Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK

Ufa on the way to Vladivostok ??
Unknown Russian Navy's Kilo-class diesel-electric submarine spotted earlier this week in Gulf of Finland midway between Helsinki and Tallinn.

GarryB wrote:The Lada will be the superior vessel and you can operate 6 ladas with the crew numbers of 3 Kilos, but it remains to be seen how quickly they can be built of course.

The lead boat of the Project 677/Lada-class St. Petersburg (B-585) is already scheduled for decommissioning & recycling.

Currently there are only two other Project 677M/Lada-class boats units available: Velikiye Luki (B-587) & Kronstadt (B-586). Both are undergoing various post-launch tests and refits after unspecified operating issues were discovered during the first sea trials.

Two more hulls are under construction: Vologda and Yaroslavl with expected launch in the second half of the decade, or early 30s (if ever).

So much for the Lada-class.

Lighter and quieter than Improved Kilo class subs with half the crew size, and able to do the job of an SSN in shallow waters at a fraction of the price... of course a nazi like you would hate it... not enough profit margin to rob taxpayers.

GarryB wrote:Lighter and quieter than Improved Kilo class subs with half the crew size, and able to do the job of an SSN in shallow waters at a fraction of the price... of course a nazi like you would hate it... not enough profit margin to rob taxpayers.

Don't get emotional.

Lada-class is not a threat. It took sixteen years to complete one hull (Velikiye Luki). The two commissioned are still not ready for active service.

I am not emotional... I love it when western "experts" under estimate Russian technology... it just makes them look stupid.

What you are not appreciating is that Russia designs and then builds stuff and then tests it to make sure it does what they want it to do or can at least eventually be improved to do what they want it to do.

That takes longer, but you end up with stuff that actually works.

The Microsoft method of putting out half ready designs with big boasts and promises that the next upgrade will fix everything is a very American development model and it seems to be really terrible... they don't even want to pretend the F-35 is any good or anywhere near being fully operational yet... the amazing logistics system which was going to make enormous savings and make operational costs cheap and easy was cancelled wasn't it?

They set the bar very high with the Lada class sub and some aspects needed improvements to be made before goals could be achieved...

GarryB wrote:Lighter and quieter than Improved Kilo class subs with half the crew size, and able to do the job of an SSN in shallow waters at a fraction of the price... of course a nazi like you would hate it... not enough profit margin to rob taxpayers.

Last heard they were developing fuel cell AIPs.

Fuel cell AIP is not used to charge batteries. They drive the electric motor at very low speeds, cutting down on power consumption using the batteries for the same. Japan used Stirling before because desired battery tech wasnt available then.

And how do you know its quieter when there is no information available. Nothing like a good guess to spice up your life. Who needs evidence when you have intuition?

Last heard they were developing fuel cell AIPs.

The Fuel Cell AIPs they are developing will be ground breaking earth shattering developments... the core problem with fuel cells is that hydrogen is hard to store and transport.... you either make it very cold or under high pressure or you need an entire shopping centre sized building to carry enough fuel for a ship or aircraft to operate any useful distance.

The cost of converting everything to hydrogen is going to be enormous... and more so because hydrogen can leech through many metals so they need special containment.

The new Russian fuel cells use fossil fuels, which are just hydrocarbons... but there is no combustion so the carbon is not burned and released into the atmosphere as carbon monoxide, it is left as a solid which is actually a valuable material that can be collected for use in carbon fibre and carbon nanotube production.

The technology is revolutionary because its energy density is much higher than with normal hydrogen fuel cells so it generates rather more power and it can be used in any port or airport or fuel station with existing infrastructure to create and transport and handle existing fuel types.

In a submarine it would require an oxygen source but a small tank of liquid oxygen or hydrogen peroxide would give you oxygen and some water that could be converted by the fuel cell into extra hydrogen fuel and also more oxygen to process hydrogen with...

But Japanese experience shows that fuel cells don't generate enough useful power and so they stopped making fuel cell subs and just replaced the fuel cells and the oxygen and hydrogen tanks with more lithium ion batteries that hold more charge.

Fuel cell AIP is not used to charge batteries. They drive the electric motor at very low speeds, cutting down on power consumption using the batteries for the same.

Hahahaha... what are you saying... fuel cell AIPs don't generate enough power to charge the batteries but they do generate enough power to run the electric motors moving the sub around...

A diesel electric sub has a diesel motor and electric motors and before setting sail they normally fully charge their batteries if they can so then they can sail out of port under diesel power and then immediately submerge and start operations... when operating submerged they operate on batteries because unless they are snorkeling they can't run their diesel engines.

The batteries run everything from all the computers and the heating or cooling and all the air fans and carbon dioxide scrubbers as well as any water pumps and the electric motor turning the propeller... as the batteries get low on charge a diesel electric will then move to close to the surface and snorkel and run their diesel engines to charge the batteries and also directly power the propeller so the batteries don't do anything but be charged up and depending on the sub that might take 4 to 8 hours, and then you are good to go for a week or three depending on the sub.

For a coastal defence sub that really isn't a problem, you can hide in an inlet or do it amongst friendly or neutral ships and be perfectly fine.

The Japanese found with their AIPs... which are amongst the best in the world BTW, was that the AIPs don't generate enough power to keep everything running and fast charge the batteries so it would take days to charge the batteries without surfacing and using diesel engines... even creeping along at low speed it meant that with a normal diesel you have to come to near the surface once a week or once every three weeks depending on the sub to make noise and charge your batteries for 4-8 hours and then you were good to do your job for another week to three weeks, the AIP powered sub could remain submerged for its entire operational period at sea, but instead of 4-8 hours of being unable to do its job it was more like a couple of days to charge the batteries fully to get back to normal underwater speed and performance.

Their solution was to replace the AIP with double the batteries so instead of two weeks submerged before you had to recharge they would get four weeks... which is about as much food and other supplies they can carry anyway.

The Russian AIP delivers rather more energy but they recognise the same issues and have delayed the AIP introduction for subs indefinitely... but that is not to say they have stopped work on them... they will be useful across the board anywhere there is currently an internal combustion engine they could replace it with this hydrogen fuel cell... even if it does not create enough energy to replace a big motor, they could use it to create hydrogen which could be burned in a gas turbine engine (burning pure hydrogen means no carbon released into the atmosphere) and you could use normal fuels going through the AIP to create hydrogen and solid carbon, while a hydrogen powered jet engine can generate the electricity to turn the fuel into hydrogen and deliver the energy the vehicle needs to move... allowing compact fuel containment and delivery in the form of petrol or diesel or kerosene or any other type of hydrocarbon.

And how do you know its quieter when there is no information available.

Hahaha... yes, obviously the newer SSK is louder than the sub it is replacing... that was one of the safety requirements so their own ships didn't run in to them.

Russia is not the US where a failure is no hindrance to a long career.... F-35... Joe Biden... Hilary Clinton... the difference is that the Russians will try to fix things with problems, or discard them and try something different... in the US they just elect their failures into office...

Nothing like a good guess to spice up your life. Who needs evidence when you have intuition?

It is OK... I understand you are stuck cheering for the wrong team... but surely it must be comforting that Putin is not a sick sadistic bastard like the people in office in your neck of the woods... if you got rid of the self serving bastards you have in power and replaced them with sensible reasonable people that respected other countries for being independent countries rather than just the ones that can hurt you then he would probably be open to better relations, but the west is not interested in better relations with anyone... they want dominance in all areas which is why Putin is going to steer Russia away from all ties with the west because the west is toxic and is self harming with is actions... but Russia and China can't help them... they need to realise there is a problem and start helping themselves by actually living up to the high morals and ethics it judges everyone else by except itself.

The US needs to grow up... but like any teenager you can't tell them, they just wont listen till they are ready.

I don't wish ill for the US, but I do wish it would keep its tentacles out of everyone elses business and only offers advice when asked for it...

Even that seems to be too much it seems.

GarryB wrote: fuel cell AIPs don't generate enough power to charge the batteries but they do generate enough power to run the electric motors moving the sub around...

You made a false statement that AIP fuel cells boost batteries, but I’ve busted your lack of knowledge. They have nothing to do with charging batteries.

GarryB wrote:Hahaha... yes, obviously the newer SSK is louder than the sub it is replacing... that was one of the safety requirements so their own ships didn't run in to them.

More intuition. Russia couldn't even create a decent AIP or lithium ion batteries but their LADA class is quieter. How? Because GarryB lives by his motto - absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

You made a false statement that AIP fuel cells boost batteries, but I’ve busted your lack of knowledge. They have nothing to do with charging batteries.

If the fuel cell could run the sub but could not charge the batteries then what the **** are the batteries there for and when do they get charged.... do they only charge the batteries in port and then spend the rest of the trip underwater... when the batteries run out they use the AIP until their tour of duty is finished in a months time?

The AIP powers the sub and charges the batteries at the same time. Their lack of power means that when they are charging the batteries the sub is essentially useless and runs on minimal power and not moving... a sitting duck... but because essentials like lighting and carbon dioxide scrubbers and heating or cooling have to continue running... also powered by the AIP then the charging of the batteries is not fast like it is with diesel generators... it takes days of waiting for the batteries to charge because the AIP is running the sub as well as charging the batteries.

The advantage is that it does not have to surface while it is charging but the downside is it takes days to charge during which it is useless as a weapon system... which is why the Japs now have replace the AIP with more batteries.

More intuition. Russia couldn't even create a decent AIP or lithium ion batteries but their LADA class is quieter. How? Because GarryB lives by his motto - absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Nothing to do with intuition, the Russians tested the sub and decided to continue with the class because it is BETTER, and of the many things they say it is better than the Improved Kilo class including it is lighter and faster and can operate longer submerged and carries better and more weaponry than an Improved Kilo with half the crew of an Improved Kilo, and it also has improved sensors and equipment on board... and is quieter.

My intuition simply does not come in to it.

Try going to the Lada thread and reading a bit.

No one is really using or buying those AIP submarines. Japan maybe. Russia has SSN for long endurence.

That is an important point I am trying to make but whatshisname doesn't get it.

Japan is the country with the most operational experience with AIP subs using hydrogen fuel cells and their newest sub does not have an AIP... they replaced it with extra batteries.

Russia isn't desperate for AIP subs because as you mention they have SSNs so any long range mission that is long endurance where a sub has to remain submerged for weeks and months they can just send an SSN or SSGN. For SSK missions which are mostly coastal and in shallow water an SSK is often vastly superior but there is often no need for months being submerged because they are usually operating close to Friendly waters where snorkelling is relatively safe or simply returning to base to recharge is an option.

The Russians are developing nuclear power plants that can be placed on the ocean floor so they could have future SSKs that submerge and recharge at one of these mobile charging stations and never need to come to the surface.

Their new graphite technology batteries are not effected by temperature which means they will work even if frozen, but more importantly they will hold charge even when they are very hot which means super fast charging in perhaps a couple of hours... so even a diesel engine powered SSK could still be practical.

GarryB wrote:fuel cell AIPs don't generate enough power to charge the batteries but they do generate enough power to run the electric motors moving the sub around

GarryB wrote:The AIP powers the sub and charges the batteries at the same time.

Your lack of knowledge about fuel cell AIP getting exposed by your two contradictory statements. Fist you said fuel cell AIPs do not charge batteries and then you said they do.

RTN wrote:Russia couldn't even create a decent AIP or lithium ion batteries but their LADA class is quieter. How?

The Lada is quieter than the Kilo because of its single hull design. Because it does not have the outer hull the sub does not make the typical noises of a double hulled submarine where the thin outer hull expands and contracts with boat movement.

As for AIP there are only two viable systems in the market. The Swedish Stirling engine system, and the German hydrogen fuel cell system. Several other countries are working on their own AIP systems but have not gotten them to work yet.

The Swedish Stirling engine AIP was used in Japanese submarines, but the Japanese, which are the major user of it, ditched it for lithium-ion batteries. The Japanese figured out they get roughly the same endurance with the modern batteries and you can bet the electric propulsion is quieter than the mechanical Stirling engine.

The German hydrogen fuel cell AIP requires the port facilities you use to be able to handle pumping hydrogen and liquid oxygen propellants into the submarine. Which is a logistical pain really. Which is why everyone else who is trying to create fuel cell AIP for submarines is trying to create a reformer to extract hydrogen from regular diesel fuel. Spain, Russia, and India are trying to do this.

The Lada class also has many other improvements over the Kilo besides lower noise. It is smaller, which makes it more easy to hide in the small confines of the Baltic, it uses a permanent magnet electric engine which is more efficient which means you get more endurance, it has much improved sonar, it only needs half the crew due to increased automation, which will reduce operating costs, it has much more modern CnC facilities.

Russia is working on both the fuel cell AIP system diesel reformer unit and lithium ion fuel cells. Russia already fabricates lithium ion batteries, both the cells themselves, and battery packs for battery electric buses, so I doubt it will be that hard to make a battery pack for a submarine if they want to.

I missed a word.

AIP cells are not powerful enough to run the sub and charge the batteries quickly at the same time.

In fact they are not powerful enough to charge the batteries quickly in any circumstance because they are massively under powered compared with the diesel engines most SSKs use.

If you read what I was saying you would have worked that out for yourself.

Diesel generators are powerful and can move a submarine around and rapidly charge batteries at the same time because they generate a lot of continuous power.

AIPs generate much less power and so take much much longer to charge the batteries because they are also running the ships systems to keep everything working.

The diesel engine will charge the batteries to full power in 4 to 8 hours... in fact probably 4 to 6 hours, during which the SSK has to remain at snorkel depth and obviously is making noise with diesel engines running, but with modern batteries the pay off is that for the next week or two they run silent and can submerge and remain hidden without needing to run the engines again for that time.

The AIP systems wont be used till the sub has been at sea for a week or two weeks because it would be running on batteries just like the Diesel electric boat would, but when the AIP sub has used up the power in the batteries it then switches to AIP which has to keep everything running on the sub, but also charge the batteries... which means you can no longer move around much at all because the main electric motor connected to the screw uses too much power and if you are sailing around at 12 knots underwater you wont be recharging your batteries and when you run out of hydrogen you are screwed and will actually have to surface and probably be towed back to base.

A diesel engine with an electric motor attached to the drive shaft can move the sub around normally and generate electricity to run all the subs electrics and charge the batteries quickly because it generates a lot of power.

But no, you keep thinking that AIP subs are amazing and the Russian Navy is shit because it doesn't have any.

Russia is working on both the fuel cell AIP system diesel reformer unit and lithium ion fuel cells. Russia already fabricates lithium ion batteries, both the cells themselves, and battery packs for battery electric buses, so I doubt it will be that hard to make a battery pack for a submarine if they want to.

And they are also working on new battery technologies too, but they also have no urgent need for a conventional sub that pretends to be a nuclear powered sub.

They also have mini subs with nuclear power too with all the endurance in the world... it is not something they could possibly spend enormous amounts of money on because their entire defence budget is less than 70 billion which is split unevenly between the various branches of their military... which so far has not benefited their Navy which in the past has been a low priority.

Most expenses in the Navy are long term so a 2 billion dollar sub does not require all 2 billion to be paid when it is ordered... it can be spread over four or five years, and planning for things takes a long time too because a ship or a sub is not like a car you can make dozens every day...

And good as those French or Japanese subs might be they don't carry hypersonic anti ship and land attack missiles, and soon they will have their naval version of the Kh-101 with a range of 4,500km to hit land based targets.

Now that the oil companies have turned into Energy companies the investment in battery technology is now enormous and is showing lots of promise in lots of different areas.

@RTN,

RTN wrote:Your lack of knowledge about fuel cell AIP getting exposed by your two contradictory statements. Fist you said fuel cell AIPs do not charge batteries and then you said they do.

That is amusing from someone who has just recently said:

RTN wrote:You made a false statement that AIP fuel cells boost batteries, but I’ve busted your lack of knowledge. They have nothing to do with charging batteries.

I was trying to say that AIPs are not powerful enough to both at the same time charge the batteries on a sub quickly and also run the ship at full power with full ability to run at full speeds and operate all the systems on board.

When charging the batteries an AIP SSK goes into low power mode to minimise the amount of electricity being used... and it still takes an enormous amount of time effectively out of action unable to perform normal operations to charge the batteries even if they do have the luxury of remaining underwater.

A nuclear power plant like those used in their laser truck could substitute the AIP and be started up and charge the batteries in a similar time to the diesel engines and run the sub in normal mode (perhaps not high power everything on mode but at least aware of the things around it in the water...) but extra batteries make more sense because it is simpler and also probably cheaper even though the batteries themselves are not super cheap.

Lithium ion batteries are dangerous and can explode but if you follow normal simple safety rules you should be OK.

Look at the number of electric vehicles out there in the western world... and how many laptops and other things with such batteries and you can see despite the number of fkn morons there are in the west, the number of explosions and fires is actually quite small.

When you design something professionally you don't get out a blank piece of paper and some crayons.

The first thing you do is scour every source you can get your hands on of other peoples designs for solving the same problems you have to solve.

For any problem there are a range of different solutions each with advantages and disadvantages and as a designer you have to pick out what is important and what is not to decide which way you want to go and which solutions work best... so you look carefully at each design and look at each solution and its advantages and disadvantages...

Going supersonic in the 70s and 80s meant you needed missiles that were 5 to 7 tons each to get decent range and warhead payload... in the 90s it dropped to 2 tons... and these days it is still in the 2-3 ton weight class but the speed has gone up three or four times.

If you need a missile to go mach 2 then a ramjet would work and a turbojet might even be an option depending on what you have available, but for mach 5 and faster it is either rocket or scramjet... and if you can't make a scramjet then that means rocket.

Isos wrote:All new projects of increase endurence SSK go with Li/ion batteries. The same batteries that catch fire out of nothing on electric cars.

New SSKs will have AIP and lithium ion batteries.

Though I'm not sure if there is a need for SSKs going forward when large unmanned underwater vehicles can do the job. An IL-76 can carry at lest one of these UUVs and drop it in the middle of the ocean that can then scout for enemy subs and ships.

Though I'm not sure if there is a need for SSKs going forward when large unmanned underwater vehicles can do the job. An IL-76 can carry at lest one of these UUVs and drop it in the middle of the ocean that can then scout for enemy subs and ships.

Most large unmanned underwater vessels are very very heavy and dropping it out the back of any aircraft would be a serious problem.

Normally when dropping stuff out the back of a plane in flight they are relatively short and sitting on pallets... and about the heaviest things they drop are BMD vehicles at about 14-16 tons each.

Think of the strain of a 50 ton object on an aircraft... first of all during flight it would need to sit near the wings so in the middle of the aircraft to balance the weight... when you open the rear doors and move the payload backwards to roll it out the rear the weight shift is going to be a real bastard for the pilot to handle to keep the aircraft in level flight and of course as it rolls out the back of the aircraft the weight is on the rear ramp as it goes and being dragged out by parachutes means extra force on that weight on the absolute rear of the aircraft... if the rear end of the aircraft does not get ripped off I would be surprised... but that is just the start because a 50 ton payload that is not going to be a compact square like a pallet is going to be very difficult to stabilise because the way it comes out the plane it will probably be tumbling which is going to make parachute deployment to stabilise the load rather complicated and difficult and at 50 tons it is going to need a hell of a lot of very big parachutes that all need to work and not interact with each other...

I would suggest if you want to do that sort of thing some sort of airship could be used... a doughnut shaped design with winches and onboard cranes so it can go to where the UUV is made and land on top of it and attach it to the airship and then drop ballast and takeoff and fly out to open ocean where you want it delivered and then land on the ocean surface and lower the UUV into the water and then release it and fly away.