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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #4

    arpakola
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    Post  arpakola on Thu May 22, 2014 12:42 pm

    Командир украинской бригады: Нападавшие были проплаченыПредставитель командующего состава военнослужащих, атакованных в селе Благодатном, уверен, что против них действовали наемники.

    http://lifenews.ru/news/133650

     По словам одного из командующих командного состава 51-й бригады украинских вооруженных сил, вооруженные люди приехали 22 мая на нескольких машинах и открыли огонь без предупреждения. В результате этого нападения погибли 15 украинских солдат. По меньшей мере 35 человек ранены.

    – Это были наемники, подготовленные, "лупили" они профессионально, – рассказывает командир атакованной 51-й бригады. - Наши открыли огонь в ответ. Одну их машину сожгли. Они в итоге расстреляли три боевых машины пехоты и две санитарных таблетки, УАЗ. Со слов очевидцев, собрали в кучу ребят, заставили тех, кто мог, поднять руки за голову.

    По словам украинского военного, солдаты были застигнуты врасплох, но сумели дать отпор:

    – Наши успели открыть огонь в ответ. Одну машину сожгли. Нападавшие стреляли из гранатометов и пулеметов. Они были хорошо подготовлены к нападению на блокпост. Сто процентов проплачены кем-то были. Кем, я не знаю.

    По словам местных жителей, ставших очевидцами нападения, неизвестные, приехавшие на инкассаторских машинах "Приватбанка" и двух джипах, открыли огонь по украинским военным, отказавшимся ранее стрелять по мирным жителям.

    – Жители Благодатного встали на защиту своих домов. Украинским солдатам приказали подавить сопротивление. Те отказались стрелять в людей, и в итоге их наказали, – говорит источник в штабе командования самообороны.

    По данным собеседника, это была карательная операция по заказу олигарха Игоря Коломойского – владельца "Приватбанка", известного тем, что он финансировал протесты на майдане и выплачивал вознаграждения бойцам "Правого сектора".

     

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    medo
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    Post  medo on Thu May 22, 2014 2:17 pm

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFGbaKKfzf4

    What is more interesting is, that this army unit was also attacked by Ukrainian helicopters and you could see them launching flares. There were no destroyed Privat bank vehicles, but BMPs. It seems, they were first attacked by helicopters to destroy BMPs and than by nazi groups, that soldiers could net defend themselves with BMPs. I wonder if now similar Ukrainian army units will now fire on any helicopter flying around, just to be sure and for any case, if...
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    Post  macedonian on Thu May 22, 2014 4:19 pm

    medo wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFGbaKKfzf4

    What is more interesting is, that this army unit was also attacked by Ukrainian helicopters and you could see them launching flares. There were no destroyed Privat bank vehicles, but BMPs. It seems, they were first attacked by helicopters to destroy BMPs and than by nazi groups, that soldiers could net defend themselves with BMPs. I wonder if now similar Ukrainian army units will now fire on any helicopter flying around, just to be sure and for any case, if...

    From the beginning of this tragicomedy that the US cooked up in Ukraine, I feel sorry for the regular Ukrainian soldiers.
    They seem to know who the real enemy is, and it ain't the people which are quite similar to them, that's why they cannot bring themselves to kill the locals when ordered to...not that Russia is blameless in this whole mess, far from it!

    But picture yourself in their (the regular Ukr soldiers') position: Poorly fed, poorly trained, conscripted to fight a war against the people they feel they are same with. Refuse to obey orders, and the very best thing you can hope for is a Court Marshal...getting shot on the spot for being 'not-patriotic-enough' is more likely.
    So what the fcuk do you do?! Well, some obviously prefer dying to killing innocents. I really respect and admire them for that. Truly brave men.
    arpakola
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    Post  arpakola on Thu May 22, 2014 4:28 pm

    macedonian wrote:
    medo wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFGbaKKfzf4

    What is more interesting is, that this army unit was also attacked by Ukrainian helicopters and you could see them launching flares. There were no destroyed Privat bank vehicles, but BMPs. It seems, they were first attacked by helicopters to destroy BMPs and than by nazi groups, that soldiers could net defend themselves with BMPs. I wonder if now similar Ukrainian army units will now fire on any helicopter flying around, just to be sure and for any case, if...

    From the beginning of this tragicomedy that the US cooked up in Ukraine, I feel sorry for the regular Ukrainian soldiers.
    They seem to know who the real enemy is, and it ain't the people which are quite similar to them, that's why they cannot bring themselves to kill the locals when ordered to...not that Russia is blameless in this whole mess, far from it!

    But picture yourself in their (the regular Ukr soldiers') position: Poorly fed, poorly trained, conscripted to fight a war against the people they feel they are same with. Refuse to obey orders, and the very best thing you can hope for is a Court Marshal...getting shot on the spot for being 'not-patriotic-enough' is more likely.
    So what the fcuk do you do?! Well, some obviously prefer dying to killing innocents. I really respect and admire them for that. Truly brave men.

    Ιn cases like those .. just not obey orders is a disaster.
    There is no nutrality in civil wars. So called nutrals suffer most cusalties.
    Taking the right side would save them..
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    Post  etaepsilonk on Thu May 22, 2014 4:32 pm

    As cruel as it sounds, but those soldiers had it coming.

    Just from the first days' laws, embracing NAZI ideology, everyone could've easily figure out what kind of people junta is.

    So, what prevented the army from marching to Kiev, and overthrowing the junta? Conformity, wish to come out dry out of this, I really struggle to find any other answer.

    That's also the case for soldiers, who didn't want to obey orders, but also didn't want to mutiny as well. And died soldiers of this outpost really have to blame nothing but themselves for such a wishful thinking.


    --------------------------
    Lukashenko : I will fight , even if it is Putin

    President of Belarus Alexander Lukashenko criticized the separatists organized a referendum in Ukraine and Russia is no longer warns over former Soviet territory after the annexation of the Crimea , Russian media reported .

    " Ukraine must be united and indivisible state. And east and west of Ukraine ", - said Lukashenko interview , which was published on Wednesday evening television channel " dosage " ( " Rain " ) .

    According to Lukashenko , he is fighting any invaders , including Russian President Vladimir Putin . "No matter what beateitų Belarusian lands, I will fight , even if it will be Putin ," said the Belarusian authoritarian leader .

    Since 1994, when Lukashenko was elected president of Belarus constantly claims to be the closest neighboring Russian ally .

    But in Belarus , which is dependent on Moscow cheap energy resources and serves as a buffer zone between Russia and NATO , the manager often says nesilankstysiąs its citizens than Russia or the West .

    The two eastern regions of Ukraine on 11 May pro-Russian separatist organize referendums " legally irrelevant " - said Lukashenko .

    Russia annexed the Crimea region of Ukraine in March , following a referendum which Kiev and the West as illegal .

    Lukashenka's statements could increase pressure on Putin to distance themselves from the pro-Russian separatist militants who threaten to disrupt Sunday upcoming Ukrainian presidential election.

    While being economically dependent on Russia Lukashenko affect Moscow as Putin is an important partner to create a Eurasian economic union , consisting of a number of former Soviet republics .

    http://www.delfi.lt/news/daily/world/a-lukasenka-kovosiu-net-jei-tai-bus-putinas.d?id=64855545#ixzz32SJNSc7R


    Good cop-bad cop, you say?  Wink


    Last edited by etaepsilonk on Thu May 22, 2014 5:10 pm; edited 4 times in total
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    Post  macedonian on Thu May 22, 2014 4:35 pm

    arpakola wrote:
    macedonian wrote:From the beginning of this tragicomedy that the US cooked up in Ukraine, I feel sorry for the regular Ukrainian soldiers.
    They seem to know who the real enemy is, and it ain't the people which are quite similar to them, that's why they cannot bring themselves to kill the locals when ordered to...not that Russia is blameless in this whole mess, far from it!

    But picture yourself in their (the regular Ukr soldiers') position: Poorly fed, poorly trained, conscripted to fight a war against the people they feel they are same with. Refuse to obey orders, and the very best thing you can hope for is a Court Marshal...getting shot on the spot for being 'not-patriotic-enough' is more likely.
    So what the fcuk do you do?! Well, some obviously prefer dying to killing innocents. I really respect and admire them for that. Truly brave men.

    Ιn cases like those .. just not obey orders is a disaster.
    There is no nutrality in civil wars. So called nutrals suffer most cusalties.
    Taking the right side would save them..

    I agree in full !
    That's why many of them 'defected' to the side of the people. Most of the rest would've too, I think, but they were too afraid to do it.
    Stuck between a rock and a hard place these guys. Can't say I envy them.

    etaepsilonk wrote:As cruel as it sounds, but those soldiers had it coming.
    Just from the first days' laws, embracing NAZI ideology, everyone could've easily figure out what kind of people junta is.
    Really?!
    And where the fcuk do YOU live?!
    Know how a civil war looks like? Seen it first hand?!
    No, you're wrong, it doesn't sound cruel - IT REEKS OF UTTER STUPIDITY!
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    Post  etaepsilonk on Thu May 22, 2014 4:45 pm

    macedonian wrote:
    Really?!
    And where the fcuk do YOU live?!
    Know how a civil war looks like? Seen it first hand?!
    No, you're wrong, it doesn't sound cruel - IT REEKS OF UTTER STUPIDITY!


    I really have no interest in encouraging your PMS posts.
    My point is that those Ukrainian soldiers HAD to pick one side and not stand in the sidelines, but they failed to realize it.


    Last edited by etaepsilonk on Thu May 22, 2014 4:58 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Post  macedonian on Thu May 22, 2014 4:52 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:
    macedonian wrote:
    Really?!
    And where the fcuk do YOU live?!
    Know how a civil war looks like? Seen it first hand?!
    No, you're wrong, it doesn't sound cruel - IT REEKS OF UTTER STUPIDITY!


    I really have no interest in encouraging your PMS posts.
    Congratulations!
    You are the VERY FIRST person I've ever downvoted on this forum!
    Now, if you don't have any more of that dubious intelligence to spread around, I suggest we keep commenting on the situation in Ukraine here.
    Sounds fair to you?! Or is it too much of a PMS?!
    You kids are in for a surprise when you marry, I'll tell you that much.
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    Post  Vann7 on Thu May 22, 2014 4:52 pm

    There are reports of about 250 armored cars lining up for an invasion with National guard and right sector near Slaviansk..
    For a massive invasion on the city. and others in Lugansk... to. Their estimate is more than 6,000 soldiers in Lugansk alone.
    This looks like a really bad thing.. They better blockade the entrance to the cities with heavy old trucks.  Its quite possible
    that the Kiev nazi junta is planning to risk everything now before the elections.. Because after the elections ,if there is bloodshed
    and many civilians killed , then the new government will be blamed for it.  

    IT looks like NATO will push for a major war provocation against Russia..since Biden is in Romania ,not for tourism but probably to lure them to provoke Russia. so Russia better start looking which targets to hit in case a war start.. and they attacked.. and threaten NATO with a full scale war against them if they dare to attack Russia ,that they forced to invade because Ukraine start a genocide against Civilians.
    we will see.. But im confident that sometimes war is the only way to achieve peace.. Imagine if Russia do not declare war to Georgia
    when they attacked. Will have been not only bad for their own security ,because will teach others countries that they can attack Russia..and get away with it.  So i still think will have been better to see the war to start with Syria.. Syria have enough Yakhonts missiles to defeat US navy at their shores. AFter US navy wiped and humiliated the American Public Tolerance for more interferences will end ,and will not accepted US interference in Ukraine.. neither NATO  will have supported the coup knowing the major potential for a another war between US and Russia.

    on Another note..
    I can't believe Lukanshenko used those words of fighting Putin.. is that true?
    I do not understand his position on Ukraine ,US finance a coup in Ukraine ,help a minority of Nazi radicals to siege power and later finance them ,promote them to kill Assasinate Russians and Ukrainians who reject their authority and protest.. as they did in Odessa. I cannot believe he still believe territory of a nation is more important than millions of lives. When two factions hate each other to death ,is pointless to try to keep them together..while they have ZERO opportunity for future under a Government that call them terrorist and send nazis to burn their houses or kill them.


    Last edited by Vann7 on Thu May 22, 2014 5:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  etaepsilonk on Thu May 22, 2014 5:02 pm

    macedonian wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:
    macedonian wrote:
    Really?!
    And where the fcuk do YOU live?!
    Know how a civil war looks like? Seen it first hand?!
    No, you're wrong, it doesn't sound cruel - IT REEKS OF UTTER STUPIDITY!


    I really have no interest in encouraging your PMS posts.
    Congratulations!
    You are the VERY FIRST person I've ever downvoted on this forum!
    Now, if you don't have any more of that dubious intelligence to spread around, I suggest we keep commenting on the situation in Ukraine here.
    Sounds fair to you?! Or is it too much of a PMS?!
    You kids are in for a surprise when you marry, I'll tell you that much.

    Congratulations to you too, buy yourself a medal  Smile 


    ---------------------------------------

    Rasmusen in a tone of change announces that Russian forces may be withdrawing somewhat  Smile 

    NATO: Russian forces may be withdrawing, Russia: Kiev expanding military operation

    The small types of troops movement near the border with Ukraine suggests that the preparations for disengagement , said Thursday , NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen.

    " Yesterday ( Wednesday) late in the evening we saw a small Russian military activity near the border with Ukraine , which suggests that some of these forces are preparing to retreat " - NATO chief said during a visit to the capital city of Montenegro .

    " It is too early to speak of what it means , but I hope that it is a complete and full retreat beginning ," - said Rasmussen .

    "Currently, the bulk of Russian forces stationed near the Ukrainian border continues and we see continued Russian exercises in the same area ," - he said.


    NATO chief added: "If we see a significant , comprehensive and evidenced by withdrawal , first congratulate it .

    "It would be the first step in the right direction of Russia in their international commitments , in particular in view of the fact that Ukraine is preparing for presidential elections on Sunday important ," - said Rasmussen .

    Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Monday pavasarinėse exercises in three regions near the border of Ukraine took part in the military to return to their places of permanent deployment .

    NATO estimates that the Ukrainian border was centered about 40 thousand . Russian troops.

    Russia says that Kiev expanding military operation in eastern Ukraine

    Moscow said on Thursday that Ukraine's pro-Western government of interim consistently expanding its military operation in the eastern part of the country , and accused Kiev, that he was not ready to implement the agreements needed to end the crisis.

    "Kiev ... consistently expanding criminal operation against its own people on a regular basis apšaudydamas towns and villages in the east of the country , as well as the heavy weapons," - said Russian Foreign Ministry spokesman Alexander Lukaševičius .

    http://www.delfi.lt/news/daily/world/nato-rusijos-pajegos-galbut-traukiasi.d?id=64854687#ixzz32SPb01NS


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    arpakola
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    Post  arpakola on Thu May 22, 2014 5:10 pm

    Kiev denies OSCE mission access to LifeNews detained journalists
    The Situation in the Ukraine. #4 - Page 21 Bn7tng7cqaekfdj.si.si.si
    Ukrainian authorities are not letting the OSCE special monitoring mission visit the detained journalists from Russia’s LifeNews channel, Andrey Kelin, Russia's permanent representative to the organization, said.

    Ukrainian authorities are not letting the OSCE special monitoring mission visit the detained journalists from Russia’s LifeNews channel, Andrey Kelin, Russia's permanent representative to the organization, said.

    “At our request, the OSCE mission is demanding a meeting with the journalists, but the Kiev authorities forbid them from doing,” Kelin told ITAR-TASS news agency.

    Russia will continue pushing for action on the part of the OSCE (Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe) aimed at releasing the LifeNews crew, he added.

    According to the representative, the situation around journalists, Oleg Sidyakin and Marat Saichenko, “continues to deteriorate.”

    “We know that they’re accused of terrorism, with other far-fetched charges being pressed against them,” he explained.

    Russia intends to raise the issue of “grave violation of the rights of journalists in Ukraine” at a meeting of the OSCE Permanent Council on Thursday, he stressed, adding that the “same question will be asked by delegations from other countries as well.”

    Russia’s permanent mission has passed the address from the country’s National Broadcasting Association to the OSCE leadership, in which the violation against Russian journalists by Kiev’s coup-imposed government are described, Kelin said.

    There are more and more concerns about the obstruction of the media in Ukraine in anticipation of the presidential election in the country on May 25, he concluded.
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    Post  macedonian on Thu May 22, 2014 5:17 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:My point is that those Ukrainian soldiers HAD to pick one side and not stand in the sidelines, but they failed to realize it.
    Now that you've edited your post, it merits a more serious reply:

    Many (if not MOST, or even ALL) of these soldiers are NOT the Nazi type RightSektor or Svoboda guys. They are your average 'Joe' or 'Jack' (or Митре as we say here). Many are young kids just entering adolescence. Now, I don't know about YOU, but when I was in my late teens, I was very much dumber than what I consider myself today. Didn't know how to behave in every situation, and can't start to think how I'd behave if war was going around me back then. So, before you judge these guys as harshly as you do, try to paint yourself in their spot...walk a mile in their shoes. It's rather easy for us random guys sitting in our homes, commenting on an internet forum, debating what's right and wrong...moral or immoral. When faced with a situation like these people do right now, there's no telling how anyone would react. Especially not these guys that only started shaving a few months ago...

    So let's keep it real, and be as considerate as we can.

    --------------------------
    Edit:
    etaepsilonk wrote:Congratulations to you too, buy yourself a medal  Smile

    No need, I got loads of them from my Grandfather and my Grandmother.
    A dozen of Russian ones too. "For bravery" they say. Which is more than I can say about some people who are bravest when typing things on their computer, but lack the same determination when faced with a REAL situation. THEN they show their true faces...nevermind...


    Last edited by macedonian on Thu May 22, 2014 5:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Regular on Thu May 22, 2014 5:17 pm

    Cocky ukrainian soldiers before



    And after


    A very welcomed outcome. I hope we will see more and more of this.  Locals are doing great thing and helping self defence forces I see. Informing or luring them in ambushes.
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    Post  etaepsilonk on Thu May 22, 2014 5:26 pm

    macedonian wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:My point is that those Ukrainian soldiers HAD to pick one side and not stand in the sidelines, but they failed to realize it.
    Now that you've edited your post, it merits a more serious reply:

    Many (if not MOST, or even ALL) of these soldiers are NOT the Nazi type RightSektor or Svoboda guys. They are your average 'Joe' or 'Jack' (or Митре as we say here). Many are young kids just entering adolescence. Now, I don't know about YOU, but when I was in my late teens, I was very much dumber than what I consider myself today. Didn't know how to behave in every situation, and can't start to think how I'd behave if war was going around me back then. So, before you judge these guys as harshly as you do, try to paint yourself in their spot...walk a mile in their shoes. It's rather easy for us random guys sitting in our homes, commenting on an internet forum, debating what's right and wrong...moral or immoral. When faced with a situation like these people do right now, there's no telling how anyone would react. Especially not these guys that only started shaving a few months ago...

    So let's keep it real, and be as considerate as we can.


    For the first bolded part, I agree, but that's how pretty much every civil war rolls.



    For the second, my belief is that a number of personal experience events can make every person react adequately, regardless of intellect and regardless of age. There is a proverb : "desperate times make kids grow faster".
    Well, I'm not some genius to be always correct or something, but in my view, witnessing such events, like installing morale officers in army units, indiscriminate shelling of cities and firing civilians, sending a punitive expedition against a police station (mind you, same event as this recent one), and being too dumb to realize the situation is NOT POSSIBLE.
    And even if they somehow fail to hear gossips, and collect information, their parents definitely don't.


    For the third part, I think I already did that. And I came to conclusion that in situations like this soldiers tend to think that if they stand in the sidelines, they'll come out dry. Unfortunately that's not the case.


    Last edited by etaepsilonk on Thu May 22, 2014 5:40 pm; edited 4 times in total
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    Post  Vann7 on Thu May 22, 2014 5:32 pm

    There are reports on forums that the Ukrainian Soldiers killed today ,was killed by Kiev radical loyal forces for refusing to Fight.
    And they blaming it to the Pro Russian Forces.. Probably the helicopters we saw the video flying low did it?
    If this happens to be confirmed by the survivors of the incident and backed by videos it will be more than enough to divide the
    Ukrainian Army in Half at least.. and massive defections to the Pro Russian Side.

    And when it comes to Lukashenko, i lost all respect for that bastard.. he is more concerned with losing territory than to Saving
    millions of Russians lives under a Nazi occupation. Putin Should remove all economical help to him.. and allow Neo Nazis to take control
    of Belarus.. you will see how quick he change his views if he is on the other side of the conflict and the victim of a coup..and his people assassinated by NATO mercenaries.
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    Post  macedonian on Thu May 22, 2014 5:34 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:For the first bolded part, I agree, but that's how pretty much every civil war rolls.
    For the second, my belief is that a number of personal experience events can make every person react adequately, regardless of intellect and regardless of age.

    That's exactly the point that I was trying to get across.
    Your beliefs might change, when faced with a REAL situation. And it's been empirically proven that age and intellect ARE indeed great factors.


    ---------------------
    edit:
    etaepsilonk wrote:Well, I'm not some genius to be always correct or something, but in my view, witnessing such events, like installing morale officers in army units, indiscriminate shelling of cities and firing civilians, sending a punitive expedition against a police station (mind you, same event as this recent one), and being too dumb to realize the situation is NOT POSSIBLE.

    AFAIK the regular conscripts never had part in those events. Neither did they fire on civilians. But if you can share a link, I'll be the first one to acknowledge that I was proven wrong.


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    Post  Regular on Thu May 22, 2014 5:37 pm

    macedonian wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:My point is that those Ukrainian soldiers HAD to pick one side and not stand in the sidelines, but they failed to realize it.
    Now that you've edited your post, it merits a more serious reply:

    Many (if not MOST, or even ALL) of these soldiers are NOT the Nazi type RightSektor or Svoboda guys. They are your average 'Joe' or 'Jack' (or Митре as we say here). Many are young kids just entering adolescence. Now, I don't know about YOU, but when I was in my late teens, I was very much dumber than what I consider myself today. Didn't know how to behave in every situation, and can't start to think how I'd behave if war was going around me back then. So, before you judge these guys as harshly as you do, try to paint yourself in their spot...walk a mile in their shoes. It's rather easy for us random guys sitting in our homes, commenting on an internet forum, debating what's right and wrong...moral or immoral. When faced with a situation like these people do right now, there's no telling how anyone would react. Especially not these guys that only started shaving a few months ago...

    So let's keep it real, and be as considerate as we can.
    Who cares if they are soldiers or clerks. They represent Junta.
    They represent hostile faction. You think they have never attacked any checkpoints? 
    Think about it, military is an institution and yes kids are the ones that die there. Been like this for ages. 
    It's not a tragedy for us, separatist supporters, not even drop of sympathy here, not even from my wife.
    Sorry, but I would have no bodily fluids if I would cry for every unfair victim in Ukraine. This place is a bloody mess and the more decisive actions are taken the less people will die in a long run. Or else it will drag like this for years.
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    Post  macedonian on Thu May 22, 2014 5:42 pm

    Regular wrote:
    macedonian wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:My point is that those Ukrainian soldiers HAD to pick one side and not stand in the sidelines, but they failed to realize it.
    Now that you've edited your post, it merits a more serious reply:

    Many (if not MOST, or even ALL) of these soldiers are NOT the Nazi type RightSektor or Svoboda guys. They are your average 'Joe' or 'Jack' (or Митре as we say here). Many are young kids just entering adolescence. Now, I don't know about YOU, but when I was in my late teens, I was very much dumber than what I consider myself today. Didn't know how to behave in every situation, and can't start to think how I'd behave if war was going around me back then. So, before you judge these guys as harshly as you do, try to paint yourself in their spot...walk a mile in their shoes. It's rather easy for us random guys sitting in our homes, commenting on an internet forum, debating what's right and wrong...moral or immoral. When faced with a situation like these people do right now, there's no telling how anyone would react. Especially not these guys that only started shaving a few months ago...

    So let's keep it real, and be as considerate as we can.
    Who cares if they are soldiers or clerks. They represent Junta.
    They represent hostile faction. You think they have never attacked any checkpoints? 
    Think about it, military is an institution and yes kids are the ones that die there. Been like this for ages. 
    It's not a tragedy for us, separatist supporters, not even drop of sympathy here, not even from my wife.

    Many of them JOINED the separatist forces. Not right away, but gradually, when they started realizing how things stand...AND nearly 80% of the soldiers in Crimea chose to serve in the Russian forces. If people in charge at the Kremlin thought the same way many of you here do, there'd be far more problems for Russia than there are now. So I'm glad that it's heads wiser than yours in charge of the situation.
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    Post  etaepsilonk on Thu May 22, 2014 5:43 pm

    to macedonian:

    Dude, wait until I finish my comment  Smile 



    "That's exactly the point that I was trying to get across.
    Your beliefs might change, when faced with a REAL situation. And it's been empirically proven that age and intellect ARE indeed great factors."

    They may change, or they may not change. You can't know that, and neither do I, frankly.
    For second part, again, personal experience makes people learn quickly.




    "AFAIK the regular conscripts never had part in those events. Neither did they fire on civilians. But if you can share a link, I'll be the first one to acknowledge that I was proven wrong."

    I meant Kiev forces as a whole, not particular units.
    In my opinion, if you see your side committing atrocities, and by heart don't want to do them yourself, then you should defect or desert, because probability of you being ordered to do the same is pretty high.

    So, I still stand by my point. Those soldiers failed to realize that standing in the sidelines is not an option, and paid the price. You may call it a natural selection. Hopefully, other grunts will be smarter in this regard.


    Last edited by etaepsilonk on Thu May 22, 2014 6:02 pm; edited 4 times in total
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    Post  macedonian on Thu May 22, 2014 5:46 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:to macedonian:

    Dude, wait until I finish my comment  Smile 



    "That's exactly the point that I was trying to get across.
    Your beliefs might change, when faced with a REAL situation. And it's been empirically proven that age and intellect ARE indeed great factors."

    They may change, or they may not change. You can't know that, and neither do I, frankly.
    For second part, again, personal experience makes people learn quickly.

    True. I'm glad we agree on that.
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    Post  Regular on Thu May 22, 2014 5:48 pm

    macedonian wrote:

    Many of them JOINED the separatist forces. Not right away, but gradually, when they started realizing how things stand...AND nearly 80% of the soldiers in Crimea chose to serve in the Russian forces. If people in charge at the Kremlin thought the same way many of you here do, there'd be far more problems for Russia than there are now. So I'm glad that it's heads wiser than yours in charge of the situation.
    Chechens joined Russians even after Russians levelled their cities and literally wiped most of the men population. Wink 
    The thing is separatists have to fight. You can't just wait and think that enemy will join You. 
    And we still don't know where those BMPs were heading. It could very well be that innocent lives were saved. It's not just NatGuard that kills people You know. NatGuard is reinforced by military.
    And calm down Your emotions man. More people will die in bigger numbers. You are from region where more terrible things happened so why You are being so sympathetic and soft to an ENEMY? I will have a shot of rakia for them if You wish.
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    Post  arpakola on Thu May 22, 2014 5:52 pm

    A Pro-Russian man demonstrates the array of weapons which are claimed to be taken from Ukrainian soldiers after a raid, in the town of Horlivka, eastern Ukraine, on Thursday, May 22, 2014.
    The Situation in the Ukraine. #4 - Page 21 14242060592_09b6efd810_o
    The Situation in the Ukraine. #4 - Page 21 14242060662_f43a754e54_o
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    Post  macedonian on Thu May 22, 2014 5:56 pm

    Regular wrote:
    macedonian wrote:

    Many of them JOINED the separatist forces. Not right away, but gradually, when they started realizing how things stand...AND nearly 80% of the soldiers in Crimea chose to serve in the Russian forces. If people in charge at the Kremlin thought the same way many of you here do, there'd be far more problems for Russia than there are now. So I'm glad that it's heads wiser than yours in charge of the situation.
    Chechens joined Russians even after Russians levelled their cities and literally wiped most of the men population. Wink 
    The thing is separatists have to fight. You can't just wait and think that enemy will join You. 
    And we still don't know where those BMPs were heading. It could very well be that innocent lives were saved. It's not just NatGuard that kills people You know. NatGuard is reinforced by military.
    And calm down Your emotions man. More people will die in bigger numbers. You are from region where more terrible things happened so why You are being so sympathetic and soft to an ENEMY? I will have a shot of rakia for them if You wish.

    Yeah, go ahead and have some Rakija. It's stronger than Vodka, so it should cool things down. Cheers to that.
    Things is, that most of these guys (regular conscripts in the Ukrainian army) don't know if they consider themselves Russian or Ukrainian.
    This is not some division that they grew up with. They speak Russian, share the customs and the religion with the people they are supposed to fight against. And most of them REFUSE to fight with the locals or the DPR forces. I'm being sympathetic to these guys. Why should they see the US as their ally?! Why not Russia?! This will be over one day, and people will either live together, or separate. I'd rather have them in Russia's campus than the US's. How's this strange to recognize?
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    Post  etaepsilonk on Thu May 22, 2014 6:06 pm

    Regular wrote:
    macedonian wrote:

    Many of them JOINED the separatist forces. Not right away, but gradually, when they started realizing how things stand...AND nearly 80% of the soldiers in Crimea chose to serve in the Russian forces. If people in charge at the Kremlin thought the same way many of you here do, there'd be far more problems for Russia than there are now. So I'm glad that it's heads wiser than yours in charge of the situation.
    Chechens joined Russians even after Russians levelled their cities and literally wiped most of the men population. Wink 

    Are you assuming that pro russian chechens themselves didn't want some cities, belonging to some other factions, levelled?  Wink

    And this brings that Chechnya, IMO, is not comparable to Ukraine.
    The population of the latter is not that factionalized. A lot of western ukrainians actually support seps  Smile 


    Last edited by etaepsilonk on Thu May 22, 2014 6:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Regular on Thu May 22, 2014 6:11 pm

    They were levelling it alright before Russians even entered first war Smile It was Russian invasion that united them.
    And I know it's not compatible.


    Last edited by Regular on Thu May 22, 2014 6:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

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