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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #3

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    etaepsilonk

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    Post  etaepsilonk Sat May 03, 2014 11:08 pm

    Airbornewolf wrote:

    of course you got "fancy" ways of detonation, like Radio-controlled, command wired or cellphone. but these are rather means that are either expensive or time-consuming. not to mention you need someone that can build them without blowing themselves up. unlike the basic "pressure plate" where two metal ends close the electric cirquit as soon something pressures the two contacts together...the above ones already have a closed electric circuit that triggers the blast but rely on primitive cirquitboards to switch the electric cirquit to the primer.

    Wire-controlled IEDs are pretty simple, and bystanders can't set them off.
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    Post  Regular Sat May 03, 2014 11:15 pm

    Firebird wrote:I will reply to some other pts later.
    But before then, why aren't the self defence forces using more IEDs etc?
    I mean these things can be homemade if they aren't slipped into the area.

    That stops tanks, APCs etc driving into anywhere.

    PS reading "John Kerry demands Russia w/ds support for separatists". I really hope that piece of shit dies an agonisingly painful death.
    Along with many others I could mention in W-ton, Brussels and Kiev.
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    Post  TR1 Sat May 03, 2014 11:17 pm

    Flyingdutchman wrote:
    Firebird wrote:I will reply to some other pts later.
    But before then, why aren't the self defence forces using more IEDs etc?
    I mean these things can be homemade if they aren't slipped into the area.

    That stops tanks, APCs etc driving into anywhere.

    PS reading "John Kerry demands Russia w/ds support for separatists". I really hope that piece of shit dies an agonisingly painful death.
    Along with many others I could mention in W-ton, Brussels and Kiev.

    Just a different point of view and you wish someone a painfull death??

    BTW come on everyone knows there are Russian Spec ops in Ukraine.

    Everyone knows is not evidence.

    That is like me saying "Come on, everyone knows CIA is behind Maidan".

    If Russian spec ops was actually comitted, do u really think all those Ukrainian BTRs would be driving into the disputed cities? They would be burning within 10 minutes.
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    Post  Flyingdutchman Sat May 03, 2014 11:28 pm

    TR1 wrote:

    Everyone knows is not evidence.

    That is like me saying "Come on, everyone knows CIA is behind Maidan".

    If Russian spec ops was actually comitted, do u really think all those Ukrainian BTRs would be driving into the disputed cities? They would be burning within 10 minutes.

    Yes if they were commited they would be burning, but i mean there are russian spec-ops somewhere in Ukraine for sure but they will probably stay hided and train some pro-russian forces maybe.
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    Post  Firebird Sat May 03, 2014 11:31 pm

    macedonian wrote:
    Firebird wrote:The junta has no soft power in its own right. Its pr to the cvilised world is terrible... because they are Nazis.
    Even the "respectable" side to it ie that piece of shit Tymoshenko, talks about building militias and using Shite Sector's Banderites.

    So its sole rationale for anything is what force it can use. You dont read poetry to a mugger or a would be murderer.

    History is full of fools who thought they could negotiate with tyrants and "appeal to their reasoning and sense of morals".

    The atrocities are happening, because the junta are convinced they will get away with them.

    I'm sure the middle ground Ukrainians would love to see the back of the right wing scum. Notice the fights between Shite Sector and Maiden-muppets this week! Maybe they're afraid to protest after the atrocities in Odessa...

    Listen to me: They don't make you a General because you're good at shooting and blowing stuff up, they make you a General because of your abilities to THINK and come up with a proper strategy to surprise the enemy and inflict heavy loses on him. If Russia takes out the invisible people running this from the background, there's nothing the muscles on the ground can do, but act as cannon fodder. It's like a human being: You can live without your hand, even both of them, hell you can live without ALL of your limbs...but take out the head, and it's merely a corpse.

    The Ancient Barbarians didn't really have a "brain". Its the same with terror cells. They can cause huge damage even without a hierachy.
    And in this case, we're talking tanks vs baseball bats.

    The brain is many individuals, most like some US based, some oligarchs, but also a very large number of far right loons from W Ukrainian regions. You only need look how Hitler started off with a smallish following but gained almost total loyalty. Retards got into positions of power. As is happening today.

    The longer this goes on, the longer the enemy has time to get its own people in key positions. And have hi tec equipment flood thro the borders from its number one backer..

    In intl law terms, the situation is rather bizarre. As even numerous western commentators have said. These places, in the SEast, even Kiev, were Russian land in the 20th C. And only became Ukrainian because it was an administative issue not a nationality one. Would they ever have become part of a Ukraine if the Banderite nonsense was expected to re-erupt? Ofcourse not, Stalin, Brezhnev, ANY of them would have crushed Fascism to a pulp. Did any of the Donbass people ever choose to live in a Ukraine, let alone one run by Banderites? Ofcourse not. They lived in the USSR. Then the CIS. And the understanding was that it was one country, with Moscow at the head of it all. As the post USSR treaties recognised. My background was as a lawyer btw, and there are certainly many aspects of this that wholeheartedly support a robust Russian method of resolving the matter.
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    Post  etaepsilonk Sat May 03, 2014 11:33 pm

    Flyingdutchman wrote:
    TR1 wrote:

    Everyone knows is not evidence.

    That is like me saying "Come on, everyone knows CIA is behind Maidan".

    If Russian spec ops was actually comitted, do u really think all those Ukrainian BTRs would be driving into the disputed cities? They would be burning within 10 minutes.

    Yes if they were commited they would be burning, but i mean there are russian spec-ops somewhere in Ukraine for sure but they will probably stay hided and train some pro-russian forces maybe.

    If there are russian spec-ops in Ukraine, then why haven't we seen them in this information age?

    I remind you that we did see foreign FACs in Libyan war. And it's not like they weren't trying to hide  Smile


    As for pro-russian support, there's a separatist coordinating council set up in Crimea, Eupatoria.
    Even some military training camps can be established there, and fighters can be transported to and from Ukraine by boat.

    Such way cannot be traced easily, and I'm sure that Yanukovich would be more than happy to lend some of his yachts, while in exchange, for example, not being sent to the Hague  Wink


    Last edited by etaepsilonk on Sat May 03, 2014 11:49 pm; edited 3 times in total
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    Post  Firebird Sat May 03, 2014 11:43 pm

    Airbornewolf wrote:
    Firebird wrote:I will reply to some other pts later.
    But before then, why aren't the self defence forces using more IEDs etc?
    I mean these things can be homemade if they aren't slipped into the area.

    That stops tanks, APCs etc driving into anywhere.


    this is not meanth as a insult, but clearly you are not experienced or educated in IED's and their effects on both combatants and civilian population.

    without giving an in-depth explanation and nature of IED's ill point out the main problem with them. in all the Jala-Jala IED vids in the middle east you only see the "desired" effects.

    and not what often goes wrong with IED's. and thats its triggered by civilians, kids that pick it up or even own troops. as i have seen in Afghanistan using IED's are just as likely to turn the local population against you when a car with women and kids hits it than as you get "lucky" and strike an enemy with it.  the pro-russian activist are not terrorists, they are just normal people that are fed up being ignored by Kiev and being threatened by Nazi's. there is a certain level of extremism or ...unreasonable hate involved for someone to be willing to put an explosive in the ground and think "i do not care if i blow up 100 of my own people, as long i hit 1 enemy its fine".

    that said, ... you can not build an IED like you are reading a step-by-step manual of LEGO while you are putting it together. it requires skill and knowledge and quite often an IED builder blows himself up. some parts are easy to aqquire for an IED. but the primer and explosive itself are rather hard to come by. the Taliban use heavily HME (Home Made Explosive) witch is made from fertilizer mixed with a couple of other things. but even that has to be mixed right or it does nothing at all when the primer goes off.


    of course you got "fancy" ways of detonation, like Radio-controlled, command wired or cellphone. but these are rather means that are either expensive or time-consuming. not to mention you need someone that can build them without blowing themselves up. unlike the basic "pressure plate" where two metal ends close the electric cirquit as soon something pressures the two contacts together...the above ones already have a closed electric circuit that triggers the blast but rely on primitive cirquitboards to switch the electric cirquit to the primer.

    and practically speaking....i really do not see the pro-russian side activists with a pickaxe going all out on the hardened road to dig a hole and hope for a Kiev tank to drive over that freshly-dug-up-but-very-questionable-hole in the ground covered with sand. most displacements i saw from Kiev vehicles was over hardened roads anyway.

    i am really not going to say here online how its best to neutralise enemy vehicles in urban area's. but there are way easier and more effective means to counter Kiev vehicles. especially urban area's. i really do not want to go throw fuel on the fire here and neither do i think its a good idea to talk casual or out of personal frustration about deploying weaponry against another side. thats just my personal opinion.

    Well, living in Britain, and knowing a few people from both sides of the N Irish problem, I know a little about explosives. (When the Net started, kids would freely mess around with "cookbooks" available online - before authorities really clamped down).

    Yes I agree that explosives are dangerous (obviously!). But so is standing infront of a tank with a baseball bat, or manning a checkpt with a firearm. Its about the "least undesirable choice".

    Fertiliser, diesel, fireworks, other compounds made from regular supermarket items all give a range of effects. Remote control toys, alarm clocks aren't perfect mechanisms. But they do work. I agree, it would require substantial organisation and discipline to minimise the risk to innocent parties.

    A huge amount of the IRA's campaign was done using homemade items. Including absolutely MASSIVE blasts in London.

    Ofcourse they wont be as effective as professionally manufactured items. But its better than being killed by a Fascist driven tank.

    Also, I agree that this is not an ideal place to have a discussion about activities that could cause huge damage, if read by the wrong person.
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    Post  Firebird Sat May 03, 2014 11:47 pm

    Flyingdutchman wrote:
    Firebird wrote:I will reply to some other pts later.
    But before then, why aren't the self defence forces using more IEDs etc?
    I mean these things can be homemade if they aren't slipped into the area.

    That stops tanks, APCs etc driving into anywhere.

    PS reading "John Kerry demands Russia w/ds support for separatists". I really hope that piece of shit dies an agonisingly painful death.
    Along with many others I could mention in W-ton, Brussels and Kiev.

    Just a different point of view and you wish someone a painfull death??

    BTW come on everyone knows there are Russian Spec ops in Ukraine.

    Well Hitler's view was that all Slavs should die. Are you saying I shouldnt wish Hitler a painful death, because "he had a different pt of view".

    Is John Kerry above condemnation because he wears a smart suit and is American. Rather than wears a Right Sector armband.

    America's political class (both sides) have committed genocides in numerous countries and invasions of many countries in the past 70 or so years. Kerry is the latest, we all know that.

    To deny America and Kerry had a role in replacing a Ukrainian democracy with Fascists would be plain ridiculous.
    Many of his comments have been as obscene as Yarosh, Farion and the like. Ofcourse he deserves a painful death.
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    Post  sepheronx Sun May 04, 2014 12:08 am

    dont worry what Kerry says. The guy is an idiot. He is nitpicking at Israel now as well for the whole Palestinian thing. The guy is trying to score browny points to whomever/wherever to whatever is considered popular these days. Putin doesn't even need to listen to any demands, cause the demands will change over time, just like the whole red line thing which showed their own incompetence.
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    Post  Vann7 Sun May 04, 2014 12:41 am



    I can say for certain ,that Russia have enough world public opinion support to invade Ukraine and restore order and kick the army
    that are killing civilians and threatening them like Terrorist. Perhaps not enough Governments support ,specially not NATO ,but when it comes to the average joe..comments in forums in media sites.. like youtube ,RT ,CNN.. then a signficant number of people see Obama doing something wrong in Ukraine and that Putin should interfere. So my bet is Russia will invade not a matter of IF but when.. Perhaps he will activate special forces first.. and clear and secure the path for tanks with army invasion first. But if Russia invades they will not be able to move away of the eastern and southern zones. Russia cannot fight civilians even if the pro nazis..the support of Kiev in the capital and west is very strong unfortunately. And for sure many NATO troops deployed there.


    On another note ,even though the Ukrainian army sucks big time.. contrary to the georgian one.. Ukraine army will have the advantage of bordering NATO nations with unlimited supply of modern weapons and blackwater thugs from NATO helping in the lines. in Short if Russia invade it could be a long AFganistan unless they promote a coup there. The junta in kiev is already calling for NATO mercenaries to help maintain them in power.
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    Post  Regular Sun May 04, 2014 12:50 am

    You are on a roll Firebird! x2 x3 x4
    I'm surprised how easily Ukrainian forces can move in without real resistance. 

    I can think other ways than IEDs that would cause pain to Ukrainians. 
    SBU troops are limited. They ride on top of BTR's so they are extremely vulnerable. Seperatists could improvise impassible roadblocks and they should mix up road signs that would lead SBU soldiers into ambush. You can easily lob grenades or fire RPG's from 5 store buildings before You are noticed. You can "rent" a balconies in several buildings and lay death on those POS. 
    Ambushes in the outskirts will lead to many losses on separatist side, but in urban environment small groups can cause damage and retreat. For example hide in someones flat or run away using sewers. 

    Separatists need people with military background ASAP. 
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    Post  flamming_python Sun May 04, 2014 1:02 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:I have a feeling after the Victory Day Parade something big will happen from the Russian side, just like something big (Crimea joining Russia again) happened after the Sochi Winter Olympics.

    Something big will happen on victory day alright - it will be celebrated by Russian tanks in Kiev.

    The government in Kiev is untolerable. Going into east Ukraine will be a huge mess, but there is increasingly no other option - at least what concerns Donetsk and Lugansk, where resistance is strengthening and local opinon there is hugely against the Kiev junta. They are being killed though, and not just the armed rebels - today a car with 5 girls was shot up, one of them died, a 21-year old medical student. Over last night about 5 people were killed and 10 injured; most of them just protestors it seems although a few were rebels. More were killed today.

    Now buildings have been stormed in Lugansk and Donetsk throughout the night by the anti-government protestors, the crowd is enraged not only by the military operation but also by the events in Odessa.

    It's clear the amount of deaths will only ramp up, as Kiev moves ahead with its military operation, and local resistance will only intensify in response.

    The best option would be for Russia to convince the West to press Kiev to withdraw all its forces, but the West has no intention of doing that.

    Therefore, Russia has 2 options:
    a. Invasion of Donetsk and Lugansk regions, forcing the surrender or annihilation of all present Ukrainian military units as well as militias, Pravyj Sektor, Nats Guard formations.
    b. Decapitation strike on Ukrainian government in Kiev, assassination of Turchinov, Yatsenyuk, possibly the Ukrainian MoD head, and other ringleaders. This can be carried out with precision strikes at an opportune time, when they are away from public places.
    Optionally, Yarosh can be left alive - so that he can try and seize the government and in response half the army refuses to take his orders.


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    Post  flamming_python Sun May 04, 2014 1:10 am

    sepheronx wrote:dont worry what Kerry says.  The guy is an idiot.  He is nitpicking at Israel now as well for the whole Palestinian thing.  The guy is trying to score browny points to whomever/wherever to whatever is considered popular these days.  Putin doesn't even need to listen to any demands, cause the demands will change over time, just like the whole red line thing which showed their own incompetence.

    Kerry's only plus point is that he's more competent than Clinton. Which is course is saying nothing, as Clinton was a complete imbecile.

    John Kerry however is simply a doofus that's not suited for the role. He has no experience, until the crisis hit he was hanging around with and learning from the best - Sergej Lavrov. Lavrov was basically mentoring him on how to do his job, their diplomatic teams even exchanged presents and so on shortly before the Winter Olympics.
    The man though that Kyrzaxstan was a real country, I'm sure many other blunders besides. Point is - he's unqualified, he doesn't know shit about the Ukraine or understand the situation there one bit, but the worst part is that he's willfully ignorant - he doesn't even try to understand it. He's naively repeating the same slogans and refusing to budge from his position even when its becoming obvious that civil war is about to erupt in the Ukraine.
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    Post  flamming_python Sun May 04, 2014 1:15 am

    Vann7 wrote:

    I can say for certain ,that Russia have enough world public opinion support to invade Ukraine and restore order and kick the army
    that are killing civilians and threatening them like Terrorist. Perhaps not enough Governments support ,specially not NATO ,but when it comes to the average joe..comments in forums in media sites.. like youtube ,RT ,CNN.. then a signficant number of people see Obama doing something wrong in Ukraine and that Putin should interfere.  So my bet is Russia will invade not a matter of IF but when.. Perhaps he will activate special forces first.. and clear and secure the path for tanks with army invasion first.  But if Russia invades they will not be able to move away of the eastern and southern zones. Russia cannot fight civilians even if the pro nazis..the support of Kiev in the capital and west is very strong unfortunately. And for sure many NATO troops deployed there.


    On another note ,even though the Ukrainian army sucks big time.. contrary to the georgian one.. Ukraine army will have the advantage of bordering NATO nations with unlimited supply of modern weapons and blackwater thugs from NATO helping in the lines. in Short if Russia invade it could be  a long AFganistan unless they promote a coup there. The junta in kiev is already calling for NATO mercenaries to help maintain them in power.

    Kiev is forcing Russia's hand, ordinarily it would be way too early for any military action; rebel support hasn't build up enough in the east yet, and Russia hasn't been able to turn any generals, etc... onto its side in Kiev as of yet (that we know of).
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    Post  Airbornewolf Sun May 04, 2014 1:33 am

    Regular wrote:You are on a roll Firebird! x2 x3 x4
    I'm surprised how easily Ukrainian forces can move in without real resistance. 

    I can think other ways than IEDs that would cause pain to Ukrainians. 
    SBU troops are limited. They ride on top of BTR's so they are extremely vulnerable. Seperatists could improvise impassible roadblocks and they should mix up road signs that would lead SBU soldiers into ambush. You can easily lob grenades or fire RPG's from 5 store buildings before You are noticed. You can "rent" a balconies in several buildings and lay death on those POS. 
    Ambushes in the outskirts will lead to many losses on separatist side, but in urban environment small groups can cause damage and retreat. For example hide in someones flat or run away using sewers. 

    Separatists need people with military background ASAP. 

    it maybe be worth remembering some of those troops on those BTR's got send there pretty much on gun-point by Kiev and their Nazi scum. like the MI-24 pilot they left to die they are considered only tools to the Kiev Junta. the Waffen SS of world war 2 pretty much enforced Hitlers will in the Wehrmacht on the same way. you do as the party pleases or get shot or imprisoned. and if you do not do it maybe they will pay a visit to your fammily if you know what i mean.

    extremely vulnerable is a bit of an overstatement. if you ever went to a range and fired rounds at a moving target at 300 meters without any advanced optics you know thats not easy to hit. and thats without the adrenaline pumping trough your body. even 200 or 100 meters still requires discipline and a steady nerve.

    an average person can throw a grenade 30 meters on ground level, and a grenade is not a light thing its rather a heavy piece of explosive. either because its filled with shrapnell or special components to make it effective in its designed task. a grenade is a dangerous thing but it loses killing potential rather quickly as distance between detonation-target increases.

    on the matter of RPG's. modern day unguided AT weapons are designed to be fired (mostly) from confined spaces. but the older generations that date from the 80's and even some cases 90's are NOT suitable to be used in confined spaces. the combustion comming from such weapons rear can be lethal to its operator and others as the blast can not go anywhere. there is a reason why most AT-rocket's manuals state a 25 meter onubstructed area behind the operator in a 90 degree angle.

    and i find your disregard for "opposition" response worrying. you describe in your post like the men on those tanks are idiots and have no realisation of the threats they go in.

    did you run your own comments realistically trough your toughts?. like "hide in someones flat" ?. imagine me, some total stranger out of western europe kicking down your door. telling you at gunpoint to get lost and if you do not i bust your knee with a weapon, and go set up an ambush while you do not even want to be part of the conflict. im sorry regular, but its an misinformed statement you make.

    and do not be so quick to judge pro-russian opposition. to say "im suprised how easily ukrainian forces can move without resistance". things in real life outside of the internet in actual conflict are really nasty. people worry about their loved ones are safe, if themselves are safe, where the next meal comes from, what will happen next, and the uncertainty that comes with war is really causing a lot of stress for their members on the anti-kiev demonstrators.

    war is something everyone has an opinion of, untill it comes to your front door. then all your morals go out the door. its good to remember that these people go trough a human made hell and any of us are in no position to judge.



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    Post  mack8 Sun May 04, 2014 2:02 am

    Therefore, Russia has 2 options:
    a. Invasion of Donetsk and Lugansk regions, forcing the surrender or annihilation of all present Ukrainian military units as well as militias, Pravyj Sektor, Nats Guard formations.

    Yes, this is what is necessary. Forget about the west of Ukraine or Kiev, let them to their own devices. But if Russia does nothing now, it will show weakness, sooner or later the russian ethnic uprising will be crushed with hundreds, maybe thousands killed, and the US scum will have put their missiles and troops right at Russia's borders.

    Intervening in these regions not only serves to protects the russian ethnics there (btw i will add Transnistria too), maybe have a new republic, maybe unite them with Russia, but also creates a buffer zone against the US led puppets. Doing nothing will make the US led scum even bolder, like i said next will be Belarus, asian allies and culminating with fermenting unrest in Russia itself, just as they did during the anti-Putin "demonstrations". War is horrible, and me i feel terribly, terribly uncomfortable to advocate anything like an intervention, but unfortunately, Russia cannot reason with the american scumbags. It HAS to stand firm, there is no other choice. The other option is to be swallowed into this disgusting orwellian neo-empire like most of Europe has been so far, spineless corporate vassals having sold their  countries and  peoples against their will to the US scumbags... *** the US, may they rot in hell!
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    Post  Firebird Sun May 04, 2014 2:11 am

    I don't think Regular is criticising the Resistance. Far from it. More to the point, he's making an observation about what is being reported.
    And some of us are puzzled at the balance of what we are seeing.

    There's tremendously courageous work being done - by men AND women too. AND some highly skilled work being done. For instance shooting down choppers etc.

    But we haven't seen any APC's blown up so far, that I recall.
    Many of the APC troops look embarrassed at being there.

    Maybe the Pravy Sektor animals had been helicoptered in, because they saw their APC's would be vulnerable.

    My suspicion is that the Resistance were a little surprised at how quickly the junta has begun its attacks.
    Most of the Resistance aren't experienced soldiers. So yes, as Regular says, trained military people ARE an essential moving fwd. (Ideally 50k rolling in from across the East - but thats a different topic).

    PS there's other areas I'm thinking of that I'd think would be vulnerable. Obviously the gas could be switched off. Phone networks, electricity. The computer programs the Ukraine runs on (banking, political, utilities, air traffic control etc etc) were probably mostly written by Russians. Electromagnetic Pulse technology can be used in numerous areas. Surely a lot of sabotage can be done. I mean most of the Ukraine was actually *built* by Russia. The plans of sewers, buildings etc would be known inside out in many cases. The country could be brought to a standstill in numerous ways. Russia knows the country almost inside out.

    Low frequency sound cannons, ADS systems (cause a burning sensation), drones. Bribing military leaders to defect etc etc.
    I'm a little puzzled why we havent seen much heavy machinery defect to the pro Eastern side yet. (Altho many have refused Kiev orders).
    Even things like cloud seeding to cause floods could just send a virtually bankrupt Fascist state further down.
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    Post  Regular Sun May 04, 2014 4:38 am

    it maybe be worth remembering some of those troops on those BTR's got send there pretty much on gun-point by Kiev and their Nazi scum. like the MI-24 pilot  they left to die they are considered only tools to the Kiev Junta. the Waffen SS of world war 2 pretty much enforced Hitlers will in the Wehrmacht on the same way. you do as the party pleases or get shot or imprisoned. and if you do not do it maybe they will pay a visit to your fammily if you know what i mean. 

    Well if You seen in videos people who didn't want to shoot at their brothers wasted their ammo into air. And people were cheering them.
    But now we see black men. Those SBU dogs and they are turncoats. They serve new master. Berkut got blamed for SBU killings(Berkut never had snipers) and most of them got away with nothing cause new Ukraine had to keep them as their only reliable fist. Now Ukraine is praising SBU troops like they are heroes.
    Pilots are professional soldiers, they can always QUIT. Same goes to NatGuard, Interior Troops or SF guys we seen there. They have an option. Separatists DON'T. 


    extremely vulnerable is a bit of an overstatement. if you ever went to a range and fired rounds at a moving target at 300 meters without any advanced optics you know thats not easy to hit. and thats without the adrenaline pumping trough your body. even 200 or 100 meters still requires discipline and a steady nerve. 
    Extremely vulnerable from small arms or fragmentations. It doesn't matter if You are in BTR-60 or in Namer if You go deep into enemy territory with light troops and without a plan then You are risking big loses. It's a show of force a punitive operation that targets unarmed civilians.
    There are hundreds of ways how to make moving target unmovable. Easiest one is fire from elevated positions on leading vehicle to make it stop to dismount troops. By the time it will take BTR or dismounted soldiers to react shooting position can be deserted and then RPG can come in handy. There is no need to take on full force, but to leave injured people, damaged transport and cause disarray. 


    an average person can throw a grenade 30 meters on ground level, and a grenade is not a light thing its rather a heavy piece of explosive. either because its filled with shrapnell or special components to make it effective in its designed task. a grenade is a dangerous thing but it loses killing potential rather quickly as distance between detonation-target increases. 

    Not all grenades are filled with shrapnel. But I imagine it would be have great effect on those exposed. Even thick pipe bombs. As we seen on some videos people were throwing stuff at BTRs in Kramatorsk. If You are on the building you can arch it no one can really spot You. 


    like "hide in someones flat" ?. imagine me, some total stranger out of western europe kicking down your door. telling you at gunpoint to get lost and if you do not i bust your knee with a weapon,  and go set up an ambush while you do not even want to be part of the conflict. im sorry regular, but its an misinformed statement you make. 

    It's a warzone. Did Russians ask people in Stalingrad if they could hide in those buildings? Separatists are the people not someone from western Europe. They don't have to threaten as they are the ones protecting from threats.


    and do not be so quick to judge pro-russian opposition. to say "im suprised how easily ukrainian forces can move without resistance". things in real life outside of the internet in actual conflict are really nasty. people worry about their loved ones are safe, if themselves are safe, where the next meal comes from, what will happen next, and the uncertainty that comes with war is really causing a lot of stress for their members on the anti-kiev demonstrators. 

    I'm not judging. I only said what we all seen. It was lack of armed resistance.
    I've almost zero training in urban environment, but I do know what is an ambush and I expect veterans from Afghanistan might know more tricks than me. 
    How many more people have to die? Ukrainians are trigger happy and civilians are dying. 
    Someone has to make a stand even a symbolic one. Like in Odessa. Or else loss of life will grow everyday. Kiev will never stop until people will be subjected by fear.


    war is something everyone has an opinion of, untill it comes to your front door. then all your morals go out the door. its good to remember that these people go trough a human made hell and any of us are in no position to judge

    Yes, it's my opinion, not a sentence. I do support them.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Sun May 04, 2014 5:23 am

    Russia shouldn't invade Ukraine, instead they should create a No-Fly zone with S-400's, Iskander-M's, Su-34's on stand by with no intention on using them but to scare the Coup Kiev govt. into submission unless Yatz wants to get froggy than those pieces will be there to disect him. Russia should finance a proxy war were RPG-29's and Metis-M1's end up finding their way to the self-defense forces to pop-corn the T-80U derivative Oplot tanks, Grozny Style!!! Taresenko shitting his pants with his mediocre red-herring Oplot tanks being carved and gutted like a fish would simply be priceless! Razz Embarassed  Twisted Evil
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    Post  collegeboy16 Sun May 04, 2014 5:43 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:Russia shouldn't invade Ukraine, instead they should create a No-Fly zone with S-400's, Iskander-M's, Su-34's on stand by with no intention on using them but to scare the Coup Kiev govt. into submission unless Yatz wants to get froggy than those pieces will be there to disect him. Russia should finance a proxy war were RPG-29's and Metis-M1's end up finding their way to the self-defense forces to pop-corn the T-80U derivative Oplot tanks, Grozny Style!!! Taresenko shitting his pants with his mediocre red-herring Oplot tanks being carved and gutted like a fish would simply be priceless! Razz Embarassed  Twisted Evil
    imo the russkies should only go for decaf strikes, tho with the shock and awe value ramped up over 9000. There should be an announcement- an ultimatum that anyone who sides with the nzis would be crushed mercilessly. then use of precision munitions against those nazi fcks and thier subordinates would be nice, and it should be done throughly too.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Sun May 04, 2014 6:35 am

    German business called Angela Merkel to abandon sanctions

    Large companies do not ask Germany harm business

    Several major German companies have turned to Angela Merkel request not to support the U.S. initiative to tighten sanctions against Russia. According to the Wall Street Journal , said about this, in particular, BASF, Siemens, Volkswagen, Adidas and Deutsche Bank.

    "As the crisis in Ukraine, German officials are faced with the flood of phone calls from business executives with calls not to take steps that would hurt their business interests in Russia", - the newspaper writes.

    The bilateral trade volume between Germany and Russia was € 76 billion in 2013. At Moscow accounts for about 3% of German exports, but it receives from Germany Russia consumed about a third of the country of oil and gas, says WSJ.

    "If we were asked what we, as business leaders, we can make a statement, then we would say, sit down at the negotiating table and resolve the situation peacefully," - said Eckhard Cordes, Chairman of the Eastern Committee of German Economy and former head of Daimler AG.

    Angela Merkel, U.S. President Barack Obama: no more sanctions sure WSJ.

    What other sanctions threaten Russia
    EU intends not only to impose sanctions against Russian officials, but also to reduce dependence on external supplies of Russian energy resources - this European Council President Herman Van Rompuy announced at the end of the two-day EU summit held in Brussels. Replace Russian energy planning in Europe through imports of U.S. shale gas and increasing the share of renewable and nuclear energy. Read more

    How to blacken lists
    U.S. and European Union imposed new sanctions against Russia, laid the blame on her for the escalation of the crisis in Ukraine. The most radical Washington in advanced black list includes high-ranking Russian politicians, businessmen and 17 companies. Brussels traditionally more cautious. But in both cases, sanctions widened in the expected direction and, in fact, do not add risk. Read more

    Maria Zholobova

    http://kommersant.ru/doc/2464586
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Sun May 04, 2014 6:42 am

    collegeboy16 wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:Russia shouldn't invade Ukraine, instead they should create a No-Fly zone with S-400's, Iskander-M's, Su-34's on stand by with no intention on using them but to scare the Coup Kiev govt. into submission unless Yatz wants to get froggy than those pieces will be there to disect him. Russia should finance a proxy war were RPG-29's and Metis-M1's end up finding their way to the self-defense forces to pop-corn the T-80U derivative Oplot tanks, Grozny Style!!! Taresenko shitting his pants with his mediocre red-herring Oplot tanks being carved and gutted like a fish would simply be priceless! Razz Embarassed  Twisted Evil
    imo the russkies should only go for decaf strikes, tho with the shock and awe value ramped up over 9000. There should be an announcement- an ultimatum that anyone who sides with the nzis would be crushed mercilessly. then use of precision munitions against those nazi fcks and thier subordinates would be nice, and it should be done throughly too.

    Ha ha I could see Yatz and Turchinov running around like chickens with their heads' cut off with their scalps' on fire, screaming "After this I won't have any hair left!!!" Iskander-M's and Tochka-U's between Yatz eyes, no new eye lens prescription will help, no amount of lasik eye surgery will fix that lol!
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    Post  gaurav Sun May 04, 2014 6:53 am

    Yes, Russia can survive easily with such sanctions, because EU exports

    I was replying to some thoughts going on in this topic
    .. like Russia invading Berlin, attacking Berlin and all that.
    From my point of view Russia nuking Berlin and all that was useless(in appropriate bragging) so that why I replied to it.

    Secondly , it would be preferable to avoid sector wise sanctions, if that could be avoided.

    Anyway your analysis is good. Thanks for that.
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    Post  gaurav Sun May 04, 2014 8:11 am

    The Eunuchs of ODESSA preparing for blood bath.
    These female vampires at their work in Odessa.
    Femen group now on steroids with blood lurching from their crazy maidanuts..

    The f#$% ass#$% ...

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #3 - Page 36 20140503-132013



    Another one ..


    The Situation in the Ukraine. #3 - Page 36 20140503-132028



    They look like going to their blood bath sessions..

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #3 - Page 36 20140503-131943


    All their vkon links are given in a website I will find it and post it here..

    Here those who prepared the death from Odessa. Remember them!

    Extremist spilled Molotov cocktails bottled in Odessa, removed their page VKontakte. But their names are already known.

    This Christina Yizhak Daria Marien (Address: Odessa, ln. French, № 23, ap.6), Alla Kolesnik, Somebody Katerina O..

    Katerina Olegivna: vk.com/kvi1o4ka88

    Alla Kolesnik: http://vk.com/id14613516

    Khristina Yizhak: vk.com / yozhikontour

    Darya Marien: vk.com / dari vk.com/kvi1o4ka88

    And also:

    https://vk.com/vitina_alyonochka

    https://vk.com/liliananas
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    Post  macedonian Sun May 04, 2014 8:25 am

    Something has changed after the Lavrov-Kerry phone call.
    Western media is reporting things objectively (for the most part). I've NEVER seen such a 180∘ turn in the past. Never.

    I can only explain it with one of the following:

    • Some sort of serious threat by Lavrov
    • Some sort of compensation agreed between Russia and the West
    • They are just playing honest, only to make a surprise attack (This is the most plausible scenario IMHO)
    • The ProRussians have captured foreign (read NATO) soldiers/mercs, and the west is afraid of another scandal
    • The West have revised their strategy (knowing smth we don't) and concluded that they cannot win at this point, so they'll try at a latter date (a la Yushchenko/Timoshenko fiasco)

    That's it. That's all I can come up with.
    There is also the remote possibility that the West have come to their senses, but I don't want to go all science fiction in this post.

    Whatever it is Russia should not trust these people (the West). They've proven time and again their true face, and to take them at their word would be more than naive at this point - it'd be downright stupid.
    No, Russia should continue its preparation expecting the worst possible scenario.
    IMHO

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