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61 posters

    Venezuela crisis

    Poll

    Will usa be successful in installing it's puppet

    [ 9 ]
    Venezuela crisis - Page 8 Bar_left24%Venezuela crisis - Page 8 Bar_right [24%] 
    [ 28 ]
    Venezuela crisis - Page 8 Bar_left76%Venezuela crisis - Page 8 Bar_right [76%] 

    Total Votes: 37
    Poll closed
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:54 am

    He didn't manage the economy & screwed it, but a civil war there fanned out by the US may kill as many more & create more migrants/refugees, just like in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Libya, San Salvador, Guatemala & Syria. 2 wrongs doesn't make it right!
    Aristide
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    Post  Aristide Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:57 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:He didn't manage the economy & screwed it, but a civil war there fanned out by the US may kill as many more & create more migrants/refugees, just like in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Libya, San Salvador, Guatemala & Syria. 2 wrongs doesn't make it right!

    As you said, he screwed it and should leave. Large parts of the people want him gone.

    Whats your solution? Its obviously not that maduro stays president. Largenparts of the people there want a 180* turn in politics.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:08 am

    Large parts of the people want him gone.
    Ms of French people want Macron gone, does it mean he should retire & join u in New Caledonia, bypassing the due process stipulated in the constitution? That would be a violation & a coup.
    The Americans r using the situation to destabilize Maduro regime farther economically & politically by cutting off its access to $ & de-legitimizing it. If they succeed, the same Ms that r now against him r going to demonstrate against their country being plundered again by the corporations he & Chavez kicked out.
    Aristide
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    Post  Aristide Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:11 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Large parts of the people want him gone.
    Ms of French people want Macron gone, does it mean he should retire & join u in New Caledonia, bypassing the due process stipulated in the constitution? That would be a violation & a coup.
    The Americans r using the situation to destabilize Maduro regime farther economically & politically by cutting off its access to $ & de- legitimizing it. If they succeed, the same Ms that r now against him r going to demonstrate against their country being plundered again by the corporations he kicked out.

    Macron wont be president in 12 months anymore.

    So i ask again, since large parts of venezuela want maduro gone, do you seriously expect people take his bullshit for another 4 or 5 years?
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:18 am

    If there's no other way, they'll have to fight it out, since as many, if not more, people & countries r for Maduro.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:27 am; edited 1 time in total
    Aristide
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    Post  Aristide Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:24 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:If there's no other way, they'll have to fight it out, since as many, if not more, people & counties r for Maduro.

    Colombia and Brazil wont accept more regugees and already start to push them back into venezuela. Which rises the pressure even more. Nobody can force colombia and brszil to allow them in.

    Mexico has a realistic view on it. They know maduro is at an end and want both sides to negotiate.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:31 am

    Because they too just had elections & know that a similar thing can happen to them, since they already have a civil war, high murder rate, migrants, Ms of poor people, & common border with the US.

    The media learned about the secret trip of Guaydo to the USA

    Russian Foreign Ministry warned of a catastrophe during a military scenario in Venezuela

    Just done watching a Russian talk show. In a nutshell, if the US controls the oil there, together with Saudis, the world prices will be controlled & thus Russia which depends on oil exports, may be forced to turn its back on China & help the US to contain it. Brilliant!


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:45 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : add text)
    Aristide
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    Post  Aristide Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:46 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Because they too just had elections & know that a similar thing can happen to them, since they already have a civil war, high murder rate, migrants, Ms of poor people, & common border with the US.

    The media learned about the secret trip of Guaydo to the USA

    Russian Foreign Ministry warned of a catastrophe during a military scenario in Venezuela

    Just done watching a Russian talk show. in a nitshell, if the US controls oil there, together with Saudis the world prices will be controlled & thus Russia which depends on oil exports may be forced to turn its back on China & help the US to contain it. Brilliant!

    How much plays maduros idiocy, low intellect and absolute ignorance into this?

    I would love to see some broader arguments from you. Not just one side.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:50 am

    I would love to see some broader arguments from you. Not just one side.
    the same to u!
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    Post  GarryB Sat Jan 26, 2019 8:36 am

    Lack of food and medicines is one problem. Another is astronomically high, near warzone-level crime that makes life almost unbearable. Why do you think are foreigners advised to not go to Venezuela unless absolutely necessary and if they go, to never show a phone in public and never go alone in an empty street?

    Where are you getting your information from?

    The US State department?

    The UK advised its citizens not to go to Russia for last years Soccer World Cup because they might get attacked or murdered... was the problem real or made up?

    They could in theory be replaced by pro-Russian or neutral guys but none are around. To survive, Maduro would need to compromise and enact reforms and he was unwilling to do that for 5.5 years.

    The US government should be replaced for its undemocratic actions. The EU should have every countries governments replaced because they are obviously saying just what the US says... how is that representing the will of the people of the countries of the EU?

    It is not... so clearly these leaders need to be replaced because they don't represent the people they are supposed to be representing... and there is plenty of crime there too... people getting murdered every day...

    There will always be traitors in Chinese and Russian military. Once the traitors start civil war and gain the border, America can flood weapons in through borders like what happened to Syria. This is a huge threat to the people of China and Russia. The goal of America is destruction of China and Russia.

    China and Russia are too big for that to work and even just trying it is justification for Russia to launch a nuclear strike on the US and anyone found to have supported them in trying to undermine security in Russia.

    I suppose Ukraine army shot down MH17 to blame it on Russia.

    After the Ukraine claimed they didn't have any BUKs to shoot down MH17 a BUK launcher with the exact same old model missile confirmed as used to shoot the plane down ran into some shops in the Ukraine while being moved...

    Russia failed to act in time to stabilize the situation.

    It is not Russias place to help the Ukraine one way or the other.

    Venezuela is run by a demented bsu driver and has gargantuan crime levels combined with constant economic collapse.

    Venezuela is run by a guy that was elected fair and square by the Venezuelan people that is the only correct fact that matters.

    Thats the basic fact. Standing above evrything else.

    The only relevant fact is that the peace loving pro democracy US of A wants war and chaos in Venezuela.

    They don't give a shit about the people... they see a small oil producing country and they know if they can destroy it it will need to pump oil to rebuild itself and cheap oil is good for the US.

    With USA and EU not accepting Maduro as president, his end is basicly signed.

    Yeah, along with Assad and Castro... Castro died of old age didn't he?

    He either compromises or folds. Even more so since large parts of the people stand up against his regime.

    As long as he has the military on his side he will be fine... you can bet your ass the US is bending over backwards offering all sorts of things to the Venezuelan military to change sides... should be interesting.

    Maduro is a piece of shit, no doubt about this. Socialism is the living version of hell, no doubt about this either.

    So many people say this... it is amusing.

    Tell me... the same western media outlets telling us Maduro is evil and bad and communist... say pretty much the same things about Putin...

    Amusing that you think your uninformed views of this guy means breaking all rules and morals of democracy is OK with you... so what do you think... you clearly hate communism and socialism and you also clearly don't give a fuck about democracy... hey are you CNN or BBC?

    The alarming re-occuring event is that once you find someone who is not a neocon dog,has to stay forever and you pray that he is a Putin and not a Maduro.

    But your information sources say they are the same...


    Nothing to boast about! If it's true that he used a French agent in his killing, Sarkozy too may pay for that crime. What comes around, goes around!
    Ousting Qaddafi created more problems than it solved

    Turning Libya into a chaotic shithole is what started the mass exodus from Africa to the promised lands of Europe... hope you enjoyed that...

    Brazil & Colombia can invade them, with some US help, from 2 or 3 sides - if they do, it will be over in less than 2 weeks, if not sooner.
    They could use all that oil, gas & gold to lift their economies in a shorter tome better than anything else.

    They could, but how would they fare with land attack cruise missiles hitting their attacking forces?

    Russia could easily send several subs there to support the Venezuelans from outside aggression... they way they did for Assad... if Tu-160s can get there then so can other aircraft...

    The Venezuelans have about two dozen Su-30MK2s which would not be nothing...

    As you said, he screwed it and should leave. Large parts of the people want him gone.

    Yet they recently just voted him in to the position... his inauguration was within the last two or three weeks.

    Whats your solution? Its obviously not that maduro stays president. Largenparts of the people there want a 180* turn in politics.

    Are they wearing yellow jackets like the French who want Micron out, or were they NOT wearing MAGA hats like all those people who wanted Trump out?

    Macron wont be president in 12 months anymore.

    He will go when he is voted out.... that is how democracy works....

    So i ask again, since large parts of venezuela want maduro gone, do you seriously expect people take his bullshit for another 4 or 5 years?

    The Majority of the Venezuelan population voted for his particular shade of bullshit for the next 4-5 years... that is called Democracy.

    Colombia and Brazil wont accept more regugees and already start to push them back into venezuela. Which rises the pressure even more. Nobody can force colombia and brszil to allow them in.

    They should send them north while there is no wall...

    Just done watching a Russian talk show. In a nutshell, if the US controls the oil there, together with Saudis, the world prices will be controlled & thus Russia which depends on oil exports, may be forced to turn its back on China & help the US to contain it. Brilliant!

    Why on earth would Russia help a country that has it under economic sanctions?

    Fuck America.

    The United States calls on Maduro to transfer power to the head of the National Assembly Juan, Guido.

    Arrest him and execute him for colluding with the US and conspiring to commit treason and execute him... and suggest the democrats do the same with Donald Trump because Maduro has concrete evidence of Trumps collusion with Russia... hahahaha.
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    Post  higurashihougi Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:22 am

    Aristide wrote:Do you admitt, that Maduro fucked up?

    No.

    He and the Chavismo provide healthcare, education, public service, housing, electricity... for the common people.

    He and the Chavismo are trying their best to revitalize the agriculture which are abandoned by the "free" government before Chavez, and at least are getting some results.

    Aristide wrote:As you said, he screwed it and should leave. Large parts of the people want him gone.

    No.

    The likes of you never manage to see the large parades of the pro-Maduro people, which the Western media never dare to show you.

    Aristide wrote:since large parts of venezuela want maduro gone

    Wrong.

    Western newspaper never dare to show you these images

    https://www.facebook.com/stopblokadekubi/posts/1907905982671981

    https://www.facebook.com/baolua.8/posts/1080296628845368

    Aristide wrote:Also what you say to the millions who want Maduro go, since he slammed the country into the wall?

    Also what you say to the countless number of people who supported Maduro since for the very first time thanks to Chavismo they have rights, living means, and dignity ?
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:51 am

    If he was having such large number of people against him, he would have been disposed of already. But that isn't the case. Media has been portraying pro Maduro marches as anti maduro and even regurgitating videos from 2006. Its full on media war. Twitter has gone ablaze with new accounts everywhere (or sleeper accounts) who all follow each other and say the exact same thing word for word. Its bot Heaven over on Twatter.

    Military is on Maduro's side, most of the poor and middle class is on his side and the courts are on his side. Only the rich, Venezuelans living abroad and paid for youth are on this coup leaders side.

    2002 saw similar events and it didnt work out. Even military actually aided the protestors and coup leaders. Ended up failing in end and Chavez being re-instituted into power.

    I don't agree with Maduro on some things. I think his economic policy has been a sham. There is of course the issue of sanctions but in cases like Russia and Iran, they have made good use of the sanctions to turn things around. Venezuela on the other hand just really didn't do enough. Problem is, their farming practices are still basically private. I don't think collectivization of land is a good idea, but there needs to be rules that prevents these private entities for smuggling the food across the broder like they are doing. Other issue is that the import/export business has become a sham and making too much money on the events. There is also the issue of allowing free circulation of USD within Venezuela when currency control should have been put in place when hyperinflation started. Not this cryptocurrency nonsense. If they want to use Crypto, they should just get involved in an established one like Bitcoin rather than making their own. Bitcoin is more universally accepted.
    higurashihougi
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    Post  higurashihougi Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:12 am

    The largest problem of Vene agriculture is the lack of manpower and skilled manpower. Agriculture had been ignored for decades therefore much of the farmer migrated to the cities and now their descendants have no knowledge of operating a farmland. Redistribution of population from cities to rural area is not simple because you have to train these city boys to plant and harvest crops. Furthermore, as far as I know, many Venezuelan women mainly do houseworks and not get used to working in the fields.
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    Post  miketheterrible Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:15 am

    higurashihougi wrote:The largest problem of Vene agriculture is the lack of manpower and skilled manpower. Agriculture had been ignored for decades therefore much of the farmer migrated to the cities and now their descendants have no knowledge of operating a farmland. Redistribution of population from cities to rural area is not simple because you have to train these city boys to plant and harvest crops. Furthermore, as far as I know, many Venezuelan women mainly do houseworks and not get used to working in the fields.

    There is that.

    They could always learn from the Russians then. Possibly get the ever growing Russian agriculture giant companies who are operating very efficiently. Hell, villages are being built or rebuilt around a single farming entity. Giant agriculture companies popping up everywhere over there and they are doing wonders for the agriculture business. Could be a fantastic opportunity where the Russian businesses can rent the land and do agriculture, while hiring and training locals. Doing so will guarantee investments into the field, training and in the end, end products.
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    Post  higurashihougi Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:09 am

    Actually the works of training locals have been done by someone else Embarassed Embarassed Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil  Twisted Evil

    https://photo-3-baomoi.zadn.vn/w700_r1/2018_11_06_120_28476494/d3d0cdb087f16eaf37e0.jpg

    https://photo-3-baomoi.zadn.vn/w700_r1/2018_11_06_120_28476494/9bb79ed7d4963dc86487.jpg
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    Post  miketheterrible Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:32 am

    equally good news. A good way for Vietnam to enter other markets. I know their dairy industry is second to none and have made great strides even in Russia.

    Venezuela and Vietnam could do wonders in such cooperation. Too bad Vietnam chose shitty Israeli rifles when they could have collaborated with Venezuela in the AK-103's, which Russia would possibly be eager to work regarding.
    Aristide
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    Post  Aristide Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:01 pm

    The difference between Castro and Maduro is, that Castro always had support from the EU. The EU even went so far to create the blocking statute, which made it illegal for european countries to follow US sanctions. This is what hold cuba alive since 1995.

    Castro obviously did something right. He managed to bring the EU on his side.

    Maduro doesnt have that. He is a uneducated bus driver with no charisma. Since the USA and the EU block him, his fate is sealed. People in Venezuela starve. There is a mass exodus to escape this hell.

    The fact that he has no arrested the oppossition leader yet...shows his weakness. He doesnt dare to do that.
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    Post  BKP Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:42 pm

    Here's some good recent articles everyone may or may not have read~


    The redoubtable Finian Cunningham, on the back story of this US attack and where it's likely headed:

    Washington orchestrates coup in Venezuela, incites civil war, in name of ‘democracy’
    https://www.rt.com/op-ed/449627-venezuela-democracy-coup-us/

    Contains this choice bit, which may be of particular interest to a certain alleged Serbian:

    But what triggered the latest push from Washington may have been Russia’s more open alliance with Caracas. Last month, President Maduro was hosted in Moscow by Russia’s Vladimir Putin, when the two countries signed multi-billion-dollar partnerships for oil exploration, mining, agricultural and other trade ties.

    Within days of Maduro’s visit to the Kremlin, the “strategic alliance” was given a decisive military underpinning when two Russian Tupolev Tu-160 nuclear-capable bombers flew 10,000 kilometers to Venezuela in an apparent show of Moscow’s support for the beleaguered country.

    Washington’s reaction to the Russian bombers landing in Caracas was apoplectic.


    Another worthwhile read from MoA regarding how the coming conflict may unfold:

    Venezuela - The U.S. Game Plan For 'Regime Change' And How To Respond To It
    https://www.moonofalabama.org/2019/01/venezuela-the-us-game-plan-and-how-to-respond-to-it.html#more



    Oh, and look at whom they're brushing the dust off to manage this latest chapter of the ongoing aggression, Elliot fuckin' Abrams:

    Trump-bashing Iraq war architect Elliott Abrams to lead US regime change in Venezuela
    https://www.rt.com/usa/449756-abrams-pompeo-venezuela-iran-contra/

    Just look at that stomach-turning mug -- a face only the heel of a boot could love

    Venezuela crisis - Page 8 Asshol10

    So, the most likely prognosis is that a multi-year armed conflict brought on by enemies both external and internal is now upon the Venezuelan people. Any "coulda, woulda, shoulda" regarding economic woes not attributable to economic warfare waged on it by outside parties will soon not be particularly relevant, as Venezuela will have to switch to a wartime footing to keep its independence.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:05 pm

    Maduro.. is a uneducated bus driver with no charisma.
    Chavez wasn't that educated either; he had enough charisma so far, with the military still on his side to keep him "in the drivers' seat" of his country, while his opponent is in hiding. The jury is still out!
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    Post  Admin Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:17 pm

    Aristide wrote:

    Maduro doesnt have that. He is a uneducated bus driver with no charisma. Since the USA and the EU block him, his fate is sealed. People in Venezuela starve. There is a mass exodus to escape this hell.

    The fact that he has no arrested the oppossition leader yet...shows his weakness. He doesnt dare to do that.

    Maduro is taking his marching orders from China. Without their cash infusions he can't pay his body guards.
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    Post  LMFS Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:16 pm

    Some very basic facts, for the ones that insist on sticking their heads up their arse more and more in regards to this issue:

    > Opposition boycotted last elections and didn't participate. They fucked up, Maduro won and now they have to live with that. BTW, US said before the elections that they would not be accepted by them so they seem to have shared the same opinion that opposition was going to be defeated as they had been with the creation of the ANC.
    > Unlike in US, elections in Venezuela are internationally monitored. US has exactly NOTHING to say about their fairness and in the end much to improve at home, if they would gave a sh*t about democracy, which they of course don't
    > Maduro and socialism are a failure... my eggs. UK has stolen Venezuelan gold deposited in London. US confiscated billions of their assets, while the country is kept from accessing financial markets and a domestic insurgency is paid and organized by US to disrupt the life in the country as much as possible. Once this interference disappears we can talk about Maduro and socialism, until now what we see is pure warfare.
    > TSJ and electoral council have already called out Guaibo for serious crimes. Nobody voted for him. He controls nothing and his days in the open are coming to an end I guess. He has appointed himself president but has no power and not legitimacy, either legal or popular to claim that position, and what is worse is operating controlled by a remote power and calling for them to intervene. In any serious country he would end facing a shooting squad in no time.
    > The alignment and coordination between US acts and national opposition, as well as candid statements about Guaibo being an element of their strategy in Venezuela, point beyond shadow of a doubt to US committing acts of war against the Venezuelan people. They should take a look at UN charter to see what that entails, someday will be the reckoning day.
    > Majority of Venezuelan belong to the lower classes that have been empowered by Chavismo. The ones begging their masters to put them in place again to loot the country at will are the ones that were displaced and hence hate Maduro with all their soul. So this majority of Venezuelan people craving to US and their pets for freedom is a shameless farce. Those guys are traitors first and foremost, that will put their country at the feet of US so they can enjoy the crumbles left by the master. This would be the price for their treason, from the horse's mouth when he criticised past administrations regarding Libya:

    https://twitter.com/Angry_Voice/status/1088535878287454209
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    Post  Aristide Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:22 pm

    France, Germany, UK, Spain today issued an ultimatum to Maduro. He either announces new elections within next 8 days or is not accepted as president anymore. The entire EU followed that statement.

    https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/us-calls-to-stand-with-freedom-in-venezuela-as-eu-gives-11170348

    European powers, after cautious initial statements, on Saturday warned that they will recognise Guaido unless Maduro calls elections within eight days.

    "If within eight days there are no fair, free and transparent elections called in Venezuela, Spain will recognise Juan Guaido as Venezuelan president" so that he himself can call the vote, Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez said in a televised announcement.

    French President Emmanuel Macron followed suit in a tweet, saying "the Venezuelan people must be able to freely decide on their future." Germany and Britain also joined in the ultimatum.

    Guaido quickly welcomed the support from the European powerhouses.

    "There continues to be progress in the European Union for the recognition and full support of our legitimate and constitutional struggle," he tweeted.


    Read more at https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/us-calls-to-stand-with-freedom-in-venezuela-as-eu-gives-11170348
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    Post  BKP Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:37 pm

    LMFS wrote:TSJ and electoral council have already called out Guaibo for serious crimes. Nobody voted for him. He controls nothing and his days in the open are coming to an end I guess. He has appointed himself president but has no power and not legitimacy, either legal or popular to claim that position, and what is worse is operating controlled by a remote power and calling for them to intervene. In any serious country he would end facing a shooting squad in no time.

    It can certainly be argued that a-hole traitor should be thrown unceremoniously against the wall and shot sooner rather than later. It would demonstrate clearly that the legitimate Venezuelan government is all in and will fight.

    As for that nest of Washington spies and saboteurs holed up in the US so-called "embassy," they should be completely cordoned off and cut off. The Russians might donate some equipment that can jam even their satellite phones. Then they can sit and swelter for as long as it takes for Washington to pedal their asses back from whence they came.

    Aristide wrote:France, Germany, UK, Spain today issued an ultimatum to Maduro. He either announces new elections within next 8 days or is not accepted as president anymore. The entire EU followed that statement.

    European powers, after cautious initial statements, on Saturday warned that they will recognise Guaido unless Maduro calls elections within eight days.

    So, once the whip is cracked, the austerity-pushing, EU lickspittles quickly resume gargling Washington's balls? Hardly surprising dunno
    Aristide
    Aristide


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    Post  Aristide Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:42 pm

    BKP wrote:
    LMFS wrote:TSJ and electoral council have already called out Guaibo for serious crimes. Nobody voted for him. He controls nothing and his days in the open are coming to an end I guess. He has appointed himself president but has no power and not legitimacy, either legal or popular to claim that position, and what is worse is operating controlled by a remote power and calling for them to intervene. In any serious country he would end facing a shooting squad in no time.

    It can certainly be argued that a-hole traitor should be thrown unceremoniously against the wall and shot sooner rather than later. It would demonstrate clearly that the legitimate Venezuelan government is all in and will fight.

    As for that nest of Washington spies and saboteurs holed up in the US so-called "embassy," they should be completely cordoned off and cut off. The Russians might donate some equipment that can jam even their satellite phones. Then they can sit and swelter for as long as it takes for Washington to pedal their asses back from whence they came.

    Aristide wrote:France, Germany, UK, Spain today issued an ultimatum to Maduro. He either announces new elections within next 8 days or is not accepted as president anymore. The entire EU followed that statement.

    European powers, after cautious initial statements, on Saturday warned that they will recognise Guaido unless Maduro calls elections within eight days.

    So, once the whip is cracked, the austerity-pushing, EU lickspittles quickly resume gargling Washington's balls? Hardly surprising dunno

    Wrong. EU holds iran alive and blocks US sanctions. We also block sanctions on cuba.

    But having Maduro in Venezuela is not our interest.
    BKP
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    Post  BKP Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:08 pm

    Aristide wrote:Wrong. EU holds iran alive

    Taking far too much credit


    Aristide wrote:But having Maduro in Venezuela is not our interest.

    "Our" interest? So, when you're not here posting I guess you're getting chauffeur-driven to Davos power luncheons. Rolling Eyes

    Anyhow, it's immaterial. More-ghosts-of-their-former-selves imperial powers don't get to decide. Not by moral right. If it happens regardless, then it's right-by-might and nothing else.

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