Chengdu J-10

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Is upgraded J-10 series PLA’s answer to Taiwan’s F-16 Viper?
Taiwan will never be able to outspend China on fighters, ships & subs. The US won't risk putting permanent bases there- the B-2s stopped using Guam already. The noose on Taiwan's neck is tightening, slowly but surely!

Tsavo Lion wrote:Is upgraded J-10 series PLA’s answer to Taiwan’s F-16 Viper?
Taiwan will never be able to outspend China on fighters, ships & subs. The US won't risk putting permanent bases there- the B-2s stopped using Guam already. The noose on Taiwan's neck is tightening, slowly but surely!

At the rate they keep crashing I doubt it is an answer for anything.

13 F-16s crashed/damaged from 1998 to 2018, or average 1.5 per year; perhaps it's due to lack of proper spare parts & high op tempo.
http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/F-16/mishaps-and-accidents/airforce/RoCAF/

“Although Taiwan has nearly 400 combat aircraft in service, far fewer of these are operationally capable,” the report lamented. “Taiwan recognizes that it needs a sustainable replacement for obsolete and problematic aircraft platforms.”
Taiwan’s fighter pilots hadn’t received new planes for more than a decade. ..“Due to the lack of affordable spare parts, the Taiwanese air force struggles to maintain mission capable rates over 30%,” the defense contractor stated. https://warisboring.com/that-one-time-lockheed-hated-on-the-taiwanese-air-force/
Asked if there are enough F-16s out there for the demand, Grant said: “No.” “But if there’s not, not every country needs an F-16,” said Lt. Gen. Arnold Bunch, the Air Force’s military deputy for acquisition. “Sometimes we work with them to come up with other alternatives.” https://www.defenseone.com/business/2017/06/european-allies-want-used-f-16-fighter-jet/138812/

Now that problem is being partially solved. Later, they may get some more used F-16s for parts/modernization from the US &/ others.
https://www.military.com/dodbuzz/2017/03/24/poland-used-f16s

OTH, there was only 1 known crash of a J-10:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu_J-10#Accidents_and_incidents
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/what-pla-air-crashes-really-signal
https://topwar.ru/148842-ministr-oborony-knr-za-tajvan-gotovy-voevat.html

J-10 dogfight training with Chinese pilots communicating in English.

Some high quality pictures of J-10A and J-10B.

Looks like a Ye-8 variant of the MiG-21 and an F-16 had a baby... and it is a cutie...

J-10C

Pakistan orders the J-10.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sebastienroblin/2021/12/31/minister-pakistan-bought-chinese-j-10-jets-to-counter-indias-rafales/?sh=e4543551ef2c

I never understood why they went with the JF-17 when the J-10 was a better jet in first place.

This is Pakistan bribing China. India bribes everyone for protection/politics.

Isos wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:I never understood why they went with the JF-17 when the J-10 was a better jet in first place.

This is Pakistan bribing China. India bribes everyone for protection/politics.

Jf-17 is made by Pakistan for their needs. They have more control over the program. With j-10 they would be dependant on China and price would be higher.

It's as much made in Pakistan as my wife was born in Uganda (She is from India).

It was maybe some Pakistan money used to make it.

Anyway, its silly to now have overlapping systems.

miketheterrible wrote:

Isos wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:I never understood why they went with the JF-17 when the J-10 was a better jet in first place.

This is Pakistan bribing China. India bribes everyone for protection/politics.

Jf-17 is made by Pakistan for their needs. They have more control over the program. With j-10 they would be dependant on China and price would be higher.

It's as much made in Pakistan as my wife was born in Uganda (She is from India).

It was maybe some Pakistan money used to make it.

Anyway, its silly to now have overlapping systems.

Tell that to India. Su-30s, Rafales, MiG-29s, MiG-21s, Mirage-2000s, Jaguars....

The JF-17 and J-10 should actually share alot of technology with both being from China and both the same generation of fighters.

Well it still better than relying on an aircraft 100% made outside of your country.

I would say the opposite... making it yourself just makes it several times more expensive and there is no guarantee the factories built to make it will get any more work ever again.

Also when we say making it locally what we mean is assembling it which means support and maintenance still require maker assistance unless that is part of the contract.... so making 300 of your own planes... if you piss off the origin country and they cut you off from spare parts you are still screwed.

At least buying 300 planes from the maker they will be cheaper, you will likely get them rather faster, and probably to a higher standard... and then all you need to do is buy a support contract that allows local support and maintenance and just don't bite the hand that feeds.

Make sure the country you buy your planes does not have a history of imposing sanctions on its customers or enemies or allies for anything...

Local production sounds like a good idea for example if India could convince France to get a licence to produce Mirage 2000s that would have been a great deal for India... but France wanted to sell Rafales... probably to keep the factories producing and lower the domestic price and continue work on improvements and upgrades for everyone.

But most of the time after they finish producing they become white elephants fighting for maintenance contracts and support contracts or other jobs to keep the workforce working.

For countries like India or Pakistan it would make sense to locally produce things needed in enormous numbers... MANPADS... ATGMs... things they will continue to produce until there is a replacement model and then they can produce that... it is electronics and technology and simply having a lot of these things is very useful in actual combat and for defence.

This will light a fire under India though.... China might have green lighted this to upset India because of Indias steps towards the US and Australia and Japan... against China.

walle83 wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:

Isos wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:I never understood why they went with the JF-17 when the J-10 was a better jet in first place.

This is Pakistan bribing China. India bribes everyone for protection/politics.

Jf-17 is made by Pakistan for their needs. They have more control over the program. With j-10 they would be dependant on China and price would be higher.

It's as much made in Pakistan as my wife was born in Uganda (She is from India).

It was maybe some Pakistan money used to make it.

Anyway, its silly to now have overlapping systems.

Tell that to India. Su-30s, Rafales, MiG-29s, MiG-21s, Mirage-2000s, Jaguars....

The JF-17 and J-10 should actually share alot of technology with both being from China and both the same generation of fighters.

I do. And I also state it's reason why the Indian AF still sucks because of overlapping capabilities, mixture of systems with no common parts nor communication and integration, expensive and overall dumb.

Doesn't mean Pakistan should follow same suite with overlapping capabilities of jets because it's a token buy to buy politics. Instead they should look at something else from China if it's a political buy.

Isos wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:

Isos wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:I never understood why they went with the JF-17 when the J-10 was a better jet in first place.

This is Pakistan bribing China. India bribes everyone for protection/politics.

Jf-17 is made by Pakistan for their needs. They have more control over the program. With j-10 they would be dependant on China and price would be higher.

It's as much made in Pakistan as my wife was born in Uganda (She is from India).

It was maybe some Pakistan money used to make it.

Anyway, its silly to now have overlapping systems.

Actually it is made by Pakistan Aeronautical Complex but I'm not sure if it is entirely made in Pakistan.

Well it still better than relying on an aircraft 100% made outside of your country.

The jf-17 program is really nice for a country like Pakistan. They developed it, can integrate anything they want or switch for other suppliers and can easily upgrade them since they have all the source codes. It will also push them create weapons for it which will stimulate their economy.

That is assuming if the jet has anything of worth being made in Pakistan. For most part, guarantee it isn't. Reason why it would suffer same fate as India does with Su-30's where the corruption is so bad at HAL, that parts are stolen and replaced with shoddy parts they causes failure that no other users of same jets see.

Only way is if China has full control over the factory in Pakistan. And judging how China been slowly taking over Pakistans industries and ports, that is possibly the case. So it really isn't Pakistani anyway. If you think India is incompetent with manufacturing and logistics, you think Pakistan would be better? Far from it actually.

You have no experience in Pakistan. I and my family does. Something going back to the 1980's. I can tell you, China makes way more than 40% of the JF-17. If you truly believe what is being said about Pakistan and its manufacturing capabilities (LOL), I got a bridge to sell you. The only thing I would agree with you on is that the acquisition program for these jets is far less corrupt than India's acquisitions. But if you are unsure about how China operates in Pakistan, look no further than Gwadar Port.

Isos wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:You have no experience in Pakistan. I and my family does. Something going back to the 1980's.  I can tell you, China makes way more than 40% of the JF-17.  If you truly believe what is being said about Pakistan and its manufacturing capabilities (LOL), I got a bridge to sell you.  The only thing I would agree with you on is that the acquisition program for these jets is far less corrupt than India's acquisitions.  But if you are unsure about how China operates in Pakistan, look no further than Gwadar Port.

Well that's what I saw on the web. If it is true then it is very good for them.

If you are right then it sucks but still better than indian situation.

It's a lot like AL Khalid tank. A half decent tank but mostly screwdriver assembly. Tanks initial design were documents stolen from Ukrainian engineers.

Regardless, I agree, much better all around compared to Indias acquisition nonsense.

I would say the JF-17 was a 90% Chengdu product. It was delevopt, built and tested in China.

Jf-17 is good for what it is. Frankly though from what I can gather the block 3 variant is pretty dang expensive. Might be better to buy a squadron of j-10 fighters.

China produces only 40% of the jf-17, rest is made in Pakistan. The factory will still exists as long as the plane is flown. They also have projects for UAV there abd have export contract for the jf-17.

With a Russian engine.

The point is that once Pakistan has enough planes what are the factories in Pakistan going to do?

Prototypes means nothing if the factory is not making anything.

The cost of making that factory could have built a different factory that makes something Pakistan needs a lot of...

If you are right then it sucks but still better than indian situation.

Not really a competition...

I would say the JF-17 was a 90% Chengdu product. It was delevopt, built and tested in China.

And if they made 10,000 it would make sense, but to make a factory for less than 200 planes is a bit of a waste.

The Engine is an enormous portion of any aircraft and the engine is Russian.

It is like buying a bread maker.... if you are really in to baking and your family eats and loves its bread and you like to experiment it makes sense to buy a bread maker... there are lots of different things you can use it for too...

But if one day the price of a loaf of bread annoys you and you think you can make it cheaper so you buy a bread maker and realise how much effort actually goes in to making your own bread the breadmaker will go in a cupboard and might only ever be used once.

In fact it might be cleaning the damn thing after you make the bread that might make you go back to store bought bread.... but then having the smell of freshly baked new bread in the morning might be your thing.

My point is that making your own planes makes them more expensive and offers no guarantees... if Russia or China stops providing parts you are just as screwed as if you just bought planes from them directly and that would have been much faster and cheaper than setting up a factory to assemble planes.

I would say doing a deal with China to set up a factory in Pakistan to make a cheap simple car that could become the national car of Pakistan for its low cost and reliability and simplicity would be more use for Pakistan than making a jet fighter.

Isos wrote:China produces only 40% of the jf-17, rest is made in Pakistan. The factory will still exists as long as the plane is flown. They also have projects for UAV there abd have export contract for the jf-17.

The all important engine has to be imported from Russia. Even avionics is imported from China. Pakistan simply builds the fuselage.