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    Su-35S: News

    GarryB
    GarryB


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    Su-35S: News - Page 39 Empty Re: Su-35S: News

    Post  GarryB Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:13 pm

    My understanding is that it can detect the presence of stealthy aircraft and can locate them but is not able to track, which means you could use it to detect the presence of an enemy stealth aircraft and locate it with enough accuracy to allow the main and powerful nose mounted AESA radar to do a fine search and get a lock on a stealthy target be it an F-22 or B-2 or F-35 or drone.

    The point is that instead of having to use the nose mounted radar at full power 20kW beam strength scanning its entire volume of frontal air space looking for a needle in a haystack, you can use the wing mounted radar elements to scan rapidly without needing enormous power levels in a frequency most enemy aircraft can't even detect, and if they do it is non directional detection so they know the signal is being beamed but can't tell where it is coming from... imagine an AM radio scanning and scanning but never detecting the signals from FM radio stations because they operate on a different frequency.

    Once the wing mounted arrays detect a solid return where your nose mounted radar did not detect anything very much, or just got a very weak return, then the pilot and the aircraft will know there is something there and that IRST and nose mounted super powerful AESA radar could scan that area in much more detail to detect any weak returns and therefore a stealthy target.

    More importantly a flight of Su-35s and Su-57s and S-70s can all use their radar to listen in that direction too while one of them scans in their nose mounted AESA radar (Ku and Ka band) and also perhaps wing mounted L band frequencies.... the return signals should be enough to determine if there is actually something there and where it actually is in terms of altitude and distance...

    Ground based radar should also be able to provide information and ground based radar listening to these radar pulses might also contribute to finding these stealthy targets and let them mount attacks against them.

    The new PAK DA is a flying wing and will carry AAMs, so there is probably a good chance it will have rather bigger wing leading edge mounted radar... the brand new technology photonic radar will be surface mounted and therefore could be located on the leading edge of the wings and fuselage sides for 360 degree scanning and it operates in Terahertz frequencies which would probably render stealth useless anyway.

    Is it an 8-brick AESA radar? Does it have its own cooling system since I would think that is a very important aspect for it since all the friction on the leading edge flaps and wings would greatly affect it, especially if Egypt has ordered 30 fighters and the heat in Egypt is unimaginable in mid-summer.

    I would think it would be fairly heat resistant, and that the location would mean airflow could be used for cooling most of the time... it is not an IR system so it can operate hot.

    In that case, is it limited to higher altitudes where the air is less denser and cooler creating more optimal uses? Is it limited to certain lower speeds because of cooling? Or is it capable of being used at any time and altitude?

    I would think it does not operate at enormous energy levels and the large size of the elements will further reduce the heat generation... for the nose mounted high frequency radar having small elements that can pump out 20kW signals... that is eye watering stuff... so much that I might be mistaken.... most electric element heaters are 2kW, and normally have three or four bar elements to generate that sort of heat, so ten times more power in a radar element a cm across or less sounds like a lot to me.

    The L band wing mounted radar wont need anything like that level of power... it does not rely on power to detect targets, it relies on the fact that the frequency is so long it does not detect shape so the complex stealthy shaping of a B-2 or F-22 intended to redirect the radio waves away from its source don't work because the waves are not effected by shape so the whole aircraft reflects the signal at normal ranges...

    How affective is the range? I'm hearing numbers like 200km and others at 100 to 150?

    I have never seen actual numbers mentioned, but the inference is that detection range in L band is the same for stealthy and non stealthy targets, so the distance you could detect an F-15 or B-1B is the same as for the F-22 and B-2... the problem is that detecting the target again with another sensor to allow you to then track it might mean it can only be tracked at shorter ranges.

    Having ground based radar that can also detect stealthy targets like the NEBO system would mean the ground based system might detect the stealth aircraft first and send the Su-35s to intercept... they could initially use their wing mounted radar to indicate where the target is and then zero in on it till they can detect it with other sensors too and start to open fire.

    Note NEBO has several very different frequency radar which each scan in different frequencies... imagine it to be like using a microphone and binoculars and a thermal imager and a ground radar. Each has a useful frequency range but each also has limitations and restrictions. Binoculars need clear days and do not work at night, microphone can detect noise which can cue you to look in a direction before the target is even visible, a thermal sight can see through smoke and dust and at night but it is not so easy to identify things, and radar is excellent in terms of range and detecting movement.

    Individually the compliment each other but add a computer processing power and together they can build up a view of the space around you showing different sounds and visible and non visible things as detected by the different sensors. They can be used to direct your binoculars towards something that you can then direct a powerful beam of light towards so you can visually identify a target that would otherwise have flown in a pattern to avoid a scanning beam of light.

    Low light level digital TV is getting to the point where it can see in the dark too without all the problems of Image intensification and short sensor life.

    NEBO combines the signals of long and short wave radar to get extra information and to eliminate the problems of long wave and short wave radar and just provide much better information.

    I would expect Sukhoi are doing the same with their sensors with different radar and EO sensors that can be carried.

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    Gomig-21
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    Post  Gomig-21 Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:08 pm

    GarryB wrote:My understanding is that it can detect the presence of stealthy aircraft and can locate them but is not able to track, which means you could use it to detect the presence of an enemy stealth aircraft and locate it with enough accuracy to allow the main and powerful nose mounted AESA radar to do a fine search and get a lock on a stealthy target be it an F-22 or B-2 or F-35 or drone.

    First of all, thank you very much for such a detailed reply.  Just wondering about the part on the nose mounted AESA radar; the IRBIS-E is AESA?  I realize it is some type of "hybrid" radar but isn't it essentially a PESA radar?  While the hybrid part is switching to a phased array but never knew it was AESA?  What am I missing?

    GarryB wrote:The point is that instead of having to use the nose mounted radar at full power 20kW beam strength scanning its entire volume of frontal air space looking for a needle in a haystack, you can use the wing mounted radar elements to scan rapidly without needing enormous power levels in a frequency most enemy aircraft can't even detect, and if they do it is non directional detection so they know the signal is being beamed but can't tell where it is coming from... imagine an AM radio scanning and scanning but never detecting the signals from FM radio stations because they operate on a different frequency.

    Once the wing mounted arrays detect a solid return where your nose mounted radar did not detect anything very much, or just got a very weak return, then the pilot and the aircraft will know there is something there and that IRST and nose mounted super powerful AESA radar could scan that area in much more detail to detect any weak returns and therefore a stealthy target.

    I get it.  So it's basically used so that the source, being the Su-35 is not detected until it finds a target which then the IRBIS-E can be used if needed.  That's a pretty neat concept, I guess the range would be the only factor that would limit it's usage in that way.  And it might be a good thing that its range is not listed, although most sources I've read are around 120km with one claiming up to 200kms.  Still, that is half the range of the IRBIS-E but still a very respectable distance.  I suppose it's fine for it to be around 120km range as that usually is most A2A missile ranges, or at least their effective range.  

    GarryB wrote:I would think it would be fairly heat resistant, and that the location would mean airflow could be used for cooling most of the time... it is not an IR system so it can operate hot.

    I would think it does not operate at enormous energy levels and the large size of the elements will further reduce the heat generation... for the nose mounted high frequency radar having small elements that can pump out 20kW signals... that is eye watering stuff... so much that I might be mistaken.... most electric element heaters are 2kW, and normally have three or four bar elements to generate that sort of heat, so ten times more power in a radar element a cm across or less sounds like a lot to me.

    The L band wing mounted radar wont need anything like that level of power... it does not rely on power to detect targets, it relies on the fact that the frequency is so long it does not detect shape so the complex stealthy shaping of a B-2 or F-22 intended to redirect the radio waves away from its source don't work because the waves are not effected by shape so the whole aircraft reflects the signal at normal ranges...

    That makes a lot of sense, as far as the cooling aspect is concerned.  

    GarryB wrote:I have never seen actual numbers mentioned, but the inference is that detection range in L band is the same for stealthy and non stealthy targets, so the distance you could detect an F-15 or B-1B is the same as for the F-22 and B-2... the problem is that detecting the target again with another sensor to allow you to then track it might mean it can only be tracked at shorter ranges.

    Yep, that's what I thought and heck, that's perfectly fine.  It sounds like it actually is designed to assist the main radar and give you certain advantages, like not showing your location and then giving you just enough information to then turn on the main radar and decide what to do from that point.
    But, that does bring me back to your original statement about the IRBIS-E being an AESA because if that was the case, why then have the wing-mounted radars?

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    galicije83
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    Post  galicije83 Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:00 pm

    Reduce combat missile effective ranges for 50-60% and ull get around 40-50km ranges for all known missiles...

    In ideal conditions, yes they can hit target at almost max ranges but in real combat this ranges are reduced...

    Also IRBIS is PESA hybrid, not AESA....but still very powerfull radar...Zaslon AM is king of power by one module....

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:34 am

    Just wondering about the part on the nose mounted AESA radar; the IRBIS-E is AESA? I realize it is some type of "hybrid" radar but isn't it essentially a PESA radar? While the hybrid part is switching to a phased array but never knew it was AESA? What am I missing?

    Was thinking about the system mounted in the Su-57, but it does not matter, the purpose of NEBO is the different frequencies of radar antenna rather than their raw power being AESAs.

    I get it. So it's basically used so that the source, being the Su-35 is not detected until it finds a target which then the IRBIS-E can be used if needed.

    It is essentially working smarter and not harder... a normal X band AESA radar would need to scan at very high energy settings because most modern stealth is optimised for that range of frequencies.

    Imagine converting it to light and using a super bright torch to see something painted matt black against a black sky... the extra brightness of the light does not actually help a huge amount... what would really help is going to a different frequency all together and looking using an IR sensor like a thermal imager for which the black stealthy item is not actually black or stealthy anymore and is easy to locate.

    A shark can sense blood in the water, but it also has a sensor that detects something else... ie muscle spasms and panic in a living animal...

    Imagine you are hunting for people in an open field in total darkness... you can stand there at one end slowing sweeping a torch from side to side in an even and predictable pattern searching for people but very quickly anybody hiding in that field will see you and see you are looking so they might go behind a raised bit of ground or behind a bush or a large clump of grass to make your job of seeing them much harder.

    If instead you use thermal imaging goggles to locate hotspots and then flick on active IR torches with magnified optics to get a good look at each hotspot found but was moving each time you flashed minimising your visibility to everyone else then there is a good chance of you finding them before they can get into a launch position against you... remember F-22s and B-2s don't have IRSTs either...

    That's a pretty neat concept, I guess the range would be the only factor that would limit it's usage in that way.

    Actually the core of the problem is that the current missiles used to shoot these targets down are generally Ku and Ka band (ie X band) radar which is what most stealth aircraft are designed to be least visible to.

    Imagine a next gen short range missile they might be developing called X-30 or 9M100 with an imaging IR seeker with a two way datalink with its launch aircraft that can be fired from inside a fighter or a bomber from an internal weapon bay... so it leaves the aircraft with an idea of where its target should be but not actually locked on yet... gets thrown out of the weapon bay, starts up its rocket motor and then accelerates towards where the target should be and starts looking to find it and get a positive lock.

    Now think of a super long range AAM like R-37M or the Izd 800 replacement for it that might have a flight range of 600km and might have dual seekers... active and passive radar to hunt down air targets that are not stealthy or are emitting radar signals (like an F-15 or AWACS aircraft respectively), but also has an IIR seeker.

    The thing about the IIR seeker is that it is passive so it can turn on at any time and start looking and does not give away the fact that there is a missile flying along looking for targets like an Active radar homing missile would scanning with its radar.

    With a two way datalink the missile can detect targets and threats along its flight and send back target information to the launch aircraft... perhaps on L band...

    The point is that an Su-35 with one of these very long range missiles could detect a stealthy target but because it is out of range of Irbis it can't track it yet... but even if it could track it... what was it going to do? Send an X band guided R-37M missile towards a stealth fighter designed to be hard to see for an X band radar?

    By being able to launch an IIR seeker equipped missile of very long range the missile can keep looking where the L band wing mounted radar indicates the stealth aircraft to be and as it flys and gets closer and closer eventually it will see that stealth aircraft and get a lock and then home in on it.

    If the L band radar can detect an F-22 at 400km range that is not much use because an Su-35 can't carry any missiles to hit targets at that range, but then the F-22 probably can't detect that Su-35 at 400km either... and if it could then it would use that info to either escape or sneak around and get a closer in shot from the side.

    The Su-35 could of course climb and accelerate and launch a missile from altitude and high speed to give it better reach but when the R-37M or long range R-77 turns on their radar to look for the target when they get close the target will be warned and can manouver to put its lowest RCS angle towards the incoming missile... the missile might just blow past without seeing the target even though the L band wing radar can see the target just fine.

    I suppose it's fine for it to be around 120km range as that usually is most A2A missile ranges, or at least their effective range.

    Most A2A missile engagements are within visual range or thereabouts, certainly most successful ones are less than 30km range.

    The fact that everyone talks about 120 and 180km range missiles is BS... that is for a head on target that keeps closing the range while the missile is in flight so if you are both heading towards each other at 800km/h at 180km that means with a mach 4 missile moving at about 4,600km/h towards a target closing at 800km/h you can see pretty quickly that that missile wont be covering anything like 180kms.

    The missile will cover the 180km distance in about 140 seconds, but the enemy target will be covering about 800km per hour which is about 220 metres per second so in the 140 seconds the missile takes to travel the 180km the target will have moved about 31kms.

    Can't be bothered working it out precisely but the missile will likely travel about 120 seconds and the target will likely travel 120 seconds and the missile that was launched at the target when it was 180km away will likely hit it when it is about 160km away.

    The real problem is that the missile wont be travelling at the same speed all the way and that at any time the target could change direction or speed and end up out of reach of the outgoing missile so it will miss.

    Many AMRAAM kills were from WVR where it is faster and has more energy and greater chance of a kill.

    That makes a lot of sense, as far as the cooling aspect is concerned.

    Remember that operating at 8-10km altitude the outside air temperature at the equator can be minus 60 degrees C... in Russia where the temperature at the ground can be minus 40 degrees C it can be much colder at higher altitudes too.

    Also being a longer wave radar frequency the elements will be bigger and heavier and more able to dissipate heat buildups and as a sensor a radar antenna should still work fine when it is hot anyway.

    But, that does bring me back to your original statement about the IRBIS-E being an AESA because if that was the case, why then have the wing-mounted radars?

    It does not matter... the nose mounted radar in the Su-57 is an AESA as are the two side nose mounted antenna, the wing mounted L band radar are also AESA but that is not important... even a conventional or PESA radar in the nose would do fine.

    The point is not for them all to be AESAs, that is not important, the wing mounted L band are a single line of AESA elements... they wont fit in the nose because they are too big... you would probably only get a block of 6 or so in the nose area which would not give a useful enough image.

    With a line of antenna array elements think of it as a scanner on a photo copier it sends a light beam and takes an image of the reflection and stores it and scrolls down the page to create an image.

    With the L band radar it is not fixed and can physically move up and down so could be used to scan a 2D display of the airspace in front of it and being active radar it can use the doppler effect to detect targets stationary or closing or moving away from the antenna and to get distance by the time delay.

    In ideal conditions, yes they can hit target at almost max ranges but in real combat this ranges are reduced...

    Unaware targets can be surprised, and of course big targets like transports and bombers and inflight refuelling aircraft and AWACS platforms can't dodge anyway.

    The point is that the longest range missiles climb and fly a ballistic path to maximise fight distance so at the target end they come screaming down from altitude... a direction most radars can't look...

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    Russian_Patriot_
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    Su-35S: News - Page 39 Empty Re: Su-35S: News

    Post  Russian_Patriot_ Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:14 am

    11 Su-35 fighters, apparently built for Egypt at the Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aviation Plant named after Yuri Gagarin
    Su-35S: News - Page 39 L5kxqo10

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    Post  owais.usmani Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:17 pm

    Su-35S: News - Page 39 19992410

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    Post  lancelot Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:10 pm

    What is that huge red thing? I assume it is some sort of land attack missile.
    There also seems to be an R-37M in there partially obscured.
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    Post  ALAMO Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:44 pm

    Ch-59 of some sort.
    R-37 is not obscured, those are titanium-made parts I suppose.
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    Post  Gomig-21 Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:26 pm

    owais.usmani wrote:Su-35S: News - Page 39 19992410

    That's quite the weapons package including the Khibiny pod. Is that the R-74M?

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    Post  Hole Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:04 pm

    R-37M, Kh-59MK, Kh-38, Kh-31, R-77, R-73 (or R-74)

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    Post  Isos Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:29 pm

    Anyone spotted the turkish flag behind ? Soon a contract for su-35 for a NATO country that will send some pro nato "analyst" into more paranoia ?

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    Post  Gomig-21 Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:31 pm

    Hole wrote:R-37M, Kh-59MK, Kh-38, Kh-31, R-77, R-73 (or R-74)

    I realize this was a display for a possible Turkish contract, but I'm just curious if you or any others would happen to know why they wouldn't showcase the R-27ER with this aircraft?  It seems a bit strange to me that they would show the super lethal and deadly hypersonic R-37M AWACs and almost any other fighter jet killer and not show one of the R-27 variants as part of the A2A missiles for this aircraft?
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    Post  GarryB Sat Jun 26, 2021 9:13 am

    Probably just wanting to show the newest and the best... in many ways the R-27 is being made redundant with the new model R-77s with 200km plus range, and of course the R-37M has even better range.

    The main feature of the R-27 was range over existing rather smaller missiles and the fact that it had IR versions too of course.

    This is just a sample selection of the ordinance this aircraft can carry and there would be at least a dozen different R-27 missile types they could show if they wanted to.

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    Post  Russian_Patriot_ Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:15 pm

    Su-35s are flying to Kamchatka. A fundamental decision has been made to deploy the latest Russian multi-purpose super-maneuverable fighters on the peninsula. Their task will be to protect and patrol the north-east of the country, including the Bering Strait and the polar regions. The vehicles will join the MiG-31 interceptors already based in Kamchatka. The Su-35 is the most modern of the mass-produced domestic combat aircraft. It is able not only to conduct air combat, but also to hit land and sea targets with high accuracy. Experts note that the strengthening of the cover of Kamchatka is associated with the arrival of the latest nuclear submarines there, as well as with the protection of the Northern Sea Route (NSR) and the approaches to it.
    Su-35S: News - Page 39 Om_vt110

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    Su-35S: News - Page 39 Empty Why Russia’s Elite Su-35 Fighter Might Be a Weak Performer On Export Markets

    Post  Finty Mon Jul 05, 2021 1:19 am

    N.B sharing doesn't equal endorsement

    https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/why-russia-s-elite-su-35-fighter-could-be-a-weak-performer-on-export-markets

    Why Russia’s Elite Su-35 Fighter Might Be a Weak Performer On Export Markets

    Since its entry into service in 2014 Russia has sought to market its Su-35 heavyweight fighter abroad as a premier ‘4++ generation’ air superiority jet, which with its American rival the 5th generation F-22 Raptor banned from export was widely considered the world’s most capable aircraft of its kind on world export markets. The fighter was derived from the Su-27 Flanker of the Cold War era, but was heavily enhanced with a high composite airframe, a reduced radar cross section, new more powerful AL-41 engines and a new sensor suit built around the Irbis-E radar. The new Flanker boasted a much higher endurance, superior avionics and electronic warfare systems, and an air to air engagement range over three times as long as the original Su-27. Despite its advanced capabilities and relatively modest cost, with the aircraft exported for around $1 billion for each unit of twelve, the Su-35 has secured only two export contracts in over half a decade on offer. These included a deal for the sale of 24 fighters to China signed in 2015, and another deal for the sale of an estimated 26 fighters to Egypt signed in 2018 - meaning only around 50 of the aircraft have been sold.

    The Su-35 was offered to India for license production under the MMRCA tender, which would have seen at least 114 of the aircraft built for the Indian Air Force, although the cancellation of the tender in 2020 means sales of the jets to the South Asian state are unlikely. Even before the cancellation, however, India was expected to favour a smaller aircraft with a lower operational cost such as the MiG-35 or French Rafale. Venezuela also reportedly showed an interest in the waning years of the Hugo Chavez administration in acquiring two dozen Su-35 fighters to supplement the same number of older Su-30MK2 jets in service, although economic crisis in the country and a poor outlook for global oil prices means such a deal is unlikely to materialise. Indonesia was also seen as a leading client early on, albeit for a small batch for 11 jets with the possibly for followup units, and a deal was deal signed in early 2018. The threat of American sanctions on Jakarta, however, has delayed the implementation of a deal and could well see it cancelled entirely.

    Although the Su-35 is still a relatively new design, its prospects on world export markets may well be rather bleak looking forward as more attractive competing jets infringe on the market share it may have otherwise had. As a result, it is far from unthinkable that the Su-35 will gain no further major export contracts beyond the sales to Egypt and China. One major reason for this is the growing sophistication of China’s defence sector which has technologically eclipsed that of Russia in many fields. China was the leading export client for the Su-27 and the second biggest export client for the Su-30 other than India - both by a considerable margin. Although Russia tried to market further squadrons of Su-35s to the country to follow on from the original deal for two dozen jets, possibly including a deal for license production, the fighter is no longer attractive considering that China’s own indigenous fighters are in many ways more capable.

    A notable example is China’s J-16 fighter, which is also based on the Flanker heavyweight airframe and entered service a year before the Su-35. The fighter benefits from an AESA radar, stealth coatings, and AESA radar guided long range missiles - all features the Su-35 lacks - as well as a more advanced electronics suite. Based on what is known of the J-16, the Su-35’s only notable advantages are its range and manoeuvrability. China’s upcoming J-11D fighter is expected to have more similarities to the Su-35 in terms of role, but will likely be much more capable across the spectrum due to the growing discrepancy in the two countries’ technological bases. Reports that China’s J-10C ‘4++ generation’ lightweight fighter won overwhelming victories over the Su-35 in combat simulations underlined this discrepancy, and a comparison of the fighters' respective capabilities indicates that such an outcome was far from implausible.

    At the higher end, the entry into service of the Su-57 next generation fighter in the Russian Air Force from December 2020 is expected to further undercut Su-35 sales, with the new fighter boasting significantly superior capabilities to the Flanker at only a modestly higher price. The Su-57 may well be considered a more cost effective aircraft by potential clients for heavyweight Russian aircraft, as the jet is expected to remain in production much longer, receive many more options for upgrades over time, and present a much greater threat to potential adversaries. A much greater number of countries have shown interest in the Su-57 than the Su-35, including Myanmar, India, Vietnam and Turkey among others.

    The second largest client for Russian arms after India, the Algerian military, notably did not purchase the Su-35 despite investing in acquiring almost all other classes of high end Russian fighter jet for decades. It is instead widely reported to have invested in Su-57 purchases, with multiple indicators that an order may have already been placed. Had the Su-57 not been available, it is likely that Algeria would have instead turned to the Su-35 or possibly an enhanced variant of the MiG-31 interceptor in its stead. The country is hardly expected to be the only one to 'skip' over the Su-35 and move straight to the Su-57. Ultimately with the Su-35 occupying a position between the Su-30SM/SM2 and the Su-57 in terms of both price and performance, its market share is expected to be crowded out by the other two fighters which many operators, including the Russian Air Force itself, will likely find more cost effective.

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    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Mon Jul 05, 2021 2:01 am

    Wow, a shit article. Thanks retard.

    I'll start off:

    - wow, AESA on a J-16!  Here is issue. No one knows what kind of radar and it's performance is. What we do know is China is good at bullshitting performance (see J-20).  Guaranteed their AESA doesn't come close to Irbis e performance.  China has pretty looking shit. But there is a reason why they bought Su-35. So they can study it and copy what they can due to their own lacking capabilities.

    Yeah, China is so technically advanced, that their air defense radar systems are being worked on by Russia cause of the lack of tech on their own end. But of course they will say their system is better, even if their experience is rather lacking compared to Russia's.

    Fucking article is shit.

    Here is the kicker, we got a video of Irbis e performance.  Where is the video of China's Uber super duper radar tests?

    And since Russia also has N036 in production, if it's necessary, they would have upgraded the sukhois of earlier with it.  But why haven't they?  You see, China makes a lot of claims, says their system is the best cause they threw in all this grand tech.  But in the end, they can't even come up with a simple standard and makes all kinds of planes on same or similar designs. If they were this fucking smart, they wouldn't have needed to steal Russian designs for their own aircrafts. Or US designs either.  Nor would they be making so many damn adjustments and variations of just one design.  At least Russia sticks to a goal.

    I give it to China. They are the biggest bullshitters of the world. Great competition to US.

    Edit: BTW, I have to admit, the marketing is strong on AESA. It's like the iPhone vs Android marketing. People fall for it rather easily.

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Mon Jul 05, 2021 3:34 am

    Chinese media and fanbois routinely spread garbage about Russian weapon systems. I recall rather recently they were trashing the S-400
    system That's hilarious chauvinist inanity.

    BTW, Russia's MIC does not pivot around exports. Finances were horrible after the 1990s mega depression, but things have recovered
    to better than 1989 conditions. There is no indication in any substantial delay in the re-armament program. So no amount of paid for
    hack commercial propaganda is going to do much. Countries can buy whatever shit they want. Then, as with Ukraine and its products,
    they can clue in and buy something else.

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    Post  TMA1 Mon Jul 05, 2021 4:27 am

    The crap Russia is getting from India and China lately is irritating. So far everyone is either flat out imitating American weapons ideology in certain fields without the overarching combined arms philosophy which is goofy af. It is not a meme that the West is even now ahead of Russia in many fields but this lead is shrinking and the hubris of my countrymen is not helping matters. The chicoms are growing almost worse in this same attitude day by day. I dont underestimate the chicoms, but I am also not fooled by their tricks or their flagrant attempts to undermine their "allies" and grandstand about the "Chinese century" that we in the West gave them on a silver platter in our arrogance and greed. The passive-aggressive snark from the east is more insufferable than the dopey hubris from the west. Apparently though you can win them over with some dumb diverterless intakes and shiny metallic coat with blocky angles and scalloped turkeyfeathers.


    Last edited by TMA1 on Mon Jul 05, 2021 4:32 am; edited 1 time in total

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    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Mon Jul 05, 2021 4:28 am

    The Russians are not the ones copying the Chinese. Simple as.

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    Post  lancelot Mon Jul 05, 2021 4:59 am

    Finty wrote:The fighter was derived from the Su-27 Flanker of the Cold War era, but was heavily enhanced with a high composite airframe, a reduced radar cross section, new more powerful AL-41 engines and a new sensor suit built around the Irbis-E radar.
    This technology is not lost on the Su-35. Those engines and radar will be used on the Su-30SM2 upgrade for the RuAF which will likely number in the hundreds.

    Finty wrote:The new Flanker boasted a much higher endurance, superior avionics and electronic warfare systems, and an air to air engagement range over three times as long as the original Su-27. Despite its advanced capabilities and relatively modest cost, with the aircraft exported for around $1 billion for each unit of twelve, the Su-35 has secured only two export contracts in over half a decade on offer. These included a deal for the sale of 24 fighters to China signed in 2015, and another deal for the sale of an estimated 26 fighters to Egypt signed in 2018 - meaning only around 50 of the aircraft have been sold.
    More exports than the F-22 had. And likely will be manufactured in higher numbers than the F-22. Like I said before, the subsystems will be used in upgrades for the Su-30 family, unlike F-22 subsystems which were not reused for anything else. Neither the engines, the radar, the avionics, nothing was reused. A massive money drain.

    Finty wrote:The threat of American sanctions on Jakarta, however, has delayed the implementation of a deal and could well see it cancelled entirely.
    This seems to be the "new" way for Uncle Sam to win against Russian hardware. Since they cannot compete on price performance they just outright threaten to impose sanctions on those who buy them. Says a lot that some countries still buy the hardware regardless of sanctions however.

    Finty wrote:Although Russia tried to market further squadrons of Su-35s to the country to follow on from the original deal for two dozen jets, possibly including a deal for license production, the fighter is no longer attractive considering that China’s own indigenous fighters are in many ways more capable.
    The problem with this assertion is if this was true they shouldn't have bought the Su-35 either with the J-11D being in an advanced state of development. Yet they did purchase the Su-35 and J-11D development seems stalled. The Su-35s they did purchase are not only in service, they are actively being used in basically their highest priority theater of operations, right next to Taiwan and Okinawa.

    Finty wrote:A notable example is China’s J-16 fighter, which is also based on the Flanker heavyweight airframe and entered service a year before the Su-35. The fighter benefits from an AESA radar, stealth coatings, and AESA radar guided long range missiles - all features the Su-35 lacks - as well as a more advanced electronics suite. Based on what is known of the J-16, the Su-35’s only notable advantages are its range and manoeuvrability. China’s upcoming J-11D fighter is expected to have more similarities to the Su-35 in terms of role, but will likely be much more capable across the spectrum due to the growing discrepancy in the two countries’ technological bases. Reports that China’s J-10C ‘4++ generation’ lightweight fighter won overwhelming victories over the Su-35 in combat simulations underlined this discrepancy, and a comparison of the fighters' respective capabilities indicates that such an outcome was far from implausible.
    AESA is not magic pixie dust. Also I have never heard of the J-16 being more stealthy than the Su-35. Perhaps as stealthy but more stealthy seems highly unlikely. The Su-35 also has weapons systems the J-16 (which is a dual seat fighter bomber) lacks. It can carry longer range and faster cruise missiles. Plus a lot of weapons are still in development for this fighter. Including the R-37M which will give it the long reach which is claimed to be a problem here. There are a lot of hints that J-11D procurement will be severely cutback in favor of the J-20. Plus I never heard about the J-10C beating the Su-35. Sounds like BS.

    Finty wrote:At the higher end, the entry into service of the Su-57 next generation fighter in the Russian Air Force from December 2020 is expected to further undercut Su-35 sales, with the new fighter boasting significantly superior capabilities to the Flanker at only a modestly higher price. The Su-57 may well be considered a more cost effective aircraft by potential clients for heavyweight Russian aircraft, as the jet is expected to remain in production much longer, receive many more options for upgrades over time, and present a much greater threat to potential adversaries. A much greater number of countries have shown interest in the Su-57 than the Su-35, including Myanmar, India, Vietnam and Turkey among others.
    Yes, Sukhoi is cannibalizing their own product line with the Su-57. Which is great actually. The Su-57 provides something no other aircraft does right now, an export ready heavy stealth fighter, with huge upgrade potential. Also, if the Su-35 was that useless, why is the "new" F-15EX, a much inferior aircraft in several metrics, being exported?

    Finty wrote:The second largest client for Russian arms after India, the Algerian military, notably did not purchase the Su-35 despite investing in acquiring almost all other classes of high end Russian fighter jet for decades. It is instead widely reported to have invested in Su-57 purchases, with multiple indicators that an order may have already been placed. Had the Su-57 not been available, it is likely that Algeria would have instead turned to the Su-35 or possibly an enhanced variant of the MiG-31 interceptor in its stead. The country is hardly expected to be the only one to 'skip' over the Su-35 and move straight to the Su-57. Ultimately with the Su-35 occupying a position between the Su-30SM/SM2 and the Su-57 in terms of both price and performance, its market share is expected to be crowded out by the other two fighters which many operators, including the Russian Air Force itself, will likely find more cost effective.
    So what if they skip it? They will quite likely buy the upgrades for their Su-30s eventually. A lot of the countries which bought the Su-30 are quite satisfied with their purchase and won't purchase another aircraft that soon.

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    Rasisuki Nebia
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    Post  Rasisuki Nebia Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:53 am

    I have noticed this trend the last couple of years from the Chinese side hating on everything Russian, A1R FLYCAM screenshot of an Su-57 flying with a 360 Cam, some Chinese and even Indians (and your usual west worshipers) criticizing the rivets on the airframe (Prototype Su-57) and how Russia was using old construction methods, funny thing is Turks joining the lot when they haven't even produced a 3rd gen aircraft themselves.

    Hate for Russia and everything Russian is the standard/default state and this mentality has spread to many others sadly.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:12 am

    The Russian AF is upgrading its Su-30s to Su-35 standard, which suggests they are happy, and the performance of a Su-35 in its primary role of hunting HATO jets including stealthy ones is not hugely effected by its main nose mounted PESA radar... it is the AESA radars in its wings that will detect the stealthy threats and for everything else Irbis is the best in the world in service.

    It is a bigger aircraft and therefore costs more to buy and more to operate, but not more than any western aircraft in terms of purchase and in terms of operational costs the extra price of using external fuel tanks and inflight refuelling to match the range performance means you would need several western fighters to get close.

    Considering the bullying tactics the US has openly applied to countries to try to stop them from buying these aircraft and S-400 SAM systems you would think no body would buy them... yet the facts are that countries are coming round to buying them.

    The problem for most small countries is that just buying one fighter plane wont protect you from the real world threat of white european nazis... in the form of the UK and France in junior terms and the US in the big leagues.

    Buying Flankers and S-400s puts you in the bad books because you are either with us or with the terrorists... there is no inbetween... so it really takes courage and sacrifice to even consider such a purchase and for most countries it is not worth it to throw your entire economy upside down to get a good plane.

    For places like Turkey and Egypt where a potential enemy could be Israel in which they can expect all their American systems to stop working then buying from Russia makes sense no matter what the cost.

    The Chinese are coming on in leaps and bounds and their equipment often looks rather good because they base it on the best they can get their hands on.

    The problem for them is that the really secret stuff like jet engines is very high tech and very secret and not something you can buy analyse and then reproduce in a mass production factory you just built 100 of.

    Russias military market has shrunk dramatically over the last 30 years... mainly because eastern europe jumped ship and now buy worn out hand me down F-16s instead of making the training jets for the Soviet Block.

    Most of the rest of the world struggles to buy such high tech expensive items as an Su-35... which of course is an F-15 class aircraft... how many neutral or anti west air forces operating those sorts of aircraft... I would say the only one would ironically be Iran with their F-14s... and they only got them when the CIA was in charge there.

    The Su-35 was a gap plane and might not be produced in enormous numbers, but then most people saying that expect the Su-57 to be produced in enormous numbers to replace it.

    The fact is that Russia never had the goal of an all stealth fighter fleet... there was never any conscious choice to replace one or the other... I rather expect they might make about 300 Su-57s and keep a similar number of Su-35s and Su-30s and buy MiG-35s and LMFS aircraft to operate in smaller areas in european Russia where long range is not so valuable.

    Seems they wont be up against 3,500 F-35s... which is a bit of a shame because that plane was an excellent money pit to drain military budgets across HATO so they couldn't afford to spend money on useful things.

    Hate for Russia and everything Russian is the standard/default state and sadly this mentality has spread to many others as well.

    It is a hate derived by ignorance... no wonder coca cola sells so well...

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Mon Jul 05, 2021 2:27 pm

    For sure the western propaganda drivel is tiresome. I am no longer sure who it is aimed at. Western audiences are already converts so
    no point aiming it at them. Russians are just intellectually insulted by this crap. So that leaves the "journalists" circle jerking themselves
    silly in a frenzy of inadequacy driven projection.

    Reminds me of the global warming deniers who spout the same garbage talking points over and over even though they are debunked every time.


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    Post  limb Mon Jul 05, 2021 3:20 pm

    lyle6 wrote:The Russians are not the ones copying the Chinese. Simple as.

    The chinese only copied the AL-41. Chinese semiconductor tech is still far superior due to multidecades western investment and technology transfer.

    How do we know the byelka isnt BS?NIIP lied about it having GaN modules ready, but afaik the byelka in the only Su-57 still uses GAs.

    After all phazotron lied for a decade that they had an AESA ready with their zhuk yet it turns out its barely ready hot garbage?


    Ofc all theories about AESA performance of other countries is irrelevant since everything is classified. For example there is 0 evidence that western TR modules have high failure rate outside of wishful thinking and speculation, just how the west wishfully thinks Russian Lband is just for IFF.

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    Post  TMA1 Mon Jul 05, 2021 3:31 pm

    They didn't lie about the zhuk afar, though yes they hyped it up too much. And the GaN module controversy I think revolved around the l band arrays getting confused.

    The chicoms get their asses kissed by western defense rags. I don't understand why and I don't like it. I feel that the western nations in their hubris sold out to China, thinking they could keep a reign on the chicoms and that somehow they didn't have greater ambitions. That or some were just outright treacherous.

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