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    Russian Transport Aircraft fleet (VTA)

    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Sat Oct 22, 2022 12:17 pm

    AMCXXL wrote:
    82 meters length ?
    88 meters wingspan ?

    this is the size of An-225, Buran space shuttle program will be resumed?
    this is nonsensical, is the USSR back ?

    There is a lot of information about that development, including a technical study of two fuselage width options, considerations for airports, runways and so on, I would upload here but there is no file hosting option in the forum. So I don't think it is nonsensical, people with adequate knowledge are assessing the best approach and they seem to find use in a super-heavy plane. It would be just a bit bigger than An-124 (180 t payload), making use of the PD-35 that will be available by the end of the decade. They are not in a hurry, but they need to keep going. The biggest change now is that maybe the Ruslan could return to Russia, but most probably they don't have all the infrastructure in place for producing it without huge investments, in which case it would make more sense to make the next step and go for a more modern and capable design. I might be wrong, but I see no megalomania in having such a plane.

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    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sat Oct 22, 2022 1:43 pm

    About the An-178, its engines are way to small for a 18tons payload.

    In a wiki page it was reported a more honest payload.

    12, or 16 tons of cargo, overload variant 18 tons.


    Basically it can carry 16 or 18 tons only if almost empty of fuel.

    Maybe it could cover the smaller payload niche (10-15 tons of payload), and the Tu-330 could instead cover the higher end of the niche (25-35 tons), but I do not know if there are actually a lot of issues on that project.

    The tu330 is also a paper aircraft, but it is a very interesting project, but it is about 20 % larger than the kc-390,
    And could benefit of the restart of serial production of the tu-214 in kazan


    Note: as far as the Ruslan, two thirds of them were assembled in Russia and the wings were made in Uzbekistan. Furthermore many of the internal systems (that anyway are absolutely in need of modernisation) were produced in Russia. The only thing Russia was not producing was large turbofans with 24 tons of takeoff thrust.

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Sat Oct 22, 2022 2:01 pm

    PD-35 will have 50% more thrust than the D-18T. So a quad engine PD-35 aircraft will effectively have the same thrust as a six engine D-18T aircraft. So yes the Slon would have the same performance as the An-225.

    Another thing they could do with the PD-35 is replace the Il-76 quad engine with a dual engine aircraft. Because the PD-35 has more or less twice the thrust of the PS-90. This would be something similar to the Kawasaki C-2. But I have seen no plans for such an aircraft.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Oct 22, 2022 2:26 pm

    The An-124 started life as a 120 ton payload aircraft and was upgraded to a 150 ton payload type, which suggests there is demand for heavier capacity planes... with four PD-35s a Slon actually has almost as much engine power than the An-225 but less frontal drag from four engines instead of six.

    Not to mention the PD-35 is supposed to have thrust potential from 35 tons up to 50 tons so there is plenty of scope for an aircraft that could carry enormous loads on its back with an H tail configuration.

    Factors that should be taken into account is that the Tu-204/214 is back into production, and also the light vehicles the Russian Army might want to cart around are not 14 ton BTRs and 18 ton BMPs but instead 25 ton Boomerangs and 20 ton Typhoons so perhaps a Tu-330 is back in the mix... a 35 ton aircraft is an interesting new option.

    Yes, that is the matter, after the cancelation of Il-276 project, there are not a clear candidate to replace An-12

    Do you have confirmation that the Il-276 is cancelled?

    I would say the Tu-330 makes more sense if the Tu-204 and Tu-214 are back in production... its 35 ton payload capacity just make it more useful but I would think in the longer term a scaled down 20 ton capacity jet aircraft like the Il-276 still make sense and Il-476 customers might like the commonality...

    the current options are:

    Turbo fan:
    Y-9 (chinese improved An-12)
    An-70

    No, and no, because both are backward steps and the An-70 is an Il-76 replacement for the VDV and would be too big to replace the An-12... the Y-9 is just a new build An-12.

    Jet:
    An-178
    C-390 (Brasil as a BRICS country can be interesting to be a parthner in some military areas)

    Antonov are dead, but a plane from Brazil is interesting... as long as they turn out to be more reliable than the Czechs have been with their Let aircraft...

    As for the C-390, it is the most interesting, I don't know if the Russian engines could also be attached to it to facilitate logistics

    It would need to be investigated properly to ensure everything is compatible and most of the Avionics would likely need to be replaced with Russian stuff because western avionics suppliers might blackball Brazil if they sell them to the Russian military.

    I would guess Brazil will not want to risk its sales to the west by selling transport planes to the Russian military.

    World wide there is a market for An-12 sized aircraft that are not as expensive as C-130s.

    this is the size of An-225, Buran space shuttle program will be resumed?
    this is nonsensical, is the USSR back ?

    Actually the Russians are talking about new space shuttles and other space craft being built so having an aircraft that can carry large external loads makes a lot of sense.... perhaps half a dozen Slons with H tails for external loads would be worthwhile.

    The point is that with four PD-35s it only has about four tons thrust less than the An-225...

    The only thing Russia was not producing was large turbofans with 24 tons of takeoff thrust.

    But that is a problem... developing PD-24s or PD-25s just for use on an aircraft you are planning on building a replacement for does not make sense.

    Another thing they could do with the PD-35 is replace the Il-76 quad engine with a dual engine aircraft. Because the PD-35 has more or less twice the thrust of the PS-90. This would be something similar to the Kawasaki C-2. But I have seen no plans for such an aircraft.

    An Il-106 with two PD-35s in the 90-110ton payload capacity range can perform missions the Il-476 is too small for but the An-124 is a bit big for... and the Slon with four PD-35s it can carry 180 tons payload, or likely similar payloads to what the An-124s carry now but over much larger distances...
    AMCXXL
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    Post  AMCXXL Sat Oct 22, 2022 3:35 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:About the An-178, its engines are way to small for a 18tons payload.

    In a wiki page it was reported a more honest payload.

    12, or 16 tons of cargo, overload variant 18 tons.


    Basically it can carry 16 or 18 tons only if almost empty of fuel.

    This is the same in all airplanes.
    The numbers of 12 to 16 tons probably is with a standard fuel load and a standard cargo on standard palllets, that depends of the dimensions of the cargo hold, that is, how many pallets fit and how much each pallet weighs

    For example, An-12 empty weight is 28t, max.fuel 23t, MTOW 61t, then only 10 ton of load with max. fuel, this is less that the half of max. payload
    With max payload of 21t, you only can load 12 tons of fuel instead 23t

    The empty weigth of An-178 must be arround 24t (22t for An-158), then with max. fuel can load 12t, 2/3 of max payloadtotal
    The range of An-178 with 10t of load is 4000 km

    The main problem with AN-178 is the small size of the wings, lees sustentation, less fuel capacity
    If you want an airplane olny for regional use there is no problem with this




    Note: as far as the Ruslan, two thirds of them were assembled in Russia and the wings were made in Uzbekistan. Furthermore many of the internal systems (that anyway are absolutely in need of modernisation) were produced in Russia. The only thing Russia was not producing was large turbofans with 24 tons of takeoff thrust.

    no problem with the motors, Russia will win the war and Motor Sich, Antonov and other will return to Russia

    I dont see Russian MioD spending in expensive cargo planes, this is not a priority and the money must be spent in weapon sistems of advanced technology


    By other side, I dont be surprised if the replacement for An-12 in the mixed transport regiments is the Il-76MD-M once the Il-76 is replaced by Il-476 in the VTA regiments
    Usually the Il-76 help in the transport missiones in the airfields of Levashovo, Koltsovo, Khavarovsk, Belaya, Olenya or Severomorsk where the most of the An-12 is based

    Shoigu ask for increase the number of Il-76 to 250 that is a very high number for the VTA regiments, even if open one of two more VTA regiments, so this can be a signal that he wants to use modernized soviet Il-76MD-M once An-12 is being retired and the production of Il-476 get the cruise speed

    ALso not surprised if An-72/74 production is reopen once Kharkov returns to Russia
    Shoigu wants a AN-72 with more payload for the artic region
    Several An-72 of the Ru Navy have been improved to allow more payload


    Last edited by AMCXXL on Sat Oct 22, 2022 4:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Oct 22, 2022 3:50 pm

    no problem with the motors, Russia will win the war and Motor Sich, Antonov and other will return to Russia

    This war is going to destroy Motor Sich and Antonov etc... if they have not already had their equipment stolen or destroyed, it will happen now... they will be using equipment for repair which will make them targets for missile attack rendering them useless.

    What is left of the Ukraine wont be making much to start with... I would expect crops and mines will be the first to be restored.


    I dont see Russian MioD spending in expensive cargo planes, this is not a priority and the money must be spent in weapon sistems of advanced technology

    Domestic and international need for replacements of Soviet aircraft means it would actually be profitable.

    An Il-276 makes more sense than an An-72...

    ALso not surprised if An-72/74 production is reopen once Kharkov returns to Russia

    The current enemies in Ukraine are nazis... are you expecting anything other than a scorched earth policy when they start to get pushed back?


    Last edited by GarryB on Sat Oct 22, 2022 4:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
    AMCXXL
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    Post  AMCXXL Sat Oct 22, 2022 3:52 pm

    lancelot wrote:PD-35 will have 50% more thrust than the D-18T. So a quad engine PD-35 aircraft will effectively have the same thrust as a six engine D-18T aircraft. So yes the Slon would have the same performance as the An-225.

    Another thing they could do with the PD-35 is replace the Il-76 quad engine with a dual engine aircraft. Because the PD-35 has more or less twice the thrust of the PS-90. This would be something similar to the Kawasaki C-2. But I have seen no plans for such an aircraft.

    Pherhaps this is good if you want to compete with civil cargo airplanes as Boeing 747 or Airbys

    I not saw Russian MoD say nothig about it

    You are confusing the aeronautical industry that is looking for profitability and new markets with the Ministry of Defense that is very busy trying to win a war and that puts its limited money on things that it needs to win the wars that it is forced to fight.

    Yes, perhaps engineers have to justify their salary and present beautiful designs at international armament or aeronautics fairs and forums.

    At the moment the Russian Ministry of Defense is more modest and puts its money on what it needs most urgently, such as having more Il-76s, Kilo Improved submarines, Tu-160, Tu-214 for special missions etc...

    Before 2040 we will not see the VKS use anything other than Il-476 and An-124 (for some specific loads)
    It is much better to have two Il-476 carrying 60t of cargo than one An-124 carrying 120t (exceot in very wide size cargo)
    Redundancy means resiliency and security
    AMCXXL
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    Post  AMCXXL Sat Oct 22, 2022 4:04 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    This war is going to destroy Motor Sich and Antonov etc... if they have not already had their equipment stolen or destroyed, it will happen now... they will be using equipment for repair which will make them targets for missile attack rendering them useless.

    What is left of the Ukraine wont be making much to start with... I would expect crops and mines will be the first to be restored.


    The only Russia need of Antonov and Motor Sich are the industrial property (patents and designs) and the workers

    in fact this war is about the ukrainian population, the West want to steall to Russia the population of Ukraine, in special the east and south population


    Domestic and international need for replacements of Soviet aircraft means it would actually be profitable.

    An Il-276 makes more sense than an An-72...

    Il-276 is closed , because Ru MoD dont want or cannot fund and the russian "entrepreneurs" do not want to "invest" and risk themselves developing the project with their own money
    There are  too many projects ongoing in Russia, the russian industry cannot do more

    Zelensky ordered several An-74 , the Kharkov plant woujd be able to resume the production, but there are no workers and no money for pay (only corruption)[/quote]
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    Post  GarryB Sat Oct 22, 2022 4:11 pm


    Zelensky ordered several An-74 , the Kharkov plant woujd be able to resume the production, but there are no workers and no money for pay (only corruption)
    [/quote]

    He also ordered Putin to step down or he wont talk...

    Antonov is gone... I doubt there are any machines or patents or documents left... those arse holes would rather burn their An-225 than let the Russians capture it... do you think they will think differently about any other project?

    I mean it is obvious that the new Antonov projects are why Putin really invaded because they were so amazing he wanted the Russian military to capture them for themselves... Twisted Evil

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sat Oct 22, 2022 4:41 pm

    AMCXXL wrote:...

    Before 2040 we will not see the VKS use anything other than Il-476 and An-124 (for some specific loads)
    It is much better to have two Il-476 carrying 60t of cargo than one An-124 carrying 120t (exceot in very wide size cargo)
    Redundancy means resiliency and security

    Nato have leased an-124 weekly for their operations in africa and middle east.

    You can't replace it with two il-76 or il-476.

    That's the most valuable aircraft for troop transfers. Il-76 can't do its work.

    They can always take tge one that are in ukraine once they capture them. They will have enough of them.

    Anyway, one thing is sure, they will have to improve their aviation industry totally including the civilian sector.

    They need to focus on what they already have like tu-204, ssj, il 76, il-114, tu-214, il-96... rework them with modern engines and systems and start mass production. Could even partener with China and India for the production of some parts.
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    Post  AMCXXL Sat Oct 22, 2022 5:27 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Nato have leased an-124 weekly for their operations in africa and middle east.

    You can't replace it with two il-76 or il-476.

    That's the most valuable aircraft for troop transfers. Il-76 can't do its work.

    They can always take tge one that are in ukraine once they capture them. They will have enough of them.

    Anyway, one thing is sure, they will have to improve their aviation industry totally including the civilian sector.

    They need to focus on what they already have like tu-204, ssj, il 76, il-114, tu-214, il-96... rework them with modern engines and systems and start mass production. Could even partener with China and India for the production of some parts.

    Russia does not need send troops to Argentina, IL-76 is the airplane of VDV forces and will be for decades

    Shoigu was vey clear last year
    He want increase the number of Il-76 to 250, this is more than 100 more than current numbers

    Also wants to increase An-124 in service at least to 16 (two squadrons of 8 , probably one squadron for Sescha and other for Ulyanovsk)
    Now there are 13 An-124-100 probably 11 or 12 currently flying at the same time, at least one is in maintenance un Ulyanovsk plant.
    Also one AN-124 was moved from the reserve of Sescha two years ago but there are no news about its modernization
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sat Oct 22, 2022 7:06 pm

    Most of the an-124 owned by Antonov airlines are currently in Nato countries (and one of them got destroyed when ukraine bombarded gostomiel airfield).



    It is true that currently a PD-24 is not in development (but I believe it was mentioned in one of the plans from UEC), but I remember that there were proposals for larger version of the MC-21 -400LR, (MS-21-500 and MC-21-600 Modifications of the MS-21, intended for the distant future, the parameters of which have not yet been determined) which will be possibly needing such engines.



    And such engines could also be used by some interesting project like the frigate ecojet (abandoned because of lack of suitable modern engines, but also because of impossibility of cooperation between Russia and the west).



    So Russia will probably develop PD-24 sometimes after 2030.



    What to do in the meanwhile (keeping into account that the Ukrainian proposals to westernise the an-124 mentioned using the CF-6 engine, which is even older than the D18T)?

    The easiest solution would be trying to restart production of the D18T (if possible), and maybe try to do a modernisation of the engine to improve performance and reliability. An alternative could be the already proposed (since at least 2016) NK-23D, that would be a sort of derivative of the supersonic NK32 of the Tu-160, sharing the same core but with a new fan an LP turbine. It was never mentioned anymore since at least 2018, also because the numbers of planned engines to be produced were too little and its planned specs were worse than the D18T.



    But yeah the il106 is needed, however not as an124 replacement, but as An22 replacement, so in the original project size (circa 80 tons payload).
    Still, I am curious if it would make sense instead of a quad jet, possibly a twin engine with two PD35 engines (as anyway the project is still early)
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    Post  GarryB Sun Oct 23, 2022 3:31 am

    Pherhaps this is good if you want to compete with civil cargo airplanes as Boeing 747 or Airbys

    I not saw Russian MoD say nothig about it

    The Russian military are not in this alone... they can tag team the government assisted airlines to fund things that are useful.

    The west is not going to brighten up, there is going to be competition for the rest of the world and it is going to be western tactics of sanctions and strings and demands to conform to their model of society that is going to push the rest of the world to reject them... but how can they reject them if the only aircraft they can buy are Boeings and Airbuses?

    It is giving the west strings to pull to give them control.

    As I said they don't need to drop the An-124 right away, they could keep the ones they have running with spares and extra aircraft they have in storage, but instead of building new ones they don't have vast numbers of engines for they should be pushing ahead with the Il-106 or the jnr Slon... even if it starts life with four of the 18 ton thrust PS90 engines to start with and then gets the twin engine PD-35 wing when that engine is ready.

    With the Il-476 set up several extra production factories to get the aircraft into service even faster... normally that is a bad thing because it means you put out lots of planes but then you have lots of factories standing with nothing to do when production is finished, but I think export of these aircraft will be good and also half of the factories can shift to making 40-50 Il-476s with propfan engines to essentially replace the An-70 for the VDV... and also you could change production to the Il-276 with a shorter fuselage and smaller wings and two engines instead of four and that would not only replace the An-12 but with jet performance it would also replace the An-72 as well... and basically using the same aircraft as a baseline.

    I think with the Tu-204 and Tu-214 going into production they would be an excellent low risk replacement for the Il-20 and Il-22 and the Tu-154M and the Il-38 Mays and lots of other airliner types from the 1960s and 70s still in use in the military... it would also make a good medium inflight refuelling aircraft... not to mention the Tu-330 transport in the interesting 35 ton payload range which might be more suitable to carry new armour types.

    Worst case scenario would be to bring some An-124s out of storage and fit them with 18 ton thrust PS90 engines and use them for 80-90 ton payloads as an An-22 replacement till the PD-35 engines are ready... the aerodynamics might not be perfect so it might burn a little more fuel than it should but in Russian military service that is not super important while they are waiting for the PD-35s and other engine types.

    The core road block is the engines.

    You are confusing the aeronautical industry that is looking for profitability and new markets with the Ministry of Defense that is very busy trying to win a war and that puts its limited money on things that it needs to win the wars that it is forced to fight.

    It is less about actually fighting wars and more about creating a logistics base that can distribute what is needed to where it is needed... which is why a plane like Slon and Il-106 would be useful. The Il-476 is an excellent new plane but a bigger plane can carry any load they can carry plus loads they cannot carry... but more importantly they can carry loads further without having to stop or island hop.

    A bigger plane can't be in two places at once and of course using a really big plane to carry a tiny load and very short distance is just stupid, but in most militaries there are always extra payloads that can be added when you are operating a little light.... and of course sometimes the place you are going to has the big load to be taken out that can't be broken down into smaller loads, but that is all part of logistics... reducing fuel and time wasting.

    At the moment the Russian Ministry of Defense is more modest and puts its money on what it needs most urgently, such as having more Il-76s, Kilo Improved submarines, Tu-160, Tu-214 for special missions etc...

    They don't get incredible value for money for no reason... they treat the money like it is their own personal money and don't waste it... which is good... but Russia needs transport planes to replace existing types in use that are near exhaustion... most are being held up by new engines, but there are lots of aircraft production factories not working hard right now that could be.

    I like the idea of looking at Brazilian types... what do they have in the L-410 and L-610 size... they are using the VK-800 engine for the Baikal LMS-901, so it makes sense to fit it to the L-410 replacement, and they are developing new more powerful engines for larger aircraft like the L-610, so that should be covered...

    Are there any Brazilian types that could take these Russian engines and be licence produced in Russia?

    I am sure the income would be welcome, and the potential for cooperation is huge.

    As mentioned on another thread DENEL is a good company and worth cooperation in a few fields too like artillery.


    Before 2040 we will not see the VKS use anything other than Il-476 and An-124 (for some specific loads)

    Then why aren't the AN-12s and An-24/25/26s and An-72s and the An-2s all retired?

    These smaller types operate with much smaller loads at much smaller airfields that those two types could not hope to operate from... and over such short distances it would be ridiculous to tie up such aircraft for..

    It is much better to have two Il-476 carrying 60t of cargo than one An-124 carrying 120t (exceot in very wide size cargo)
    Redundancy means resiliency and security

    Russia is a big country... a 65 ton payload that has to go 7,000km in one flight because there are no suitable airfields on the way and you realise the An-124 is not just for super heavy loads.

    It is also a good point because the Il-76 has a 60 ton payload capacity not by accident... it was a requirement that allowed the aircraft to carry one tank and some pallets or a certain number of pallets or specific vehicles.

    Odds are with the new vehicles like Typhoon and Boomerang and Kurganets and Armata that the weight requirements will change and perhaps a 35 ton payload capacity aircraft becomes useful.

    When you only have a hammer and flat head screwdriver you can only deal with nails and flat head screws... not very flexible... certainly cheaper and easier to carry around.

    I appreciate what you are saying... a computer technician does not haul around 50 different sized screwdrivers... one phillips head will do most jobs, but a builder might need a better selection.


    The only Russia need of Antonov and Motor Sich are the industrial property (patents and designs) and the workers

    Likely already burned and scattered either to other countries or on some front line somewhere shivering in a trench.

    in fact this war is about the ukrainian population, the West want to steall to Russia the population of Ukraine, in special the east and south population

    The Americans see all the former soviet states as being Russians and loves to use them against each other to destroy each other because they don't care which side loses men or civilians or property... they are expecting to make money from the international community rebuilding which will all be fake and corruption... the funny thing is they are not expecting to lose.

    Il-276 is closed , because Ru MoD dont want or cannot fund and the russian "entrepreneurs" do not want to "invest" and risk themselves developing the project with their own money
    There are too many projects ongoing in Russia, the russian industry cannot do more

    So the money they save not going forward on the Il-276 design they are going to piss away on putting An-72s back into production and using Il-476s in roles they currently use the An-12s for?

    That would cost more because no rest of the world country is going to buy an Il-476 to replace an An-12, so they will have to go with expensive western planes which means the west can use that as a string for sanctions to control them.

    Very short sighted.

    I understand from a military point of view, but for the Russian government they need to step in... such aircraft can make money because smaller aircraft like the An-12 are built and used in large numbers and export well.... even if they go with the Tu-330 they should also make the Il-276 for countries already buying the Il-476 and wanting an An-12 replacement that don't need more than 20 ton payloads.


    Nato have leased an-124 weekly for their operations in africa and middle east.

    HATO heavily leased both the 124 and the 76 because they are cheap and efficient transports compared with their Galaxys and C-17s...

    All those HATO countries each buying fighter planes but none of them smart enough to buy transport planes... which are always valuable in war and also useful in peace time for moving things around.

    When HATO goes to war and 30 HATO countries arrive and they all bring fighter planes but only the US has transports... it is like a barbeque where everyone brings potato salad and no one brings the sausages or steaks.


    Russia does not need send troops to Argentina, IL-76 is the airplane of VDV forces and will be for decades

    A turboprop or turbofan powered one might suit them better...

    He want increase the number of Il-76 to 250, this is more than 100 more than current numbers

    And that makes good sense because it is a useful plane but setting up even more factories to build them creates lots of capacity to build Il-76 like planes so why not add the factories now and then use the extra capacity to look at Il-276s to replace the An-12s which will need replacement, while the others work on export Il-476s... the export market for both types should be significant so it is not a waste of money developing the Il-276 at all.

    Also wants to increase An-124 in service at least to 16 (two squadrons of 8 , probably one squadron for Sescha and other for Ulyanovsk)
    Now there are 13 An-124-100 probably 11 or 12 currently flying at the same time, at least one is in maintenance un Ulyanovsk plant.
    Also one AN-124 was moved from the reserve of Sescha two years ago but there are no news about its modernization

    Having the production capacity to make An-124s means they have the capacity to make Il-106s... a slightly smaller aircraft that should be more modern and cheaper to operate, and those PS90 18 ton thrust engines are supposed to be rather more reliable than the Ukrainian engines the An-124 uses.

    So Russia will probably develop PD-24 sometimes after 2030.

    In that case I would say don't bother... after 2030 PD-35s will be in production so a twin engine An-22 replacement and a Slon type make more sense than trying to revive and old soviet relic.

    Get any An-124s in storage out of storage and fit them with PS-90 engines in the 18 ton thrust range and use them with 80-90 ton payloads like an An-22 replacement... cheaper to operate.

    But yeah the il106 is needed, however not as an124 replacement, but as An22 replacement, so in the original project size (circa 80 tons payload).
    Still, I am curious if it would make sense instead of a quad jet, possibly a twin engine with two PD35 engines (as anyway the project is still early)

    Just for the military use fuel burn is not critical so perfect naccelle engine wing configuration is not super important... starting an Il-106 with four 18 ton thrust PS90s and then when the PD-35s are ready shifting to a twin engined version would be sensible in my opinion... the current production capacity to make An-124s could be used to make Il-106s but also reengine some extra An-124s wiht PS90 engines to operate with reduced payload and perhaps fuel to fill an An-22 role till the new engines are ready and new planes can be built and tested.

    Using alternative engines is normal... look at the Su-57... most aircraft will get new engines over time as engine technology tends to improve with design and materials faster than aerodynamics and construction techniques.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sun Oct 23, 2022 9:01 am

    Going from 4 engines to two require a massive wing redesign and a recertification (not just an update of the certification). It is worth to do it for the il-96, but not probably for the il-106, if you have already created and built it in a quadjet form.
    Just eventually put there new more efficient engines (but still four of them).
     If you are in the design phase everything can be changed, of course taking into account of the impact on other parts and systems. Once the design is over, the development is finished and the aircraft is in production, the impact and cost of a change in design is much higher.

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    Post  AMCXXL Sun Oct 23, 2022 1:43 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    Con el Il-476, configure varias fábricas de producción adicionales para que el avión entre en servicio aún más rápido... normalmente eso es algo malo porque significa que saca muchos aviones, pero luego tiene muchas fábricas sin nada que hacer cuando la producción está terminada, pero creo que la exportación de estos aviones será buena y también la mitad de las fábricas pueden pasar a fabricar 40-50 Il-476 con motores propfan para reemplazar esencialmente el An-70 por el VDV ... y también podría cambiar la producción al Il-276 con un fuselaje más corto y alas más pequeñas y dos motores en lugar de cuatro y eso no solo reemplazaría al An-12 sino que con el rendimiento del jet también reemplazaría al An-72 ... y básicamente usando la misma aeronave como línea de base.

    Creo que con el Tu-204 y el Tu-214 entrando en producción, serían un excelente reemplazo de bajo riesgo para el Il-20 e Il-22 y el Tu-154M y el Il-38 Mays y muchos otros tipos de aviones de pasajeros del 1960 y 70 todavía en uso en el ejército... también sería un buen avión mediano de reabastecimiento en vuelo... sin mencionar el transporte Tu-330 en el interesante rango de carga útil de 35 toneladas que podría ser más adecuado para transportar nuevos tipos de armadura .

    El peor de los casos sería sacar algunos An-124 del almacenamiento y equiparlos con motores PS90 de 18 toneladas de empuje y usarlos para cargas útiles de 80-90 toneladas como reemplazo de An-22 hasta que los motores PD-35 estén listos... la aerodinámica puede no ser perfecta, por lo que puede quemar un poco más de combustible de lo que debería, pero en el servicio militar ruso eso no es muy importante mientras esperan los PD-35 y otros tipos de motores.



    You are mixing a lot of things:

    In the first place, the USSR aeronautical industry was devastated in the 90s, when it began to recover, the coup in Ukraine came, which broke ties with the Ukrainian aeronautical industry, which was closely intertwined with the Russian one, therefore the ability to do more of what they are already doing, that is, rescuing Soviet-designed planes, and that is not going to change in the short term.
    The civil sector is different since it moves in terms of investment-benefit, and there they have found good projects such as the SSJ and the MS-21

    Second, if you want to rebuild the aircraft industry, as happens in shipbuilding, you have to start small and simple.
    The Russian Navy started with the smaller ships like Buyan and Stereguschy, then it is continuing with the Gorskov and Ivan Gren, etc... however it maintains the great Soviet ships like Udaloy, Kirov and Kuznestov, all those fabulous imperial destroyer designs nuclear aircraft carriers are just commercial propaganda or justification for the salary of engineers in design offices, in addition to much sensationalism in the specialized defense press. Replacements will arrive after 2040

    The same thing happens in the aeronautical industry.
    For large aircraft they should keep the Soviet heritage going, while starting with the simple, like the Il-112 (which in my opinion is a flop before it starts).
    Getting this up and running will take years of testing and tweaking and only then will the level be raised.

    On the other hand, if you manufacture the Il-76MD-90A in the next 15-20 years and the useful life is 30-40 years, they will be in service until 2070 or more, so no more planes are needed.

    About the Il-276 is simply closed, Ru MoD dont have money or dont want it


    The Il-112 is a pure shit, has a bad  It is badly planned from the root, nobody wants a plane with only 5 tons of cargo in the best of cases, the best is cancel or start with a diferent way
    Even in the case of try something like il-276 this will be after the Il-112 and this will take one more decade or more, and An-12 replacement cannot wait for more time
    As I said, Russia must decide to purchase An-12 replacement to a foreing country or well try an  Antonov replacement if can get the Antonov property after the war

    For example:

    Kazhakstan
    is replacing An-26 (5 ton payload) with C-295 (9,5 ton payload)
    is replacing An-12 (21 ton payload) with A-400M (37 ton pauload)

    Uzbekistan is also replacing  An-26 with C-295

    India that has An-32 has signed a huge contract for 56 C-295 and also is replacin Il-76 with C-17. And does not have An-12


    Do you think Il-112 (that today does still is not available and will not for years) can compete with C-295 ??? of course not
    SImply Russia lost 20 years and lost this market

    The only reason to start a light military cargo plane as Il-112 from zero is that the Russian government needs more than 200 such planes for various departments, not only the VKS and the Navy, but also the interior ministry, the border guard or the ministry of emergencies, in addition to small private companies that provide service on a regional scale in siberia or the arctic, the domestic market can exceed 300 units
    This amount justifies the project even if it does not export any

    This does not happen in the case of the An-12 substitute
    Many countries are replacing their medium cargo aircraft such as C-130 or An-12 for A-400M or even C-390
    Even countries like Belarus or Uzbekistan don't even use it, they only have Il-76 and An-26
    Russia is simply out and will be out, does not make sense invest some resources and money in this type of airplane for only an internal market of 70 or 80 machines
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    Post  lancelot Sun Oct 23, 2022 2:42 pm

    The Il-276 would be just making an airframe. Half of the cost of making a new aircraft is designing the engine. The Il-276 would use either already available PS-90 or engine in common with MC-21-400 which is PD-14M. And there is still a window of opportunity for exports to countries like China or India if they get it working on time.
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    Post  AMCXXL Sun Oct 23, 2022 3:46 pm

    lancelot wrote:The Il-276 would be just making an airframe. Half of the cost of making a new aircraft is designing the engine. The Il-276 would use either already available PS-90 or engine in common with MC-21-400 which is PD-14M. And there is still a window of opportunity for exports to countries like China or India if they get it working on time.

    the only person that wanted Il-276 is Shoigu, and now is very busy trying to win a war, the program was cancelles last year when the preparations for war began


    https://diana-mihailova.livejournal.com/6020740.html

    2021 - 01 - 26
    The program of the Russian competitor of An-70 , the SVTS Il-276 is finally closed

    The project to create a medium-sized military transport aircraft Il-276 is closed due to work on other projects of the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC).

    According to the information received, the preliminary design of a transport aircraft with a dimension between Il-112V and Il-76MD-90A was carried out in 2017-2019, and was supposed to replace the Soviet An-12 military transport aircraft. However, according to sources, the Il-276 project was closed due to the redistribution of funds to other UAC projects, as well as after a series of layoffs in the design bureau.

    “Even a part of the working design documentation was developed. However, then the management changed, the Design Bureau was laid off. As a result, the UAC decided that in order not to overwhelm other work - on Il-76, Il-96, Il-112, An-124, Il -114 - you have to give up something."

    The decision of the UAC was supported by the Ministry of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation, which was busy seeking funds to finance the Ural Civil Aviation Plant (UZGA).

    "As a result, the contract was closed by a common decision ... So Russia will not have a medium-sized transporter to replace the An-12," the sources summed up.


    The Il-276 project involved the creation of a twin-engine medium military transport aircraft for transporting cargo weighing up to 20 tons over a distance of up to 2000 km. The flight speed of the SVTS would be 800 kilometers per hour. The development of the aircraft was carried out immediately for two types of engines - at the first stage, the aircraft would receive the PS-90A-76 engine, at the next stage - the upgraded PD-14. On-board radio-electronic equipment would allow the aircraft to fly in any weather conditions day and night.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sun Oct 23, 2022 4:09 pm

    I am still trying to understand if Russia actually needs the il-112v (at least with the current specs).

    Anyway in the post soviet period the only projects where Ilyushin did not mess up were the modernisation of the il114 and of the il-76, probably because they had a very good base to start with and the airframe was not really to modify.

    Both the il112v and the il-276 are (in paper) subpar if compared with Aircrafts with similar size (both old and new aircrafts) and the il-112v prototype revealed itself to be overweight and with a wrong weight balance (so needing actually ballast on the front in order to be able to fly safely). It is true that some of this could be corrected. But again the question is: is it needed?

    Basically it loses in specs against the old An-26.
    Maybe if its characteristics were similar to the C-295 (which actually has less powerful engines it could be more appealing).


    Furthermore Russia has already in development a nice aircraft of similar size to the il-112v, it is the TVRS-44 Ladoga. A cargo version of it could be interesting also for the military (even if probably it would be to narrow to fit some payloads).

    But yes, I believe someone in Russia is already thinking about modernised An32 and An72 as a good fit for the need of VTA (and slightly derated PD8 would be a good fit for the An72 as well).

    As far as the il276, the only advantage is its commonality with the il(4)76. And I still believe that the il76 is a stopgap for Russia.
    Personally I would prefer a comeback of  Tu330  (and possibly of the yak-44).
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    Post  AMCXXL Sun Oct 23, 2022 5:17 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:I am still trying to understand if Russia actually needs the il-112v (at least with the current specs).

    Anyway in the post soviet period the only projects where Ilyushin did not mess up were the modernisation of the il114 and of the il-76, probably because they had a very good base to start with and the airframe was not really to modify.

    Both the il112v and the il-276 are (in paper) subpar if compared with Aircrafts with similar size (both old and new aircrafts) and the il-112v prototype revealed itself to be overweight and with a wrong weight balance (so needing actually ballast on the front in order to be able to fly safely). It is true that some of this could be corrected. But again the question is: is it needed?

    Basically it loses in specs against the old An-26.
    Maybe if its characteristics were similar to the C-295 (which actually has less powerful engines it could be more appealing).


    Furthermore Russia has already in development a nice aircraft of similar size to the il-112v, it is the TVRS-44 Ladoga. A cargo version of it could be interesting also for the military (even if probably it would be to narrow to fit some payloads).

    But yes, I believe someone in Russia is already thinking about modernised An32 and An72 as a good fit for the need of VTA (and slightly derated PD8 would be a good fit for the An72 as well).

    As far as the il276, the only advantage is its commonality with the il(4)76. And I still believe that the il76 is a stopgap for Russia.
    Personally I would prefer a comeback of  Tu330  (and possibly of the yak-44).


    Before the coup in Ukraine, Antonov was a Russian-Ukrainian joint venture, in fact the aircraft industry of both countries was intertwined as a unit.
    When the Americans staged a coup d'état in 2014, they cut off this collaboration, of course, Ukraine finished producing aircraft forever, but it will take Russia more than a decade to recover and establish a closed cycle for the manufacture of components and aircraft in addition to forming a new generation of technicians and engineers

    For example, the replacement of the An-26/32 should be the An-132, the An-72 the new versions of An-74 produced in Kharkov, for the An-12 the An-178 and the An-70 would be manufactured it depends on the needs, given that the An-70 is the size and performance of the A-400M, which is the one ordered by Kazakhstan

    The IL-112 is a project taken on the fly that was wanted to be done in a hurry, but it is terrible, the plane weighs too much and cannot increase the payload, there are even versions of the An-74TK that can reach 10t of load of payment according to the specifications of the Ukrainians, I think that Iran has planes of these

    For aircraft with only 5t of payload, the market is dead, the C-295 reaches 9.5t although its hold is narrower and longer, the C-27 reaches 11.5t with a wider and shorter hold

    If Russia wins the war and annexes half of Ukraine, Kharkov could produce a new generation An-72/74 with new materials, there is even a version with engines under the wings instead of above
    Shoigu wants more An.72/74 for arctic conditions with higher payload. Up to 6 Navy An-72s have already been modified by increasing payload and MTOW

    In fact, I don't know if it is interesting to do away with propeller-driven light cargo planes, I really believe that the AN-72/74 is much better for Russian conditions, it has also proven to be very safe with a low rate of accidents
    I would seriously consider replacing the entire An-26 with An-74TK with a payload between 7.5 and 10t, a good range (up to 10t of fuel) and very safe.

    Look at the graph again, there is something wrong with the Il-112 if it can only carry half that of the C-27 or the C-295, even that some latest version of the An-72
    The only advantage is that the cargo hold has a higher ceiling, but I don't know why it is necessary in a light cargo plane.
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    Post  Robert.V Sun Oct 23, 2022 5:27 pm

    The  C-295 while can carry up to 7 tons with overload up to 9 tons.  It's almost useless  cargo compartment pretty much limits what size of cargo it can carry in those weight classes.


    As far as the Il-112 ?    From what I understood from a decade plus  saga it had thus far.

    Is that Ilyushin did years of R&D for it on paper while getting paid  while reporting false progress and obstacle's.   To the point that a lot of staff working on the project left.   And the R&D itself wasn't actually finished as when the  design begun to get digitized.  It became obvious,  the plane would be underpowered and overweight at that point.    The size and shape of the wing where also less then ideal apparently. And **** load of other issues.


    In the meantime the RuMoD remembered and noticed  it really  needs a  An-26 replacement.  Cue  Ilyushin rushing to show something in this case a not fully finished shell of a airframe.  The MoD not being amused sends  Rogozin Jr.

    From what I also understood  MoD also ended up raising the  payload requirements. Which  made the entire situation even worse.  

    As  it meant either  start from a scratch with a new design (Not an option) or    get even more powerful engines which is a problem also, there are non in this class.    And Klimov TV7-117ST are  close already to limit of power that can be gained from their design and dimensions at the moment.    

    Or even more  significant weight reduction!   Which is the only option.   If I recall correctly the aim is to reduce weight for the production IL-112  by 3000 kg.

    Who knows what the outcome will be.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sun Oct 23, 2022 6:02 pm

    Robert.V wrote:The  C-295 while can carry up to 7 tons with overload up to 9 tons.  It's almost useless  cargo compartment pretty much limits what size of cargo it can carry in those weight classes.


    As far as the Il-112 ?    From what I understood from a decade plus  saga it had thus far.

    Is that Ilyushin did years of R&D for it on paper while getting paid  while reporting false progress and obstacle's.   To the point that a lot of staff working on the project left.   And the R&D itself wasn't actually finished as when the  design begun to get digitized.  It became obvious,  the plane would be underpowered and overweight at that point.    The size and shape of the wing where also less then ideal apparently. And **** load of other issues.


    In the meantime the RuMoD remembered and noticed  it really  needs a  An-26 replacement.  Cue  Ilyushin rushing to show something in this case a not fully finished shell of a airframe.  The MoD not being amused sends  Rogozin Jr.

    From what I also understood  MoD also ended up raising the  payload requirements. Which  made the entire situation even worse.  

    As  it meant either  start from a scratch with a new design (Not an option) or    get even more powerful engines which is a problem also, there are non in this class.    And Klimov TV7-117ST are  close already to limit of power that can be gained from their design and dimensions at the moment.    

    Or even more  significant weight reduction!   Which is the only option.   If I recall correctly the aim is to reduce weight for the production IL-112  by 3000 kg.

    Who knows what the outcome will be.
    Maybe the easiest solution is really to produce improved An-32 as a stopgap and then start a new clean sheet design after combining proper good brain Power (including the russian Boeing engineers) .

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    Post  Robert.V Sun Oct 23, 2022 6:31 pm

    Don't know, perhaps, it's bit late for that. And the only viable option is to persevere with the Il-112. The only big question is what that weight reduction will be ? And in what areas will they try to cut the weight down to reach the 3000 kg reduction goal.

    Soviet planes especially cargo planes where generally heavier. But that was mostly due the conditions and the life time they where planned to be operated in. And of course actual rough-off the field landing capability. Unlike say western cargo planes. See the laughable joke that's A400M rough field landing trails.


    Russia still needs this requirements also. And I'm afraid the weight reduction will partially compromise that.

    I hope not of course. it's critical they salvage this entire mess. And have a proper replacement for the An-26.

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    Post  Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:30 am

    My plan and considerations

    For 5 tons: il-112v  Geran-140 - AN140new (Simorgh) Cooperation with Iran and China (Prop)

    Engines: Copy with 2 × Zhuzhou WoJiang-6C turboprop
    Design Team: HESA ! + Iljuschin
    Manufactur: Woronesch and HESA

    The war showed how important Iran became for Russia and how Loyal this country is towards Russia. Iran has a high science (see Patent registrations), a young society and has creative solutions. Iljuschin should help here but mainly focus on the other projects!

    ~ 240 Rus (1x per month and 12x year )  
    ~ 100 Iran

    IL-112v cancel. The AN-140 (New Name Geran-140) Is the better aircraft and offers all options for various tasks. To do this, it strengthens cooperation with Iran and thus also offers a larger pool of support.

    + First flight 2024 with new WoJiang-6C Engines
    + In series 2025


    For 15 tons:  An-148/158-PD-7

    Engines: PD-7 with ~ 80kN  
    Design Team: New Antonow Team in New Russia +  HESA !
    Manufactur: Kiew, Woronesch (Backup) and HESA

    People at Antonow also need work and a future. A good test whether and how it works.
    A second manufacturing road will of course be built in Russia (backup)

    ~ 240 Rus (1x per month and 12x year - Kiew 180 and Russia )  
    ~ 100 Iran

    + First flight 2028
    + In series 2030


    For 30 tons: Tu-330

    Engines: 2x PS-90A-76 with 142,2kN
    Design Team: Tupolev (Tu-204/214 Team)
    Manufactur: Kasan

    ~ 240 (1x per month and 12x year )  

    Should have a lot of components the same with the TU-214. Should also be built in the same work as the TU-214. But at least in a new hall.
    From 2032 with PD-14M we the TU-214 and IL-76

    + First flight 2026
    + In series 2028


    For 45 tons: SSJ-230

    Engines: 4x PD-10 with ~100kN
    Design Team: Suchoi Civil Aircraft
    Manufactur: SSJ Manufactur

    This aircraft should also be viewed as an AWACS platform, naval winner or long -distance transport aircraft.
    It should have many parts the same as the planned SSJ-1330R freight version. However, of course, a typical shoulder deck with 4 engines and landing lucks. Since Suchoi has capacities free after the SSJ-100/130, the team should be free.

    ~ 160 (0,5x per month and 6x year )  

    + First flight 2029
    + In series 2031


    For 60 tons: IL-76MD-PS90A

    Engines: 4x PS-90A-76
    Design Team:  Iljuschin
    Manufactur: Uljanowsk

    ~ 96 Rus (1x per month and 12x year on 2024)  

    + In Service 2014


    For 60 tons: IL-76-PD-14  

    Engines: 4x PD-14M
    Design Team: Iljuschin
    Manufactur: Uljanowsk

    ~ 240 Rus (1x per month and 12x year )  

    + First flight 2028
    + In series 2030


    For 80 tons: IL-76-PD-18

    IL-76-Exended with ~ 80 tons (4m more longer)
    4x PD-18
    Design Team: Iljuschin
    Manufactur: Uljanowsk

    ~ 90 Rus (0,5x per month and 6x year)  

    + First flight 2031
    + In series 2033


    For 120 tons: IL-124 - (AN-124)

    Engines: 4x PD-35
    Design Team: Iljuschin 
    Manufactur: Uljanowsk (New factory halls H2)

    ~ 60 Rus (0,25x per month and 3x year )  

    + First flight 2033
    + In series 2035


    For 180 tons:  IL-225 - (AN-225)

    Engines: 6x PD-35
    Design Team: Iljuschin 
    Manufactur: Uljanowsk (New factory halls H2)

    Iljuschin should strive for as many parts as possible here as with the IL-76 PD-18 and IL-124.

    ~ 40 Rus (2x year )  

    + First flight 2036
    + In series 2038


    In Total:
    Geran-140
    An-148/158-PD-7
    Tu-330  (priority)
    SSJ-230
    IL-76MD-PS90A
    IL-76MD-PD-14  (If Iljuschin has no capacity, postpone to 2034)
    IL-76MD-PD-18  (priority)
    IL-124   (priority)
    IL-225 (If Iljuschin has no capacity, postpone 2038)


    First flight Total
    First flight 2024
    First flight 2026
    First flight 2028
    First flight 2028
    First flight 2029
    First flight 2030
    First flight 2032
    First flight 2034

    Design Teams:
    HESA
    new Antonow
    SSJ
    Tupolew
    Iljuschin 

    New Engines:
    WoJiang-6C turboprop (Cpoy China)
    PD-7
    PD-10
    PD-14M  
    PD-18
    PD-35


    It is imperative to strive for cooperation with Iran and China. Otherwise this is not feasible!
    It is also imperative to strive for Antonow again with Motor Sh. to take on the boat after this was incorporated. PD-7 and PD-18 help may be possible here.

    Team Iljuschin must be taken out with IL-112 to take care of IL-76-PD14M and PD-18 (80tons) and the IL-124/IL-225 unit program!



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    Pic. new An140
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    Post  GarryB Mon Oct 24, 2022 11:26 am

    Going from 4 engines to two require a massive wing redesign and a recertification (not just an update of the certification).

    They designed the Il-106 in the 1990s for four engines so completing it now with four PS90 engines of 18 tons thrust should be easy and four engines is good enough for now for an aircraft in the 80 ton payload capacity whose current international competition would be the C-17 which is eye wateringly expensive to buy and to operate.

    The advantage of using the PD-35s revolves around being cheaper and simpler but doesn't really apply till they are ready so designing a new set of wings for the PD-35s when they are ready is no big deal... the existing wings should be fine for the PS90s.

    If you are in the design phase everything can be changed, of course taking into account of the impact on other parts and systems. Once the design is over, the development is finished and the aircraft is in production, the impact and cost of a change in design is much higher.

    So in the design phase adapt the current wing and layout to PS90s in 18 ton thrust performance and look at developing a new twin engine wing design for PD-35s for when they are ready.

    You are mixing a lot of things:

    In the first place, the USSR aeronautical industry was devastated in the 90s, when it began to recover, the coup in Ukraine came, which broke ties with the Ukrainian aeronautical industry, which was closely intertwined with the Russian one, therefore the ability to do more of what they are already doing, that is, rescuing Soviet-designed planes, and that is not going to change in the short term.

    I think you sound too keen to keep existing Soviets types in operation... the theme across the board for Russia is two pronged... upgrade existing stuff as far as it can be upgraded while in the background develop new from scratch designs with the fundamental faults removed, so we have T-72 upgrades and new model T-90s, but we also have the next generation systems Armata, Kurganets, Boomerang, Typhoon that separate crew from ammo and fuel and put them under the heaviest armour to best protect them.

    In the case of transport planes they are near the end of their lives, and building brand new old ones is probably more problematic than designing and building other types.

    Even if they could make An-12s and similar types it would be a mistake because Zelensky could end up in the UK as Kiev in exile and be a ratbag for the next 10 to 20 years demanding that third countries seize any Russian aircraft of Ukraine design (despite most were Soviet design)... look at the BS the US pulls getting Chinese CEOs arrested in Canada for breaking American laws... ridiculous.

    Do you think they are going to get better or get worse?

    There is a large potential market for new planes to replace old planes... even countries that use western planes are finding A400Ms and the new C-130s and especially the C-17s to be horrendously expensive to buy and to operate... some cheap C-17 equivalent which would essentially be an Il-106 would be very popular not just for the Russian military... if the smoke clear even HATO liked using Il-76s and An-124s when ever they could because they are good rugged aircraft that can operate from austere and rough places around the world.

    Second, if you want to rebuild the aircraft industry, as happens in shipbuilding, you have to start small and simple.

    Not simple... there is nothing simple about the new Russian corvettes... they are more multirole than Soviet cold war cruisers... their new corvettes can hit subs and ships and also land targets and aircraft.

    The new light planes they are developing really only have gaps in the L-410 and L-610 area, with the Il-112 and Il-114 filling important gaps, the only real space is the 20 ton payload spot currently held by the An-12.

    The return of the Tu-204/214 suggests the Tu-330 makes sense, and the idea of a shrunk down Il-476 meaning you could build factories to swap between production of the two types as needed sounds flexible and useful, and the numbers needed for both the 476 and 276 are only going to get bigger when they are opened up for export too.

    The smaller the plane the larger the numbers needed is a general rule of thumb so I really don't understand this talk of putting the An-124 into production because there are no engines for them right now and they are at the wrong end of the equation really.

    An An-22/C-17 is vastly more desirable as it will be cheaper to run and should be bought in greater numbers than the An-124 or Slon would be needed... so it makes economic sense to start making them first... the factories that were going to make more An-124s make sense because the Il-106 is very similar in layout and shape and design.

    .. however it maintains the great Soviet ships like Udaloy, Kirov and Kuznestov, all those fabulous imperial destroyer designs nuclear aircraft carriers are just commercial propaganda or justification for the salary of engineers in design offices, in addition to much sensationalism in the specialized defense press. Replacements will arrive after 2040

    It maintains those destroyer and cruiser sized cold war ships because it is not in any position to make brand new designs or even start them till the smaller ships are in serial production.

    The core difference is that corvettes and frigates are coastal home defence, so starting with them makes sense, but the air transport is in a different place... the big heavy transports are good for distribution but only from main centre to main centre... the detailed distribution to unit level is done by much smaller aircraft and they need lots of them.

    The Russian AF has large numbers of obsolete old transport planes and special function aircraft that all need to be replaced with something newer.

    Many roles they don't need to be state of the art super planes... Tu-214s will actually make rather good spy planes and communications planes and inflight refuelling planes for that matter (not carrier based obviously), and would probably do a good job replacing Tu-154Ms and Il-38s as well as Il-20 and Il-22 types too., but their transport fleet is very much an aging fleet that also needs replacing too.

    A lot of things are waiting for engines, so gaps are going to have to be accepted, but making new old planes does not make sense IMHO.

    For large aircraft they should keep the Soviet heritage going, while starting with the simple, like the Il-112 (which in my opinion is a flop before it starts).
    Getting this up and running will take years of testing and tweaking and only then will the level be raised.

    They are not going to be fighting in Africa or Central or South America any time soon... they need the smaller aircraft vastly more than they need a few more big aircraft that don't have obvious engine options ready to go.

    On the other hand, if you manufacture the Il-76MD-90A in the next 15-20 years and the useful life is 30-40 years, they will be in service until 2070 or more, so no more planes are needed.

    About the Il-276 is simply closed, Ru MoD dont have money or dont want it

    Interesting that one can be amazing and the other totally useless... sounds like a mistake.

    The Il-112 is a pure shit, has a bad It is badly planned from the root, nobody wants a plane with only 5 tons of cargo in the best of cases, the best is cancel or start with a diferent way

    You seem very fixated on payload weight... having 5 ton capacity does not make it worse than a plane that can carry 9 if they don't want 9 ton capacity because it can only fit two pallets which are limited to 2.5 tons each.

    Also flight range and field performance are important too... the specs for the C-17 on paper are amazing, long airframe hours and short rough field operations capacity... but as the Aussies found out... you can't have both. The long airframe life guarantee is null and void if you operate it from rough short airstrips.

    All of a sudden not so amazing, but still expensive.

    Cancelling just means starting from scratch which is the longest slowest option.

    Even in the case of try something like il-276 this will be after the Il-112 and this will take one more decade or more,

    They have been pissing around with this design with India for decades... the MTA needs someone to put a bomb under it and fund it properly to get results.... or if they have made a decision to go for the Tu-330 then go with that but do something... the An-12s are going to start crashing or being put out to pasture because their hours are up.

    Designing a new plane is not cheap, but using an An-124 to transport 2 tons of post 500km to the next airport down will make that designing cost look cheap.

    and An-12 replacement cannot wait for more time
    As I said, Russia must decide to purchase An-12 replacement to a foreing country or well try an Antonov replacement if can get the Antonov property after the war

    That comment alone tells me of your bias... Russian designers don't have time to get designs right and have to start from scratch but really the best solution in your opinion is to wait till the conflict in the Ukraine is over and sift through the ashes of what was Antonov and Motor Sich and then presumably build them up from near scratch and then start a design for a replacement... how the heck could that possibly be faster or easier or cheaper?

    It is just plain stupid.

    That plane from Brazil with two jet engines looks ideal but then selling them to the Russian military might kill any western sales they might get so I don't think they would be interested.

    BTW I looked up the Il-276 on wiki and it didn't say it was cancelled... it said it was approved and included a link to a news report:

    https://www.airdatanews.com/russia-approves-production-of-new-military-freighter-il-276/

    Begin flight testing in 2023 and first units delivered 2026...

    Kazhakstan
    is replacing An-26 (5 ton payload) with C-295 (9,5 ton payload)
    is replacing An-12 (21 ton payload) with A-400M (37 ton pauload)

    Uzbekistan is also replacing An-26 with C-295

    Well it is not like they are choosing these planes over Russian planes because there are currently no Russian planes in serial production to choose from.

    India that has An-32 has signed a huge contract for 56 C-295 and also is replacin Il-76 with C-17. And does not have An-12

    India will find those C-17s to be an enormous drain on their budget and when Russian alternatives become available they might change to them, but right now the C-17 is really the only game in town and it is terribly expensive.

    The only reason to start a light military cargo plane as Il-112 from zero is that the Russian government needs more than 200 such planes for various departments, not only the VKS and the Navy, but also the interior ministry, the border guard or the ministry of emergencies, in addition to small private companies that provide service on a regional scale in siberia or the arctic, the domestic market can exceed 300 units
    This amount justifies the project even if it does not export an

    The Russian experience with foreign designs suggests buying foreign planes is never a good idea unless you own copyrights to the design.

    the only person that wanted Il-276 is Shoigu, and now is very busy trying to win a war, the program was cancelles last year when the preparations for war began

    This information is not repeated anywhere else that I can find...

    Both the il112v and the il-276 are (in paper) subpar if compared with Aircrafts with similar size (both old and new aircrafts) and the il-112v prototype revealed itself to be overweight and with a wrong weight balance (so needing actually ballast on the front in order to be able to fly safely). It is true that some of this could be corrected. But again the question is: is it needed?

    If you were paying attention those problems were with the first prototype that were fixed on the next prototype... the only remaining problem seemed to be with the auto feathering system which failed and caused the crash, but that is an engine issue rather than a plane issue.

    Basically it loses in specs against the old An-26.
    Maybe if its characteristics were similar to the C-295 (which actually has less powerful engines it could be more appealing).

    They can improve it over time if that is necessary. Its design specs would be set by military requirements.

    Foreign aircraft, like Ukrainian aircraft are no longer an option.

    Furthermore Russia has already in development a nice aircraft of similar size to the il-112v, it is the TVRS-44 Ladoga. A cargo version of it could be interesting also for the military (even if probably it would be to narrow to fit some payloads).

    That is the Let-410 or 610 isn't it?

    But yes, I believe someone in Russia is already thinking about modernised An32 and An72 as a good fit for the need of VTA (and slightly derated PD8 would be a good fit for the An72 as well).

    Yes, always people looking backwards... but in the end they will need replacement anyway.

    As far as the il276, the only advantage is its commonality with the il(4)76. And I still believe that the il76 is a stopgap for Russia.

    The enormous advantage of the Il-276 is that it is a shorter narrower Il-476 with half the number of engines, which should be quick and easy to build and put into service and factories making it could switch between the two types as needed,

    An export market for aircraft with full engine and avionics commonality like that should be relatively good too.

    Personally I would prefer a comeback of Tu330 (and possibly of the yak-44).

    Agree with the Tu-330 with the airliner versions going into serial production for airlines because they could expand that to military replacements for the old airliners still in use and also work on the transport aircraft too, which with a 35 ton payload capacity should be more useful.

    When the Americans staged a coup d'état in 2014, they cut off this collaboration, of course, Ukraine finished producing aircraft forever, but it will take Russia more than a decade to recover and establish a closed cycle for the manufacture of components and aircraft in addition to forming a new generation of technicians and engineers

    The orcs were being pricks well before 2014, making themselves as annoying as they could.

    Russia is well shot of those pricks.

    For example, the replacement of the An-26/32 should be the An-132, the An-72 the new versions of An-74 produced in Kharkov, for the An-12 the An-178 and the An-70 would be manufactured it depends on the needs, given that the An-70 is the size and performance of the A-400M, which is the one ordered by Kazakhstan

    Most of the new Antonovs are slightly warmed over old Antonovs, I think you are overstating the talent that was there to be honest.


    The IL-112 is a project taken on the fly that was wanted to be done in a hurry, but it is terrible, the plane weighs too much and cannot increase the payload, there are even versions of the An-74TK that can reach 10t of load of payment according to the specifications of the Ukrainians, I think that Iran has planes of these

    You are comparing a turboprop with a jet.... and it is going to replace the An-26, Yak-40, and in interestingly also to replace the L-410... according to Wiki so that might be a mistake. Perhaps the L-610?


    If Russia wins the war and annexes half of Ukraine, Kharkov could produce a new generation An-72/74 with new materials, there is even a version with engines under the wings instead of above

    The version with under wing podded engines is because having the engines on top makes them a pain in the arse to work on because most stands and equipment are designed for underwing pods.

    Maybe the easiest solution is really to produce improved An-32 as a stopgap and then start a new clean sheet design after combining proper good brain Power (including the russian Boeing engineers)

    It is simply not going to be the case that Zelensky signs a surrender and all of a sudden Antonov pops up from the ground fully tooled up and with full staff all trained and ready to make planes, and Motor Sich et al also pop out of the wood work ready to make shit.

    Not going to happen.

    See the laughable joke that's A400M rough field landing trails.

    The C-17 is terrible in that regard too... the Aussies were forced to sign an agreement they would not operate theirs from short rough airstrips...

    My plan and considerations

    Antonov are dead... forget about them.

    Il-112 already fulfils the 5 ton capacity so no need for a foreign plane.

    15 ton requirement does not exist AFAIK.

    Your 30 ton suggestion makes sense.

    The 45 ton suggestion AFAIK does not exist and I think most are going to airlines rather than military for the next few years...

    60 tons is already in production... the Il-476... and a scaled down Il-276 should be made... shortening the fuselage and wings and halving the number of engines it should be the quickest and easiest new plane in your list.

    I also think four PS90 engines of 18 tons thrust on an An-124 airframe would be perfect to get an 80 payload capacity transport plane to take stress off the bigger model with the more powerful engines.

    Once the PD-35s are ready then I would be putting the Slon into service with four PD-33s and a half Slon with two for the 100 ton and 180 ton payload capacity ranges... it might be worth keeping the An-124s for a bit with the PS90 engines in the An-22 category... the less powerful engines should make them rather cheaper to operate but also provide a useful aircraft size... the large size of the aircraft should allow a higher fuel fraction to be carried for better flight range especially if inflight refuelling probes are added so it can take off light with the lower level of thrust and then take on more fuel once airborne to get excess range.

    You are also in error... an An-124 with four PD-35s would have almost as much engine thrust as the An-225 with six engines and would probably be a 180 ton capacity plane assuming the structure could carry that.

    The original An-225 with 6 engines of 24 tons thrust each had a total of 144 tons thrust, an An-225 replacement with 6 x PD-35 would have 210 tons thrust... to put that in perspective you could fit that to the 60 ton payload Il-476 with its MTOW of 210 and it could take off vertically.

    It is imperative to strive for cooperation with Iran and China

    I think cooperation with these two countries is also very important but let Antonovs lie... no raising zombies...



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    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:38 pm

    Yes, the An-140 is dead.
    The TVRS-44 Ladoga is the aircraft derived from the let-610 prototype (with also some parts previously used in the An-140, manufactured in Aviakor in Samara).
    It should have the same fuselage width than the An-140, so a little bit narrower than the il112v.
    Anyway the TVRS-44 Ladoga can probably substitute the Il-112 in most tasks (and the An140 in everything) and is fully Russian.


    As far as the il112v I would much more prefer the russian engineers to take all the lessons learnt from that project and design a brand new bigger aircraft on the 9-12 tons payload range.

    New generation turboprops in the 4000-5000hp power range (same as the Rolls-Royce AE-2100 of the C27J) are being developed anyway

    https://en.topcor.ru/15348-rossija-gotovitsja-k-sozdaniju-aviadvigatelja-novogo-pokolenija-pdv-4000.html

    https://tass-ru.turbopages.org/turbo/tass.ru/s/armiya-i-opk/9271731


    The first engine for aircraft and helicopters PDV-4000 will be assembled by 2025
    The UEC reported that a pre-design analysis had already been completed and the main characteristics of the latest engine had been determined
    August 24, 2020
    KUBINKA / Moscow region /, August 24. /TASS/. The first prototype of the promising PDV-4000 engine, which can be installed both on airplanes and helicopters, will be assembled by 2025. This was reported to TASS on Monday by the press service of the United Engine Corporation (UEC, part of the Rostec state corporation) at the Army-2020 forum.

    "According to preliminary estimates, the assembly of the first prototype of the promising PDV-4000 engine can be carried out by 2025 and directly depends on the start of development work," the corporation said.

    The press service clarified that a pre-design analysis has already been completed and the main characteristics of this latest engine have been determined. At present, the UEC is coordinating and refining the technical specifications with JSC Russian Helicopters and the aircraft version of the new generation engine with PJSC UAC.

    The power plant PDV-4000 is positioned as a new generation engine in the power class of 4000-5000 horsepower.

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