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68 posters

    Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

    lancelot
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    Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S - Page 23 Empty Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

    Post  lancelot Wed Nov 29, 2023 7:52 am

    Why make a Uragan replacement with the BAZ vehicle chassis? Pretty simple. The launch vehicles for the Uragan-1M and Tornado-S that are imported from MZKT in Belarus are too expensive. They also add a dependency on an import which might cause issues in the future. What will you do if Belarus becomes unstable in the future? The Grad carries a smaller warhead which means it isn't as effective against armored vehicles. The Grad is also shorter ranged than modern GPS guided artillery rounds, I think this is its main weakness, while a modernized Uragan would have longer range. Then there are the logistics.

    Russia needs to make a heavy MLRS with a vehicle they can build by themselves. If this is the Smerch on a BAZ truck, or a Uragan on a BAZ truck, or some other new heavy Russian vehicle, I don't know. I just think that it is a bad idea to eliminate the intermediate rockets. Like I said, the Grad is outranged by modern long range GPS guided artillery even when modernized, and the Smerch is just too expensive to use in large enough numbers.

    I also think you overstate the difficulty of making the 220mm rockets. They already have the propellant and composite casing technology for the 122mm rockets. It is just a matter of using that in a larger diameter rocket. They will eventually use those materials in the Smerch as well with 300mm. So adding them to an intermediate rocket isn't going to be much of an issue. Then there is the fact they already have 220mm rockets with the modern materials in production. These are used in the TOS-1A/2 which also use 220mm. The only difference is with the Uragan you have longer 220mm rockets with longer range.

    In the short term though I agree that the top priority should be to upgrade the Smerch and Grad systems that they have to their Tornado versions. In the middle term, I think they need to make a vehicle roughly the size of the BAZ truck, with a modular system which can optionally carry various kinds of rockets, and maybe even cruise missiles just like the Brazilian ASTROS system.
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    Vympel


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    Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S - Page 23 Empty Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

    Post  Vympel Wed Nov 29, 2023 11:01 pm

    lancelot wrote:Why make a Uragan replacement with the BAZ vehicle chassis? Pretty simple. The launch vehicles for the Uragan-1M and Tornado-S that are imported from MZKT in Belarus are too expensive. They also add a dependency on an import which might cause issues in the future. What will you do if Belarus becomes unstable in the future? The Grad carries a smaller warhead which means it isn't as effective against armored vehicles. The Grad is also shorter ranged than modern GPS guided artillery rounds, I think this is its main weakness, while a modernized Uragan would have longer range. Then there are the logistics.

    Russia needs to make a heavy MLRS with a vehicle they can build by themselves. If this is the Smerch on a BAZ truck, or a Uragan on a BAZ truck, or some other new heavy Russian vehicle, I don't know. I just think that it is a bad idea to eliminate the intermediate rockets. Like I said, the Grad is outranged by modern long range GPS guided artillery even when modernized, and the Smerch is just too expensive to use in large enough numbers.

    I also think you overstate the difficulty of making the 220mm rockets. They already have the propellant and composite casing technology for the 122mm rockets. It is just a matter of using that in a larger diameter rocket. They will eventually use those materials in the Smerch as well with 300mm. So adding them to an intermediate rocket isn't going to be much of an issue. Then there is the fact they already have 220mm rockets with the modern materials in production. These are used in the TOS-1A/2 which also use 220mm. The only difference is with the Uragan you have longer 220mm rockets with longer range.

    In the short term though I agree that the top priority should be to upgrade the Smerch and Grad systems that they have to their Tornado versions. In the middle term, I think they need to make a vehicle roughly the size of the BAZ truck, with a modular system which can optionally carry various kinds of rockets, and maybe even cruise missiles just like the Brazilian ASTROS system.

    The use of the MZKT truck for systems in the armed forces is so prolific at this point I don't think making a BAZ vehicle chassis for the Uragan launcher is about dependency on an import. The Russians have probably determined that they'll always intervene immediately if any sort of Maidan happens in Belarus.

    AFAIK Tornado-S is a modernised Smerch, and the old MAZ chassis remains.

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    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Thu Nov 30, 2023 1:31 am

    Belarus is a safe supply chain node for Russia's MIC. Fucking place is locked up tight by Wagner Russian SF and Poland and the Baltics are on notice that if they try anything funny Luka's kneejerk response will ram an Iskander tac nuke up their ass faster than they can say Article 5.

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    Vympel


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    Post  Vympel Thu Nov 30, 2023 2:30 am

    lyle6 wrote:Belarus is a safe supply chain node for Russia's MIC. Fucking place is locked up tight by Wagner Russian SF and Poland and the Baltics are on notice that if they try anything funny Luka's kneejerk response will ram an Iskander tac nuke up their ass faster than they can say Article 5.

    The risk is mainly in the succession after Luka goes, but yes
    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Thu Nov 30, 2023 3:37 am

    Vympel wrote:
    lyle6 wrote:Belarus is a safe supply chain node for Russia's MIC. Fucking place is locked up tight by Wagner Russian SF and Poland and the Baltics are on notice that if they try anything funny Luka's kneejerk response will ram an Iskander tac nuke up their ass faster than they can say Article 5.

    The risk is mainly in the succession after Luka goes, but yes

    Yeah, dont know the opposition.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Nov 30, 2023 9:13 am

    After seeing what happens to Ukraine (the level of abandonment by the west and the level of rebuilding by Russia) I would think that most of the population of Belarus will realise being a separate country is not all it is cracked up to be and that perhaps joining the Russian Federation as a region would be their best option moving forward.

    But I can't really speak for them obviously, but the way the west has used countries as a battering ram and cannon fodder to damage Russia is honestly disgusting, American values of truth and justice don't even come in to it... they were thrown under the bus... in fact they were fattened up and dipped in a nice hot spicy dipping sauce and then thrown into the bear cage at the zoo after leaving the bears without food for long enough to make them very hungry and very angry but not long enough to weaken them in any way.

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    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Thu Nov 30, 2023 9:43 am

    Well possibly the high vehicles price is just a way for Russia to subsidize Bielorussia.

    When the various Belarusian regions will be fully back inside the russian federation hat can be corrected and Money can be Better organised (including possibly the building of new plants for civilian aircraft maintenance, possibly for su-25 production, etc and also civilian car production.

    Furthermore  at that time the various belorussian firms like MZKT can be better integrated into the Russian production.

    Vympel wrote:The risk is mainly in the succession after Luka goes, but yes

    There will be no succession to Lukashenko. Either Bielorussia is properly integrated into the Russian federation (not as Bielorussia, but as separate oblasts+ Minsk as a federal city (Like Moscow, Sankt Petersburg, Sevastopol (and soon Kiev)) while Luka is given a nice sinecure position or some other prestigious role in the Security Council of the Russian Federation to keep him happy, or there will be a Bielorussian maidan and Russia will have to repeat the SMO there.

    This must be made clear also to the Bielorussian citizens. A neutral approach (or also Bielorussia as independent ally) is not possible anymore.

    Furthermore Bielorussia has no independent economy and at the moment is a cost for Russia.
    Properly integrating it inside the RF will allow a better management of money and remove the risk of a coup d'etat.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Nov 30, 2023 11:04 am

    Like I said, the Grad is outranged by modern long range GPS guided artillery even when modernized, and the Smerch is just too expensive to use in large enough numbers.

    Smerch is not expensive.

    Uragan is in the middle not offering anything special... Grad is cheaper and easier to produce in large numbers and for the battlefield role of hitting targets like an artillery rocket is supposed to it is rather good. Smerch is heavier and has much longer range than the Uragan could be adapted or upgraded to have and with a bigger payload that it can deliver.

    Uragan rockets could be upgraded but they are not going to be better than upgraded Smerch rockets and the fact that upgraded Grad rockets have comparable reach in terms of range and make up for its smaller payload by having 40 rockets per launcher means the Uragan is the expendable one.

    I also think you overstate the difficulty of making the 220mm rockets.

    They said they will phase out Uragan rockets, they didn't say they would stop making TOS and TOS-2 rockets which are also 220mm calibre.

    They already have the propellant and composite casing technology for the 122mm rockets. It is just a matter of using that in a larger diameter rocket. They will eventually use those materials in the Smerch as well with 300mm. So adding them to an intermediate rocket isn't going to be much of an issue.

    I don't think anyone thinks they can't do it, it is more a case of choosing not to.

    They also decided to phase out the 122mm calibre guns in the form of the D-30 towed gun and the 2S1 self propelled artillery vehicle... the payoff was that it was rather similar to the 100mm and 120mm and 125mm weapons already in use so eliminating an entire calibre made sense... the 122mm gun could be replaced by 120mm gun/mortar weapons in towed and self propelled versions (2S34 Hosta) which could fire 120mm mortar bombs of east and west, 120mm shells with propellent charges to 13km compared with 15km for the 122mm gun, and the 120mm gun/mortar could also fire the 122mm guided missiles called Kitilov, so for a small reduction in range they could eliminate an entire calibre from their inventory. The 120mm shells were similar in power to the 122mm... 2mm is not much of a difference. And there were light mobile towed 120mm gun mortar mounts that could easily replace the D-30.... but after experience they seem to have decided to keep them.

    They might decide down the track to keep using the Uragan missile perhaps... the 15 tube pallet means the two pallet vehicle could carry 30 rockets ready to fire which is rather more potent that Uragan ever was with 16 ready to fire tubes.

    Unless they decide that that truck with two pallets for 220mm rockets could replace TOS which also carried 30 rockets didn't it?

    The new TOS is truck based and unifying the TOS and Rocket artillery trucks together into two vehicles... one carrying one pallet and one carrying two pallets of 6 x Smerch rockets, or 15 x TOS rockets, or how many 122mm rockets?

    But then small light vehicles with 80mm air launched artillery rocket pods seem to be of interest too...

    In the middle term, I think they need to make a vehicle roughly the size of the BAZ truck, with a modular system which can optionally carry various kinds of rockets, and maybe even cruise missiles just like the Brazilian ASTROS system.

    I think for targets deep in enemy territory that ramjet and scramjet powered missiles that can manouver and hit point targets will be rather more cost effective than volleys of unguided rockets... having 40 launch tubes makes no sense if you are firing one rocket at each point target and then driving away to avoid counter battery fire.

    Having a launcher with 6 missiles makes more sense and you could launch all 6 missiles at individual targets if you have the target data at the time of launch... this will also help complicate the task of the enemy air defence.

    Furthermore  at that time the various belorussian firms like MZKT can be better integrated into the Russian production.

    Russia would benefit from more production capacity... and more workers too....

    And would not be throwing away the lives of their new citizens on adventures to steal money like the west does all the time.

    The INF treaty is gone so now Russia can work on intermediate range missiles, whether low flying subsonic cruise missiles like the new Kh-50 cheap subsonic land attack cruise missile designed to be carried by light tactical fighters and potentially ground launched too with a range of 1,000 to 1,500km or so with accurate terminal guidance, or perhaps a ramjet or scramjet powered semi ballistic missile perhaps with different versions with ranges of 250 or 500 or 750 or 1,000 or 1,500 or 2,000 or 2,500km range with different payload weight options and ramjet or scramjet propulsion to evade enemy air defences to ensure it makes it to the target... mass production would be cheap and fuel would be cheap because it would not need to carry lots of oxidiser because it is a jet engine.

    You might say... cruise missile are expensive... no they are not... ramjet and scramjet engines have no shafts and no blades and few moving parts and are essentially an air breathing rocket jet engine. The terminal guidance would be needed for a ballistic rocket if you actually want to hit targets but a jet powered manouvering missile would be more likely to actually reach the target. Guidance and propulsion will probably be cheaper.

    They could make air launched versions too if required and produce them in enormous numbers.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Dec 22, 2023 8:04 am



    Russian chassis entering use.

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    franco
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    Post  franco Sun Dec 24, 2023 1:08 pm

    NOTE: my motto in tracking the Russian and FSU military since 1978 is "be prepared tomorrow to believe something different then today" SO here is this news item...

    On December 20, deliveries of the high-precision 9K512 Uragan-1M MLRS began, which should gradually replace the earlier 9K57 Uragan systems. This was reported by the Russian Weapons Telegram channel .

    This system is equipped with two transport and launch modules. At the same time, provision is made for the simultaneous equipping of transport and launch modules with both 220-mm rockets and 300-mm projectiles (in such a combined bicaliber configuration, the ammunition load of one 9A53 combat vehicle will reach 21 units).

    In addition to the bicaliber configuration, specialists from the Tula NPO Splav equipped the Uragan-1M with a modular-type batch reload option, which can take about 3.5 - 4 minutes. The presence of an advanced digital automatic control system ensures the deployment of the system into a combat position and guidance in just 20 seconds. And it takes just 40 seconds to roll up and leave the firing position. These features increase combat stability several times in counter-battery duels.

    Thus, “Uragan-1M” is a promising hybrid modification of the MLRS “Uragan”, “Smerch” and “Tornado-S”, the crew of which can effectively use rockets of 2 calibers depending on the distance and priority of the target object. For counter-battery counteraction to a platoon of MLRS "Grad" or RM-70 of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, 220-mm 9M27K projectiles with cluster warheads can be used, while against HIMARS, guided RS 9M544 with self-aiming combat elements "Motiv-3M" can be used.

    https://sdelanounas-ru.translate.goog/blogs/156378/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en#cut

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    Hole
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    Post  Hole Sun Dec 24, 2023 4:13 pm

    Motiv-3M scratch
    The SPBE-K is newer. Or is it only for bombs?
    franco
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    Post  franco Sun Dec 24, 2023 6:15 pm

    Hole wrote:Motiv-3M scratch
    The SPBE-K is newer. Or is it only for bombs?

    Only the Shadow knows for sure Cool


    and I think that bastard is just messing with us Twisted Evil

    angry

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Dec 25, 2023 8:53 am

    Well the earlier announcement was that the 220mm rockets and rocket launchers would be produced but that the use of the Uragan 220mm rocket would be scaled back gradually.

    This news does not actually contradict that in the sense that it says what we were speculating all along that the new two pallet truck would replace the Smerch and Uragan chassis and that its ability to take 12 300mm Smerch rockets in two pallets of 6 rockets, or 30 220mm Uragan rockets in two pallets of 15 rockets, or a mix of 6 x 300mm rockets and 15 x 220mm rockets in one load was an accurate guess.

    So they are saying that the original Uragan separate truck will be replaced by this two pallet truck.

    So it says the new truck can carry 300mm and 220mm pallets but it does not mention 122mm pallets.

    Does this mean the lighter single pallet vehicle can carry any single pallet of the three, so it can have 122mm or 220mm or 300mm rocket pallets?

    Or is it just the 122mm vehicle?

    Also it mentions in the new article that the new vehicle can carry up to 21 units.

    Specifically
    (in such a combined bicaliber configuration, the ammunition load of one 9A53 combat vehicle will reach 21 units).

    So when carrying two calibres it carries 21 rockets... 15 plus 6.

    That suggests it can't carry 122mm or does it mean it wont?

    I have said before that the rapid reload is a nice paper feature but for survival after it broadcasts to the world where it is by launching a volley of rockets it needs to move away immediately so no matter how fast it can reload it should be moving.

    When it gets to its new launch position it has not revealed its location so has all the time in the world to load and fire again... and move of course.

    This has the added advantage that when moving they are not loaded so if hit by drone only reload vehicles will burn.

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    franco
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    Post  franco Tue Dec 26, 2023 10:54 pm

    NOTE: Another new multicalibar MLRS combining the mine laying 140mm "Agriculture" system with the 220mm mine clearing "TOS" system.

    Russia has begun developing the latest bicaliber multiple launch rocket system (MLRS) “Vozrozhdenie”, its serial production should begin in the first half of 2024. This was announced on December 26 by the General Director of the Rostec state corporation Sergei Chemezov.

    He noted that the new MLRS is being created on the basis of the “Agriculture” remote mining system, which has proven itself well in the special military operation (SVO) zone. The designers proposed increasing the potential of the combat vehicle.

    “It can be used simultaneously both as a remote mining vehicle and as an MLRS if it is equipped with a unified transport and launch container. As a result, they created a container that also allows launching rockets, for example, from the Uragan, or TOS-1, TOS-1A and TOS-2. The work received the self-explanatory title “Renaissance,” RIA Novosti quotes Chemezov.

    According to him, the tests carried out confirmed that the development is relevant.

    “In fact, in a few months we received the first serial bicaliber vehicle, which can both mine terrain with 140 mm caliber rockets and hit targets with 220 mm caliber rockets,” he explained.

    Before this, in mid-October, the Rostec corporation ahead of schedule sent a batch of complexes of the remote mining engineering system “Agriculture” to the Russian troops. It was noted then that the latest system, using programmable ammunition, can cover an area of ​​several football fields with mines in a matter of minutes.

    https://iz-ru.translate.goog/1626831/2023-12-26/glava-rostekha-soobshchil-o-sozdanii-v-rf-bikalibernoi-rszo-vozrozhdenie?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Dec 27, 2023 6:37 am

    Wow... that is huge, because previously we only speculated that a 220mm launcher could launch TOS or Uragan rockets, but specifically stating that a vehicle could carry either rocket type, but also that it can also be used to carry 140mm rockets for delivering minefields as well.

    This is excellent news... the original TOS has a short range and was T-72 based to operate near front lines, but the improved TOS-2 has a longer flight range and is truck based and is designed to be operated further back from the front line where the better mobility of a truck was a benefit...

    So if it is hanging back 10-12km from the front line it makes sense for it to carry TOS-2 and 140mm mine rockets but also Uragan rockets as well for taking opportunities like attacking enemy armour in their rear perhaps forming up for a push, while also being able to hit fortifications on the front line with TOS and clearing minefields for an attack with TOS or creating minefields behind enemy lines if your attack succeeds and they try to withdraw.

    I would suggest having a container for 122mm rockets would also be worth while because although the 122mm rocket only carries two sensor fused top attack anti armour munitions per rocket compared with 5 per 300mm rocket, a pallet of 45 122mm rockets would mean 90 top attack munitions per vehicle per volley, compared with 60 with 12 300mm rocket tubes. The shorter range would be fine of the enemy targets are moving up to support their forces on the front line, so 36km range is good enough to reach 26km behind enemy lines while you are 10km behind your own lines.

    This is excellent.

    Amusing they combine minelaying 140mm with mine clearing 220mm and just general artillery 220mm rockets on one platform now, and being a truck it will be cheaper to buy and cheaper to operate than any track layer.
    thegopnik
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    Post  thegopnik Wed Feb 14, 2024 6:25 am

    guess I should start looking at topwar.ru alot more. https://topwar.ru/236120-v-rossii-zapatentovali-gibridnyj-boepripas-sochetajuschij-v-sebe-svojstva-samoleta-i-rakety.html

    Russia has patented a hybrid rocket-guided munition that combines the properties of an aircraft and a missile. The relevant document is posted on the website of the Federal Institute of Industrial Property, which is part of Rospatent.

    According to the description provided by the developer, this hybrid ammunition is a tailless hull, swept wings with elevons, one vertical keel with rudders. It also includes a battery and a control system with a target guidance module. As follows from the document, the ammunition is launched using the simultaneous start of the engines of MLRS shells and is guided to the target by a homing module with possible adjustment from an external source, for example, a reconnaissance UAV.

    The hybrid rocket guided munition combines the properties of an aircraft and a missile (...) In the lower part of the hull, reinforcement is fixed for attaching at least two shells of 122 mm caliber for MLRS (...) It is possible to fly the ammunition at a low altitude, repeating the folds of the terrain, with altitude and direction control for delivering pinpoint missile and bomb strikes on enemy targets

    - says the description.


    The author or authors of this invention claim that there are no analogues among the existing ammunition, since there are no known devices of hybrid rocket guided munitions that combine the properties of an aircraft and a missile, use 122 mm caliber projectiles for MLRS in the design and are capable of flying at low altitude. There are no other details of the development.


    Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S - Page 23 Screen73

    https://lenta.ru/news/2024/02/12/v-rossii-zapatentovali-grub-dlya-reaktivnyh-sistem/?ysclid=lsld4hdmnt403702421 google translate calls this system GRUB.

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