AK-12 Rifle Discussion

magnumcromagnon wrote:More modifications of the AK-12 on display and on the range:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

magnumcromagnon wrote:More modifications of the AK-12 on display and on the range:

Yay once more, the Izhmash way of competing is shown to the world. There are at least 4 more alterations than from previous shown models for the AK-12. I hope whoever allowed this farce up to this point is condemned to eat McDonald Blinis in hell.

I mean FFS just drop the AK-12 pretense, present the Mk-107-2/R and be done with the A545-S/AK 12 fiasco.

magnumcromagnon wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

magnumcromagnon wrote:More modifications of the AK-12 on display and on the range:

Yay once more, the Izhmash way of competing is shown to the world. There are at least 4 more alterations than from previous shown models for the AK-12. I hope whoever allowed this farce up to this point is condemned to eat McDonald Blinis in hell.

I mean FFS just drop the AK-12 pretense, present the Mk-107-2/R and be done with the A545-S/AK 12 fiasco.

Typical way of addressing core issues in a banana republic. It bodes so well for innovation and fair practice in Russia.

GarryB wrote:

Typical way of addressing core issues in a banana republic. It bodes so well for innovation and fair practice in Russia.

What are you cracking on about?

They are a private company that makes weapons... it is not their job to build one weapon and then shove that down the throat of all military units in Russia. It is their job to create as many different variations to suit as many different roles as they can. customised weapons for specific roles.... there is your innovation... and I have no idea what you mean by fair play... they are an arms company... not a soccer team.

Well development looks erratic compared to MSBS Radon development.

Remember, AK-200 fiasco.

I'm clearly adressing the fact that the limit for the weapon system is clearly overdue.

And this is clear by the way they submitted at least 5 iterations of their products and still couldn't get it done at once, having to rely on the Holy Spirit of the MoD lobbying to postpone decision, change the outcome and outright submit three different rifles in three different stages of competition. All this while ZID had two calibres ready to go. Khathi on MP.net had a very throrough description of the A-545S and tha one never changed.

Why is CK allowed to change their fvcking setup everytime their products doesn't seem able to win the damn race.

but for you to defend the shameless nepotism of MoD towards Izhmash, that's too much to take.

GarryB wrote:

Well development looks erratic compared to MSBS Radon development.

What looks from the outside chaotic might be very sensible and logical when actually looking from the inside.

Sure, like slapping a fvcking rail on the gas port. Beyond salvation.

Remember, AK-200 fiasco.

I don't know enough about the AK-200 to call it either way...

... http://survincity.com/2009/08/200-series-ak-look-to-the-2-sides/

I'm clearly adressing the fact that the limit for the weapon system is clearly overdue.

the pattern so far is for weapons improvements to begin with and then revolutionary from scratch designs later on when the technology is mastered.... based on that assumption it makes sense to see what we are currently seeing... all the weapon makers had similar submissions in the last competition and they all seem to be offering slightly modified slightly upgraded newer versions.

What pattern? They got a deadline, they had to submit a product and compete against another company. They weren't even tested from the get go. Nope they didn't. Izhmash had to submit a rifle by T-time, they didn't. Instead they crammed a freaking disgrace as a door-blocker and when it was clear they would lose, rumour had it that they slashed the unit price.

They actually didn't. All manufacturers had deadlines (and how funny team B Izhmash with the 107-2/R had no issue with their own rifle) only Team A Izhmash needed more time.

And this is clear by the way they submitted at least 5 iterations of their products and still couldn't get it done at once, having to rely on the Holy Spirit of the MoD lobbying to postpone decision, change the outcome and outright submit three different rifles in three different stages of competition. All this while ZID had two calibres ready to go. Khathi on MP.net had a very throrough description of the A-545S and tha one never changed.

Only an idiot would ignore feedback and just keep submitting the same product over and over... the fact that they are adapting their design based on feedback is a GOOD thing.

Heh, only an fool can see how a product that has 20 more years and has competed with what was seen as the Best then (Abakan program) and still has enough residual value to kick a bigger competitor to the ground 20 years later with a very small but crucial re-design that came prior to "feedback" and basically was clearly head AND shoulders (no that's not only a shampoo) time and again in the current race, to the point that the Izh-lobby is pulling all the stops not to lose. And we see the issue with BOTH rifles being adopted...or is that because that idiotic old product is useless.

Why is CK allowed to change their fvcking setup everytime their products doesn't seem able to win the damn race.

Only a moron would keep submitting something that is not meeting the clients requirements.

Problem is Izhmash isn't under contract, Izh is competing to win a contract (was).

but for you to defend the shameless nepotism of MoD towards Izhmash, that's too much to take.

This has nothing to do with fair... in a real war I rather doubt soldiers will care who made their rifle as long as it does what it is supposed to... and to be honest I rather like KBPs ADS, but for the moment I would rather they got something like the AK12 into service and replacing current rifles that don't allow scopes and new bits and pieces to be fitted and removed easily... all the other bits make it easier to use and handle which is good too, but with the Ratnik system they will need optics and the AK12 is the quickest and cheapest option at the moment... who cares if the AEK model hasn't changed much... why do you think that is a good thing... maybe they don't actually like their chances and don't want to spend too much money on a rifle they don't consider worth supporting...

The MoD is running the show...  they are the client... if they want to accept one rifle or ten it is up to them.

Sure, like slapping a fvcking rail on the gas port. Beyond salvation.

... http://survincity.com/2009/08/200-series-ak-look-to-the-2-sides/

What pattern? They got a deadline, they had to submit a product and compete against another company. They weren't even tested from the get go. Nope they didn't. Izhmash had to submit a rifle by T-time, they didn't. Instead they crammed a freaking disgrace as a door-blocker and when it was clear they would lose, rumour had it that they slashed the unit price.

They actually didn't. All manufacturers had deadlines (and how funny team B Izhmash with the 107-2/R had no issue with their own rifle) only Team A Izhmash needed more time.

to the point that the Izh-lobby is pulling all the stops not to lose. And we see the issue with BOTH rifles being adopted...or is that because that idiotic old product is useless.

This is so typical, the MOD were running the show with the Nikonov, they picked it over the 973. The AN-94 is all but a museum piece now. ZID is pretty confident on their product , as a matter of fact it was already the better finished product back in 1992, let alone now that they have solved the monobloc issues with the bolt.

Anyway, as I said, through corruption, nepotism and armtwisting. Only a fool would reject the basic disregard for tender procedure as "the MoD runs the show". Whatever...I've read enough.

GarryB wrote:

GarryB wrote:You seem to be taking this very personally...

Colt tried to get by on some very well known but also over priced items and they are filing for bankrupsy...

Sitting on your laurels bathing in the glory of products past is not good business.

You're barking at the wrong tree here. The one sitting on their laurels were Izhmash. Confer the AK200 fiasco.

GarryB wrote:

Sure, like slapping a fvcking rail on the gas port. Beyond salvation.

they are only putting rails on everything because the MoD demands easy attachment of optics and other components... why wouldn't they add rails?

Nope they were slapping rails because they needed a "halo" product and wanted something flashy over logic. All the people who deal with AK-style rifles know the DO's and DON'T of the said "platform". And no one starts putting ful length rails for the sake of it. It was total BS and people aren't stupid.

GarryB wrote:

... http://survincity.com/2009/08/200-series-ak-look-to-the-2-sides/

Is that translated from Russian... it is terrible...

You can find the article in Russian as well. However...some pictures do not need translation. The mechanical safety selector straight out of WW1...yeah rest and laurels...

What pattern? They got a deadline, they had to submit a product and compete against another company. They weren't even tested from the get go. Nope they didn't. Izhmash had to submit a rifle by T-time, they didn't. Instead they crammed a freaking disgrace as a door-blocker and when it was clear they would lose, rumour had it that they slashed the unit price.

Pattern of military demands for new equipment... demand and upgrade and a new from scratch model... ie Su-35 and MiG-35 and PAK FA, or T-90AM and Armata/Kurganets/Boomerang/Typhoon.

So they reduced the price.... damn... what were they thinking.... anyone less familiar with what bastards they are might think they could be a company trying to win an important contract...  

Eh eh...When the specifications are for a BMW you don't chose a KIA because it costs the third of the price. You simply might end up with three times more shit than with those BMW...The whole price issue is bogus if the rifle didn't met the expectations from start to end.

Furthermore this isn't a "new rifle". The Ratnik rifles are all evolutions (not even deep at that) of prior designs. They aren't 100K+ pieces of machinery. Nope they are 9 to 14 parts mechanical systems that need to have a superstructure allowing them to mount accessories. Don't pull the "from the scratch card". It just doesn't compute. Some designs are simply better. The AK-12 wasn't from the get-go. As they are a private company, they can sell their icon to the US and "not file for bankrupcy". Tis called capitalism for a reason, last time I checked;

They actually didn't. All manufacturers had deadlines (and how funny team B Izhmash with the 107-2/R had no issue with their own rifle) only Team A Izhmash needed more time.

Why not give them more time? It is not like the deadline given was sacred or of any significant other than the date that was picked.

Oh wow, why even implement Ratnik at all. I mean at some point, Izhmash and other such behemoths that plague big ambitious projects (XM1/F35 etc) will figure out the issues. Why the hurry. Are we talking like adults here or is there something else you want to say?

GarryB wrote:

to the point that the Izh-lobby is pulling all the stops not to lose. And we see the issue with BOTH rifles being adopted...or is that because that idiotic old product is useless.

Hahahahaha... and that would be the first time in history ever anywhere that a product has won a competition based politics or anything other than actual worth.

Finally, an aknowledgement about foul play. This was the point. The procurement fiascos, bis repetita, ad nauseam, end up delaying very profound changes LIKE with the AEK, who has had its gros-oeuvre ready for 20 years but has to deal with the insider competition. Look at the AK evolution from 74M/1XX/200/12 and look at some of the features...the AEK has those since 1992. Let it sink. The AEK isn't Betamax. It's the freaking Fiber Streaming competing with the Compact Disk.They were world's appart. It's only the specifications that are saving the AK. Even the damn muzzle brake from the old ZID 973 has been lifted for the AK12. Just look at both.

GarryB wrote:

This is so typical, the MOD were running the show with the Nikonov, they picked it over the 973. The AN-94 is all but a museum piece now. ZID is pretty confident on their product , as a matter of fact it was already the better finished product back in 1992, let alone now that they have solved the monobloc issues with the bolt.

They picked the Nikonov purely on accuracy and hit and kill probability. They ignored ease of use, maintainence and cost. They picked a dog.

Nope the Nikonov is a good rifle when taken care off. Simple. The AEK is a good rifle almost everytime. It's almost bombproof. And has some of the crucial redundancies of the AKM. And it shows. The AK-12 on its quest to become a "tighter shooter" is losing that "apocalypse-time" reliability at the expense of a clear but not dramatic gain in accuracy. And it isn't even after Izhmash as a whole that I'm ranting. Team B with the 107 is doeing a hell of a job. And IMO the 107 should be the compromise for the MoD.

GarryB wrote:

Anyway, as I said, through corruption, nepotism and armtwisting. Only a fool would reject the basic disregard for tender procedure as "the MoD runs the show". Whatever...I've read enough.

If the client doesn't care about shifting deadlines why should I?

their goal is not to be fair, their goal is to get the best performing rifle at the best price.

Being the most like a standard AK will reduce conversion training issues and improvements in ease of use will only make it a better rifle IMHO.

You're barking at the wrong tree here. The one sitting on their laurels were Izhmash. Confer the AK200 fiasco.

Nope they were slapping rails because they needed a "halo" product and wanted something flashy over logic.

All the people who deal with AK-style rifles know the DO's and DON'T of the said "platform".

And no one starts putting ful length rails for the sake of it. It was total BS and people aren't stupid.

You can find the article in Russian as well. However...some pictures do not need translation. The mechanical safety selector straight out of WW1...yeah rest and laurels...

The whole price issue is bogus if the rifle didn't met the expectations from start to end.

Furthermore this isn't a "new rifle". The Ratnik rifles are all evolutions (not even deep at that) of prior designs. They aren't 100K+ pieces of machinery. Nope they are 9 to 14 parts mechanical systems that need to have a superstructure allowing them to mount accessories. Don't pull the "from the scratch card". It just doesn't compute. Some designs are simply better. The AK-12 wasn't from the get-go. As they are a private company, they can sell their icon to the US and "not file for bankrupcy". Tis called capitalism for a reason, last time I checked;

Oh wow, why even implement Ratnik at all. I mean at some point, Izhmash and other such behemoths that plague big ambitious projects (XM1/F35 etc) will figure out the issues. Why the hurry. Are we talking like adults here or is there something else you want to say?

Finally, an aknowledgement about foul play. This was the point. The procurement fiascos, bis repetita, ad nauseam, end up delaying very profound changes LIKE with the AEK, who has had its gros-oeuvre ready for 20 years but has to deal with the insider competition.

Look at the AK evolution from 74M/1XX/200/12 and look at some of the features...the AEK has those since 1992. Let it sink. The AEK isn't Betamax. It's the freaking Fiber Streaming competing with the Compact Disk.They were world's appart. It's only the specifications that are saving the AK. Even the damn muzzle brake from the old ZID 973 has been lifted for the AK12. Just look at both.

Nope the Nikonov is a good rifle when taken care off.

And it isn't even after Izhmash as a whole that I'm ranting. Team B with the 107 is doeing a hell of a job. And IMO the 107 should be the compromise for the MoD.

Like the AN94? FFS just drop the pretense. The MoD wasn't a client, it was an aspiring client who was testing the waters.

Any real-world customer picks what fits "best" both in price and quality.

Here the customer is insisting to buy something that wasn't ready, is clearly behind and has issues delivering the things it promises. I don't know, but that looks to stupid to even claim that there isn't foul play.

Now like a standart AK? Yes, being most like a rifle that needs refreshment (at least) or even to be put in a museum (at worst) is the way to go...Progress etc. You're defending a burnt city.

GarryB wrote:

You're barking at the wrong tree here. The one sitting on their laurels were Izhmash. Confer the AK200 fiasco.

How can that be if they already had the 100 series upgrade and the balanced recoil 107/108 rifles in development too... they were improving and expanding the design types well enough IMHO.

Nope they were slapping rails because they needed a "halo" product and wanted something flashy over logic.

I hardly think full length rails are flashy.

All the people who deal with AK-style rifles know the DO's and DON'T of the said "platform".

Do you mean all the people who deal with AK style rifles except Concern Kalashnikov themselves?
Are you going to suggest they should learn something from US producers of AK rifles from components?

And no one starts putting ful length rails for the sake of it. It was total BS and people aren't stupid.

I don't understand this... one of the functions of the rails is the ability to mount optics in parallel so a night vision optic device mounted in front of day optics gives night vision without needing to rezero the rifle,so why would you not want full length rails at least on top?

You can find the article in Russian as well. However...some pictures do not need translation. The mechanical safety selector straight out of WW1...yeah rest and laurels...

So designs need to be new and distinctive whether they work or not?

OK, that is your opinion...

The whole price issue is bogus if the rifle didn't met the expectations from start to end.

If two weapons are good enough to do the job and one costs half the price of the other and is ready for mass production and the troops are already familiar with the design then why choose the hard path?

From what I have read the AEK is excellent in full auto in terms of holding on target, but it was my understanding that the push for accuracy in the Russian military will lead to a greater focus on optics and single shot target engagement.

Furthermore this isn't a "new rifle". The Ratnik rifles are all evolutions (not even deep at that) of prior designs. They aren't 100K+ pieces of machinery. Nope they are 9 to 14 parts mechanical systems that need to have a superstructure allowing them to mount accessories. Don't pull the "from the scratch card". It just doesn't compute. Some designs are simply better. The AK-12 wasn't from the get-go. As they are a private company, they can sell their icon to the US and "not file for bankrupcy". Tis called capitalism for a reason, last time I checked;

You aren't listening.

The military wants upgrades in the short term and from scratch designs in the longer term.

the rifles we are talking about are the upgrades... we haven't seen anything revolutionary yet... all are so far based on existing designs and therefore can be considered upgrades... even if the AK12 is an upgrade of the AK-74M and the competition is an upgrade of a rifle prototype that never entered service.

The from scratch designs will come later and may not use conventional ammo...

Oh wow, why even implement Ratnik at all. I mean at some point, Izhmash and other such behemoths that plague big ambitious projects (XM1/F35 etc) will figure out the issues. Why the hurry. Are we talking like adults here or is there something else you want to say?

The military seems happy with the AK-74... add the ability to easily attach scopes and they really don't need a brand new rifle. But they are being told that they need 70% to 100% all new gear by 2020. You can hardly compare the XM-1 or F-35 in any aspect of Ratnik... and the whole concept of Ratnik was totally needed... for a change the developers of kit for the Russia soldier now have to integrate their design into a design suite to make sure everything works but also works with everything else they have to use.

Ratnik does not depend on AK12 or any other new rifle... they are just potential future components.

Finally, an aknowledgement about foul play. This was the point. The procurement fiascos, bis repetita, ad nauseam, end up delaying very profound changes LIKE with the AEK, who has had its gros-oeuvre ready for 20 years but has to deal with the insider competition.[/qutoe]

Yeah and the Blue Streak missile was much better than Sergeant from the US and that super plane from Canada was going to be better than a MiG-31... what was it?  .. the Arrow or something.

Get over it.

Lol Typical, ok we cheated, but get over it...sounds like the Mafia..

If it is so wonderful then why not export it?

Which whose blessing? All orders from ZID have been for the Russian Security apparatus...

Look at the AK evolution from 74M/1XX/200/12 and look at some of the features...the AEK has those since 1992. Let it sink. The AEK isn't Betamax. It's the freaking Fiber Streaming competing with the Compact Disk.They were world's appart. It's only the specifications that are saving the AK. Even the damn muzzle brake from the old ZID 973 has been lifted for the AK12. Just look at both.

Now if the differences were that clear cut there would not be such an issue... if I have told you once, I have told you a thousands times not to exaggerate.

There is no exageration, that's what the AEK was compared to the 200. And it showed vs the various 12's. The rifle IS better. Much better.

There were balanced recoil rifles competing against the original AK-74... which was pretty much just an AKM adapted to a new lighter calibre. Most militaries are conservative by nature and to succeed you need to be significantly better... what does the balanced recoil AEK offer that is so wonderful except stability in full auto bursts?

I guess you don't read Russian military forums and hear how the A545 was far better from the get go. Militaries are conservative because they have different ways from the civilian world. Including systemic corruption. Especially from the old Sovok circles...

If full auto burst stability was so damn critical then why did CK modify the AK-74M and not the AK-107?

The 107-2/R was a different beast from the basic 107 (diopter sight included like the...A545). They even totally changed the 103 to submit to Ratnik...

Nope the Nikonov is a good rifle when taken care off.

Could say the same about the first model AR-15.

Which has nothing to do with the fact we're discussing. The merits of the Nikonov were taken at face value. The merits of the 12 are still to be found over its own competitor (107).

And it isn't even after Izhmash as a whole that I'm ranting. Team B with the 107 is doeing a hell of a job. And IMO the 107 should be the compromise for the MoD.

So it is balanced recoil mechanisms you are hot for?

I'm hot for those who have had better scores at evaluations...overall.

I personally think all the cosmetic modifications to make it easier to use make it (AK12) better... ie thumb controls for safety and the ability to choose which side the cocking handle is positioned, and the fact that the safety selector no longer exposes the guts of the rifle to the elements when off.

Lol unless you're kidding, that "exposure" hardly affects the damn ancestor (AK/AKM) because of the simplicity of its build. The 12 isn't better, it's just trying to get tighter and therefore isn't taking the strongpoints of the AK. It's just becoming a SiG at best or an RK/Galil at worst..

Like the AN94? FFS just drop the pretense. The MoD wasn't a client, it was an aspiring client who was testing the waters.

they don't NEED a brand new rifle... they are happy with the rifles they already have... of course they are happy to just test the waters... any urgency is purely political... they need to meet figures set for 2020 regarding new equipment quotents.

Oh well that's cool because none of the two winners are New...

Any real-world customer picks what fits "best" both in price and quality.

Most real world customers will find the products that meet their needs and then will shop hard to find the lowest price. Some wont care about price, but the vast majority will see it as the primary focus.

Yeah that's a given, unfortunately they won't try to have a new BMW for the Price of a KIA....so again. If your KIA costs 10K but has 100 pk when you need the double. You just wont buy it...

Here the customer is insisting to buy something that wasn't ready, is clearly behind and has issues delivering the things it promises. I don't know, but that looks to stupid to even claim that there isn't foul play.

Or it could be that they are largely happy with what they have and see no urgency to leap into anything right now.

If so why even hold Ratnik trials. Why even adopt both rifles...

Now like a standart AK? Yes, being most like a rifle that needs refreshment (at least) or even to be put in a museum (at worst) is the way to go...Progress etc. You're defending a burnt city.

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the AK-74. Funny how in the 1980s the SA-80 was claimed to be the best assault rifle in the world... till it got dusty. Then through most of the 90s and the 00s it was the G-36 that was the new super gun... and now its name is being dragged through the mud.

The G36 wasn't no supergun, The XM8 issues were blatant. The 36 was the perfect example of H&K lobbying so really, you're using it to muster what?

The AK just works, it is not pretentious, and nor does it claim to be a super weapon... the accuracy demands for the new rifle look like sniper rifle requirements... ridiculous...

Nope, achievable....That's why we're having this discussion.

BTW if it makes you feel better I think I feel the same about fighter aircraft that you feel about rifles... I personally think the Su-27 family is over rated and gets domestic and foreign orders via politics and unfounded reputation, while the MiG-29 team seem to actually work harder and have a rather more multirole vision. I am rather surprised the SMT didn't get rather more orders, but of course because most of the eastern european users changed camp and wanted old crappy F-16s instead of upgraded SMT MiGs you could say the bottom fell out of the market.

Again the 107 was basically just the balanced recoil without much else...the rifle wasn't even optimized for rails, neither was it specced for the new tender. It's the very reason why the 107-2 was being set up since 2010.

... Your statement doesn't address my point. The AK200 was a gimmick and a stillborn. It was an insult to the Russian armed forces.

But even in that case, the current MR modification is clearly inspired by FAb-Defense UAS (big Iz). The current AK-12 modular interface, insipred by Zenitco...(itself inspired from the tacticool mania am Westen).

Have you seen the first AK-12? I doubt it...

Did you really wrote that? FFS the damn Chinese find a solution for the damn selector, the Czechs did so. The Finns did so. The Swiss did so...and Izhmash comes with something out of WW1? While the selector part has been resolved since the late 50 at least...Even ZID has had a thumb selector flip since forever.

It's not an opinion, these are facts...

But i get the point now, CK can't do no wrong...

The AEK is more accurate than the AK on single...that was the last that transpired from the state trials...The AK has been totally refitted by now.

You got to make up your mind...on what the military wants. Does it want something that goes bang every time, with enough boxes ticked from the spec list? Yes...
Well the AK would not go bang as well as the AEK...SO who's not listening.

I don't think you understand the purpose or Ratnik...Ratnik isn't about TEH FUTURZ, it's about catching up with the perceived Western superiority and the miscues from Georgia...

The military isn't happy with the 74, since they're churning out mods for it...and the guys who need to "operate" pay a nifty sum to turn it into a russian military version of a ricer...

Until the MoD says differently...

Lol Typical, ok we cheated, but get over it...sounds like the Mafia..

Which whose blessing? All orders from ZID have been for the Russian Security apparatus...

If so why even hold Ratnik trials. Why even adopt both rifles...

The G36 wasn't no supergun, The XM8 issues were blatant. The 36 was the perfect example of H&K lobbying so really, you're using it to muster what?

CK has to design and build weapons for more than just the Russian Army... why focus development on just one design?

It makes sense for them to work on all their working prototypes/weapons and to promote them all to anyone even remotely interested... plus optimised for rails... are you joking?

That is like saying optimised for an under barrel grenade launcher.

Rails are added where needed, there is no need for optimisation or preparation.

You are right... how dare they develop a rifle that turns out to be unsuccessful... they should fold the company immediately and never make another firearm.

Show me a company that never fails and I will show you a company that never "does anything".

Clearly?

Now you are telling me what I have or have not seen... how about instead of mind reading you post photos.

How many times have you used their selector? WTF does it matter what it looks like... it doesn't matter if it looks like a cave art painting from 5 BC.

Does it work... that is all that matters. If company XYZ from Finland or the US makes something similar I don't give fk. Does it do the job.

The PAK FA has rubber tires... they copied that too you know... they didn't invent rubber tires BTW...

It's not an opinion, these are facts...

A statement without reliable sources that can be checked and actually back up the statement is an opinion.  Opinions are fine... seriously underrated by many of course.

yeah, of course... this is a freshmans term paper... the Russian military don't want the best product they can get... they just want something at a very specific arbitrary time... I am sure the troops will appreciate that... You got this rifle design because it was ready on time.

The AEK is more accurate than the AK on single...that was the last that transpired from the state trials...The AK has been totally refitted by now.

The AK was not the most accurate rifle when it was adopted, nor when it won again as the AK-74. It largely lost to the AN-94 because it was less accurate... and we know how well that turned out.

Most soldiers don't get 2 month courses learning to handle and maintain their rifle...

You got to make up your mind...on what the military wants. Does it want something that goes bang every time, with enough boxes ticked from the spec list? Yes...
Well the AK would not go bang as well as the AEK...SO who's not listening.

The AK-74Mx will go bang as well as the AEK and if the AK12 is not good enough then just upgrading in stock AKs is much cheaper than adopting a new rifle design and introducing new training and support for a different design.

Ratnik is about integrating all of the equipment, sensors, and equipment for soldiers so everything works together and duplication can be minimised. It is a totally new design paradyme... upgrading everything at once. ie the new night vision monocular can be used with a headset as NVG, or hand held or mounted on the rifles rail in front of a zeroed day optic to allow night shooting.

If they weren't happy with the 74 why would they be prepared to wait for the AK12... why not just introduce the AEK? It sounds so wonderful.. why not? They already picked the AN-94 over the AK, why not do that again?

Until the MoD says differently...

So exported Ratnik you will have to buy AEK or AK12?

BS.

Ratnik has already been shown with AK-74 and AN-94 and AK-107... there is no reason why it could not be adapted for any rifle.

Lol Typical, ok we cheated, but get over it...sounds like the Mafia..

Deadline extensions are not cheating.

Which whose blessing? All orders from ZID have been for the Russian Security apparatus...

What are you talking about? They have an export company called rosoboronexport for exporting products for the military...  If Antei-Almaz can export SA-12s then I am sure ZID can export some rifles.

I told you... the political leadership of the country have set the goal of 70% NEW kit by 2020 and all new all Russian kit some time after that.

The Ratnik trials were to select weapons compatible with the Ratnik system... it has nothing to do with whether either rifle gets introduced into the Russian military.

The G36 wasn't no supergun, The XM8 issues were blatant. The 36 was the perfect example of H&K lobbying so really, you're using it to muster what?

The only test that matters is war and the two western "superguns" I mentioned both failed that test.

Regular wrote:What's wrong with G36s again? Accuracy problems, overheating, barrel life? Only used G36 for by the end of my service, only thing that bothered me was fogging sights in certain temperatures. Now we have G36 with rails and iron sights for that reason. Weapon itself is very accurate, light, easy to maintain, has AK reliability. Compared to M-16, AK-4, AKM it felt like super rifle to me

Which armed forces has contracted Izhmash for a completely new set of small arms? Yes NO country.

I just said that OTHER guys (and even other Russian weapon makers) had a solution for the damn selector? How come Izhmash comes up with a mockery?

Yeah clearly, you don't want to admit it, that's your biz.

Does it work? Irrelevant. That is not a "selector" it's a external contraption that's the tree hiding the forest of total lack of innovation or update.

The issue is when a Soviet design bureau from the 50's has a selector and that Izhevsk doesn't seem to find that suitable...

"Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit"...

That the Chinese the Czechoslovaks and others have solved the selector issue since 60+ years is a fact. You go tiger disprove that one.

The troops had to do with bolt-action rifles and SKS's for a freaking decade because the initial AK wasn't all that what is was supposed to be...

How did it turn out. The 74 lost then, lost again now. To be somewhat relevant the 74 and 12 need contraptions, rails and a whole review of the mechanism, thereby mostly nullifying the very reasons for the 74's popularity that are rusticity and simplicity of use. The tighter the 12 gets, the more complex it becomes. The more complex the less reliable. Therefore we're going towards a PITA by group-thinking.

Who says so? Is it the Mod?

Problem is that you need a compatible war materiel. Having a super optronic suite but a rifle that shoots like it was 1946 basically negates the whole paradigm.

And even is the AK-12 doesn't provide such a level of performance, the MOD's preferences for Izhmash will force a huge part of the assembly of the A545 in Izhevsk, because ZID is really tiny.

Ratnik will not be exported as it is...

Trials are there for that. You are confusing PR and Trials for compatibility and convergence of results.

Trial extensions and specifications changed are rigging the race and forcing an outcome.

Thanks for saying that the initial AK-12 wasn't compatible for Ratnik.

KoTeMoRe wrote:

Regular wrote:What's wrong with G36s again? Accuracy problems, overheating, barrel life? Only used G36 for by the end of my service, only thing that bothered me was fogging sights in certain temperatures. Now we have G36 with rails and iron sights for that reason. Weapon itself is very accurate, light, easy to maintain, has AK reliability. Compared to M-16, AK-4, AKM it felt like super rifle to me

It has barrel-life, overheating and generally an abysmal price-tag for the service. Other superguns have had real-world issues just like the 36. starting with the Stoner 63 and the Sig 510-3/4 family. Wonderful weapons in theory but failures on the ground.

Regular wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

Regular wrote:What's wrong with G36s again? Accuracy problems, overheating, barrel life? Only used G36 for by the end of my service, only thing that bothered me was fogging sights in certain temperatures. Now we have G36 with rails and iron sights for that reason. Weapon itself is very accurate, light, easy to maintain, has AK reliability. Compared to M-16, AK-4, AKM it felt like super rifle to me

It has barrel-life, overheating and generally an abysmal price-tag for the service. Other superguns have had real-world issues just like the 36. starting with the Stoner 63 and the Sig 510-3/4 family. Wonderful weapons in theory but failures on the ground.

Well my experience with G36 was very limited so can't say anything bad about barrel life and overheating. Seems to be easy manufacturing fix, I wonder why it was only noticed quite recently? Must say something about Bundeswehr, probably guys don't have chance to overheat weapons

By the way, thanks for update Garry! Haha handguard is bit different. But yeah AK-12 is getting there, slowly but surely!

Which armed forces contracted Armalyte for the AR-15 or AR-10 for that matter?

The Russian military is on the lookout for new weapons to replace weapons and equipment developed during the Soviet period... most arms makers are looking to upgrade existing products and develop new ones.

Their selector is unsatisfactory? Does it not select? Why not complain about the trigger... surely there are muskets with triggers of the same design...

Not clear to me. Which means by definition clearly is clearly the wrong word to use...  

Does it work? Irrelevant. That is not a "selector" it's a external contraption that's the tree hiding the forest of total lack of innovation or update.

So a selector that looks cutting edge is more important than one that looks old but actually works... do you work in marketing?

The issue is when a Soviet design bureau from the 50's has a selector and that Izhevsk doesn't seem to find that suitable...

There were an enormous number of prototypes for the original AK... including a model with separate upper and lower components, and ones with the cocking handle and safety on the left side for ease of use for a right handed shooter.

"Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit"...

That the Chinese the Czechoslovaks and others have solved the selector issue since 60+ years is a fact. You go tiger disprove that one.

I mean it is not exactly the speed of sound issue that was solved with jet engines and shaping of the body of the aircraft and wing sweep and tailerons...

The troops had to do with bolt-action rifles and SKS's for a freaking decade because the initial AK wasn't all that what is was supposed to be...

Well lets be honest here and point the finger at Soviet production levels that could not produce the AK in its original stamped form, which lead to a reversion back to machine cut receivers until their technology got to the point where they could make stamped receivers that were easy to produce in numbers... and called AKM in the west.

How did it turn out. The 74 lost then, lost again now. To be somewhat relevant the 74 and 12 need contraptions, rails and a whole review of the mechanism, thereby mostly nullifying the very reasons for the 74's popularity that are rusticity and simplicity of use. The tighter the 12 gets, the more complex it becomes. The more complex the less reliable. Therefore we're going towards a PITA by group-thinking.

Yet the AEK achieves AR level accuracy with loose tolerances? Or do tolerances not matter in AEK rifles?

The basic mechanism is just fine... it just needs a few little tweaks here and there to get the required performance...


Mod as in modification, or Mod as in moderator?

I don't ban for people having their own opinions and I certainly don't ban people for not thinking the way I do about anything.

Keep it civil and follow the rules and you can have no fear I will use my position as a mod against you.

I am just chatting about things that interest me... I am not here for an argument.

Actually having a sniper rifle is pointless if you equip with MG ammo. Having a super optronic suite means you can find targets for the battle management net centric stuff... if you are on one hill side and the enemy is on the other... 3km away then no manner of rifle will help you... especially in 5.45mm calibre, but take a photo and email it to HQ and they might send in some 120mm mortar rounds with laser seekers on them... lase the enemy and get the job done with one round, or just pass the target data to the vehicle you operate with and let it spray the other hillside with 30mm or 125mm HE.

And even is the AK-12 doesn't provide such a level of performance, the MOD's preferences for Izhmash will force a huge part of the assembly of the A545 in Izhevsk, because ZID is really tiny.

So everyone wins... what is the problem? If Izhmash is going to be making A545 because ZID is so small why not make them make only A545 if it is so wonderful? Perhaps it is not as wonderful as everyone suggests....

Ratnik will not be exported as it is...

Trials are there for that. You are confusing PR and Trials for compatibility and convergence of results.

Export versions of Ratnik wont demand the customer uses AK12 or AEK... though they might make them options, it is rather more likely the customer will decide on a wide range of options both with Ratnik and the weapons used with it.

Trial extensions and specifications changed are rigging the race and forcing an outcome.

Thanks for saying that the initial AK-12 wasn't compatible for Ratnik.

Why do you take that from what I said?

Before it is tested no new rifle was compatible with Ratnik.

Well it is true, Bundeswehr shoots rarely and wth limited amount of Ammunition but the biggest problem is Lobbyism by HK and Lobbyists within Bundeswehr for rapid NATO standardization of a weapon with NATO calibre. Biggest mistake to use subpar standards of US (NATO) on so many levels.

Who spoke about "other customers for CK"? You did, yet there are none "other customers" for the current WIP AK-rifle range.

... I'm telling you that a serial selctor for small arms is available since the freaking 50's you speak in tongues. Stop beating around the bush.

You haven't explained the "selector issue". What is wrong with the selector on the AK12? Huhu...there is nothing wrong with the AK-12 current selector (albeit it'z just a less refined solution based on the Vz58/Galil vertical pin. Yay for Izhmash catching up with the 50's and 70's one prototype (year) at a time.

Yeah too bad the Siminov's had the same issues when it came to Soviet technology, yet the SKS was prototyped almost immediately with a detachable magazine...the Chinese tried to RE it and called that pig a type 63.

Huehue. I don't get this spin. I'm saying that the AK can't be better if you shave those attributes that made it an AK.But it can still be an AK with Soviet/Russian ingenuity like the Balanced Action.

MoD as in Ministry of Defense. I don't attack you personally.

I went overboard for a simple issue. The Russian MIC is no better than the US one. The AK-12 saga is testament to that.

The point is that all components of the Ratnik have to be on the same league. Period.

Because many issues, nepotism, monolithical and sclerosed thinking among them. The fact Izh has filed for bankrupcy is testament to the ineptitude of the past leadership. Pork barreling them will only result in one think. The repeat of the 90's. You can't trust Izhmash with anything....

Which means little.

Again means little, Ratnik will have to integrate a lot more in order to become effective. Countries will have to order a full complement of Russia's tools to make it even workable...

You say forcing an outcome, but I would say allowing an outcome. Demanding arbitrary deadlines be met would be forcing an outcome.

Nope, when my client asks me a deadline, I give him a deadline. Crossing it means a penalty. Guess what, it works like that in the real world.

Cyrus the great wrote:I would have loved to have seen an HK416 type magwell on the AK-12, a mag release button, a bolt-lock button and an SRVV jet-brake as standard. Instead of shortening the sight radius by moving the front iron sights back to the gas-block, why wasn't the option to remove the front iron sights [when needed] included?  I don't like the fact that the stock is so far below the optic section.

This was apparently done because the dust-cover wasn't optimized for mounting optics on it, so it was strengthened -- making it larger and higher in relation to the stock. I still prefer the side-mounted rails over anything as a solution to this problem with the Zenit rails coming second. If any AK variant ever got an AR type magwell, a bolt-lock button and a mag-release button, I would love a modernised side-mount that didn't prevent the use of these features.


The AK-12's internals have been lightened to reduce recoil and increase accuracy, but won't this heat up the gun quicker in full-auto? Would the lightened internals make it more difficult to increase the cyclic rate of fire to 850-900 if a country specified such a high rate of fire? Lastly, would a cyclic increase in automatic fire have an effect on semi-automatic fire in terms of recoil?