AK-12 Rifle Discussion

Another aspect is that the Russian Army is known to be looking at UAVs that can deliver equipment, food, ammo etc to the battlefield, so when you are low on ammo you can request some ammo and a UAV will fly to the general vicinity of your unit and release a glider that can carry 25kgs of stuff silently directly to your units coordinates... other UCAVs could be called at the same time to deliver smoke rockets to cover, or HE rockets to make the enemy keep their heads down during the delivery.

With larger UAVs come more options... that tiny two man helicopter that they are going to make into a UAV offers the potential to deliver fuel and food and ammo or support weapons to the front line and to take up to two injured back for treatment... without risking pilots.

Question: why not bullpups

Bullpups have lots of useful features, including a very compact weapon with a long barrel that doesn't need any preparation for use (ie stock extended or unfolded).

The balance is different however and reloading is not the same.

The brief for the AK12 was basically to take the AK design as far as it possibly could with all the real and perceived weaknesses dealt with... the AK12 is the Su-35S, or the T-90AM of the rifle world.

The next rifle family might be rather more radical and will be designed from scratch.

The ADS looks to be a very good rifle, but the AK12 also seems to be a good rifle too.

It is a bit like the qwerty keyboard in front of you... it was designed when typewriters were mechanical and it was designed to slow down the typist because if two keys were pressed close together the mechanical arms could lock and the typist would have to waste precious time fixing it.

With electronic keyboards and buffer memory this is now irrelevant and keyboards can be designed to be much faster instead of slower, but who wants to train their own pool of typists?

Who wants to front up with the cost of the new custom keyboards?

Despite clear long term improvements in speed and performance no one wants to take that leap on their own till they have to.

collegeboy16 wrote:Question: why not bullpups

Ask US military same question

Some don't like the balance of the Bullpups as the weight tends to be to the rear closer to your shoulder, though it makes the muzzle lighter and quicker to point.

The Soviets/Russians have had bullpup designs for a very long time... they have had all sorts of weapons that were previously rejected for more conservative designs in the 1990s they went forward with the Groza because they found that with optics and a grenade launcher a standard rifle becomes very front heavy, while a bullpup can be much better balanced around the pistol grip... even with supressors and grenade launchers and sights fitted.



As shown in the above photo the ADS is the same length as an AK12 carbine with its stock folded, yet has a longer barrel and therefore is more compact in operation (as the AK12 carbine would need its stock extended to actually be used properly).



As can be seen from the above picture they had bullpups competing as prototypes since WWII (1944) and likely before...

My favourite of the old ones has to be this:



Triple barrels/mechanisms/mags... 90 rounds ready to fire...

I was wondering how would it feel to shoot this three barrelled monstrosity. And what would be the bullet trajectories in let's say, 100 metres if shot simultaneously
Soviet Union had so many radical and futuristic weapon projects, but it didn't pass through stubborn officials. It's sad in one way, but it's the reality of big armies.

I was wondering how would it feel to shoot this three barrelled monstrosity. And what would be the bullet trajectories in let's say, 100 metres if shot simultaneously

Its weight and mild cartridge should have made it controllable... being a bullpup its barrel length was long compared with its calibre so in terms of accuracy it would probably be comparable to an RPK, though with perhaps triple its rate of fire.

Soviet Union had so many radical and futuristic weapon projects, but it didn't pass through stubborn officials. It's sad in one way, but it's the reality of big armies.

So true... this weapon looked interesting too:



It used bakelite because when it was invented plastic didn't exist...

GarryB wrote:Bullpups have lots of useful features, including a very compact weapon with a long barrel that doesn't need any preparation for use (ie stock extended or unfolded).

The balance is different however and reloading is not the same.

The brief for the AK12 was basically to take the AK design as far as it possibly could with all the real and perceived weaknesses dealt with... the AK12 is the Su-35S, or the T-90AM of the rifle world.

The next rifle family might be rather more radical and will be designed from scratch.

The ADS looks to be a very good rifle, but the AK12 also seems to be a good rifle too.

It is a bit like the qwerty keyboard in front of you... it was designed when typewriters were mechanical and it was designed to slow down the typist because if two keys were pressed close together the mechanical arms could lock and the typist would have to waste precious time fixing it.

With electronic keyboards and buffer memory this is now irrelevant and keyboards can be designed to be much faster instead of slower, but who wants to train their own pool of typists?

Who wants to front up with the cost of the new custom keyboards?

Despite clear long term improvements in speed and performance no one wants to take that leap on their own till they have to.

You are very right. I see no reason to buy the AK12 when they have milions of AK74M´s, AK12 is not so much different. Better to wait and field an entirerly new weapon with caseless ammo, no heavy bolt, modern materials, and intelligent electronic sights.
And another drawback with bullpup weapons, they make the users lose hearing, as your ear is next to the chamber..

However, on 23 September 2013, the Russian Government revealed the AK-12 will not be adopted or even undergo state tests due to shortcomings in preliminary tests.

The noise from a gun does not come from the Chamber... it comes from the muzzle mostly.

There are lots of noises made by a firearm in operation... the two main noises are the gas blast from the supersonic gas blasting past the projectile as it leaves the muzzle... this makes a loud bang that can be heard over great distances and is often dealt with using a suppressor. The other loud noise is the sharp crack created by the projectile as it moves through the air at supersonic speeds and this sound is continuously generated by the projectile until its speed drops down to subsonic speed which can be several hundred metres.

The mechanical noise of the rifle parts cycling are negligible in comparison and there is no noise directly from the chamber during firing... otherwise suppressors and silencers wouldn't work to make rifles quiet.

Do you have a source to say the AK12 will not be adopted, because the last report I heard was that Ratnik was delayed to 2014 so that the AK12 could be included as part of the system.

In other news the ADS has been officially adopted by the Russian Navy and has performed very well in recent exercises where it was tested.

http://en.ria.ru/military_news/20131022/184300872/Russian-Commandos-to-Adopt-New-Underwater-Assault-Rifles.html

Both Tsniitochmash and Tskib Soo have updated their websites:

Tsniitochmash : http://www.tsniitochmash.ru/

Tskib Soo: http://www.tulatskib.ru/

It is not about decibels. The concern is that despite wearing the best hearing protection in the world, hearing loss can still occur when shooting a bullpup due to the claim that there is intensified vibration being tranferred through the face of the shooter at the point of cheekweld. This is purportedly resulting in damage to the small bones in your ears and hearing loss.

I heard of a study that factored in long term costs of hearing damage caused by bullpups versus normal rifles and extra costs were large enough to negate any chance of bullpups being used in US military.

Can't believe they canceled AK-12. Hope it doesn't hurt Kalashnikov company. Army is being too fussy and their are acting like a virgin.
It's getting old. From uniforms to pistols. If they continue their short sighted trend they will do serious damage to weapon industry.

Regular wrote:Can't believe they canceled AK-12. Hope it doesn't hurt Kalashnikov company. Army is being too fussy and their are acting like a virgin.
It's getting old. From uniforms to pistols. If they continue their short sighted trend they will do serious damage to weapon industry.

Is there even any article on this? If it was the case, mp.net would be flooded with posts regarding this. So far, haven't seen anything in news either.

Kalash will be fine as they got a pretty bug contract for missiles, as well as small arms for other sectors. As well, they deal with the upgrade to AK-74M. But my bet it is hot air and they will continue on with tests and probably small rate production.

Sounds like the US M16 mafia are working hard to keep bullpup designs out....

The vibrations from the chamber of any rifle... bullpup or conventional will travel the length and width of any rifle in a fraction of a second and whether you have your ear pressed up against the chamber or the buttstock the vibration level will be rather more effected by the type of round being fired than the position of the ear.

The 5.56 x 45mm has about 30% more recoil than the 5.45 x 39mm.

Steyr AUG rifles and Enfield SA-80 rifles have been in service for decades... vibrations don't lead to deafness... decibels do and the decibels don't come from the chamber of a rifle... they come from the muzzle.

Can't believe they canceled AK-12. Hope it doesn't hurt Kalashnikov company. Army is being too fussy and their are acting like a virgin.

No disrespect to Runaway, but I would like to see the original article before I believe the AK12 is cancelled.

I suspect this is a case of old news from the first trials being revisited.

As well, they deal with the upgrade to AK-74M. But my bet it is hot air and they will continue on with tests and probably small rate production.

Agree, I think they will be working hard on the modular AK12SN for the Russian special forces... and possibly Indian military too, and then they will start producing small batches of the standard weapons to be issued with the Ratnik sets as they are produced.

All the talk about the new Kalashnikov company includes talk about making their own ammo from small arms up to cannon calibres so I rather suspect a new HMG/cannon calibre anti material rifle could be in development too... a hybrid 23 x 115mm and 14.5 x 114mm rifle would be rather interesting, and with new ammo... imagine SLAP ammo in both calibres with a smoothbore barrel...

I also suspect any new 338 LM cartridge and any new 12.7 x 108mm sniper rounds in addition to 12.7 x 55mm and other rounds might be mass produced by Kalashnikov... and perhaps also research into guided projectiles might be considered too.

Now that they are looking at extended range sniping and shooting (which hasn't been  a focus in the past) then ultra long range weapons will become rather more interesting to them.

Also SLAP rounds in both calibres would probably be the most effective wide spread solution to MRAPs.

As I mentioned in another thread SLAP rounds for 14.5mm calibre weapons makes no sense when the standard weapon using them is a HMG with a single belt feed. A small calibre high velocity penetrating projectile in a SLAP round will have a totally different trajectory to a standard ball round or HE round so in a belt feed with say every 3 rounds being 2 HE and one SLAP the two HE will hit point of aim and the SLAP round will go very high and hit nothing.

With an anti material rifle however you can have a scope with a ballistic calculator set up for the different rounds so you set it for SLAP rounds and lase the target and a lit dot appears where the round will hit at that range... you place that dot on the targets centre of mass and fire with a good chance of a hit assuming no wind. Obviously for a very long range shot you allow for the wind though a very high velocity SLAP round spends less time in the air so is less effected by wind than a slower round.
If the target is a fuel tank then a HE round can be loaded and the scope adapted to the new trajectory and the same procedure used to get a hit.

A group of enemy aircraft parked on an airfield 2km away, you could fire a few SLAP rounds to puncture fuel tanks and then fire a HEI round to set it all on fire, or you might simply shoot down a row of expensive 5th gen fighters putting a single round through the cockpit area or the radar or the engine...

Or if there is ordinance on the field hit an unfused HE bomb on a gorund rack with a HEI round to try to set it off...

Only this link leads to claims on wikipedia
http://izh.kp.ru/online/news/1543298/

http://en.ria.ru/military_news/20131020/184248906/Russian-Military-to-Adopt-Future-Soldier-Gear-in-2014.html

MOSCOW, October 20 (RIA Novosti) – The Russian Defense Ministry will start mass purchases of domestically designed “future soldier” gear in 2014, Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu said.

The gear, dubbed Ratnik, comprises more than 40 components, including firearms, body armor and optical, communication and navigation devices, as well as life support and power supply systems, and even knee and elbow pads.

The equipment can be used by regular infantry, rocket launcher operators, machine gunners, drivers and scouts.

“We have practically finished work on the Ratnik gear and will start purchases of series-produced equipment for our army next year,” Shoigu told reporters on Saturday.

The Ratnik gear has been successfully tested by the Russian military but is adoption into service has been delayed due to uncertainty with the choice of small arms component, which is likely to include the new Kalashnikov AK-12 assault rifle.

Many other nations have similar future soldier equipment programs in progress, including the U.S. Land Warrior, Germany's IdZ, Britain's FIST, Spain's COMFUT, Sweden's IMESS and France's FELIN.

There is uncertainty, but I rather suspect they wont want to keep using modified AK-74s forever.

I think the only thing that will stop them adopting the AK12 next year will be the AK-14 which will be a super bullpup EM pulse weapon with bells and whistles and deadly to 2km.

GarryB wrote:
Steyr AUG rifles and Enfield SA-80 rifles have been in service for decades... vibrations don't lead to deafness... decibels do and the decibels don't come from the chamber of a rifle... they come from the muzzle.

And the muzzle is much closer the ear on a bullpup, hence damage both from decibel and vibrations. Even so bullpup is close range weapons, as are 5,45-5,56. Recent conflicts have shown need to range= 7.62.
I don´t like bullpup as you see, trigger is bad on all because of basic design, and magazine change is lousy.
Ok, we go for Gary´s AK-14!
Here´s something about the FA-MAS.

I first reported rumors that the French would be replacing the FAMAS rifle back in 2009. During a recent meeting with the Commission of Defense, the French CEMAT (Chef d’Etat Major de l’Armée de Terre / Chief of Staff of the Army), General Ract Madoux, confirmed that the French Army would issue a RFP (Request For Proposals) in 2013 for a replacement service rifle for the French Army.
FAMAS G2

The French FAMAS rifle has been a disaster. Its delayed blowback action is powerful enough to rip apart regular NATO brass-cased 5.56x45mm cases and its rifling does not stabilize the modern 5.56mm NATO bullets. The French Army is forced to use steel cased 5.56mm ammunition, thus eliminating the advantages of using the same cartridge as their NATO and EU allies. It that was not bad enough, the ammunition is no longer made in France and has ben to imported. A French journalist told me that China manufactures steel-cased 5.56mm for French military (I will say that another French journalist I spoke to disputes that ammunition is imported from China).

Famas is weapon of the past anyways. France will be adopting H&K 416 with FELIN optics.

AK-12 is in Battlefield 4.

Would be funny if Russia ordered another weapon a month after the game came out.

TR1 wrote:AK-12 is in Battlefield 4.

Would be funny if Russia ordered another weapon a month after the game came out.

That has happened a lot in games. Especially in the last few years, because they half-ass their research into Russian military developments.

Actually BF3 did great job with Russian weapons, camouflage, voice over. BF4 on other hand will be disappointing in these regards

Regular wrote:Actually BF3 did great job with Russian weapons, camouflage, voice over. BF4 on other hand will be disappointing in these regards

It's just BF3 updated anyways.


I liked the sounds in Bad Company 2 the best, war tapes sounded amazing.

And the muzzle is much closer the ear on a bullpup, hence damage both from decibel and vibrations.

Distance is very important for sound but also barrel length is critical too.

Vibration means nothing in terms of hearing loss.

If a bullpup like ADS is bad for your hearing then the AKS-74U would be ten times worse as its short barrel means it is both closer to the shooters ear but also much louder to fire as there is so much unburnt powder when the projectile leaves the barrel.

Even so bullpup is close range weapons, as are 5,45-5,56. Recent conflicts have shown need to range= 7.62.

In the mountains of Afghanistan it was found that range is more important... if the next war is in a jungle then those 7.62mm rifles are going to be very heavy to carry around and so is the ammo... what you really need is a modular multicalibre weapon... like the AK12SN...  

I don´t like bullpup as you see, trigger is bad on all because of basic design, and magazine change is lousy.

Yeah... I know old guys that think the SLR is heavy and that semi auto is wasteful and they never should have retired the 303 bolt actions. My brother entered service when they were replacing Sterling SMGs and SLRs with Steyr AUGs and he thinks they are great rifles... light, accurate, easy to use.

The French FAMAS rifle has been a disaster. Its delayed blowback action is powerful enough to rip apart regular NATO brass-cased 5.56x45mm cases and its rifling does not stabilize the modern 5.56mm NATO bullets.

A disaster that has served three decades?

The brass cased 556 rounds are more expensive than the cheaper steel cased rounds. And the problem with stabilising modern 5.56mm rounds is common to any 5.56mm calibre rifle in any country... as the rounds get heavier they get longer and need a higher rate of twist to stabilise them.

Original 5.56mm rounds needed a 1 in 12 rate of twist but the longer heavier bullets need a 1 in 9 or even 1 in 7 to keep the bullets stabilised... interestingly enough APFSDS rounds are so long and so heavy they can't be spun fast enough to be stabilised so they are fin stabilised and fired through smoothbore barrels.

A change of barrel would solve the problem.

The French Army is forced to use steel cased 5.56mm ammunition, thus eliminating the advantages of using the same cartridge as their NATO and EU allies.

NATO can't even develop a shared magazine standard design let alone a standard rifle... french steel cased ammo should fire OK in the 5.56mm calibre weapons of her NATO allies.

Would be funny if Russia ordered another weapon a month after the game came out.

That is what patches are for...

Don't you mean DLCs? Hell would freeze over before EA would release weapons for BF4 for free.

I loved Bad Company 2. Scenario wasn't the best, multiplayer options were also limited, but total destruction, AN-94, SVU, game mechanics.. where superior for me. Hours of unproductive fun. Now I see COD clone with blatant anti-russian agenda.