Project 885: Yasen class

Mike E wrote:BUT! Like always.... They quote the ONI's "not as quiet as the Virginia" claim. The West doesn't know how quiet the Yasen is,

Yasen is more noisy when it run with maximum speed. But the maximum speed of Yasen is much faster than Virginia.

If Yasen and Virginia are moving at the same speed, Yasen is much more quieter.

It is said that Yasen has a thick and complex rubber layer which mimics the skin of dolphin. When sound is absorbed, it does not resonance and causes whirls. Honestly, physics and dynamics is not my fields, but it is said that, the rubber layer is the reason why Yasen is quieter and faster although it is bigger and has weaker engine. (anyone can explain it to me ? )

In addition, when standing still, Yasen is also much quieter. The reason is that, in low speed and standing still mode, Yasen only uses small turbine and accumulator battery. Furthermore, Yasen is bigger, and uses weaker engine, therefore less heat is emitted and the heat is less concentrated.

So, saying "not as quiet as Viriginia" is very misleading.

Nobody knows the Yasen's noise.

End.
Of.
Story.

So stop with the comparisons please.

The US Navy has been making those noise predictions before the 885 was even launched, before it even did its trials. In other words, they pulled them out of thin air, or their backsides, whatever you prefer.

As to how quiet the Seawolf and Virginia are, they have been around for a while so presumably there is some data, but it is suspect how accurate and thorough it is, and once again, nobody online who knows would tell you.

higurashihougi wrote:

Mike E wrote:BUT! Like always.... They quote the ONI's "not as quiet as the Virginia" claim. The West doesn't know how quiet the Yasen is,

Yasen is more noisy when it run with maximum speed. But the maximum speed of Yasen is much faster than Virginia.

If Yasen and Virginia are moving at the same speed, Yasen is much more quieter.

It is said that Yasen has a thick and complex rubber layer which mimics the skin of dolphin. When sound is absorbed, it does not resonance and causes whirls. Honestly, physics and dynamics is not my fields, but it is said that, the rubber layer is the reason why Yasen is quieter and faster although it is bigger and has weaker engine. (anyone can explain it to me ?   )

In addition, when standing still, Yasen is also much quieter. The reason is that, in low speed and standing still mode, Yasen only uses small turbine and accumulator battery. Furthermore, Yasen is bigger, and uses weaker engine, therefore less heat is emitted and the heat is less concentrated.

So, saying "not as quiet as Viriginia" is very misleading.

The Virginia can go 35 knots from what I've heard, that would put it right around the Yasen... 

Like TR1 said, nobody knows how quiet these subs are... We can only guess (as we are doing now).

All modern submarines have "that", they are called anechoic tiles... The Yasen's tiles are improved over the ones on the Akula AFAIK, but I cannot confirm that. So that wouldn't be the reason the Yasen is "faster" (not by much" and "quieter (can't be confirmed). - The reason the displacement on the Yasen is so high, is not only because of its size, but also its hull. - It has a "hybrid" hull that is somewhere in between a double-hull and mono-hull. As a result, its displacement is higher, but the outer hull can be shaped more efficiently because it doesn't have to deal with pressure. - This could be wrong, to be honest I'm trying to remember this crap... If that is true, than that is why it is faster. 

The Virginia may have a mode like that, the Ohio does... - Literally I've found nothing that suggests it does, so take it with a grain of salt.

It is, but then again, we do not know...

I think all modern submarines have active noise suppression. Thanks to computers and the ability to model the whole submarine
down to every part and its elastic properties they can simulate the noise emission and propagation. The submarine can act as
a noise amplifier and this can be suppressed. This sort of ability did not exist back in the 1960 and I am quite sure that Americans
got it first thanks to their better computer tech and CAD/CAM.

Using Soviet capabilities from the 1970s to evaluate modern Russian submarines is simply retarded (not aimed at people on this forum,
of course). Russia has access to the necessary level of computing power and high level CAD/CAM software. As mentioned above
Russia appears to have advanced the anechoic tile technology quite fare and is gaining performance due to fluid dynamical effects
that were previously unknown or not exploited. This is more than likely thanks to the capacity to model these features a priori.

Mike E wrote:

All modern submarines have "that", they are called anechoic tiles... The Yasen's tiles are improved over the ones on the Akula AFAIK, but I cannot confirm that. So that wouldn't be the reason the Yasen is "faster" (not by much" and "quieter (can't be confirmed). - The reason the displacement on the Yasen is so high, is not only because of its size, but also its hull. - It has a "hybrid" hull that is somewhere in between a double-hull and mono-hull. As a result, its displacement is higher, but the outer hull can be shaped more efficiently because it doesn't have to deal with pressure. - This could be wrong, to be honest I'm trying to remember this crap... If that is true, than that is why it is faster. 

The Virginia may have a mode like that, the Ohio does... - Literally I've found nothing that suggests it does, so take it with a grain of salt.

In more details, that's right, Yasen has two layers of cover, the outer's role is for hydrodynamic shape and the inner is for withstanding the pressure. The spaces between the covers is not equal, in some places the two layer of cover is stick together. The aim of the design is that to decrease the interior space, make the cover become more round, more cylindrical, better for withstanding the pressure.

Compared to German submarines, Russia used a inferior type of stainless, non-magnetized steel, but they applied a number of techs to get rid of excessive tension. For example the steel was cut inside water to reduce heat, then they partly assembled the parts and carried out the process of annealing to reduced excessive tension, and then they fully assembled all the parts toghether.

Strange that the USSR would not have the metallurgy level to do it the "German way". The USSR was the only country on the
planet that had the ability to produce rocket engines with the oxygen routed through the pump turbine section straight into
the nozzle to optimize efficiency. This required unique stainless steel alloys that could withstand the high temperature oxygen.
Conventional rocket engines would simply burn up. The US did not even consider such technology as possible until they
saw it with their own eyes in the early 1990s.

So there is nothing inferior here. The submarine metal is a design choice based on considerations that Joe Q Public has no
clue about.

In my view, if one asked me who's more silent between Yasen or Virginia.. I'll say both of them may have same level of silencing. How so ? Since 1980's or perhaps mid 1970's Soviet start emphsize more in their boat's silencing start from 671RTM and the research, hmm according to Norman Polmar's cold war submarine book is not affected by fall of Soviet, slow down maybe but by no means stopped.

There also law of diminishing return. Tom Stefanick's "Strategic Anti Submarine Warfare and Naval Strategy" Have a good review on Submarine silencing method and how to quantify them, it stated that US already achieved level of submarine silencing in Ohio class that so low that their own sonar technology can only detect it at around 1000 yards.  Any lower than that there would be no benefit in both financial and military respect. Thus it's unlikely that current latest US submarine would be more quiet than Ohio.

BTW this is a nice graph from Tom Stefanick's book about US Vs Soviet silencing.






Anyway in 35 Knot.. forget about silencing as propellers and perhaps the submarine's own hull will cavitate, happily add lots of decibels to the submarine's acoustic signature. That applies to both Virginia and Yasen.

Project 885 rescue capsule training

photo of 885 without escape capsule

Interview with Malachite Chief

http://ria.ru/interview/20141215/1037925421.html

Stealthflanker wrote:In my view, if one asked me who's more silent between Yasen or Virginia.. I'll say both of them may have same level of silencing. How so ? Since 1980's or perhaps mid 1970's Soviet start emphsize more in their boat's silencing start from 671RTM and the research, hmm according to Norman Polmar's cold war submarine book is not affected by fall of Soviet, slow down maybe but by no means stopped.

There also law of diminishing return. Tom Stefanick's "Strategic Anti Submarine Warfare and Naval Strategy" Have a good review on Submarine silencing method and how to quantify them, it stated that US already achieved level of submarine silencing in Ohio class that so low that their own sonar technology can only detect it at around 1000 yards.  Any lower than that there would be no benefit in both financial and military respect. Thus it's unlikely that current latest US submarine would be more quiet than Ohio.

Anyway in 35 Knot.. forget about silencing as propellers and perhaps the submarine's own hull will cavitate, happily add lots of decibels to the submarine's acoustic signature. That applies to both Virginia and Yasen.

always wondered if it is possible to make a sort of destructive interference device to cancel out the noise. and sonar is just one channel, there's thermal, tv, radar, magnetic, sea level rise, and gravity - and the soviets and subsequently russians are investing in these means of detection, arguably more so than their western counterparts.

collegeboy16 wrote:
always wondered if it is possible to make a sort of destructive interference device to cancel out the noise. and sonar is just one channel, there's thermal, tv, radar, magnetic, sea level rise, and gravity - and the soviets and subsequently russians are investing in these means of detection, arguably more so than their western counterparts.

That could be possible if the noise's frequency and phase is exactly known. This work and probably already applied for engine room silencing for modern submarines along with usual machinery bed-plate for absorbing noise.

For non-acoustic means of detection such as Detection of submarine's surface wave and kelvin wave as well as thermal and other disturbances (say gravity) Unfortunately there aren't much info around. Nonetheless as far as i know, those disturbances are either too small to be resolvable by sensors or easily countered by the submarine going deeper.

Would love to see more in the subject though. Anyway i really reccommends that Tom Stefanick's book for reading.. Very enlightening.

Stealthflanker wrote:In my view, if one asked me who's more silent between Yasen or Virginia.. I'll say both of them may have same level of silencing. How so ? Since 1980's or perhaps mid 1970's Soviet start emphsize more in their boat's silencing start from 671RTM and the research, hmm according to Norman Polmar's cold war submarine book is not affected by fall of Soviet, slow down maybe but by no means stopped.

There also law of diminishing return. Tom Stefanick's "Strategic Anti Submarine Warfare and Naval Strategy" Have a good review on Submarine silencing method and how to quantify them, it stated that US already achieved level of submarine silencing in Ohio class that so low that their own sonar technology can only detect it at around 1000 yards.  Any lower than that there would be no benefit in both financial and military respect. Thus it's unlikely that current latest US submarine would be more quiet than Ohio.

BTW this is a nice graph from Tom Stefanick's book about US Vs Soviet silencing.






Anyway in 35 Knot.. forget about silencing as propellers and perhaps the submarine's own hull will cavitate, happily add lots of decibels to the submarine's acoustic signature. That applies to both Virginia and Yasen.

Something you need to be aware. is that soviet navy ,just like Russian navy have do not use their best silent mode in peace times.. you don't show your enemies your best card before there is a war. So all that tables and charts..
if ever are accurate.. which i doubt.. it will only show Russian submarine noise in peacetime.. not in war time..

It was one of the Cold War propaganda tropes. Like the one about Soviet ICBMs not being accurate. Anybody with a brain and
a clue could see this as nothing more than trash talk. If you can inject satellites into specific orbits you can damned well hit some
freaking target. As if Soviet gyroscopes did not follow the laws of physics that the American ones did. And atmospheric fluid dynamics
had no impact in Yankee uber tech. What a joke!

Russia's fifth Yasen-class nuclear sub to be laid down on March 19 — source

MOSCOW, February 6. /TASS/. The fifth Yasen-class multipurpose nuclear-powered submarine will be laid down at the Sevmash shipyard in Northwest Russia on March 19. It will be named Arkhangelsk, a Russian defense industry source told TASS on Friday.
"The Yasen-class submarine that will be dubbed Arkhangelsk will be laid down at Sevmash on March 19," the source said.
The head of the Sevmash shipyard in December told TASS that three Project 885M Yasen-class attack submarines and two Borei-class submarines will be laid down in 2015.

Order for lighting conditions and target designation "3C-30" complexes for 5 885M project "Ash-M" nuclear multipurpose submarines.

Northern Machine Building Enterprise posted on the official website of the public procurement information on the award in 2014. contract with Concern "Granit-Electron" for the supply of five complexes "3C-30.0-M." Supplied products are radio-electronic integrated lighting system surveillance and target designation.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1211461.html

Russia begins construction of fifth Yasen class nuclear sub

Yasen-class subs will become the main multipurpose nuclear-powered submarines in the Russian military

ARKHANGELSK, March 19. /TASS/. The fifth nuclear-powered multipurpose attack submarine of the Yasen class will be laid down today at the Sevmash shipbuilding company based in Severodvinsk, the company’s press service told TASS on Thursday.

The submarine, dubbed the Arkhangelsk, was designed by the St. Petersburg-based Malakhit company with the employment of novel technical decisions, the press service said.

The first Yasen-class submarine, the Severodvinsk, was built at Sevmash and handed to the Russian Armed Forces in June 2014.

"Multipurpose nuclear-powered submarines - Kazan, Novosibirsk and Krasonyarsk - are under construction at the Severodvinsk shipyard in the framework of the upgraded Yasen-M project. The changes are connected with the element base of the electronic weapons system, modernized equipment and materials, which will be supplied exclusively by Russian produces," the press service noted.

According to Russia’s naval doctrine, Yasen-class subs will become the main multipurpose nuclear-powered submarines in the Russian military. Sevmash will build eight Yasen-class subs with cruise missiles by 2020.

Severodvinsk going in for repairs next month.

http://www.flotprom.ru/2015/188522/

Honesroc wrote:Severodvinsk going in for repairs next month.

http://www.flotprom.ru/2015/188522/

According to the people from the airbase forums - it's just a regular maintenance service.

Arkhangelsk's plate.

Honesroc wrote:Severodvinsk going in for repairs next month.

http://www.flotprom.ru/2015/188522/

Οnly after 1 year in service?

[quote="ult"]

Honesroc wrote:According to the people from the airbase forums - it's just a regular maintenance service.

Yes, after it passed successfully all max. deep sea tests

2015Submarine "Severodvinsk" was successfully tested

George1 wrote:

Honesroc wrote:Severodvinsk going in for repairs next month.

http://www.flotprom.ru/2015/188522/

Οnly after 1 year in service?

Just some small work apparently.

It is an experimental boat in any case, hardly a serial unit.

Meanwhile we have a lot of satellite images of K-329 seeing her at Severodvinsk and Murmansk.
If you are using the ruler in google earth you can easily verify that the length of the ship is significant longer than the official 119m.
In fact the boat is 136-140m long. It seems that especially the section bow/sail and sail/missile hatches are longer than on drawings.
Any ideas why we don't have an official statement/correction of these data?

Here are some examples

Thus ending all spekculation

Russian Navy until 2020 received seven submarines of the "Ash"

No reductions are planned