Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+64
Gazputin
OminousSpudd
Swede55
lyle6
limb
marat
Navy fanboy
magnumcromagnon
Krepost
lancelot
Mir
Podlodka77
mnztr
The-thing-next-door
wilhelm
Cyberspec
Rodion_Romanovic
Gibraltar
Tsavo Lion
verkhoturye51
hoom
Labrador
miroslav
Hole
littlerabbit
kumbor
Singular_Transform
walle83
A1RMAN
franco
Isos
SeigSoloyvov
zg18
KiloGolf
AlfaT8
Benya
Ned86
PapaDragon
Big_Gazza
GunshipDemocracy
JohninMK
Book.
artjomh
chicken
Ugen
Naval Fan
Vympel
TheArmenian
flamming_python
Notio
Hachimoto
Flyingdutchman
Vann7
KomissarBojanchev
TR1
George1
Viktor
runaway
Hoof
GarryB
Admin
Stealthflanker
sepheronx
Russian Patriot
68 posters

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 34337
    Points : 34855
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 14 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  GarryB Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:37 am

    Maybe PtG wont receive the refit with 80 silos but stick to the 20 he has already, fitted with Mega-Tsirkons.

    Sounds good but the only thing you could achieve would be longer flight range with a scramjet powered missile... I rather doubt a 7 ton missile the size of Granit could be made to fly faster than Mach 10 or so, which means rather than flying faster than Zircon it would just fly a lot further.

    It wont be any harder to intercept of course, so although the idea of applying new technology to old missiles to massively improve their performance sounds interesting, in practise 80 UKSK launch tubes that can fire a variety of missile types including anti sub and anti ship and land attack missiles just makes more sense than trying to raise the dead.

    Vulkan and Granit were very good missiles for their time but essentially the new Zircon is half the weight, double the range and about 5 times faster... what is not to like... loading 20 in the new UKSK launch tubes and you have 60 free tubes for land attack or anti sub missiles, not to mention a range of other new things they are working on like four Redut missiles or Shtil missiles or EW rockets or even Packet-EM anti torpedo rockets....
    Hole
    Hole


    Posts : 7439
    Points : 7427
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 46
    Location : Scholzistan

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 14 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  Hole Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:41 pm

    A NEW hypersonic missile to fit into the large silos.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 34337
    Points : 34855
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 14 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  GarryB Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:30 am

    The whole point of the smaller tubes is so everything can carry some from cruisers down to corvettes and any size of submarine above a few thousand tons... designing and making a very large hypersonic missile that fits in Vulkan or Granit tubes would cost money and take time... and in 5 years when it is ready all the Oscars will have Zircons in tube liners, The two remaining Kirovs will have 80 tubes each already and the Kuznetsovs 12 tubes... well even if they keep the tubes for Kuznetsov and Kirovs that is 20 plus 20 plus 12 tubes... hardly much reason to design a missile to be fired from three vessels in your navy that can carry no other missile type...

    But converting the Kirovs adds 120 extra missile tubes just with two ships... I would probably refit the Kuznetsov with UKSK but rather than load Zircon, I would load them up with anti sub missiles and Paket anti torpedo torpedos/ballistic rockets.

    In the 1990s the whole problem with the big Russian anti ship missiles was that they were so big only the biggest platforms could carry any and even then could not carry a lot. In comparison Harpoon was a very modest weapon but everything from subs and ships and aircraft could carry it in large numbers.

    Now they have missiles even more formidable than their old huge ones and they are now small enough for all of their ships and subs to carry decent numbers of them and they can also carry missiles they never carried before like conventionally armed land attack missiles, as well as anti sub missiles like Ovtet.
    Hole
    Hole


    Posts : 7439
    Points : 7427
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 46
    Location : Scholzistan

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 14 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  Hole Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:27 pm

    The russian missiles were big because they were designed for long range and high speeds + big warheads and not some mediocre performance like Harpoon.

    A big (operativ-strategic) hypersonic missile is already in development for the air force. It wouldn´t be to costly to take a Tsirkon and turn it into a 12m long missile with a body diameter of 1m+. At least much cheaper then rebuilding ships and subs to fit smaller, less powerful missiles.

    George1
    George1


    Posts : 17775
    Points : 18280
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 14 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  George1 Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:28 pm

    Hole wrote:The russian missiles were big because they were designed for long range and high speeds + big warheads and not some mediocre performance like Harpoon.

    A big (operativ-strategic) hypersonic missile is already in development for the air force. It wouldn´t be to costly to take a Tsirkon and turn it into a 12m long missile with a body diameter of 1m+. At least much cheaper then rebuilding ships and subs to fit smaller, less powerful missiles.

    and because they targeted mainly US aircraft carriers
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 34337
    Points : 34855
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 14 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  GarryB Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:40 am

    The russian missiles were big because they were designed for long range and high speeds + big warheads and not some mediocre performance like Harpoon.

    A big (operativ-strategic) hypersonic missile is already in development for the air force. It wouldn´t be to costly to take a Tsirkon and turn it into a 12m long missile with a body diameter of 1m+. At least much cheaper then rebuilding ships and subs to fit smaller, less powerful missiles.

    You just countered your own armament... not only does Granit have a huge heavy conventional warhead, it has an armour plated front portion to protect it from Phalanx and to stop it from just shattering on impact with the target so it penetrates inside the ship a few layers deep before exploding.

    The big long range new strategic missile, the Gzur II on the other hand will likely be a 5 metre long scramjet powered missile with a nuclear warhead only.

    The missile being tested in 2013 was a two stage missile with the first stage being a Kh-22M/32 like booster rocket with a 5 metre scramjet powered missile on the end... I rather suspect the final missile will replace that Kh-32 with a rocket/scramjet first stage that can accelerate the missile to higher altitudes and higher speeds and greater initial distances to start with... and could be made rather more compact without the big wings allowing it to be internally carried on Tu-160 and PAK DA and Tu-22M3M type aircraft.

    Besides technically the Zircon is smaller and lighter than the Granit and Vulkan... but it is also much much faster, more agile, and has rather better flight range than either missile. I would also expect its sensors and equipment and electronics have moved on dramatically and are vastly more capable too.

    80 Zircons... no.... 20 Zircons for an upgraded Kirov is not a down grade from 20 Granits... even if you leave the other 60 tubes empty.

    80 launch tubes for UKSK systems is amazing and a very potent upgrade... and considering new ships and some upgraded ships are going to get UKSK launchers it shouldn't be expensive or complex and will simplify operations with the Kirov now able to carry the same missiles their new corvettes and frigates can carry.
    Podlodka77
    Podlodka77


    Posts : 1023
    Points : 1027
    Join date : 2022-01-06
    Location : Z

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 14 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  Podlodka77 Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:48 pm

    Гвардейский о́рдена Нахи́мова ракетный крейсер "Варя́г"
    Russian cruiser Varyag in India...
    BPK Admiral Tributs is also there but there are no pictures of that ship, yet..

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 14 Fi_ldl10
    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 14 Fi-9_s10



    GarryB and Hole like this post

    Hole
    Hole


    Posts : 7439
    Points : 7427
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 46
    Location : Scholzistan

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 14 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  Hole Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:56 pm

    I´m shocked about that indian heli. Looks like something from the 50´s.

    Podlodka77 likes this post

    Mir
    Mir


    Posts : 2252
    Points : 2256
    Join date : 2021-06-10

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 14 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  Mir Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:28 pm

    Tough as nails those Alouette III's. Real treat to fly in as well giving you a superb view. I think the Indians call it "Chetak" or something?
    lancelot
    lancelot


    Posts : 1374
    Points : 1376
    Join date : 2020-10-18

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 14 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  lancelot Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:29 pm

    Looks like a French Alouette III.

    Podlodka77 likes this post

    avatar
    walle83


    Posts : 863
    Points : 873
    Join date : 2016-11-13
    Location : Sweden

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 14 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  walle83 Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:58 am

    GarryB, George1, Hole, Arkanghelsk and Podlodka77 like this post

    Krepost
    Krepost


    Posts : 504
    Points : 504
    Join date : 2021-12-08

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 14 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  Krepost Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:09 pm

    Extra large phot of Marshal Ustinov

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FJ-aFp9XoAIpWVV?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 14 FJ-aFp9XoAIpWVV?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

    GarryB, George1, Big_Gazza, zardof, walle83, lancelot, Mir and like this post

    Isos
    Isos


    Posts : 9874
    Points : 9860
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 14 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  Isos Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:18 pm

    Too bad they didn't finish all the 10 planned.

    Would be nice if they just resume they construction with modern stuff.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 34337
    Points : 34855
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 14 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  GarryB Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:53 am

    They didn't finish them because the Orlan class was successful... and they didn't finish that class because the cold war ended.

    Big_Gazza likes this post

    lancelot
    lancelot


    Posts : 1374
    Points : 1376
    Join date : 2020-10-18

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 14 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  lancelot Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:36 am

    These ships are severely outdated. For their massive size they don't carry that many missiles.
    Hole
    Hole


    Posts : 7439
    Points : 7427
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 46
    Location : Scholzistan

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 14 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  Hole Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:57 pm

    Because the missiles are big. But carry a big punch, too. You need a few Harpoons to achieve the same result of one P-500/-1000.
    Mir
    Mir


    Posts : 2252
    Points : 2256
    Join date : 2021-06-10

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 14 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  Mir Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:36 pm

    ...and already they have double the number of deployed Harpoons on NATO ships...but it would be great if they can give them a nice update with some Oniks and Tsirkon missiles.

    Isos
    Isos


    Posts : 9874
    Points : 9860
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 14 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  Isos Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:07 pm

    GarryB wrote:They didn't finish them because the Orlan class was successful... and they didn't finish that class because the cold war ended.

    For its size I find Slava more successful.

    The plan was 5 kirov and 10 Slava. Both were stoped because of USSR ending. They would have made a fucking powerful fleet if they had all the 15. They would have also upgraded them with oniks by today.
    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon


    Posts : 8159
    Points : 8304
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 14 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  magnumcromagnon Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:50 pm

    lancelot wrote:These ships are severely outdated. For their massive size they don't carry that many missiles.

    The missiles are still highly formidable. The collective 'West' are only 'now' developing swarming munition technology in the 2020's, meanwhile these 'outdated' missiles had this ability for the last 50 years (since the early 1970's).

    GarryB and Big_Gazza like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 34337
    Points : 34855
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 14 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  GarryB Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:47 am

    For its size I find Slava more successful.

    The plan was 5 kirov and 10 Slava. Both were stoped because of USSR ending. They would have made a fucking powerful fleet if they had all the 15. They would have also upgraded them with oniks by today.

    The Kirovs had the more potent missiles (Granit vs Vulcan)  and carried them in larger numbers (20 vs 16) and was simply better defended too.

    With two Kuznetsov class ships and a Ulyanovsk class carrier with cats they would certainly have had a rather powerful fleet of ships... if not very large in terms of numbers.

    The Slavas were the safe backup in case the Orlans turned out to be Zumwalts.... nuclear propulsion for surface ships was something new for the Soviets and was rather expensive, but considering the size of the ships it was probably cost effective for the bigger sized ships simply because of the amount of normal fuel they would otherwise be using operationally.

    The Slavas were not a failure, but were not the first choice. They were and are useful and formidable ships.

    These ships are severely outdated. For their massive size they don't carry that many missiles.

    The point is what missiles you carry... which was the core of their design. They had SS-N-35 missiles when the Orlans were built... if they wanted to fit 200 Harpoon like missiles on board they certainly could have but there was little point because 200 Harpoons is not enough to defeat a US carrier group... too slow and too easy to shoot down... the AWACS platforms on the carriers would detect them at long range and there would be plenty of time to launch fighters with large numbers of AAMs and to use there cannon to shoot down the incoming missiles.

    Granits will also be detected fairly early but are much more difficult targets to engage.

    Zircons even more so.
    avatar
    hoom


    Posts : 2353
    Points : 2341
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 14 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  hoom Sat Jan 29, 2022 3:58 am

    lancelot wrote:These ships are severely outdated. For their massive size they don't carry that many missiles.
    For their age 120 missiles (16* P1000, 64* S300F, 40*Osa) is pretty high power.
    Its a shame they didn't Calibrate & Pantsirfiy Ustinov when they did the upgrade but even then I doubt any Western captain would happily face the prospect of receiving a salvo from or attempting to defeat the defences of Ustinov.

    TMA1 and Navy fanboy like this post

    avatar
    mnztr


    Posts : 1703
    Points : 1745
    Join date : 2018-01-21

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 14 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  mnztr Sat Jan 29, 2022 9:30 am

    hoom wrote:
    lancelot wrote:These ships are severely outdated. For their massive size they don't carry that many missiles.
    For their age 120 missiles (16* P1000, 64* S300F, 40*Osa) is pretty high power.
    Its a shame they didn't Calibrate & Pantsirfiy Ustinov when they did the upgrade but even then I doubt any Western captain would happily face the prospect of receiving a salvo from or attempting to defeat the defences of Ustinov.

    These ships are too old and with Ukrainian engines, they are just one major issue from the scrapyard. Russia is only doing a few of the Uke powered ships in case they need to canniblize the others for engine parts. I am really interested to see if they can ramp up ship deliveries. I know they have the engines in production, but how many, and what about the gearboxes. The supply chain they have had to replace is really quite a task. Ramping all these up in unison is another incredibly difficult undertaking.
    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza


    Posts : 3798
    Points : 3796
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 14 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  Big_Gazza Sun Jan 30, 2022 12:47 am

    mnztr wrote:These ships are too old and with Ukrainian engines, they are just one major issue from the scrapyard. Russia is only doing a few of the Uke powered ships in case they need to canniblize the others for engine parts. I am really interested to see if they can ramp up ship deliveries. I know they have the engines in production, but how many, and what about the gearboxes. The supply chain they have had to replace is really quite a task. Ramping all these up in unison is another incredibly difficult undertaking.

    Every Russian navy ship in service that uses MGTs has Ukrainian engines. Russia has her home-grown industries for making spare parts for Ukro engines/gearboxes and to perform overhauls. These engines are adequately supported and there is zero reason to retire the ships or replace the powertrains.

    BTW the all-Russian powertrains going into the 22350 include domestic gearboxes. The creation of a complete domestic MGT powertrain supply chain was always gong to be a 10 year project.

    lancelot likes this post

    avatar
    mnztr


    Posts : 1703
    Points : 1745
    Join date : 2018-01-21

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 14 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  mnztr Sun Jan 30, 2022 4:27 am

    I am sure they can fabricate lots of parts for the engines, but some are much more difficult. Like casings hot section etc. Anything can be done but at some point its not worth it.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 34337
    Points : 34855
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 14 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  GarryB Sun Jan 30, 2022 10:28 am

    An all nuke powered fleet is not sustainable or affordable, but now they are standardising their fleet essentially into a few different corvettes and about two different frigates, one standard and one heavy going forward then they don't need a wide variety of conventional military propulsion systems.

    They will retain some older ships right now because heavier ships are not ready for production yet so old models offer endurance and range that is simply not available with the brand new small ships.

    That means the old ships are not there for their overwhelming fire power, but their size and capacity and endurance... so the Orlan and Atlant are just fine as long as the communications and command stuff is updated.

    Later updates can include experimental new large radar and sonar sets for new build destroyers and cruisers to make the new ships less risky and to improve the performance of existing vessels, but narrowing the fleet down to fewer and fewer different types will make things going forward easier and simpler.

    Sponsored content


    Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser - Page 14 Empty Re: Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:30 pm