionally one of the evils of the Russians is that their government doesn't care about its soldiers or its people, but when the US or UK or France or Kiev does it it is all fine.

    Presumably final hours of the ship.

    Wait for it... some dick will post that it is fine... Soviet ships always smoke like that...
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    Post  GarryB Mon Apr 18, 2022 11:53 am

    What i can see from the pictures is that it appears not to be any damage to hull or superstructure.
    I can only see damage from internal fire.
    Its perhaps even more of a disaster to loose your flagship to poor handling of ammunition.

    Nah, it was an old ship, most embarrassing would be Orc anti ship missile, then accident on board, and then sea mine (most ships are vulnerable to sea mines).
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    Post  Isos Mon Apr 18, 2022 12:10 pm

    From the images the structure seemed to be fined. Ple.ty of space on the ship to work on extinguishing the fire. The crew seem yo have had only small losses. The ship hold a day on the water.

    The fire fighting could have prevebted the loss.

    IMO it's the fire fighting systems that were not working. Or maybe the internal damages were to high to fight the fire. The picture aren't showing anything to be honest.

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    Post  walle83 Mon Apr 18, 2022 11:00 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    walle83 wrote:On the other hand several sources are stateing that alot of the sailors on the ship was killed. Some even claim that only 58 men was rescued. Time will tell.

    You haven't been paying attention to the thread then

    Seem to recall your NATO neighbour's $500 million latest corvette sinking to something pathetic not long ago. Wasn't even at war, they just rammed it into something by accident.

    Shit happens. Whether technical, or leadership-related, or whatever. Or the adversary just finding a weak spot or outsmarting you. That also happens.
    Half the Moskva's crew is definately alive, ~240 sailors and officers. You can see that on the parade they showed. Hopefully, more survived but were injured or otherwise not able to stand at parade 3 days after the incident.

    Yes because trying to compare an accident with a norwegian corvette in peacetime to loosing a Russian Flagship in war makes much sence.

    Loosing a 11.000 ton Flagship isnt a "shit happens" thing. Basicly the only thing worse would be loosing an aircraft carrier.

    And as usual Russia doesnt seem to have any respect for the lifes of thier soldiers and sailers. More and more close relatives to the lost ones are stepping forward and demanding an explanation.
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    Post  walle83 Mon Apr 18, 2022 11:02 pm

    Isos wrote:
    walle83 wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    GarryB wrote:H I Sutton has been repeating Nazi propaganda, I wouldn't believe him if he said the moon wasn't made of cheese.

    On the other hand several sources are stateing that alot of the sailors on the ship was killed. Some even claim that only 58 men was rescued. Time will tell.

    Yeah, your nazi genes are fully erect over revenge for stalingrad...  Rolling Eyes

    That guy is a moron. You can feel his western sense of superiority, spreading leftist cosmopolit ideas but being a fucking racist like the rest of westerners.

    Its work is pretty shiity too.

    I never liked the guy.

    haha going for personal attacks again?

    Well even the site admin is acting like a 10 year old so what else is new.

    By the way judging a whole group of people is the definition of being a rasist.

    I was talking about HI sutton guy. I wasn't following your discussion.

    If you felt hurt by my comment I guess it should apply to you too.

    Fair enough. Although my comment still stands about the rest.

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