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    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:37 am

    Maybe PtG wont receive the refit with 80 silos but stick to the 20 he has already, fitted with Mega-Tsirkons.

    Sounds good but the only thing you could achieve would be longer flight range with a scramjet powered missile... I rather doubt a 7 ton missile the size of Granit could be made to fly faster than Mach 10 or so, which means rather than flying faster than Zircon it would just fly a lot further.

    It wont be any harder to intercept of course, so although the idea of applying new technology to old missiles to massively improve their performance sounds interesting, in practise 80 UKSK launch tubes that can fire a variety of missile types including anti sub and anti ship and land attack missiles just makes more sense than trying to raise the dead.

    Vulkan and Granit were very good missiles for their time but essentially the new Zircon is half the weight, double the range and about 5 times faster... what is not to like... loading 20 in the new UKSK launch tubes and you have 60 free tubes for land attack or anti sub missiles, not to mention a range of other new things they are working on like four Redut missiles or Shtil missiles or EW rockets or even Packet-EM anti torpedo rockets....
    Hole
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    Post  Hole Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:41 pm

    A NEW hypersonic missile to fit into the large silos.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:30 am

    The whole point of the smaller tubes is so everything can carry some from cruisers down to corvettes and any size of submarine above a few thousand tons... designing and making a very large hypersonic missile that fits in Vulkan or Granit tubes would cost money and take time... and in 5 years when it is ready all the Oscars will have Zircons in tube liners, The two remaining Kirovs will have 80 tubes each already and the Kuznetsovs 12 tubes... well even if they keep the tubes for Kuznetsov and Kirovs that is 20 plus 20 plus 12 tubes... hardly much reason to design a missile to be fired from three vessels in your navy that can carry no other missile type...

    But converting the Kirovs adds 120 extra missile tubes just with two ships... I would probably refit the Kuznetsov with UKSK but rather than load Zircon, I would load them up with anti sub missiles and Paket anti torpedo torpedos/ballistic rockets.

    In the 1990s the whole problem with the big Russian anti ship missiles was that they were so big only the biggest platforms could carry any and even then could not carry a lot. In comparison Harpoon was a very modest weapon but everything from subs and ships and aircraft could carry it in large numbers.

    Now they have missiles even more formidable than their old huge ones and they are now small enough for all of their ships and subs to carry decent numbers of them and they can also carry missiles they never carried before like conventionally armed land attack missiles, as well as anti sub missiles like Ovtet.
    Hole
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    Post  Hole Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:27 pm

    The russian missiles were big because they were designed for long range and high speeds + big warheads and not some mediocre performance like Harpoon.

    A big (operativ-strategic) hypersonic missile is already in development for the air force. It wouldn´t be to costly to take a Tsirkon and turn it into a 12m long missile with a body diameter of 1m+. At least much cheaper then rebuilding ships and subs to fit smaller, less powerful missiles.

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    Post  George1 Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:28 pm

    Hole wrote:The russian missiles were big because they were designed for long range and high speeds + big warheads and not some mediocre performance like Harpoon.

    A big (operativ-strategic) hypersonic missile is already in development for the air force. It wouldn´t be to costly to take a Tsirkon and turn it into a 12m long missile with a body diameter of 1m+. At least much cheaper then rebuilding ships and subs to fit smaller, less powerful missiles.

    and because they targeted mainly US aircraft carriers
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    Post  GarryB Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:40 am

    The russian missiles were big because they were designed for long range and high speeds + big warheads and not some mediocre performance like Harpoon.

    A big (operativ-strategic) hypersonic missile is already in development for the air force. It wouldn´t be to costly to take a Tsirkon and turn it into a 12m long missile with a body diameter of 1m+. At least much cheaper then rebuilding ships and subs to fit smaller, less powerful missiles.

    You just countered your own armament... not only does Granit have a huge heavy conventional warhead, it has an armour plated front portion to protect it from Phalanx and to stop it from just shattering on impact with the target so it penetrates inside the ship a few layers deep before exploding.

    The big long range new strategic missile, the Gzur II on the other hand will likely be a 5 metre long scramjet powered missile with a nuclear warhead only.

    The missile being tested in 2013 was a two stage missile with the first stage being a Kh-22M/32 like booster rocket with a 5 metre scramjet powered missile on the end... I rather suspect the final missile will replace that Kh-32 with a rocket/scramjet first stage that can accelerate the missile to higher altitudes and higher speeds and greater initial distances to start with... and could be made rather more compact without the big wings allowing it to be internally carried on Tu-160 and PAK DA and Tu-22M3M type aircraft.

    Besides technically the Zircon is smaller and lighter than the Granit and Vulkan... but it is also much much faster, more agile, and has rather better flight range than either missile. I would also expect its sensors and equipment and electronics have moved on dramatically and are vastly more capable too.

    80 Zircons... no.... 20 Zircons for an upgraded Kirov is not a down grade from 20 Granits... even if you leave the other 60 tubes empty.

    80 launch tubes for UKSK systems is amazing and a very potent upgrade... and considering new ships and some upgraded ships are going to get UKSK launchers it shouldn't be expensive or complex and will simplify operations with the Kirov now able to carry the same missiles their new corvettes and frigates can carry.

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