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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    zg18
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #2 - Page 34 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  zg18 Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:23 pm

    About sanctions and economic interdependence between Russia & West (Germany) from Croatian forum:

    Since last week , Russia main theme of world media for events in Ukraine , I would write something related to the sanctions that the West could impose , and that according to some, could bring down the economy of the Russian Federation .

    The facts of saying that the economy of the Russian Federation is extremely dependent on exports of primary energy , particularly crude oil ( with their associated refinery capacity - petroleum products ) and natural gas that make up 67.5 % of merchandise exports and 17.5 % of GDP. So , it is not dependent to the extent that they remained dependent export of primary energy ( Saudi Arabia , Iran , Kuwait , Iraq , UAE etc. . ) But is dependent to the same extent as the one Germany depends on exports of machinery , automobiles and chemical products ( 61 % of merchandise exports and 25.5 % of GDP) . Also not to be forgotten that Russia meets about 17 % of world demand for natural gas , 11 % crude oil and 11 % for petroleum products . Given the narrow global oil and gas market is written makes a global factor . So Russia and the world are dependent on Russian oil and gas exports .

    Another important fact says that the Russian Federation due to the exports become financially independent country . In translation , Russia , that is, its economy is not financially dependent on the goodwill of the West or the East to finance its consumption and investment . Appearance speaking Russian Federation is not in the role of importer long as it contains the USA , UK , France or Croatia , but exporters long as China , Germany , and until yesterday , and Japan . Thus, the Russian Federation of the 1999th to 2013th in other states cumulatively exported debt by approximately 900 billion USD . Said reservoir makes it economically independent country and that is why the West is so hurt Russia's foreign and domestic policy . In translation , the West can not Russia nothing in her backyard as Russia can not do anything the West ( U.S. ) globally. This makes Russia a regional superpower , the United States and the global superpower .

    I see that some people chant about sankacijama West to export Russian oil and gas . It is simply impossible because contracts are signed , and they signed most of the amounts that the existing infrastructure can support . In translation , the EU can not tell you how tomorrow will no longer import oil and gas from Russia than from Libya and Qatar , primarily because there is no infrastructure for such a thing , and secondly excess production capacity in these exporters . Likewise , Russia can not say the same about the EU. So , in that sense, the cards are stacked and the only thing we both can work through the construction of new infrastructure to provide new suppliers or buyers . We see that Russia is turning to Asia, Europe and Africa , the Middle East and America. But it takes time . In this sense, the Russian foreign exchange revenues from sales of oil and gas are secured . On the other hand , Russia may impose sanctions to say German or French export of chemical products , machinery and cars as an alternative to having it .

    Second, the collapse in crude oil prices and natural gas prices on commodity exchanges also not realistic for this reason that the discrepancy between supply and demand is minimal, and this is confirmed by the prices on the world market . It is simply not there is excess production capacity as there is for example in the global manufacturing industry . Even if by some chance there as the largest OPEC producer on such proposals would hardly have responded positively , as the economies of its member states even more dependent on high cost of primary energy than the Russian economy . Another no less important reason is that , much of today's production of crude oil and natural gas from nekonvecionalnih source is cost effective at today's high prices, in the case of falling prices that production would become unprofitable .

    The fact is , the economic , and thus political power of the West is declining . Germany is better to think twice about which direction they want to develop their economic relations with Russia . Even more so exports to the Russian Federation is almost 40 billion EUR ( EU approximately U.S. $ 123 billion - almost 90 % of their export manufacturing industry ) . And that's part of the pie that its direct competitive China , Korea , Japan and Taiwan are eager to take . Once you lose a customer it is very difficult to restore . Therefore, it is unlikely that Germany would support any sanctions that would accrue deepening crisis with Russia .

    Russia is economically independent country and this fact Western elites hurts. In translation, in much of Spain, Portugal and Croatia to the West appears some undesirable power fot the West of the country economically can bring down on his knees, as long as Russia can not. To illustrate just one example, the Russian government gross debt is 190 billion or 10% of GDP, of which foreign creditors hold approximately 30% of the debt, or 3% of GDP. On the other side of the German national debt is approximately 80%, the U.S. and Britain 90%, France 95%, and the Italian 135% of GDP. For example, the national debt Croatian (state guarantees included) amounted to 82% of GDP, of which foreign creditors hold 42% of the debt.

    From this position of Russia's foreign policy stems Vladimir Putin. The biggest losers in this whole story without a doubt themselves Ukrainians who unknowingly agree to it, that the West (mainly the U.S.) over their backs weighs geopolitical power against the Russian Federation. Paid by consumers of petroleum products due to instability as rising price of crude oil on the market. That means even more USD and EUR for the Russian Federation Vladimir Putin, a decline in the purchasing power of average people in the importing country. Now, the "experts" from Fitch us to say that the current dnaas less risky USD and EUR borrow Italy and Croatia than Russia.

    http://www.forum.hr/showpost.php?p=49259002&postcount=4957

    magnumcromagnon
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #2 - Page 34 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:27 pm

    medo wrote:http://news.yahoo.com/ap-interview-yanukovych-hopes-crimeas-return-125042682.html

    ROSTOV-ON-DON, Russia (AP) — Ukraine's ousted president, Viktor Yanukovych, said Wednesday that he was "wrong" to invite Russian troops into Crimea, and vowed to try to persuade Russia to return the Black Sea peninsula.

    Ukrainian president invite Russian troops into Crimea, so it was not an occupation.

    Yanukovych is such a useless dead weight and incompetent case of a politician, now he's backtracking on what he asked for? Does he not care about 97% of the Crimean people wanted to join Russia? Does he not care that 88% of Ukrainian soldiers stationed in Crimea defected to the Russian military, and was allowed to keep their military rank and status?
    medo
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #2 - Page 34 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  medo Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:33 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:
    medo wrote:
    Ukrainian president invite Russian troops into Crimea, so it was not an occupation.

    And KLA invited foreign troops into Kosovo. It's only a matter of perception.


    ----------------
    Quite an old piece, but not sure if this was posted before:
    http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2014-03-19/news/sns-rt-us-ukraine-crisis-donetsk-governor-20140319_1_crimea-ukrainian-nationalist-pro-moscow-activists

    There is a difference between terrorist group and elected president of state.
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #2 - Page 34 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  etaepsilonk Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:37 pm

    medo wrote:
    There is a difference between terrorist group and elected president of state.

    And as I said, that difference is of one's perception.
    For example, terrorist organisation SNC is recognized as legitimate government of Syria by quite a few countries.
    medo
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    Post  medo Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:42 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    medo wrote:http://news.yahoo.com/ap-interview-yanukovych-hopes-crimeas-return-125042682.html

    ROSTOV-ON-DON, Russia (AP) — Ukraine's ousted president, Viktor Yanukovych, said Wednesday that he was "wrong" to invite Russian troops into Crimea, and vowed to try to persuade Russia to return the Black Sea peninsula.

    Ukrainian president invite Russian troops into Crimea, so it was not an occupation.

    Yanukovych is such a useless dead weight and incompetent case of a politician, now he's backtracking on what he asked for? Does he not care about 97% of the Crimean people wanted to join Russia? Does he not care that 88% of Ukrainian soldiers stationed in Crimea defected to the Russian military, and was allowed to keep their military rank and status?

    Yanukovich betray them all, not only Crimean citizens and Ukrainian soldiers in Crimea, but also south and eastern Ukrainians, who elected him for president. He didn't do his job to protect his country, that Russian troops must come to do a job, which Yanukovich was supposed to do. Crimea is now under Russian protection. What about southeastern Ukrainians? They are now exposed to mercy of nazi groups and western Ukrainian puchist junta.
    medo
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #2 - Page 34 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  medo Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:23 pm

    zg18 wrote:About sanctions and economic interdependence between Russia & West (Germany) from Croatian forum:

    Since last week , Russia main theme of world media for events in Ukraine , I would write something related to the sanctions that the West could impose , and that according to some, could bring down the economy of the Russian Federation .

    The facts of saying that the economy of the Russian Federation is extremely dependent on exports of primary energy , particularly crude oil ( with their associated refinery capacity - petroleum products ) and natural gas that make up 67.5 % of merchandise exports and 17.5 % of GDP. So , it is not dependent to the extent that they remained dependent export of primary energy ( Saudi Arabia , Iran , Kuwait , Iraq , UAE etc. . ) But is dependent to the same extent as the one Germany depends on exports of machinery , automobiles and chemical products ( 61 % of merchandise exports and 25.5 % of GDP) . Also not to be forgotten that Russia meets about 17 % of world demand for natural gas , 11 % crude oil and 11 % for petroleum products . Given the narrow global oil and gas market is written makes a global factor . So Russia and the world are dependent on Russian oil and gas exports .

    Another important fact says that the Russian Federation due to the exports become financially independent country . In translation , Russia , that is, its economy is not financially dependent on the goodwill of the West or the East to finance its consumption and investment . Appearance speaking Russian Federation is not in the role of importer long as it contains the USA , UK , France or Croatia , but exporters long as China , Germany , and until yesterday , and Japan . Thus, the Russian Federation of the 1999th to 2013th in other states cumulatively exported debt by approximately 900 billion USD . Said reservoir makes it economically independent country and that is why the West is so hurt Russia's foreign and domestic policy . In translation , the West can not Russia nothing in her backyard as Russia can not do anything the West ( U.S. ) globally. This makes Russia a regional superpower , the United States and the global superpower .

    I see that some people chant about sankacijama West to export Russian oil and gas . It is simply impossible because contracts are signed , and they signed most of the amounts that the existing infrastructure can support . In translation , the EU can not tell you how tomorrow will no longer import oil and gas from Russia than from Libya and Qatar , primarily because there is no infrastructure for such a thing , and secondly excess production capacity in these exporters . Likewise , Russia can not say the same about the EU. So , in that sense, the cards are stacked and the only thing we both can work through the construction of new infrastructure to provide new suppliers or buyers . We see that Russia is turning to Asia, Europe and Africa , the Middle East and America. But it takes time . In this sense, the Russian foreign exchange revenues from sales of oil and gas are secured . On the other hand , Russia may impose sanctions to say German or French export of chemical products , machinery and cars as an alternative to having it .

    Second, the collapse in crude oil prices and natural gas prices on commodity exchanges also not realistic for this reason that the discrepancy between supply and demand is minimal, and this is confirmed by the prices on the world market . It is simply not there is excess production capacity as there is for example in the global manufacturing industry . Even if by some chance there as the largest OPEC producer on such proposals would hardly have responded positively , as the economies of its member states even more dependent on high cost of primary energy than the Russian economy . Another no less important reason is that , much of today's production of crude oil and natural gas from nekonvecionalnih source is cost effective at today's high prices, in the case of falling prices that production would become unprofitable .

    The fact is , the economic , and thus political power of the West is declining . Germany is better to think twice about which direction they want to develop their economic relations with Russia . Even more so exports to the Russian Federation is almost 40 billion EUR ( EU approximately U.S. $ 123 billion - almost 90 % of their export manufacturing industry ) . And that's part of the pie that its direct competitive China , Korea , Japan and Taiwan are eager to take . Once you lose a customer it is very difficult to restore . Therefore, it is unlikely that Germany would support any sanctions that would accrue deepening crisis with Russia .

    Russia is economically independent country and this fact Western elites hurts. In translation, in much of Spain, Portugal and Croatia to the West appears some undesirable power fot the West of the country economically can bring down on his knees, as long as Russia can not. To illustrate just one example, the Russian government gross debt is 190 billion or 10% of GDP, of which foreign creditors hold approximately 30% of the debt, or 3% of GDP. On the other side of the German national debt is approximately 80%, the U.S. and Britain 90%, France 95%, and the Italian 135% of GDP. For example, the national debt Croatian (state guarantees included) amounted to 82% of GDP, of which foreign creditors hold 42% of the debt.

    From this position of Russia's foreign policy stems Vladimir Putin. The biggest losers in this whole story without a doubt themselves Ukrainians who unknowingly agree to it, that the West (mainly the U.S.) over their backs weighs geopolitical power against the Russian Federation. Paid by consumers of petroleum products due to instability as rising price of crude oil on the market. That means even more USD and EUR for the Russian Federation Vladimir Putin, a decline in the purchasing power of average people in the importing country. Now, the "experts" from Fitch us to say that the current dnaas less risky USD and EUR borrow Italy and Croatia than Russia.

    http://www.forum.hr/showpost.php?p=49259002&postcount=4957


    This is a point here. Low oil and gas prices will far more hurt Arabs as well as US and Canada, which produce oil and gas with expensive process from stones, than Russia. So if prices will go to low, Arabs will lower their pumping to keep prices high, what means only more business for Russia. The only question is payment. If western banks will not support business with Russia, than Russia will go in Iran way, demanding payment in physical gold or Roubles instead in USD or EUR. What consequences will this bring to western economies you could only imagine. How long could EU pay its oil and gas with gold? How much will USD and EUR fall comparing to gold? There are also China and India, who are big buyers of physical gold. Gold backed money will become a new standard and USD and EUR will become only worthless papers. Only in 2013 China import more than 2000 tons of physical gold.
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #2 - Page 34 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  etaepsilonk Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:12 pm

    Hey, medo. Now that Yanukovich (legally elected president and all that) dismissed Russian troops in Ukraine, maybe they should withdraw now?  Laughing 
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    Post  arpakola Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:21 pm

    medo wrote:http://news.yahoo.com/ap-interview-yanukovych-hopes-crimeas-return-125042682.html

    ROSTOV-ON-DON, Russia (AP) — Ukraine's ousted president, Viktor Yanukovych, said Wednesday that he was "wrong" to invite Russian troops into Crimea, and vowed to try to persuade Russia to return the Black Sea peninsula.

    Ukrainian president invite Russian troops into Crimea, so it was not an occupation.

    Yanukovich suffers from bipolar disorder...
    medo
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    Post  medo Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:06 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:Hey, medo. Now that Yanukovich (legally elected president and all that) dismissed Russian troops in Ukraine, maybe they should withdraw now?  Laughing 

    I think he is too late now, as referendum in Crimea is already done and is no more in Ukraine. Yanukovich could now blame only himself as he as president didn't do a job he was supposed to do as president and for what he was elected. As Machiavelli said, if you live defense of your country to foreign ally it is far more expensive as is you defend yourself. He didn't use his army and police to protect his country and than ask Russians for protection. What did he do for Berkut police unit, which defend him and Kiev for months? Nothing, Crimea give them safety. That is why Crimeans vote for Russia. Yanukovich betray them as well as his voters in eastern regions, as his government, as his party and as final act he ask Russia for protection. He sign this ask as president of Ukraine. Referendum is a price of his incompetency.
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    Post  arpakola Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:22 pm

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #2 - Page 34 1239952_606985682728126_1324485903_n

    Blackwater's instructor trains Ukrainian neo-nazis
    Werewolf
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    Post  Werewolf Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:40 pm

    arpakola wrote:The Situation in the Ukraine. #2 - Page 34 1239952_606985682728126_1324485903_n

    Blackwater's instructor trains Ukrainian neo-nazis

    Look at the weapons on the table.

    TAR-21 israeli weapons another proof they got their fingers in coups in countries like it was proven in lybia,syria and egypt.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:24 am

    Yanukovych is such a useless dead weight and incompetent case of a politician, now he's backtracking on what he asked for? Does he not care about 97% of the Crimean people wanted to join Russia? Does he not care that 88% of Ukrainian soldiers stationed in Crimea defected to the Russian military, and was allowed to keep their military rank and status?

    He is a Ukrainian politician... he wants to get re elected so he will say what he thinks the people want and many in the Ukraine want the Crimea... not because they need it or want it, but because they know Russia wants it and they just want to hurt Russia... so who cares what he says or does... he has served his purpose.

    Of course if you want him to change his tune Russia could say to him that he is still the elected leader of Ukraine and they will help return him to rightful power using force if necessary and he will be the strongest supporter of russia... the problem is that returning him to power by force will create a much worse situation for everyone... so be glad he is not happy...  Very Happy 

    And as I said, that difference is of one's perception.
    For example, terrorist organisation SNC is recognized as legitimate government of Syria by quite a few countries.

    And the US was founded by a military coup against a colonial power... the difference is however the Ukraine was a democratic country with non violent ways of changing governments... the change made there was illegal under UKRAINIAN law... the autonomous region of Crimea had just had elections and decided to have a referendum to allow the people of Crimea to speak for themselves... yes... I know it is an alien concept for the west where the elected leader of a country generally decides for themselves who to bomb or invade on a whim and drags the whole country into this or that war, but it is called democracy.

    Hey, medo. Now that Yanukovich (legally elected president and all that) dismissed Russian troops in Ukraine, maybe they should withdraw now?

    There are no Russian troops in Ukraine... only Crimea.

    What did he do for Berkut police unit, which defend him and Kiev for months?

    I read they have been offered jobs in Russia if they want them...

    So far I am still puzzled as to why did Putin seize Crimea. Can you elaborate on this?

    Putin didn't seize anything. The Ukraine became disfunctional and started talking about laws banning the Russian language and new austerity measures, so the newly elected government of the autonomous region of Crimea decided to have a referendum to decide whether to stay with the HMS Titanic (Kiev) or jump into a nice warm comfortable lifeboat (Russia).

    They chose overwhelmingly to get into the lifeboat.

    Cuz it's clear that the seizure of Crimea will not solve any of Russia's problems, it will only create new ones.

    The seizure of the Crimea would be a criminal act that the entire world would condemn. The accepting of the Crimea back into the Russian Federation after the Crimea had a free and fair referendum only the western world and its henchmen would oppose.

    the Crimea was a holiday destination for Russians, it was and is the home of its black sea fleet and is of major historical importance to Russia. Now it is Russian again.

    Suddenly there are 2 millions of new people from a deficit region that need wages and pensions.

    The Russian Government doesn't pay wages except to government employees... do you think all the people in the Crimea are government employees?

    Crimea does have some government employees but also has lots of people who work and pay taxes. It has a lot of ship building companies starved of work and holiday destinations short of tourists... Russians can now holiday in Russia and have boats built by Russian boat makers.. both of which will be good for Russia and the Crimea.

    And Russian economy is facing a huge slowdown, prices of gas have already started falling and maxed out oil prices will start soon.

    Ukraine got a subsidy on its gas for the rent on the BSF base... now they will lose that subsidy and also promised subsidies will be lost as the Ukraine turns to the EU.

    As energy prices drop then the cost of living goes down in Russia and the huge increase in industry will become cheaper and more profitable.

    Russians will not create prosperity in Crimea if they can't even create it in their own country.

    The Crimeans are Russians and now have the opportunity to make their own prosperity.

    Only two possibilities come to my mind: either Putin is a madman who dreams about being a Tsar or the entire invasion is aimed at internal consumption. This option seems to be plausible - Putin is trying to divert the attention of people away from internal problems of their country, by playing on nationalist sentiments in Russia. By doing it he creates a "Russia str00nk" illusion that his foolish people then swallow.

    Yes... excellent western education there... there are thousands of possibilities... Putin has clearly shown himself to be more stable and sensible than any other leader I know of... if he just wanted land then Georgia was there for the taking... during problems in the neighbouring 'stans he could easily have accepted requests for intervention and taken over those areas too.

    The facts are they have enough land already and are not seeking to acquire more. If some bordering country are mistreating Russians and those Russians want to join with the Russian federation then that is when he will act.

    The idea that Putin is trying to distract the Russian population from the fact that he is doing a good job is just dumb. he has an 80% favourability rating... Obama would be lucky to have 20%.
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #2 - Page 34 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  flamming_python Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:24 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    medo wrote:http://news.yahoo.com/ap-interview-yanukovych-hopes-crimeas-return-125042682.html

    ROSTOV-ON-DON, Russia (AP) — Ukraine's ousted president, Viktor Yanukovych, said Wednesday that he was "wrong" to invite Russian troops into Crimea, and vowed to try to persuade Russia to return the Black Sea peninsula.

    Ukrainian president invite Russian troops into Crimea, so it was not an occupation.

    Yanukovych is such a useless dead weight and incompetent case of a politician, now he's backtracking on what he asked for? Does he not care about 97% of the Crimean people wanted to join Russia? Does he not care that 88% of Ukrainian soldiers stationed in Crimea defected to the Russian military, and was allowed to keep their military rank and status?

    He's a useless waste of a good suit. And a corrupt SoB to the extreme. Seems siphoning money from the budget was all he was competent at.

    Dear god, how could someone let the situation get as fucked up as he did? If ever there was a case made for not listening to the West and the rules it attempts to put on others (while doing whatever it wants itself) - then Yanukovich is the perfect example. He fell for that BS, took advice from the same people that were openly trying to overthrow him - and it cost him his throne alright, the fool.

    He made at every key point - an indecision or a wrong decision.. second-guessed, backtracked, contradicted himself.. bent over and caved in to those he should have stood firm against, yet was stubborn as a bull at those times when he should have given leeway and searched for compromise.
    That the country went from a poor-performer, badly governed but improvable country 6 months ago to the 2nd coming of Somalia that it is today - is directly his fault.
    It started all the way from his meandering on the Association Agreement issue and his own lack of a firm decision on what course to put the country on. He alientated not only the EU and Russia but also his own people, as he was due to find out quickly enough.
    And if he's to be believed now, then it didn't even end when he was ousted from power; he continued to do damage to his country even from Rostov cheers asking the Russian president to send in troops and now AGAIN going back on his own decisions; scarcely a few weeks after they were made. And just like the other times, ultimately he can only blame himself.

    At the last conference he even promised to get back to Kiev and restore order. That worked out great, been a few weeks since and no action, no moves. Some people in the East still considered him their legitimate president. They were counting on him, for those first couple of press conferences - to announce a counter-revolution, rally support, give directions.. anything. The entire country was watching it live; on TV, on Youtube.. I remember the youtube feed having 350,000 simultaneous viewers - even the putshists in Kiev were watching his news conference live.
    He failed them, just like he failed to come to the conference on Feb 23rd in Kharkov where all the heads of the eastern regions were waiting for him. Instead he sent a video claiming he was being followed, and then after the conference everyone else fled too.
    Like medo said - most of all, Yanukovich betrayed his own supporters

    Laughable that he's going to come to Putin now and beg for the Crimea back. He should be delivered into the arms of the Ukrainians just for this insult.
    If it wasn't for him none of this would have happened, his country would still be viable and whole.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:52 am; edited 2 times in total
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #2 - Page 34 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  flamming_python Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:48 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    Regular wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:"We must shoot'em in the head" - a Ukrainian Nazi sponsor to the counter-coup protesters in the East:


    It's even more pathetic when You realise that this guy is Russian.

    When Russia invaded the Crimea he made a video lambasting Putin, but also calling on everyone not to fire on Russian soldiers, etc... because they are the same people as them.

    Russia invaded Crimea? This is news to me, because last time I checked Russia had a legal military base in Crimea since 1997, and a military prescence in Crimea since the 1700's! There's this saying here in America "Remember the Alamo", I think in this scenario we should have a saying "Remember the Crimean War" pointing out the obvious fact that the Russians had a military presence in Crimea since forever, and that the British, the French, and the Turkish military powers have been trying to take that piece of land for themselves, I think those facts are quite relevant even today.

    Well I guess the more correct thing to say is seized it.

    But yeah, we took it alright. Like taking candy from a baby. First it was their's, now it's ours  pirat 
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:56 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    Regular wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:"We must shoot'em in the head" - a Ukrainian Nazi sponsor to the counter-coup protesters in the East:


    It's even more pathetic when You realise that this guy is Russian.

    When Russia invaded the Crimea he made a video lambasting Putin, but also calling on everyone not to fire on Russian soldiers, etc... because they are the same people as them.

    Russia invaded Crimea? This is news to me, because last time I checked Russia had a legal military base in Crimea since 1997, and a military prescence in Crimea since the 1700's! There's this saying here in America "Remember the Alamo", I think in this scenario we should have a saying "Remember the Crimean War" pointing out the obvious fact that the Russians had a military presence in Crimea since forever, and that the British, the French, and the Turkish military powers have been trying to take that piece of land for themselves, I think those facts are quite relevant even today.

    Well I guess the more correct thing to say is seized it.

    But yeah, we took it alright. Like taking candy from a baby. First it was their's, now it's ours  pirat 

    Was it ever their's? Khrushchev gave Ukraine Crimea arbitrarily with none of the Crimean's consent, so no it was never theirs to begin with. By the way if Russia wanted absorb every piece of land that they could, then they could of just toppled Sakavili's regime and seized the Georgian territory during the 8-8-8 war, or they could have easily integrated Transnistria in to Russia, Transnistria held a referendum years ago and over 90% of population supported joining the Russian federation.
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    Post  arpakola Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:26 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    medo wrote:http://news.yahoo.com/ap-interview-yanukovych-hopes-crimeas-return-125042682.html

    ROSTOV-ON-DON, Russia (AP) — Ukraine's ousted president, Viktor Yanukovych, said Wednesday that he was "wrong" to invite Russian troops into Crimea, and vowed to try to persuade Russia to return the Black Sea peninsula.

    Ukrainian president invite Russian troops into Crimea, so it was not an occupation.

    Yanukovych is such a useless dead weight and incompetent case of a politician, now he's backtracking on what he asked for? Does he not care about 97% of the Crimean people wanted to join Russia? Does he not care that 88% of Ukrainian soldiers stationed in Crimea defected to the Russian military, and was allowed to keep their military rank and status?
    ......

    He failed them, just like he failed to come to the conference on Feb 23rd in Kharkov where all the heads of the eastern regions were waiting for him. Instead he sent a video claiming he was being followed, and then after the conference everyone else fled too.
    Like medo said - most of all, Yanukovich betrayed his own supporters

    Laughable that he's going to come to Putin now and beg for the Crimea back. He should be delivered into the arms of the Ukrainians just for this insult.
    If it wasn't for him none of this would have happened, his country would still be viable and whole.

    true..
    he is waste of space..
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:50 am

    ON TARGET: Putin’s moves in Crimea reveal West’s hypocrisy

    As the situation develops in Ukraine, it is incredible to watch the hypocrisy of Western leaders as they attempt to demonize Russian President Vladimir Putin for his blatant aggression in Crimea.

    Hillary Clinton, the former U.S. secretary of state, expressed the opinion that Putin must live in a “different world” if he thinks it is possible to simply redraw the map of Europe. This would be the same Hillary who stood by hubby Bill when the United States led a NATO bombing campaign against Yugoslavia in 1999.

    The premise of that campaign was to support a militant Albanian separatist movement in the autonomous region of Kosovo. For 78 days, NATO warplanes pounded targets throughout Yugoslavia, destroying much of the power grid and killing over 1,200 innocent civilians in the process.

    Following a negotiated ceasefire, NATO ground troops poured into Kosovo, and the U.S. promptly constructed a massive military base known as Camp Bondsteel on the disputed territory. In February 2008, without the benefit of any referendum, the Kosovo Albanians unilaterally declared their independence from Serbia.

    This was of course rejected by those Serbs still living in protected enclaves within Kosovo, and by the Serbian government. The U.S. was the first country to recognize an independent Kosovo and, to date, the strong-arm tactics of the U.S. State Department have convinced 108 countries, including Canada, to follow suit. Apparently it is possible to redraw the map of Europe.

    Closer to home, we have Prime Minister Stephen Harper and Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird leading the anti-Putin charge with the inevitable comparison of the Russian leader to Adolf Hitler.

    It was this same Canadian dynamic duo that ensured Canada had a leading role in the 2011 NATO air campaign against Libya. It must be remembered that while the United Nations passed a resolution for NATO to enforce a no-fly zone over Libya, no one ever authorized a bombing campaign with the ultimate goal of regime change there.

    Hundreds of Libyan civilians were killed during that NATO air campaign, which was commanded by Canadian Lt.-Gen. Charles Bouchard and included Royal Canadian Air Force combat planes.

    With NATO’s direct support, Libyan president Moammar Gadhafi was eventually captured by the rebels and beaten to death in cold blood. With not a single NATO soldier killed or wounded in the conflict, Canada prided itself on the victory and staged an elaborate celebration on Parliament Hill. However, without any NATO presence on the ground, the victory over Gadhafi loyalists soon soured as Libya descended into armed anarchy.

    Given all the positive media coverage for NATO’s success in Libya, there has understandably been almost no mention of the fact that a new rebellion is underway in that country.

    Since last October, a new band of Libyan rebels has seized and held the crucial oil exporting port facilities in eastern Libya. Without any oil flowing, the central treasury in Tripoli (now held by the former rebels) is broke. Even the Libyan ambassador to Canada in Ottawa, Fathi Baja, has agreed with the assessment that his country is a failed state.

    Let’s review a few of the major military interventions that have taken place over the past 15 years:

    •In 1999, NATO bombed Yugoslavia without UN sanction for 78 days, militarily occupied the territory of Kosovo, later recognized it as independent and redrew the map of Europe.

    •In 2001, the U.S. invaded Taliban-controlled Afghanistan without UN sanction to apprehend Osama bin Laden. For more than 12 years, NATO troops attempted and failed to bring about democracy in that country through military means.

    •In 2003, the U.S. falsified the pretext that Saddam Hussein possessed weapons of mass destruction to invade the sovereign state of Iraq. The U.S. pulled out after a decade-long occupation, but Iraq remains gripped by widespread sectarian violence led by al-Qaida extremists.

    •Then there was the 2011 NATO fiasco in Libya that directly resulted in the spread of heavily armed al-Qaida militants into Mali in 2012.

    On the flip side, we have Russia’s (thus far) bloodless annexation of Crimea, complete with a favourable referendum result to illustrate local support.

    Given those comparative results, it seems that Putin truly is living in a different world.

    http://thechronicleherald.ca/opinion/1195386-on-target-putin-s-moves-in-crimea-reveal-west-s-hypocrisy?utm_source=website&utm_medium=mobi&utm_campaign=full-site

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    Post  mutantsushi Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:53 am

    Has anything been said about oversight committees or auditors to prevent corruption in spending the big bucks Russia has promised to Crimea to facilitate it's return to Russian sovereignty? Lots was spent in Ossetia and Abkhazia too, as well as Checnya, yet didn't make nearly the effect it could have due to corruption.
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    Post  Vann7 Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:54 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    arpakola wrote:The Situation in the Ukraine. #2 - Page 34 1239952_606985682728126_1324485903_n

    Blackwater's instructor trains Ukrainian neo-nazis

    Look at the weapons on the table.

    TAR-21 israeli weapons another proof they got their fingers in coups in countries like it was proven in lybia,syria and egypt.

    Someone shoot the Israeli trainer in the head..
    This is the reason ,i think Russia will not experience peace until they kick Israel from the middle east.
    Seems pretty much U.S and Neo Nazis alliesNATO will try to replicate Syria in Ukraine ,but with nazis instead of Alqaeda.
    So mark my words the conflict in Ukraine is not going to end anytime soon.. Russia must do something an encourage a counter coup ,
    because as long Nazis in power the elections will be rigged.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:35 am

    If Ukraine survives till election time then everything will be fine... they wont like losing the Crimea to Russia but what can they do about it?

    Russia was in exactly the same position at the end of the cold war till a couple of weeks ago.

    Eventually this will blow over as long as there is no escalatation and there is no need for that.

    Of course the funny thing is that NATO has decided to end all practical civilian and military cooperation with Russia... but here is the kicker...

    Speaking to journalists after the meeting, NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen expressed hope that the suspension would not affect Russia's participation in joint international projects in Afghanistan, such as anti-drug efforts.

    He also expressed hope that Russia's maintenance of Afghan air force helicopters and providing a transit route for deliveries of cargo to and from Afghanistan will not be affected.

    Hahahahahahahaha... personally I would continue to assist Afghanistan with their helicopters... as long as Afghanistan supports Russian activities in Crimea of course... a stable Afghanistan is in Russias interests... but allowing NATO to use Russian rail links and air space for their violation of Afghan sovereignty... well Russia can't assist NATO hippocrasy...

    Read full article here: http://en.ria.ru/world/20140402/188973288/NATO-Suspends-All-Practical-Coooperation-with-Russia---Statement.html
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:59 am

    GarryB wrote:If Ukraine survives till election time then everything will be fine... they wont like losing the Crimea to Russia but what can they do about it?

    Russia was in exactly the same position at the end of the cold war till a couple of weeks ago.

    Eventually this will blow over as long as there is no escalatation and there is no need for that.

    Of course the funny thing is that NATO has decided to end all practical civilian and military cooperation with Russia... but here is the kicker...

    Speaking to journalists after the meeting, NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen expressed hope that the suspension would not affect Russia's participation in joint international projects in Afghanistan, such as anti-drug efforts.

    He also expressed hope that Russia's maintenance of Afghan air force helicopters and providing a transit route for deliveries of cargo to and from Afghanistan will not be affected.

    Hahahahahahahaha... personally I would continue to assist Afghanistan with their helicopters... as long as Afghanistan supports Russian activities in Crimea of course... a stable Afghanistan is in Russias interests... but allowing NATO to use Russian rail links and air space for their violation of Afghan sovereignty... well Russia can't assist NATO hippocrasy...

    Read full article here:  http://en.ria.ru/world/20140402/188973288/NATO-Suspends-All-Practical-Coooperation-with-Russia---Statement.html

    +1 for this post! Laughing 
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:12 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    arpakola wrote:The Situation in the Ukraine. #2 - Page 34 1239952_606985682728126_1324485903_n

    Blackwater's instructor trains Ukrainian neo-nazis

    Look at the weapons on the table.

    TAR-21 israeli weapons another proof they got their fingers in coups in countries like it was proven in lybia,syria and egypt.

    Don't forget South Sudan, the rebellion in Sudan was started by a guy (John Garang) who was documented to have went to Israel to be trained in military tactics, but look at South Sudan now...their killing amongst each other, and South Sudan is undergoing the largest negative economic growth rate in the world today by a whopping negative 47%...for freedom and democracy of course:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(real)_growth_rate
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:37 am

    You guys make way too liberal use of the word neo-nazi.

    It is as silly as Western media calling every anti-Maidan person A Russian puppet.
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:12 am

    TR1 wrote:You guys make way too liberal use of the word neo-nazi.

    I can't speak for everyone but If I had to make a guess only 10% are "neo-nazis" which is the most active group, and 90% are "useful idiots" who honestly believe the European Union is a island of economic stability (tell that to all the angry Greek pensioners), or a light house for democracy (the EU president has never been elected), or a safe-haven for national sovereignty (thousands of law changes are passed down from Brussels alone).
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    Post  medo Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:22 am

    arpakola wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    medo wrote:http://news.yahoo.com/ap-interview-yanukovych-hopes-crimeas-return-125042682.html

    ROSTOV-ON-DON, Russia (AP) — Ukraine's ousted president, Viktor Yanukovych, said Wednesday that he was "wrong" to invite Russian troops into Crimea, and vowed to try to persuade Russia to return the Black Sea peninsula.

    Ukrainian president invite Russian troops into Crimea, so it was not an occupation.

    Yanukovych is such a useless dead weight and incompetent case of a politician, now he's backtracking on what he asked for? Does he not care about 97% of the Crimean people wanted to join Russia? Does he not care that 88% of Ukrainian soldiers stationed in Crimea defected to the Russian military, and was allowed to keep their military rank and status?
    ......

    He failed them, just like he failed to come to the conference on Feb 23rd in Kharkov where all the heads of the eastern regions were waiting for him. Instead he sent a video claiming he was being followed, and then after the conference everyone else fled too.
    Like medo said - most of all, Yanukovich betrayed his own supporters

    Laughable that he's going to come to Putin now and beg for the Crimea back. He should be delivered into the arms of the Ukrainians just for this insult.
    If it wasn't for him none of this would have happened, his country would still be viable and whole.

    true..
    he is waste of space..

    I would like to enlight here one important thing. I will compare it with Bahrain. Whwn in Bahrain were protests, Bahrain monarch ask other Gulf monarchies for military intervention, which than sent their troop to crash protests and later return home. What was important, was the fact, that Bahrain monarch remain in Bahrain and Bahrain forces together with foreign forces crash protests and later Bahrain send them home. Yanukovich did the same, after the coup he asked Russia to send troops and Russia send them to Crimea (they were already there). To this point everything is OK and legal. The problem is, Yanukovich didn't return in Ukraine. When Russians secure Crimea, Yanukovich have had to return there and take command of Ukrainian troops as well as Russian troops, for which he asked to restore law and order. In that case Crimea will be still in Ukraine and Russian troops would not be seen as occupation. Unfortunately, he didn't return and is still hiding in Rostov. He didn't take the command of troops, for which he asked. He didn't take the command of his own troops, which were there and in eastern regions. True, Crimea also officially ask for Russian protection and as Yanukovich didn't return to take command, Russian troop were subordinated to Crimean government as well as some Ukrainian units (Berkut) and they decide to make referendum and leave Ukraine. As I said, referendum and Crimea is a price of Yanukovich incompetence. Now he could not order them to leave Crimea as he didn't take command of them. He betray Russian troops, because he didn't return. Now it is Crimean government, who could say to Russian troops to leave, but they will not, because they join Russia.

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