Project 885: Yasen class

hoom wrote:The rumor was it would have 10 VLS but the pictures of it at & post-launch clearly show 8 hatches like Severodvinsk.

Well that makes sense, too, since it's smaller than Severodvinsk.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

hoom wrote:

with up to 40 Kalibrs hidden 2000km from US/UK shores on ship can do nice "containing" of aggressive plans against Russia.

Thats kinda like saying F-16s can drop precision laser guided bombs on Moscow.
It could happen but its not likely or an intended scenario.
Like Oscars the Yasens are for defense of SSBN bastions keeping CVBGs out.

Most of US metropolitan areas are coastal ones. Thinking about yet another possibility to receive salvo if CM can also have cooling effect.  But perhaps you right. Poseidon are for coastal bases/cities. Bureverstniks can be too

Sure their primary role is protecting both Russian naval bastions in Barents and Okhotsk sea. But perhaps Oscar and Yasen class boats are best suited to work in anti-CVN "cruiser battle groups", so they get some air protection, too. Wondering what is/will be Russian combat tactics after they get both battlecruisers back. Perhaps they can form two constant formations of Kirov ships with some destroyers and SSGNs. Of course one having also Kuz. This would mean that some Oscars would have to move to Vladivostok, so six new improved Kilo boats could go to Kamchatka instead.

The exit of the nuclear submarine "Kazan" on factory sea trials

verkhoturye51 wrote:
Sure their primary role is protecting both Russian naval bastions in Barents and Okhotsk sea. But perhaps Oscar and Yasen class boats are best suited to work in anti-CVN "cruiser battle groups", so they get some air protection, too. Wondering what is/will be Russian combat tactics after they get both battlecruisers back. Perhaps they can form two constant formations of Kirov ships with some destroyers and SSGNs. Of course one having also Kuz. This would mean that some Oscars would have to move to Vladivostok, so six new improved Kilo boats could go to Kamchatka instead.

IMHO Vladivostok (Fokino to be exact) doesnt seem to be a good nuclear sub base as this is just opposite to Japan. Kamchatka (i.e. Petropavlovsk Kamchatsky) is standard SSGNs base.

True that 885/949 the main task so far has been to fight CSGs. But now there will be sub-fighter drones (I hope Cephalopodes is just a beginning. ) for protection and Poseidon drones to ocunter CSG.

Yasen or Antey is fairly strong deterrence also for countries. Salvo of 72 Kalibrs + 6 from torpedo tubes can decapitate couple of cities. Mind that from Reykiavik to London is ~1900km and from Svalbard to London 3000km.

The rumor was it would have 10 VLS but the pictures of it at & post-launch clearly show 8 hatches like Severodvinsk.

That is like being surprised that the new AK-103 uses 30 round magazines because they were expecting it to have 35 round magazines...

The UKSK is an 8 round system... the U in it means universal... ie everywhere... so when they put a UKSK launch system into a submarine it is not going to suddenly sprout two new tubes and become a ten tube system...

Each hatch is 4 missiles though so 8 hatches = 32 missiles, 10 hatches would have been an increase to 40 missiles.

I think that GarryB wanted to say that the number of UKSK hatches is always multiple of 8. Small ships and Yasens have 8 hatches, Gorshkovs 16, new Kirovs 80...

The only exception seem to be SSKs however. Improved Kilo has 4 UKSK and Lada 10.

How far along are the 3rd and 4th unit?

verkhoturye51 wrote:

The only exception seem to be SSKs however. Improved Kilo has 4 UKSK and Lada 10.

None of above has VLS tho

GarryB wrote:
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The UKSK is an 8 round system... the U in it means universal... ie everywhere... so when they put a UKSK launch system into a submarine it is not going to suddenly sprout two new tubes and become a ten tube system...

UKSK is not on subs AFAIK. BTW Yakhonts or 5 Kalibrs in one tube

Tingsay wrote:How far along are the 3rd and 4th unit?

Do you speak Russian?

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

verkhoturye51 wrote:

The only exception seem to be SSKs however. Improved Kilo has 4 UKSK and Lada 10.

They have no hatches tho

So they launch Kalibrs through torpedo tubes?

verkhoturye51 wrote:
They have no hatches tho

So they launch Kalibrs through torpedo tubes?[/quote]

Yup, Kalibrs-S is lauhcned from 533mm tubes.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:Yup, Kalibrs-S is lauhcned from 533mm tubes.

So they could put some on Boreis, too. It would add some practical value to submarines that otherwise aren't very likely to see combat in their entire duty. Considering that Yasens are made in small nubmers, Kilos can't operate in blue waters and Huskies are probably a decade away, this would enable Russians to keep up with ever growing number of new Virginias.

verkhoturye51 wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:Yup, Kalibrs-S is lauhcned from 533mm tubes.

So they could put some on Boreis, too. It would add some practical value to submarines that otherwise aren't very likely to see combat in their entire duty. Considering that Yasens are made in small nubmers, Kilos can't operate in blue waters and Huskies are probably a decade away, this would enable Russians to keep up with ever growing number of new Virginias.

It wouldn't be a surprise that boreis already have kalibrs. It's the newest sub, it has a modernized variant and russian navy packs kalibr everywhere they can. So we can assume they have them.

Isos wrote:

verkhoturye51 wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:Yup, Kalibrs-S is lauhcned from 533mm tubes.

So they could put some on Boreis, too. It would add some practical value to submarines that otherwise aren't very likely to see combat in their entire duty. Considering that Yasens are made in small nubmers, Kilos can't operate in blue waters and Huskies are probably a decade away, this would enable Russians to keep up with ever growing number of new Virginias.

It wouldn't be a surprise that boreis already have kalibrs. It's the newest sub, it has a modernized variant and russian navy packs kalibr everywhere they can. So we can assume they have them.

Borei probably can launch Kalibrs from TTs, but Borei is a SSBN - РПКСН, so they are strategic deterrent boats and it is logically unlikely they will be equipped with SLCMs. Kilos and Ladas launch kalibr-PL from TTs.

kumbor wrote:

Borei probably can launch Kalibrs from TTs, but Borei is a SSBN - РПКСН, so they are strategic deterrent boats and it is logically unlikely they will be equipped with SLCMs. Kilos and Ladas launch kalibr-PL from TTs.

From their home bases they can target most of nato bases in europe. No matter if it is not their main task if they can safely makes precision strikes you use them.

kumbor wrote:

Isos wrote:

verkhoturye51 wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:Yup, Kalibrs-S is lauhcned from 533mm tubes.

So they could put some on Boreis, too. It would add some practical value to submarines that otherwise aren't very likely to see combat in their entire duty. Considering that Yasens are made in small nubmers, Kilos can't operate in blue waters and Huskies are probably a decade away, this would enable Russians to keep up with ever growing number of new Virginias.

It wouldn't be a surprise that boreis already have kalibrs. It's the newest sub, it has a modernized variant and russian navy packs kalibr everywhere they can. So we can assume they have them.

Borei probably can launch Kalibrs from TTs, but Borei is a SSBN - РПКСН, so they are strategic deterrent boats and it is logically unlikely they will be equipped with SLCMs. Kilos and Ladas launch kalibr-PL from TTs.

It would make sense to convert them to SSBN/SSGN, especially since the conversion would come at no cost. With their silent pump-jet propulsion and longer endurance due to bigger size, they would complement Yasens and be a better way to launch a Kalibr against distant targets.

Isos wrote:

kumbor wrote:

Borei probably can launch Kalibrs from TTs, but Borei is a SSBN - РПКСН, so they are strategic deterrent boats and it is logically unlikely they will be equipped with SLCMs. Kilos and Ladas launch kalibr-PL from TTs.

From their home bases they can target most of nato bases in europe. No matter if it is not their main task if they can safely makes precision strikes you use them.

OK this is a small overestimation. From Gadziyevo you can launch a Kalibr with 2500 km range to northern Germany at most. But they are mobile of course, so this doesn't really matter.

verkhoturye51 wrote:
So they could put some on Boreis, too. It would add some practical value to submarines that otherwise aren't very likely to see combat in their entire duty. Considering that Yasens are made in small nubmers, Kilos can't operate in blue waters and Huskies are probably a decade away, this would enable Russians to keep up with ever growing number of new Virginias.

the main ask of SSBNs are too precious IMHO to use them for conventional CMs usage.  

Kilos have 400nm submerged + can snorkel. BTW This enough come close to Murmansk/Arkhangiels an shoot ;-)
AIP subs have 3 weeks submerged and like 212 has 8000nm range.

Arkhangielsk - Edinborough..........2500km

Arkhangielsk -  London................2750km

Murmansk:  2350/ 2600km respectively

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

verkhoturye51 wrote:
So they could put some on Boreis, too. It would add some practical value to submarines that otherwise aren't very likely to see combat in their entire duty. Considering that Yasens are made in small nubmers, Kilos can't operate in blue waters and Huskies are probably a decade away, this would enable Russians to keep up with ever growing number of new Virginias.

the main ask of SSBNs are too precious IMHO to use them for conventional CMs usage.

Kilos are based in Polyarny near Arkhangelsk, but I believe CMs wouldn't be used against population centres, even in a case of strategic nuclear war. I think their primary role is tactical use, like in Syria. Now imagine Syrian scenario in oil rich South American country.

The argument of high value holds in the case of danger of strike on Russian SSBN. E.g. in Syria I don't see that danger. The Atlantic is big and I'm not sure how reliable would be sending old and noisy Oscars all the way to Latin America. So Russia will have either 2 Yasens at disposal or also extra two Boreis (after Knyaz Vladimir and Kazan join Northern fleet next year).

verkhoturye51 wrote:

Tingsay wrote:How far along are the 3rd and 4th unit?

Do you speak Russian?  

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

verkhoturye51 wrote:

The only exception seem to be SSKs however. Improved Kilo has 4 UKSK and Lada 10.

They have no hatches tho

So they launch Kalibrs through torpedo tubes?

UKSK VLS is only for surface ships not submarines and Yasen have SM-346 launcher

TLs can launch Kalibr/Klub but not all necessary modifications

And can launch Kalibr/Klub : Yasen/885-885M and last 6 Kilo 06.363 after 971M and 949AM others normaly not

verkhoturye51 wrote:
Kilos are based in Polyarny near Arkhangelsk, but I believe CMs wouldn't be used against population centres, even in a case of strategic nuclear war. I think their primary role is tactical use, like in Syria. Now imagine Syrian scenario in oil rich South American country.

Polyarni is near Murmanskr far of Arkhangelsk 161th Subm Bde with 5 Kilos and the Lada[/quote]
[/quote]

Labrador wrote:

So they launch Kalibrs through torpedo tubes?

TLs can launch Kalibr/Klub but not all necessary modifications

Inded they have to integrated only TL i nto enough.  There must be integrated in battle mgmt system + all reloading mechanisms modifications.

Runny thing I've found iss that Kh-101/102 modifications can be also carried by 885M subs. I guess it would make them strategic CM carrier...

UKSK VLS is only for surface ships not submarines and Yasen have SM-346 launcher  

BTW owners of this patent check who they are working for ;-)  http://www.findpatent.ru/img_show/10474315.html


picture from korabel blog.

TLs can launch Kalibr/Klub but not all necessary modifications

Kalibr-PL (in Russian) or Club-S. Ships and airborne platforms have own modifications of course.

And can launch Kalibr/Klub : Yasen/885-885M and last 6 Kilo 06.363 after 971M and 949AM others normaly not

Thus all which need them      

I've found in many sources that  Borey can also use Kalibrs. I guess not at thei rmain armament but since they have to have already advanced battle mgmt system Kalibr integration shouldn't be a problem after all.

No official statemnt tho.

UKSK is not on subs AFAIK. BTW Yakhonts or 5 Kalibrs in one tube

You don't mean Yakhonts, you mean Granits... Yakhonts are the export version of the Onyx that the Brahmos is based upon and they fit in the same UKSK tubes the Kalibrs fit into... so a UKSK launcher has 8 missile tubes and can carry 8 x Kalibrs or 8 Onyx missiles or 8 Brahmos missiles or 8 Yakhonts...

In comparison Granit is an enormous 7 ton missile and when putting long slim weapons like Onyx or Kalibr you can generally fit 3 of these in each Granit tube... hense the upgrade of the Oscar class SSGNs.

When fitting to existing types it is certainly possible that some options are not practical... for example without a decent sonar then carrying rocket propelled anti sub torpedoes in the UKSK launcher doesn't make sense, but most of the upgrades include the addition of the Sigma battle management system... something similar to AEGIS in the sense that it is a target data sharing battle management system for ships and subs and aircraft and satellites.

That means a tiny corvette in the Caspian sea can launch land attack cruise missiles against targets thousands of kms away that its sensors could not detect let alone determine friend from foe... that process is done by another platform... which means that being able to carry weapons the platform has no way of finding targets for still makes sense because it wont be operating on its own.

Fitted with Redut a frigate could carry and launch 400km range SAMs against targets it cannot see, but could get target data from another platform in the same way as it uses land attack cruise missiles...

This means it makes sense for universal launchers and standardised launchers for all vessels in the fleet...

There must be integrated in battle mgmt system + all reloading mechanisms modifications.

Do you think they have a different loader for the different missiles of the UKSK launch system?

The only exception seem to be SSKs however. Improved Kilo has 4 UKSK and Lada 10.

If you look at design sketches of the UKSK launcher it has two large tubes, and each large tube has four missile tubes inside it... based on that if they only put one tube then the capacity would be for 4 missiles, but regarding Lada lets wait and see because I rather doubt they would split a tube in half to get two extra missiles...

Keep in mind there are lots of people who make assumptions and pass them as facts... how many times have we heard the new Boreis will have 20 SLBM tubes?

GarryB wrote:This means it makes sense for universal launchers and standardised launchers for all vessels in the fleet...

on subs there are no 8 cell UKSK. There are  8x4 launch tubes each with racks 4/5 S-714 for  onixes/calibr.

There must be integrated in battle mgmt system + all reloading mechanisms modifications.

Do you think they have a different loader for the different missiles of the UKSK launch system?

as far as Ive found in Russian wiki there were components of integrated  system Club-S. Power supply was one of them.[/quote]

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

UKSK VLS is only for surface ships not submarines and Yasen have SM-346 launcher  

BTW owners of this patent check who they are working for ;-)  http://www.findpatent.ru/img_show/10474315.html


picture from korabel blog.

Great graphic !

For a Russian unusual design no double hull and TLs on the side under the sail to accommodate the bow-mounted sonar US style as they do since Permit/Tresher class the first SSN classes have TL on the bow

Logicaly with USSR which allowed China to have a submarine Fleet providing SSKs and training crews all Chinese boats have also double hulls.

I wonder why they don't put some torpedo tubes to launch from behind against someone that follows the sub. They have some nice small torpedos that could take little space fir that task. Paket NK would be the best as it could target torpedos too.