Talking bollocks thread

SeigSoloyvov wrote:First off he is insulting anyone who doesn't agree with him then this Lider is under construction when it's not, second off we know it's not yet he keeps posting this is.

I don't believe that the Lider class is under construction.

I said repetedly that the S-500 is not ready yet and it is a key component of the Lider class destroyer.

Have I been insulted by eehnie?

So, time tu update yourself Isos, in the article included by Seig Soloyvov, you can see how the preliminary design has been approved in the spring of 2017.

The article says also what begins after the approval of the preliminary design. In the spring of 2017 the Project 23560 entered in the stage of Technical Design. This is a technical term. Do you know what it means? Better to go to learn about before to call to the mods against me because your call is just ridiculous. Do you know how many time takes a Technical Design after 7 years of preliminary design in wich most of the technical issues have been considered? Again, you can go to learn about.

I can design a ship with mach 20 missiles and s-1000 anti air defence system. Will they start the construction ? No.

That's the same with lider. Building a ship is not just a shipyard. It involves hundreds of companies. Most of the technical solutions are not even ready on paper. Nuclear reactors are not even designed. Radars are not designed. missiles are not ready.They want new VLS that can lunch any type of missile so it is not ready too. You can't build a ship like this and then put everything you want.

If it happens that the VLS is heavier than you though and the structure can't handle it, it will cost you as much as a new small frigate to upgrde it.

You can stop giving your source with the "in construction" fir lidder, no one is looking at it. It is 6 bullshit.

Saying "stupid" to someone who has stupid arguments is not insulting. Just the truth

The-thing-next-door wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:First off he is insulting anyone who doesn't agree with him then this Lider is under construction when it's not, second off we know it's not yet he keeps posting this is.

I don't believe that the Lider class is under construction.

I said repetedly that the S-500 is not ready yet and it is a key component of the Lider class destroyer.

Have I been insulted by eehnie?

You have not been and neither you will be. Even Seig Soloyvov, that would have it well deserved has not been insulted.

The construction of a ship of the size of the Project 23560 can take, and will take in this case several years. In order to keep modern the ship at the time when is commissioned, is important to achieve a good timing between the development of its armament and the development of the ship (same with Project 23000) and this is what Russia is doing.

Today the S-500 is in a stage of testing. The tests will take likely several years in which improvements of the design will be introduced, but this never will lead to dramatic changes in the design (not dimmenssional and neither in their static and dynamic balances). The main development of the S-500, or if you prefer, the preliminary design of the S-500 is also finished.

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/20367/#.Wng2yxig_IU

And the timing coincidence is all but casual.

Neither the development of the Zirkon missiles will be a problem in the construction of the first ship of the Project 23560. In this case the preliminary design is also finished and the missile entered in testing stage in 2016. Good timing again.

https://sputniknews.com/military/201603171036437650-zircon-hypersonic-cruise-missiles/

The preliminary design of both weapons is completed. To include it in the preliminary design of the ship is likely enough at this stage, and would not be a problem to begin the construction of the first components and parts of the ship. By the time when the construction of the ship is advanced the weapons will be ready.

In fact is better to do it this way, because this is the way to maximize the advantage that give these 3 state of the art weapons (Project 23560, S-500 and Zircon).

Isos wrote:

eehnie wrote:

Isos wrote:You can't just lunch the construction while the design isn't ready.

Don't be stupid and stop using this shit article.

So, time to update yourself Isos, in the article included by Seig Soloyvov, you can see how the preliminary design has been approved in the spring of 2017.

I can design  a ship with mach 20 missiles and s-1000 anti air defence system. Will they start the construction ? No.

That's the same with lider. Building a ship is not just a shipyard. It involves hundreds of companies. Most of the technical solutions are not even ready on paper. Nuclear reactors are not even designed. Radars are not designed. missiles are not ready.They want new VLS that can lunch any type of missile so it is not ready too. You can't build a ship like this and then put everything you want.

If it happens that the VLS is heavier than you though and the structure can't handle it, it will cost you as much as a new small frigate to upgrde it.

You can stop giving your source with the "in construction" fir lidder, no one is looking at it. It is 6 bullshit.

Saying "stupid" to someone who has stupid arguments is not insulting. Just the truth

Going with the comment of Isos, it is possible that you would apply the term "stupid" to your own remark about the nuclear reactor. Taking into account that the Project 23560 seems to have been designed since 2010, this one is likely the choice for the Project 23560. At first view seems to be designed "also" for the Project 23560:

https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=es&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ru&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%25D0%259B%25D0%25B5%25D0%25B4%25D0%25BE%25D0%25BA%25D0%25BE%25D0%25BB%25D1%258B_%25D1%2582%25D0%25B8%25D0%25BF%25D0%25B0_%25D0%259B%25D0%259A-60%25D0%25AF&usg=ALkJrhjrm-muHN_X71i45ydCmty0vBajCg

First unit delivered in 2016. Good timing again.

Bolded in green the best part of your comment. Saying it, you should understand that the construction of a ship not necessarily begins in the shipyard. If some component for the ship is under construction, the ship is under construction.

The-thing-next-door wrote:..................
You know I wonder what would happen if your superiors caught you posting on a pro Russian forum while on duty in Syria? I would imagine that to be grounds for dishonorable discharge...

Unless USA and Russia officially go to war he can post wherever the hell he wants.

And even afterwards he could still post to his heart's content wherever the hell he wants as long as he skips official stuff.

The-thing-next-door wrote:......
Or maybe the would just send you to Idlib province and let the VSS do the rest....

I know you have fascination with USSR in all it's incompetent self-crippling glory but it's not fair to project such colossal failure on what is (un)fortunately proven to be superior entity.

The-thing-next-door wrote:.....
If you are indeed a officer in Syria could you maybe give us your name and rank?...

Would you like his bank account and PIN number?  

The-thing-next-door wrote:.....
Oh and don't forget the GLONASS coordinates.

Until Russia launches several more satellites GPS will have far superior coverage. And you should always go with superior option.

Bolded in green the best part of your comment. Saying it, you should understand that the construction of a ship not necessarily begins in the shipyard. If some component for the ship is under construction, the ship is under construction.

Nothing is under construction. S-500 is land based and it is not finished. Naval version hasn't been started. You can't just put the same radars because lider will have integrated mast with lot of radars in it so you have to be sure that the s-500 radars are finished before even starting the mast (i mean the design not the construction). Nuclear  energy allow them to have much more power so they could even go for much better radars that would be totally different from land based version.

Using the reactor of icebreakers for liders is just speculation. There is much more chances that they use a model made for Husky subs and for their future carriers and liders.

New military nuclear ships have reactors that don't need to refuel for their entire service life, something like 25 years. This reactor you are talking about has to be refuel every 7 years according to your source.

Can a moderator please take this love affair between Seig and The-thing into the talking bullocks thread?

Isos wrote:

Bolded in green the best part of your comment. Saying it, you should understand that the construction of a ship not necessarily begins in the shipyard. If some component for the ship is under construction, the ship is under construction.

Nothing is under construction. S-500 is land based and it is not finished. Naval version hasn't been started. You can't just put the same radars because lider will have integrated mast with lot of radars in it so you have to be sure that the s-500 radars are finished before even starting the mast (i mean the design not the construction). Nuclear  energy allow them to have much more power so they could even go for much better radars that would be totally different from land based version.

Using the reactor of icebreakers for liders is just speculation. There is much more chances that they use a model made for Husky subs and for their future carriers and liders.

New military nuclear ships have reactors that don't need to refuel for their entire service life, something like 25 years. This reactor you are talking about has to be refuel every 7 years according to your source.

Not sure of how many nuclear reactors expect you to be designed for a generation of armament. The icebreaker and the Project 23560 are contemporary and very likely linked designs, with clear 2:1 weight relation, and there is good room for standardization there. The nuclear submarines of this generation are being built with the same reactor of the previous generation. There is a new design for icebreakers that seems compatible with the Project 23560. And we do not know still if the Project 23000 will be solved with the same new reactor or with other different.

Also the S-500 and the Project 23560 are contemporary and linked designs, and all the standardization value would be lost if the S-500 needs to design different missiles for its naval application. Would not make sense. It is logical that the naval missiles be the same that are being tested. The difference between the launching system of the land based S-500 and the naval S-500 would be that in the first the tubes are added to a mobile platform, while in the second the tubes would be fixed to the ship in a silo-like style, something that can be perfectly advanced in the preliminary design of the Project 23560, that was approved in the spring of 2017, from the basis of the "preliminary" design of the S-500 approved to test.

To be fair you are speculating a lot about things you have not knowledge about, and doing it in a negative way. First you said the design of the Project 23560 was not ready and the preliminary design was approved in the spring of 2017, later you said a new nuclear reactor must be designed and there is a new reactor designed that seems compatible, and now you said the design of the naval S-500 has not begin and very likely will use the exact same missiles that are in stage of test (using radars for it).

I'm not speculating. I said none of those things that have to go on lider are ready which is true and which make your source that says lider is under construction totally stupid and fake.

I said that modern military reactors are meant to be used all the ship's service life which is true for USA for Russia even for France. The wikipedia link you provided says that the reactor of the icevreaker has to be refueled every 7 years.

I never spoke about old subs. I said they will probably make a new one for husky class which is the future nuclear sub and they will probably use it also for lider. This may be considered as speculation because it is a project and nothing precise was said about that.

Like I said Lider will have integrated mast so radars have to be ready before construction start which according to you already started which is totally stupid. Naval radars are not the same as the land based radars. If they are testing land vased radars it means naval version is not ready.

Isos wrote:I'm not speculating. I said none of those things that have to go on lider are ready which is true and which make your source that says lider is under construction totally stupid and fake.

I said that modern military reactors are meant to be used all the ship's service life which is true for USA for Russia even for France. The wikipedia link you provided says that the reactor of the icevreaker has to be refueled every 7 years.

I never spoke about old subs. I said they will probably make a new one for husky class which is the future nuclear sub and they will probably use it also for lider. This may be considered as speculation because it is a project and nothing precise was said about that.

Like I said Lider will have integrated mast so radars have to be ready before construction start which according to you already started which is totally stupid. Naval radars are not the same as the land based radars. If they are testing land vased radars it means naval version is not ready.

I posted the wikipedia link for you see about a new reactor, wich design is contemporary with the design of the Project 23560 and the new nuclear icebreaker, and likely linked to both projects. In the wikipedia link you have also easy access to other links to read about the reactor. If your concern about refueling would be something to rule out this reactor, neither would be valid for the icebreaker. But the reactor is valid for the icebreaker, and seems compatible with the Project 23560.

At same time the Project 885 is not old subs. Fairly new, under production, and equiped with a veteran nuclear reactor that is also in production. I commented about submarines of the current generation after your comment about the option of a future nuclear reactor for the Project ??? Husky. In the Project 885 you have a second option of nuclear reactor under production today. Really there is not a need to wait for future designs of nuclear reactors like you wanted to say.

About the lack of radars for the Project 23560 you are assuming too much things that are likely wrong. Did not you see a design of the masts in the pictures of the models of the Project 23560? My impression is that radars have been considered.

Even if components & gear r being produced for the Lider, it doesn't mean they will be installed on it & not on other ships. So, to me at least, until its hull is under construction, the Lider isn't being built & remains a paper ship!
The Navy again turned out to be stepdaughter
The renewal of the naval staff of the Russian Navy is unacceptably slow
http://nvo.ng.ru/realty/2018-02-09/2_983_red.html

eehnie wrote:

I posted the wikipedia link for you see about a new reactor, wich design is contemporary with the design of the Project 23560 and the new nuclear icebreaker, and likely linked to both projects. In the wikipedia link you have also easy access to other links to read about the reactor. If your concern about refueling would be something to rule out this reactor, neither would be valid for the icebreaker. But the reactor is valid for the icebreaker, and seems compatible with the Project 23560.

At same time the Project 885 is not old subs. Fairly new, under production, and equiped with a veteran nuclear reactor that is also in production. I commented about submarines of the current generation after your comment about the option of a future nuclear reactor for the Project ??? Husky. In the Project 885 you have a second option of nuclear reactor under production today. Really there is not a need to wait for future designs of nuclear reactors like you wanted to say.

About the lack of radars for the Project 23560 you are assuming too much things that are likely wrong. Did not you see a design of the masts in the pictures of the models of the Project 23560? My impression is that radars have been considered.

Yasen are soviet design. So it's an old ship even if they are produced today.

I'm saying they could use same reactors with husky class because they will likely be build i tye same time, like in 10 years maybe. But you think lider is already under construction so you can' agree on this

This thing is a maket madesome years ago by the shipyard and not almaz antei. They didn't know what s 500 radars look like. Even if it is not what it will be you can see the radars are different from land based radar so they will need time to adapt S-500 into its naval version. Just look what happened with redut and s-350, they are still developing S-350 land based while redut is working on ships.

eehnie wrote:I posted the wikipedia link for you see about a new reactor, wich design is contemporary with the design of the Project 23560 and the new nuclear icebreaker, and likely linked to both projects. In the wikipedia link you have also easy access to other links to read about the reactor. If your concern about refueling would be something to rule out this reactor, neither would be valid for the icebreaker. But the reactor is valid for the icebreaker, and seems compatible with the Project 23560..............

Look, as much as hate to admit my fuckups I gotta say that there might be something in those Lider construction news.

Recently they started massive overhaul of Sevmash shipyard, here is photo:

https://sdelanounas.ru/i/y/i/5/Yi5yYWRpa2FsLnJ1L2IyNi8xODAxL2EyL2UwODEyMzNlYzdjNy5qcGc_X19pZD0xMDMwMDQ=.jpg


And even weirder is that they filmed this massive ship section being built there while making documentary the other day, you can clearly see it on this video in the background at 0:42 seconds​:

https://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ

Tsavo Lion wrote:Even if components & gear r being produced for the Lider, it doesn't mean they will be installed on it & not on other ships. So, to me at least, until its haul is under construction, the Lider isn't being built & remains a paper ship!
The Navy again turned out to be stepdaughter
The renewal of the naval staff of the Russian Navy is unacceptably slow
http://nvo.ng.ru/realty/2018-02-09/2_983_red.html

What and what does the russian army and air force have to show for snatching up the funds needed by the navy? Kurganets, Su-57, and Armata aren't coming earlier or in larger numbers.

Isos wrote:

eehnie wrote:

I posted the wikipedia link for you see about a new reactor, wich design is contemporary with the design of the Project 23560 and the new nuclear icebreaker, and likely linked to both projects. In the wikipedia link you have also easy access to other links to read about the reactor. If your concern about refueling would be something to rule out this reactor, neither would be valid for the icebreaker. But the reactor is valid for the icebreaker, and seems compatible with the Project 23560.

At same time the Project 885 is not old subs. Fairly new, under production, and equiped with a veteran nuclear reactor that is also in production. I commented about submarines of the current generation after your comment about the option of a future nuclear reactor for the Project ??? Husky. In the Project 885 you have a second option of nuclear reactor under production today. Really there is not a need to wait for future designs of nuclear reactors like you wanted to say.

About the lack of radars for the Project 23560 you are assuming too much things that are likely wrong. Did not you see a design of the masts in the pictures of the models of the Project 23560? My impression is that radars have been considered.

Yasen are soviet design. So it's an old ship even if they are produced today.

I'm saying they could use same reactors with husky class because they will likely be build i  tye same time, like in 10 years maybe. But you think lider is already under construction so you can' agree on this

This thing is a maket madesome years ago by the shipyard and not almaz antei. They didn't know what s 500 radars look like. Even if it is not what it will be you can see the radars are different from land based radar so they will need time to adapt S-500 into its naval version. Just look what happened with redut and s-350, they are still developing S-350 land based while redut is working on ships.

I do not agree about the timeline you are giving for the Project 23560.

Radar structures are evident in the pictures. and are for real designs of radars. The pictures are from 2015 and likely are not exactly like the preliminary design approved in the spring of 2017. But this is all. Is not right to say that they approved a preliminary design without radars. Neither is right to say that they know not how the radars of the S-500 will be, because also a design of the S-500 has been approved and is being tested.

You are treating 7 years of work in the preliminary design of the Project 23560 like if it would be a draw that I would do in a weekend. Do not fool yourself. The design approved is serious and complete. Othewise this project would have not entered in the stage of Technical Design. You really are not giving sighs about to know what all it means.

This thread is for Russian Navy construction, not for definitions of Black Ops and personal attacks.

Vladimir79 wrote: This thread is for Russian Navy construction, not for definitions of Black Ops and personal attacks.

Well, if we don't answer to Eehnie people will just see his comments of Lider being under construction on your forum and they will think it's not a serious forum.

You could actually answer to him BTW. You work for russian defence companies if I'm not wrong.

KomissarBojanchev wrote:

Tsavo Lion wrote:Even if components & gear r being produced for the Lider, it doesn't mean they will be installed on it & not on other ships. So, to me at least, until its hull is under construction, the Lider isn't being built & remains a paper ship!
The Navy again turned out to be stepdaughter
The renewal of the naval staff of the Russian Navy is unacceptably slow
http://nvo.ng.ru/realty/2018-02-09/2_983_red.html

What and what does the russian army and air force have to show for snatching up the funds needed by the navy? Kurganets, Su-57, and Armata aren't coming earlier or in larger numbers.

The Ministry of Defense plans to purchase 200 tanks annually
http://www.ng.ru/news/607632.html?print=Y

The majority of the in-service tanks are of the T-72 and T-90 variants, including 564 modernised T-72B3 tanks (according to Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu), and 300 T-90 tanks. The modernised T-72B3 tanks are gradually replacing the other varieties, at a rate of 300 tanks per year. ..
The goal is to unify the types of tanks as much as possible in order to reduce maintenance costs. The modernisation of T-72 tanks costs 50 million rubles (962,000 dollars) each.
According to unofficial sources, the cost per [Armata] tank is approximately 400 million rubles [$6,853,518.16 US at today's rate], which is more than double that of the German Leopard-2 and about 60-75% higher than that of the French Leclerc and US M-1 Abrams. Yuri Borisov, the deputy defence minister responsible for procurement, has indicated that the cost is about 2.5 times higher [or $17,133,795.4] than stated in the State Armaments Programme.
As a result, the Defence Ministry is expecting to reduce the number of Armata tanks it will procure, focusing instead on continuing to modernise existing T-72 tanks in the medium term. According to Russian media reports, Uralvagonzavod has agreed to lower some Armata costs, but the programme will still be expensive.
https://russiamil.wordpress.com/2015/07/15/armata-russias-future-main-battle-tank/

Using the above figures, 200 x $17,133,795.4= $3B 426M 759, 080 per year, + 300/y x $962,000 mod. T-72B3 tanks= $288 600,000; Total:  $3B 715M 359,080 per year. If we include the year 2020, $3B 715M 359,080 x 3= $11B 146M 077, 240  That's a lot!

Those price estimates have to be BS, particularly the $17 million dollars one, especially in today's exchange rate. We are talking about Russia prices here, there's no fucking way it's actually more expensive than any Western tank in dollar terms. EDIT: Oh, it is that blog you're using as a source? No wonder.  

I mean seriously, "$17,133,795.4" LMAO. Wow, he knows how to use a calculator. Why not "$17,133,795.4538392387623256". What a load of crap...

And again, what does that 200 tanks mean? It seems to be a very recent comment. It includes upgrades as well, I presume? So how many of those will be T-14s? Is it even going to be 50? Maybe 5?

Kimppis wrote:Those price estimates have to be BS, particularly the $17 million dollars one, especially in today's exchange rate. We are talking about Russia prices here, there's no fucking way it's actually more expensive than any Western tank in dollar terms. EDIT: Oh, it is that blog you're using as a source? No wonder.  

I mean seriously, "$17,133,795.4" LMAO. Wow, he knows how to use a calculator. Why not "$17,133,795.4538392387623256". What a load of crap...

And again, what does that 200 tanks mean? It seems to be a very recent comment. It includes upgrades as well, I presume? So how many of those will be T-14s? Is it even going to be 50? Maybe 5?

Not sure how much have you been in Russia, but Russians are obsessed with US dollar. They convert everything to USD, you ask for used car price on local reseller he will tell you price in USD in 60 or 70% of cases. So there is that.

Now, wouldnt be the first time that Russian equipment is more expencive than Western counterparts, it goes both ways. Also take note there is basically 0 serial Armatas atm, at start they will cost their weight in gold till production rates and orders grow. At the time of appearance Abrams was costing, counting in exchange rates almost double to current cost, thats how it is.

Now, 17 million looks abit blown up, however he said "project will cost", that probably points towards US way of calculating cost where they merge development costs, new facilities cost and cost per unit. That way B-2 bomber per unit costs like whole Baltic fleet.

An armata tank is about $4M per tank. That was also considered as too much thus Russian MoD forced prices down.

No, Russians don't use USD in Russia or convert it daily, ignore militarovs trolling about it. All prices are in Rubles. So its rather meaningless to use it in USD terms.

Just validate it by how much Russia spends on jets or other equipment, and you will get an idea. Cost of a program is separate since mod funded it at first, unless it's MiG-35 or Su-35

Last contract of 48 Su-35's was roughly $27M per aircraft. In Rubles it was 60B roubles.

It's too new to be upgraded. Pl. read the original article carefully- the modernization figures for older tanks r separate.
The Russian economy is still connected to the global 1 & therefore to the US $, I just converted the Ruble amount to get a better idea of the costs involved. Even though the plant is state owned, it's been loosing money:

Revenue $1.97 billion (2016)
Operating income $81.1 million (2016)
Net income -$79.1 million (2016)
As of December 27, 2016, UVZ has been transferred to Rostec, following a presidential decree. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralvagonzavod#History

Its employees must live on the local economy that is mostly non-state owned/driven. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nizhny_Tagil#Economy

Miketheterrible's $4 million sounds atleast believable.

Militarov, $17 million is more than "a bit blown up". The thing is that the ruble massively devalued in 2014, since then those comparisons have been pretty much meaningless.

And what Russian weapons sytems have been more expensive in dollars? The first few Yasens? Some surface ships? And that was before the devaluation.

So no Tsavo Lion, converting the prices like that very rarely, if ever, makes sense. "Too new to be upgraded" - what tanks are you talking about? T-14? Sure, but I'm not entirely convinced that he's really only talking about new tanks. You mean the ng.ru article, right? It's very short and I read it through Google Translate, so it seems to me that he could have just combined both figures (upgrades + new tanks). I hope not!

Who cares about converting in dollars. T-14 is build in russia with russian technology. They don't exchange money and buy the tanks. They should actually build a lot of them and sell abroad for dollars or euros.