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70 posters

    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class

    Hole
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    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 25 Empty Re: Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Hole Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:00 pm

    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 25 004311
    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 25 000421
    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 25 016310
    Nothing new. Either for larger (Mil) helicopters or for the special rescue heli.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:22 pm

    Does the M stands for Mil or is there another signification ?

    By the way we can see the same lift on the kiev as on the Ivan gren 2.0. So it is what I said. It might suggests that helicopters will be stored inside the ship and total number can be higher than expected making it into an helicopter carrier.
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    Post  Hole Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:19 pm

    To your question: dunno It is suggested in some books that it stands for Mil.

    Maybe it is a mix between lift (helis) and ramp (vehicles).
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:38 pm

    To your question: dunno It is suggested in some books that it stands for Mil.

    Do you know which Mil helicopter was navalized and actually used on ships?

    I heard of mi-14 being used until the 90s but never saw one on an actual ship. I think it was mostly used from coastal bases.

    Most intersting is that if they plan a landing pad for it, then they will resume its construction or make a naval mi-38.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:57 am

    AFAIK the Mi-14 is a coastal aircraft only and was never intended to operate from ships of any kind.

    A naval version of the Mi-38 would be interesting, but then any helicopter carrier would also carry Ka-52Ks which means high roofed hangars because of the rotor height so a new Kamov coaxial design could also be developed as they tend to be rather compact for their size and weight and capacity and are much safer on the deck of a ship.

    Helicopters with tail rotors are easier to operate with their noses turned into the wind because a small nod or lifting up of the nose can compensate for changes in wind speed rather easily to allow them to hold position. The problem is that if the ship turns or the wind changes direction or both then they have to swing that tail rotor around to compensate and keep pointing towards the wind, which can have bad consequences to crew on the deck as they rarely do it with much warning.

    For coaxial helos they can swing as they please... getting hit by the tail might be uncomfortable, but without a tail rotor is unlikely to be lethal in itself.

    A Ka-29 can carry 16 troops and armament and is a rather capable little attack helo.... something newer with new composite armour and improved avionics... perhaps a related package to that fitted to the Ka-52K would make it a rather potent helo...

    New technology from new high speed helo designs will only make it even better.

    BTW my understanding is that they are putting the Mi-14 back in to production again as it was a useful aircraft... perhaps some updates could make it even better.
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    Post  hoom Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:42 pm

    Poster from Army 2019
    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 25 30-7639189-11711-bdk-armiya-2019

    And Morgunov tidying up
    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 25 30-7639745-48154549531-62b940e86f-o
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    hoom


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    Post  hoom Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:06 pm

    Charly015 comparison http://charly015.blogspot.com/2019/07/unos-graficos-mas-sobre-la-evolucion.html
    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 25 11711%2Bmodificado%2Bplano%2Boficial%2Bvs%2B11711%2Bsiluetas
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:33 pm


    So it's not just layout, size is different as well?

    If correct then new one can easily carry 4 helicopters onboard and quite a few more vehicles.

    Or maybe they used extra space to add well deck in the rear?
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:02 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    So it's not just layout, size is different as well?

    If correct then new one can easily carry 4 helicopters onboard and quite a few more vehicles.

    Or maybe they used extra space to add well deck in the rear?

    They basically made a totally new ship, but they kept the same project number not to admit they "screwed up" with the original ivan gren...


    If the size comparison is that suggested in charlie015 blog, then this ship has similar size to the ivan Rogov, that was 14000tons full load (and max size of a ship that yantar shipyard can build). Afterall, they admitted that they need much more powerful engines for the ships of the modified project.
    They need to revaluate the project and do full acceptance tests, as it is basically a new project.

    They will also subject the design to full review from an audit team next year, to avoid all the issues with failed designs and mistakes that happened with ivan gren

    https://flotprom.ru/2019/%D0%A4%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BC%D0%90%D1%80%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%8F128/


    The large landing ships of the second series of the project 11711 will be the first to undergo mandatory pre-design technical expertise. It will be performed by experts of the Krylov State Scientific Center. Mil.Press FlotProm stated this on the margins of the Army-2019 forum at the head of the KSCC Pavel Filippov.
    The Rotterdam class has also a similar size (14000tons full load) and probably inspired the design of the 11711M.
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:05 pm


    I doubt there is a single person who doesn't think that original Gren design was a screw up

    Whatever the story is it's good t see them cleaning the mess up and turning complete failure into something that has potential to solve huge amount of problems for the Navy

    Quite a rarity to see Russian defense industry solving problems on it's own instead of blaming everyone else for their failures and coming up with excuses


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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:55 pm

    What is strange, however, is that in various sources they mention an increase in size and displacement, but only up to 7000 or 8000 tons.
    Is it "maskirovka"?
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    Post  JohninMK Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:20 am

    Has overtones of the Tu-22 to Tu-22M saga. Smile
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    Post  GarryB Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:26 am

    The old design drawing doesn't have bow doors, but the new design does, which suggests perhaps a lot of the stuff in the belly of the ship was lifted up to create a through deck presumably for vehicles...
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    Post  hoom Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:55 am

    IG does have bow doors & it was part of the original canal-worthy version.

    I actually think Charly015 has got the size increase a bit too large, if you look at stuff like the 3 holes in the stern & the radomes they're a bit bigger on the new version than the old IG.
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:57 am

    hoom wrote:IG does have bow doors & it was part of the original canal-worthy version.

    I actually think Charly015 has got the size increase a bit too large, if you look at stuff like the 3 holes in the stern & the radomes they're a bit bigger on the new version than the old IG.


    It would be super nice if design bureau would just release proper render

    I could understand secrecy if this was some super secret stealth bomber project but it's just glorified cargo ship

    It's basic advertising

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    Post  hoom Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:05 am

    This one you posted is from the Shipyard https://www.russiadefence.net/t537p575-project-11711e-ivan-gren-class#259408

    But an official comparison would be nice yes.
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    Post  Isos Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:19 am

    You will see how big it is when they finish building it like in 20 years Laughing . Just kidding don't attack me.
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:26 pm


    And finally:

    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 25 10-7671373-img-20190710-122055

    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 25 10-7671373-img-20190710-122042

    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 25 Bol_quote_shoj_desantnyj_korabl_quote__proekta_11711E_Kajman

    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 25 Bol_quote_shoj_desantnyj_korabl_quote__proekta_11711E_Kajman_2

    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 25 Bol_quote_shoj_desantnyj_korabl_quote__proekta_11711E_Kajman_3
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    Post  marat Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:48 pm

    If I understood well this will be LSD class as it could take 6 LCU so she will have well deck. That is great.
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:39 pm

    marat wrote:If I understood well this will be LSD class as it could take 6 LCU so she will have  well deck. That is great.


    Table also says (and crowd on balancer.ru thinks as well) that it will carry 12 helicopters (10 standard + 2 medivac)

    If true this is huge, it's more than anything else in this class by a wide margin. Even Type 071 which is three times heavier only carries 4.

    Let's hope it really is 10+2 because that would be epic improvement over anything Russia ever had.

    12 helicopters, 6 landing craft and on top of everything it can land on beach directly,




    Question

    Also question: where are living quarters for marines located? Vehicles are below, hangars, bridge and sensors are in the superstructure so where do they keep grunts?
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    marat


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    Post  marat Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:36 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    marat wrote:If I understood well this will be LSD class as it could take 6 LCU so she will have  well deck. That is great.


    Table also says (and crowd on balancer.ru thinks as well) that it will carry 12 helicopters (10 standard + 2 medivac)

    If true this is huge, it's more than anything else in this class by a wide margin. Even Type 071 which is three times heavier only carries 4.

    Let's hope it really is 10+2 because that would be epic improvement over anything Russia ever had.

    12 helicopters, 6 landing craft and on top of everything it can land on beach directly,




    Question

    Also question: where are living quarters for marines located? Vehicles are below, hangars, bridge and sensors are in the superstructure so where do they keep grunts?

    2 helicopters are normal load, but they could use well deck for additional space for helicopters. In that case she could not take vehicles or LSU, but just helicopters.

    So she could have 2 helicopters and 6 Serna LCU , but in that case there are no space for vehicles. Or just 10-12 helicopters from which just 2 could be used in operations others are just option as cargo.

    Or 2 helicopters and vehicles.

    This is after all 8k ship.

    Some additional info> https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/121867/#cut

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    Post  hoom Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:38 pm

    2 helicopters are normal load, but they could use well deck for additional space for helicopters. In that case she could not take vehicles or LSU, but just helicopters.
    Thats the only way I can see to fit 12 choppers on that size ship.

    Also question: where are living quarters for marines located?
    A very good question.
    Probably not specced to be comfortable at all -> can be probably a surprisingly tiny volume.
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    Post  hoom Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:18 pm

    Morgunov trials delayed till at least late August https://flotprom.ru/2019/%D0%9C%D0%B2%D0%BC%D1%8132/
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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:23 pm

    hoom wrote:
    2 helicopters are normal load, but they could use well deck for additional space for helicopters. In that case she could not take vehicles or LSU, but just helicopters.
    Thats the only way I can see to fit 12 choppers on that size ship.

    I love how precise they are with descriptions...

    So well deck acts as multipurpose garage?

    Would it be reasonable to assume that in normal setup ship would carry standard load of vehicles, 2 landing craft and 2 helicopters?



    hoom wrote:
    Also question: where are living quarters for marines located?
    A very good question.
    Probably not specced to be comfortable at all -> can be probably a surprisingly tiny volume.

    I doubt anyone expected comfort Smile

    But with hangar holding 2 helicopters it would leave rest of lower superstructure for marine accommodation, right?

    I still think that hangar could easily hold more than 2 helicopters, they said 4 helicopters in that shipyard document:

    https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2019/07/yantar-shipyard-unveils-design-of-improved/


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    Post  marat Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:50 pm

    We do not know how long hangar is, maybe just up to 20 m so it could accommodate just 2 helicopters. In that case they would have a quite a lot od space on main deck level, in front of hangar for living space ( maybe for 2 floors as hangar have to be about 6 meters high as Ka-29 is about 5.5m high)

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