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    Iran Air Defense Systems

    GarryB
    GarryB

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    Post  GarryB Sat Mar 07, 2020 3:30 am

    The issue with the big guns like the KS-19 is that such a large heavy weapon would have serious problems tracking a target in close and at longer ranges the problems of hitting a free flying target are compounded by time.

    Think of it as a sniper... shooting a person to kill them from 100m should be quite straight forward... the distance they can move between when you fire the gun and when the bullet strikes the target will be incredibly short so there are very few things the target could do to evade getting hit... especially if they don't know the bullet is coming.

    Now think of that same sniper shooting a target 20km away... with a projectile flight time measured in minutes the obvious problem for the sniper is to anticipate where the target will be in however many seconds his projectile will be in flight towards the target... once you fire even a slight speed up or slow down of the target could create an enormous miss... if the target is walking along a path you might be able to anticipate his position x number of seconds later if he is walking at a steady pace... but what if he hears or sees something that attracts his attention and he stops or slows down or speeds up... for a flying object the problems are multiplied with an added dimension of altitude... it can speed up or slow down or turn left or turn right or climb or descend but it can also do any combination of any or all of those...

    The solution is an air burst... predict an intercept point and then set the round to explode there sending a shower of fragments over an enormous area to compensate for any deviation in flight... it would be relatively cheap to implement... certainly cheaper than a shell that manouvers... though to be clear a manouvering round doesn't need to fly loop the loops or be some sort of modern day dog fighter... often just being able to turn a few degrees to deliver the HE fragmentation warhead closer to the target is good enough... even a ring of side mounted rocket thrusters to push the round one way or the other would be enough... or even a speed brake that flips out for a fraction of a second to steer the round one way or the other could be enough to get the HE round close enough to end a drone.

    Drones are tiny but are also incredibly fragile and very easy to break... a shock wave could break the wings which could be enough to stop it being effective... you don't have to shred it with shrapnel fragments, or blow it into tiny pieces...

    These systems are very interesting and have potential connected with an IADS where warning times are sufficient as it could be done cheaply but still efficiently too... together with a range of other systems including decoys and jammers and even your own drones with weapons mounted on them to hunt other drones... it would be very interesting...
    d_taddei2
    d_taddei2

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    Post  d_taddei2 Sat Mar 07, 2020 4:07 am

    GarryB wrote:The issue with the big guns like the KS-19 is that such a large heavy weapon would have serious problems tracking a target in close and at longer ranges the problems of hitting a free flying target are compounded by time.

    Think of it as a sniper... shooting a person to kill them from 100m should be quite straight forward... the distance they can move between when you fire the gun and when the bullet strikes the target will be incredibly short so there are very few things the target could do to evade getting hit... especially if they don't know the bullet is coming.

    Now think of that same sniper shooting a target 20km away... with a projectile flight time measured in minutes the obvious problem for the sniper is to anticipate where the target will be in however many seconds his projectile will be in flight towards the target... once you fire even a slight speed up or slow down of the target could create an enormous miss... if the target is walking along a path you might be able to anticipate his position x number of seconds later if he is walking at a steady pace... but what if he hears or sees something that attracts his attention and he stops or slows down or speeds up... for a flying object the problems are multiplied with an added dimension of altitude... it can speed up or slow down or turn left or turn right or climb or descend but it can also do any combination of any or all of those...

    The solution is an air burst... predict an intercept point and then set the round to explode there sending a shower of fragments over an enormous area to compensate for any deviation in flight... it would be relatively cheap to implement... certainly cheaper than a shell that manouvers... though to be clear a manouvering round doesn't need to fly loop the loops or be some sort of modern day dog fighter... often just being able to turn a few degrees to deliver the HE fragmentation warhead closer to the target is good enough... even a ring of side mounted rocket thrusters to push the round one way or the other would be enough... or even a speed brake that flips out for a fraction of a second to steer the round one way or the other could be enough to get the HE round close enough to end a drone.

    Drones are tiny but are also incredibly fragile and very easy to break... a shock wave could break the wings which could be enough to stop it being effective... you don't have to shred it with shrapnel fragments, or blow it into tiny pieces...

    These systems are very interesting and have potential connected with an IADS where warning times are sufficient as it could be done cheaply but still efficiently too... together with a range of other systems including decoys and jammers and even your own drones with weapons mounted on them to hunt other drones... it would be very interesting...

    quite agree, and of course new rounds can be developed, the larger calibre will allow, more shrapnel, or emp rounds or bigger shockwave. Of course as u say this system is only decent when connected to IADS and timing is done correctly and remember its not just one Sa-ir being used but rather 4+ so if done and planned correctly you could create a wall of shrapnel/ shockwave against a swarm of drones. The bonus to this system is the cost of the rounds a lot cheaper than missiles which can be saved for high pay off targets and more difficult aircraft.
    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

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    Iran Air Defense Systems - Page 13 Empty Re: Iran Air Defense Systems

    Post  Tsavo Lion Sun Jul 12, 2020 7:32 am

    https://112.ua/mir/v-irane-obyasnili-pochemu-kompleks-pvo-zapustil-raketu-v-ukrainskiy-samolet-boeing-737-542530.html

    Now they look like idiots with this flimsy excuse! But if true, heads should roll- if it wasn't adjusted for its new location, they shouldn't have used it at all.
    George1
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    Post  George1 Sat Dec 26, 2020 6:39 pm

    Iranian Resonance-NE discovered and accompanied American F-35 fighters flying near the borders of the republic after a series of Iranian missile strikes against American military bases in Iraq.

    https://en.topwar.ru/178548-rossijskaja-rls-rezonans-nje-vskroet-amerikano-izrailskij-udar-po-iranu.html

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    GarryB
    GarryB

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    Post  GarryB Sun Dec 27, 2020 8:32 am

    Now they look like idiots with this flimsy excuse! But if true, heads should roll- if it wasn't adjusted for its new location, they shouldn't have used it at all.

    Wow... what amateurs... surely they should have claimed they were using old out of date maps like the Americans did when they bombed the Chinese embassy....

    What they should do is say to all the countries demanding cash payments for their lost citizens that Iran will be happy to pay... from the seized money held by the west... when the west releases the money then they can get their money...
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    Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E

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    Post  Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:47 pm

    Were the iran TORM1 upgraded on M2?
    The IDF is trained against the Cypriot M1 systems.

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    GarryB
    GarryB

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    Post  GarryB Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:15 am

    Training is one thing but it is like anything... you can train against someone with a knife, but that person will try to use the knife in specific ways which you will practise against and learn to counter.

    It is useful experience but not really meaningful if you don't take the time to find out what techniques and tactics your actual enemy uses and get the person you are practising against to use those tactics and techniques.

    Equally your enemy might try to look at things from your perspective and perhaps even use spies to find out what was tried and what worked and what did not so they can form new tactics for defeating enemy air power.

    I would add that having capable missile systems would lead to enemy aircraft and weapons operating at lower altitudes, especially through mountains and hills if possible to delay detection... in which case even relatively small calibre guns can come in to play. Specially designed rounds with reduced propellent loads but enlarged payloads with more HE and more fragments... perhaps a directed payload of fragments that can generate a screen of debris that can bring down even a large group of drones at one time could be developed. Shorter range actually means less time for the target to deviate from its current flightpath or flight speed, meaning more chance of a kill.

    Would also be absolutely devastating against enemy troops operating out in the open in the mountains...
    Hole
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    Post  Hole Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:57 pm

    Iran Air Defense Systems - Page 13 Ey0xy510
    Iran Air Defense Systems - Page 13 Ey0xyw10
    Iran Air Defense Systems - Page 13 Ey0xzf10
    Some iranian SAM/ABM system.

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    UZB-76

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    Post  UZB-76 Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:39 pm

    That is Bavar-373
    George1
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    Post  George1 Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:27 pm


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