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Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

Mindstorm

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Post n°51

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

Mindstorm Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:50 am

I rather suspect 100km range and Cruise missiles will be for the larger calibre models... particularly the 300mm.

GarryB 100 km range match exactly with the claim on an increase of two times and half of the range in respect to the old Grad system (about 40 km).

http://izvestia.ru/news/523564

Он отметил, что кроме существующих реактивных снарядов «Торнадо» сможет стрелять и новыми, с увеличенной в 2,5 раза дальностью, с новой начинкой боевой части,

a "Smerch" with a similar increase would achieve and engagement range between 175 and 225 km !!! (practically similar MLRS divisions would achieve ranges of theatre ballistic missiles Smile

)

About the perspective plan to integrate modules with cruise missiles (in observance to the new Russian Army doctrine stressing on total elements modularity), it was pointed out that the plan included even ballistic missiles !!

В перспективе модульная система РСЗО «Торнадо» сможет запускать крылатые и баллистические ракеты.

With "Tornado" system continue to think in terms of MLRS's caliber for the integration of a particular weapon system will lose quickly any sense ; in fact the platform carrying in a particular moment a weapon module will eventually allow the shift ,directly in the field, toward a very different MLRS/cruise missile/ballistic missile module to carry completely different task.

GarryB

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Post n°52

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

GarryB Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:42 am

I am begining to think that the Hermes missile may be associated with one of the Tornado (G-U-S) systems.

Good thinking, but the comment from Mindstorm below about a 2.5 times increase in range applied to the 122mm rocket with a 40km range also matches the 100km range claim.

With a 30kg warhead and a terminally guided payload that raises the question of how the ground based Hermes system would fit in.

If there is a new small cruise missile to fill the role of Tochka-U then it will likely be used against large heavy targets with its ~500kg warhead. A Hermes battery would fit below that with terminal guidance so the precision of a guided weapon but a small warhead in comparison for point hard targets like tanks or HQ vehicles.

Interestingly Hermes is about the size of a 122mm rocket as it is 130mm missile body diameter though the rocket booster is 210mm as is the launch tube. That suggests that a new grad rocket could be a two stage missile, perhaps with a reduced calibre missile (to reduce drag) and 122mm calibre booster to maximise thrust and speed. The payload of about 20kgs could be increased to about 30kgs and the guidance and manouvering hardware inside could be replaced by a low energy long burn rocket that overcomes drag and helps the rocket maintain speed to maximise range.

a "Smerch" with a similar increase would achieve and engagement range between 175 and 225 km !!! (practically similar MLRS divisions would achieve ranges of theatre ballistic missiles Smile )

Quite true, but I suspect a heavier warhead would be more use than a large increase in flight range which I think you will agree with. The primary purpose of these systems is heavy artillery fire support for a unit or Brigade. An enemy force forming up to make a large scale attack on that unit is the ideal target for a rocket battery. Of course in combat you can be very creative too... an enemy ambush at dusk so they can hit hard and retreat under cover of darkness. If you can channel the enemy as they retreat back up into the hills you can carpet their retreat options with landmines and then as they are trying to pass through these places HE submunitions to pin them till the follow up forces can catch up and rip them a new one.

About the perspective plan to integrate modules with cruise missiles (in observance to the new Russian Army doctrine stressing on total elements modularity), it was pointed out that the plan included even ballistic missiles !!

That suggests that the Iskander ballistic system and cruise missile system are going to be fully integrated into the rocket artillery "family".

Initially there will be Tornado-G/-U/-S based on the Grad, Uragan, and Smerch, and they will be existing vehicles with 122mm, 220mm, and 300mm vehicles.

They will be upgraded, but new production will be stopped except for export and the new vehicles produced will be Tornado Light, and Tornado-Medium and now of course Iskander ballistic and Iskander Cruise.

The Tornado Light and Medium will carry one or two Pallets respectively of 122mm, 220mm, and/or 300mm depending on their mission.

The medium will have the same vehicle chassis as Iskander, but will not be fully interchangable.

in fact the platform carrying in a particular moment a weapon module will eventually allow the shift ,directly in the field, toward a very different MLRS/cruise missile/ballistic missile module to carry completely different task.

Will they go as far as to modularise the Iskander ballistic missile and cruise missile into a pallet container?

If they did that means the Tornado-Light could carry one Iskander or one cruise missile, while Tornado-Medium could carry two of each.

I rather doubt that the light vehicle could carry that sort of weight however.

Will be interesting to see how it all develops.

TheArmenian

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Post n°53

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

TheArmenian Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:49 pm

First video of Tornado-G in live fire exercises:

GarryB

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Post n°54

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

GarryB Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:03 am

Nice video...

Notice almost total lack of rocket smoke?

A bit of dust thrown up and the grass was set on fire, and a short trail of smoke when looking from behind that disappeared fairly rapidly.

Interesting compared to the enormous smoke screens generated previously.

TheArmenian

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Post n°55

Rocket Artilliery Ammunition

TheArmenian Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:20 am

By the way the range of Tornado-S (Smerch replacement) is said to be 200 km.

Mindstorm

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Post n°56

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

Mindstorm Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:52 pm

By the way the range of Tornado-S (Smerch replacement) is said to be 200 km.

Ehm....not.

It actually said that ,already today ,them managed to give to ammunitions of Smerch system a range of 200 km.

It is a statement released only to render the idea of the level of improvement in range that is possible to achieve (with the application of those domestic up to date technological solutions even to existing systems) with MLRS in this caliber.

TheArmenian

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Post n°57

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

TheArmenian Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:39 pm

Mindstorm wrote:

By the way the range of Tornado-S (Smerch replacement) is said to be 200 km.

Ehm....not.

It actually said that ,already today ,them managed to give to ammunitions of Smerch system a range of 200 km.

It is a statement released only to render the idea of the level of improvement in range that is possible to achieve (with the application of those domestic up to date technological solutions even to existing systems) with MLRS in this caliber.

Thanks for the correction.
I hope the extra range is achieved without reducing the size of the warhead.

Mindstorm

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Post n°58

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

Mindstorm Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:46 pm

Thanks for the correction.

It is simply a clarification and also one i root for particularly Wink

I have several times stressed out that almost the totality of parametrical figures circulating on public accessible media about Russian weaponry (even on producer's sites or brochures... Wink

) are always refered to export versions of those systems or very outdated versions of the same systems , for which the revelation of the specifics don't represent anymore a damage or effective reduction of theirs potential, and tactical surprise's edge, in an eventual operational employment against a major enemy.

In the past years i was literally amused to read, in silence, the comical theories and auto-referential "analysis" (often by part of subjects even selling themselves as experts Laughing

) proposing systems comparisons or tactical scenarios where the crushing advantages in : speed, manoeuvrability, target designation, independent adaptive/cooperative attack profile and inbuilt ECCM measures of Russian cruise missiles like “Kaliber” or “Oniks” was.....supposedly....“counterbalanced” by the huge range difference boasted by Western cruise missiles like TLAM-C/D 1200/1600 km against the only...300 km....of Kaliber and Oniks Razz

The same phenomenon happened with the supposed range of BM-30 and its competitors : BM-30 was since its introduction ,by a very wide margin, the most advanced and devastating MLRS worldwide in its category.
In the latest years ,however, in several western publications or by part of mercenary journalists - profusely paid to "bash" and tarnish anywhere possible (even plainly subverting cold parameters !) the reputation of Russian weapons to break its link with historical friend Nations ,such as India - the....supposed....range of "Smerch" has been attacked from any direction (at example claiming that the latest version of its Chinese copied version -the PHL03- had much greater engagement range (140 km) than the up to date original in Russian ; naturally Reality is very far from those highly biased and vested positions.

TR1

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Post n°59

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

TR1 Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:45 am

Unfortunately as in many cases, I have to ask the question: do any of the Smerch units actually have the extended range munitions?

Mindstorm

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Post n°60

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

Mindstorm Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:08 pm

Unfortunately as in many cases, I have to ask the question: do any of the Smerch units actually have the extended range munitions?

Try to ask to yourself the complementary question to this one (you will receive a response much more close to reality...):

"How much units of 9A52 ,if any, remain today -2012- at still employ the original ammunition developed more than 20 years ago ?"

Even more you could ask to yourself this other simple question:

"The range figures i have found in all those years on FSUE "Splav" charts or in its same site (for not say Rosoboronexport's brochures... Wink

) ,and obviously reported in any public accesible media, has been ever representative of domestic version of those MLRS's rocket/missiles ?"

If you want to aid yourself in finding a response you could try that : select any weapon of which ,at today, you are aware of any parametrical difference between the domestic and the export version and check what figure,between the two, is always reported on the maker's "official" site or charts..... Wink

TR1

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Post n°61

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

TR1 Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:56 am

Of course - but the fact remains- Russian industry has had no problem making innovative and excellent weapons and munitions, that have barely seen actually unit delivery- or have been delivered in anemic numbers. See tank ammunition, precision munitions in AF units, precision artillery rounds, AAMs etc etc.

I can't help but to remain unconvinced 200km munitions are in any widespread service.

I would love to be proved wrong!

Mindstorm

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Post n°62

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

Mindstorm Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:37 am

Of course - but the fact remains- Russian industry has had no problem making innovative and excellent weapons and munitions, that have barely seen actually unit delivery- or have been delivered in anemic numbers. See tank ammunition, precision munitions in AF units, precision artillery rounds, AAMs etc etc.

I can't help but to remain unconvinced 200km munitions are in any widespread service.

Exist only two main factors contributing to the....at least apparent....scarce ,widespread presence of up-to-date ammunitions among Russian Army and Air Force units in PEACETIME stance :

1) A truly IMMNESE amount of ammunitions (literally of any type and for any branch of the Armed Forces) inherited from URSS, majority of which with a significative residual operative live and the number and characteristics of which represent still today even an huge overkill against virtually all likely conventional enemy.

2) The strongly rooted habit (also that inherited from cardinal principles of Soviet Military Doctrine) at information's corruption and denial , through or the controled "leaks" to opposing sides of staged technical documentation or downgraded specimens (in URSS times the so called monkey models) or the direct subtraction ,until possible, from enemy Intel's echelons even of the same physical specimens of the most critical systems (and therefore theirs CONOPS and strong/weak points).

On the 2008 conflict, for example, has been wrote tons of articles and books but ,up to this time, complementary interests from both parts - Western analysts and Institutions , frustrated by the clamorous Intel's debacle interested ,at least ,in capitalize the instance for attack and attempt to tarnish, as usual, Russian Military's name Razz

,while on the Russian side not only negate to NATO's observers ANY type of information on ANY type of up-to date weaponry or strategic and tactical concept of operations but also promote toward internal public opinion the roundness of the ongoing ,military reform and future substantial increase of military spending Wink

- has prevented an honest ,realistic analysis to be conducted .

This conflict ,that we must never forget, was won in only 5 days and at very TRIVIAL costs (you can only image the length and the stellar costs involved if the same conflict would have been conducted by NATO ; only the Air Campaign would have encompassed more than a month and half of operations Laughing

) ; was a clear example of operation attentively prepared and executed mantaining as central requirement systematic information denial toward NATO's observers and ELINT units preset in the theatre, employing not only almost exclusively the most outdated weaponry available to the divisons in the area but limiting or even avoiding completely any "sensible" EM emission (among the crew of the US Navy "aid ship" purposely prepared and sent to the Black Sea ,likely would be manifested ,in those days, a very high amount of cases of mental disorders and manic depressive syndromes Razz

)

In the meantime T-72B..... T-62 and even ....some T-55...was engaging Georgian ground forces, Russian Navy was destroying Georgian unities only with....P-120 Malakhit...and Russian aircraft avoided like hell the use even only of the most outdated versions of Kh-59 miissiles or KAB-L precision bomb series of which exist a stock pile more than sufficient to desroy several times all main military targets in both Europe and USA Smile

George1

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Post n°63

Russia Developing 200-km Range Rocket System

George1 Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:28 pm

Russia Developing 200-km Range Rocket System

MOSCOW, November 19 (RIA Novosti) - Russia is developing new long-range multiple-launch rocket systems (MLRS) with improved guidance that could allow them to strike targets up to 120 miles (200 km) away, the Defense Ministry's artillery spokesman said on Monday.

"We have the military-technical potential to create a new generation of MLRS with a range of 200 km," Lt. Col. Nikolai Donyushkin said.

Russia's artillery currently deploys the 122-mm Grad, 220-mm Uragan, and 300-mm Smerch rocket systems and the improved Tornado-S, Tornado-G, and Uragan 1-M are currently undergoing state acceptance trials. The army is in the process of receiving up to 30 Tornado-G systems this year, replacing the BM-21 Grad.

The improved Tornado-S is being upgraded with the special GLONASS satellite navigation system used in the Smerch missile system, Donyushkin said. The Tornado-S will have guided rocket rounds enabling it to fire out to 72 miles (120 km).

"The Tornado-S will have a longer range and increased effectiveness thanks to greater accuracy and the use of new warhead payloads and a reduced launch readiness time of just three minutes," he said.

The army is gradually moving toward a new level of capability for deploying precision use of long-range rocket artillery, he said.

"Massed use of high-precision weapons makes it possible to be certain of destroying high-value targets before they can be used on the battlefield by main-force groups. Fewer rounds need to be fired, simplifying logistics," he added.

http://en.rian.ru/military_news/20121119/177581650.html

Mindstorm

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Post n°64

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

Mindstorm Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:40 pm

Russia is developing new long-range multiple-launch rocket systems (MLRS) with improved guidance that could allow them to strike targets up to 120 miles (200 km) away, the Defense Ministry's artillery spokesman said on Monday.

"We have the military-technical potential to create a new generation of MLRS with a range of 200 km,"

Simply not correct .

the original statement is the following:

"Имеющийся научно-технический задел позволяет решить задачу создания нового поколения РСЗО с дальностью стрельбы более 200 километров", — сказал Донюшкин.

http://ria.ru/forces/20121119/911230300.html

"...engagement range superior to 200 km"

This is not a small detail or a semantic nuance in facts ,already a month ago, the same Nikolai Makarovets (chief designer of the most advanced Russian MLRS) had declared :

"Торнадо-С" – это конечно управляемые снаряды, управляемые системой "ГЛОНАСС", управляемая автономно, он имеет высокую дальность стрельбы. Мы уже сегодня можем обеспечить дальность того же "Смерча" до 200 км", - рассказал журналистам генеральный директор ФГУП "ГНПП "Сплав" Николай Макаровец."

http://ria.ru/arms_mm/20121008/769372259.html

"....already today we can offer a range for actual "Smerch" up to 200 km "

200 km represent therefore the true "threshold" between the maximum engagement range increase achievable with latests technological breakthrough with legacy "Smerch" and the performance of the the new "Tornado-S".

Viktor

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Post n°65

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

Viktor Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:59 pm

Nice

lots of info about the Smerch lite

300mm fighting vehicle 9A52-4 "Smerch" (Lite version)

GarryB

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Post n°66

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

GarryB Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:35 am

Does that say 120km range?

TR1

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Post n°67

Grad, Uragan, Smerch MRLS

TR1 Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:50 am

GarryB wrote:Does that say 120km range?

Indeed.

George1

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Post n°68

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

George1 Sat Jun 28, 2014 6:57 am

any news for further deliveries??

Viktor

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Post n°69

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

Viktor Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:35 am

Nice

Until the end of the year in the Eastern Military District troops will arrive about 20 MLRS "Tornado-G"

kvs

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Post n°70

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

kvs Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:51 am

Tornado-G looks like a Grad replacement with longer range, but much less than the true Tornado system. They have a totally different physical appearance. Seems like a bad naming choice.

Viktor

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Post n°71

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

Viktor Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:05 am

kvs wrote:Tornado-G looks like a Grad replacement with longer range, but much less than the true Tornado system. They have a totally different physical appearance. Seems like a bad naming choice.

Nevermind the name but if you can modernize it in a cheap way and increase accuracy and range and all than go for it.

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Post n°72

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

Mike E Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:30 am

kvs wrote:Tornado-G looks like a Grad replacement with longer range, but much less than the true Tornado system. They have a totally different physical appearance. Seems like a bad naming choice.

It has not only improved missiles, but improved fire control and aiming systems as well. The truck used has also been updated, and it can operate with less crew... IMHO, it is a much bigger upgrade than what it may seem and what you make it out to be. Yeah it isn't a whole new system, but that will come later!

russia

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Post n°73

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

Vympel Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:40 am

Where's the true Tornado system? Uragan-1M wasn't it? There's that handful of photos from a few years ago and otherwise nothing.

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Post n°74

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

GarryB Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:40 am

The true Tornado system shown to date uses the same chassis as the Iskander.

I wonder if they are waiting for the new armoured vehicle families to enter service before they start introducing a new chassis?

Or perhaps they are working on modular upgrades of Smerch and Uragan before they start producing the new vehicles...

I don't know... just guessing... they certainly already have a lot of heavy artillery vehicles...

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Post n°75

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

Mike E Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:57 am

GarryB wrote:The true Tornado system shown to date uses the same chassis as the Iskander.

I wonder if they are waiting for the new armoured vehicle families to enter service before they start introducing a new chassis?

Or perhaps they are working on modular upgrades of Smerch and Uragan before they start producing the new vehicles...

I don't know... just guessing... they certainly already have a lot of heavy artillery vehicles...

That is the Uragan-1M, as mentioned earlier. AFAIK, the well-known "Tornado" is a series of upgrades for multiple MLRS systems, including the -21, -27, and -30.

The 9A53-U will be what is known as the Uragan-1, and is based on the MZKT-79306 chassis (Iskander one).

So, the "true Tornado" is just another member of the "Tornado" MLRS upgrade package.

Tornado 9A53-U (Uragan-1M);
Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S - Page 3 98932547

Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S - Page 3 98932547

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