And on Russian side then we could add>
1. Losharik 14 killed
2. Kursk 118 killed
3. K 129 98 killed
4. K 278 42 killed
5. k 431 10 killed
6. K 56 27 killed
7. K 131 13 killed
8. K 159 9 killed
9. K 8 52 killed
10. K 19 8 killed
11. K 429 14 killed
12. Musson 39 killed
13. K 219 4?
It seems that Russia won this game, dont you think? Or your lost of memory is in terminal stage today?
So if Russia gets Soviet Navy deaths added does the US get Western empire deaths added?
Sonny boy, please grown up and learn to use pants.
You post a warning on the forum about expected behaviour and then you post this because the member does not agree with you that the sky is falling because an old ship has sunk.
I could care less about the damn ship... it is only a ship.
Now if the entire crew was dead then that is important and relevant and actually serious, but the official word is a fire that was contained that did damage and that the ship sunk under tow in a storm... why should I care that a very old ship is sunk?
The Soviet Union and now Russia is at war with the west... they have been contained and isolated for centuries... of course attrition is going to take a toll... and people will be killed.
What are you suggesting... surrender?
Or perhaps what they are doing... learn a lesson and move on.
Being Russophile means that you love Russia, and if you love Russia you hate when Russians become so incompetent that even Ukraina manage to destroy their capital ship.
When you immediately believe enemy propaganda and are so quick to bring up past failure it sounds like you hate Russia and are looking for an excuse to pile on like out openly russophobic members do.
Being a Russophile do not mean that i will behave like a moron and try to underestimate Russian errors, quite acontrary. Friends always tell truth one to another no matter how painful that truth is.
I agree to a point... in the west you have to agree with the US even when the US is wrong... that has led us all to this situation where Russia is forced to invade a neighbour that used to be part of its own territory in the interests of its own security and its neighbours well being.
There are friends of Russia who are good friends because they point out when Russia is doing something wrong, but there are also enemies of Russia who hate its success and want it to fail and their agenda is always to break it by getting rid of Putin or the leadership in this or that branch of the military.
Squealing about the loss of an old ship makes it hard to tell but you eagerness to bring up past deaths of Russian sailors suggests no empathy at all and a ghoulish delight in the suffering the west has caused because of centuries of aggression against the rest of the world really.
You can say the west is doing all this for the Ukraine and it wont be to help Finland or Sweden or any HATO member... it is the US doing this and not even to benefit all of the US... just the 1% to sell more gas and when Putin is gone they think they can get all the other stuff too.
He is right, this is the most important naval defeat in the last 50 years.
S. Korea lost 1.200 tonnes frigate, and Russia lost 10X bigger ships.
The Falkland war was the place where he set the border, we are talking about events in the last 50 years so after Falkland. India Pakistan war also was before that and Pakistan didn't lose Cruiser. Russians did. Israel's ship was hit but not sunk, and again it was a corvette, not a cruiser.
Iran and Libya lost some 1100-1900 tonnes frigates against the world's best navy, but only Russians lost Cruiser against Ukraina.
The Liberty incident wasn't an event in the last 50 years. And that ship survived even if was bombed for hours, Moscow didn't survive.
Eilat was sunk in 1967 so again not in the last 50 years.
Great, so all Russia needs to do is sink a US Navy carrier and everything will be OK and nobody needs to get fired... I will have a chat to Putin to organise that.
Any info about casualties in Moscow? Did the Russian media publish any information about that?
Now you ask?
Wanting to keep your toll of the dead up to date?
Cant compare that to a big cruiser. Argentina lost one in 1982..thats it.
Britain and France are safe from losing big cruisers because they don't have any.
Not true, US navy had intensively used them in many wars after the Falkland war.
Against third world countries with no support... but then the US is a nasty enemy and any successful attack on a significant US ship would likely have resulted in a nuclear strike.
Certainly never keen to get into direct conflict with Russia or China for that matter... very selective about who they bully really.
We saw at the end of WWII the US is happy to murder people for fun with nukes.
They are an evil bunch.
This is probably the first thing in which you are right, the USA did lose more soldiers in wars after WW2 than the USSR/Russia, but also they had so many more wars and successes in them.
Korea was a stalemate, Vietnam was a loss for both France and the US, Desert Storm was actually a coaltion, and the rest was destroying Yugoslavia and dismembering it... Somalia, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Afghanistan... how many of those were wins for the US?
Now you post that new missiles are better??? Of course, they are, but antimissile defense and ECM are also better, at least in some competent navies of course.
Not old ships that are 40 years old in design... but then it was designed at the time to deal with rather better anti ship missiles than the west has now so I think it is unlikely it was hit by a missile.
Hopefully yes. There is a non finished slava in Nikolaiev shipyard that could be taken if they take the city.
Then bring it to Crimea and start modernizing it asap.
It would take up a lot of shipyard space and work time and its design is not useful for new weapons and equipment like UKSK launchers.
It would make rather more sense to start laying down destroyers and get frigates into volume production.
Advantage of big ship in the past was the use of bigger weapons. But now they all use the same weapons so it's better to have two normal frigate than one huge destroyer that can be destroyed the same way as those frigates because it uses the same weapons.
The advantage of bigger ships was endurance and carrying more weapons of a greater variety and type making them multipurpose ships.
Modern modular weapon design means even a corvette can be a multipurpose ship, but larger ships allow more missiles to be carried which is important if you expect you ship to operate away from home where missiles can be reloaded after each engagement.
Larger ships will also allow larger systems to be fitted including 152mm guns and S-500 missiles.
Now that the INF treaty is gone they can look at intermediate range cruise missiles with hypersonic speeds and ranges of 3-4 thousand kilometres that would be ideal for use on ships but you would need big ships to carry a decent amount.
But once you loose it you are left with no ship. Having two ships means having two ships, you can send them patrol on different zones covering more space and if you need the power of a cruiser, just send them togather.
It is easier to lose smaller ships.
I fucking hate the ridiculous cope going here. The loss of the Moskva is like the Americans losing a Ticonderoga to the Iranians or syrians. The Ukrainians had no navy. Period.
You immediately believe Kiev when they say they sank it so why care what you think nazi boy.
Modern radars don't need to be huge and what matter is the close proximity to defend against sea skiming missiles like seen with the Moskva.
Radar always benefit from being bigger... if this even was a missile attack a modern corvette would survive better than a 40 year old ship with no upgrades because its radars and defensive missiles are orders of magnitude better... but if it was a brand new cruiser with new sensors and missiles it also would have been safe and could be launching some of the cruise missiles destroying your nazi allies at the moment... more importantly AESA radars on the cruiser would be making a huge contribution to controlling the airspace around the ship to well into Orc territory.
Endurance is always a problem unless you have bases around the world. That means they just need more support ships.
Their destroyers are likely to be nuclear powered so endurance wont be a problem and armed support ships are useful on their own as escorts or other duties.
hmm i thought that Ukraina is broken country? country 404?
The US is a broken country, be more specific.
Any broken country supported by a superpower can survive indefinitely... ask Vietnam or Afghanistan when the Soviets were there.
Ironically when HATO forces were there there was no super power support and they still lost.
At this point we don't know exactly how the Moskva was sunk so speculating on it, while interesting, isn't very useful.
IMHO, Russia's problem isn't incompetence, it is that they are running a superpower military on a medium power budget. I admire this ability, but it does mean money is tight everywhere, with delayed and minimal production of Armadas, Kurganets, Boomerangs, SU-57's etc. Spending on Russia's surface fleet seems to be at the bottom of the priority list, and rightfully so, with the army, air force, nuclear forces, air defense and submarines all more vital.
Worth repeating... but Putin is not going to forgive the west over this... the attempts at friendship and cooperation are over with the west so the Navy is likely to get rather more focus going forward and trade and relations with the rest of the world will get more attention.
It's exactly systemic incompetence. An attitude of slacking off, lack of discipline, lack of alertness and risk prevention measures and not giving a shit in general.
The fact they the Moskva was alone, just 90km from missile launch sights, speaks to this.
The Moskva has the radars and weapons to defeat any anti ship missile the Orcs have in service... essentially you are saying an Abrams crew taking their vehicle through a village where only machine guns are known to be present that hits a mine and has to be abandonned needs a complete overhaul of the US Army and its leadership and the attitude of its soldiers... what were they thinking...
I just want to say that anyone blaming the sinking on the Moskva's technologies, sensors, design etc is insulting the memory of Soviet naval engineers who created some of the deadliest warships of their time for the protection of the USSR and Russia. It's also absolving blame from the pot bellied nepotistic monkeys which apparently are what the Russian naval command consists of.
The nazi who believes Kievs propaganda about a missile hit is reprimanding those pointing out that the ships defences should be able to deal with subsonic sea skimming missiles... making the nazi claim unlikely... amusing.
If the Slava cruiser now was hit by Ukraine missiles it shows how incomptent the Russian military is.
Perhaps it shows that the old obsolete ship needed to be scrapped or upgraded, but there was clearly no funding for either so the real conclusion if it was even hit by a missile and those lying nazis and their chimps repeating that lie, is that the Navy is underfunded.
Ironic because a game right wing politicians like to play is to cut funding to public services so when they start failing they blame management and bureaucracy and then suggest the private sector would do a much better job so the billionaires that fund their campaigns and give them nice gifts can buy up public companies with everything already in place, fire all the staff and hire the competent 35% of them back at reduced wages and then just make shit loads more money.
But the goal is not to privatise the Russian Navy, the goal is to break it...
And some wonder why I question their ethics and patriotism...
It is unadulterated cope to pretend the ship's age makes its loss any less of a travesty.
It is an old ship that needs money spent on it for upgrades or to replace it.
I would say the loss of the General Belgrano was worse.... the British managed to sink the American ship that survived the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour, which is not really very important... what is important is that a lot of Argentine sailors lost their lives...