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    Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    kvs
    kvs

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    Post  kvs Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:28 pm

    flamming_python wrote:It would not be comparable to anything.

    It's a true behemoth.

    But I don't see this coming to fruition any time soon. Just a megalomania plan, until such time as the demand for hydrogen reaches sufficient levels

    Oh please. They can export the electricity to China and even Japan. Exporting oil and gas is not the only option.

    The scale of the power generation is not just some number pulled from the ass. It is based on the large number of generators that can be horizontally
    stacked in the narrows. The Bay of Fundy in Canada may have higher tides but does not have the right coastal geometry. The latter has a span
    of 46 km whereas the narrows forming a mouth to Penzhina Bay is 26 km.
    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:05 pm

    kvs wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:It would not be comparable to anything.

    It's a true behemoth.

    But I don't see this coming to fruition any time soon. Just a megalomania plan, until such time as the demand for hydrogen reaches sufficient levels

    Oh please.  They can export the electricity to China and even Japan.    Exporting oil and gas is not the only option.

    The scale of the power generation is not just some number pulled from the ass.   It is based on the large number of generators that can be horizontally
    stacked in the narrows.    The Bay of Fundy in Canada may have higher tides but does not have the right coastal geometry.    The latter has a span
    of 46 km whereas the narrows forming a mouth to Penzhina Bay is 26 km.  

    I don't think that region is even connected to the main Russian power grid

    And even if it was, the loses will be huge over such a long distance, and transferring 100GW worth of power (because for sure there's nothing there that would warrant even 1% of that capacity)

    Besides, who says that China and Japan would want to import such an amount of electricity rather than building up their own capacities?

    I think its only realistic use is in generating hydrogen. When the world market for that picks up, then we can see.
    x_54_u43
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    Post  x_54_u43 Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:23 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    kvs wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:It would not be comparable to anything.

    It's a true behemoth.

    But I don't see this coming to fruition any time soon. Just a megalomania plan, until such time as the demand for hydrogen reaches sufficient levels

    Oh please.  They can export the electricity to China and even Japan.    Exporting oil and gas is not the only option.

    The scale of the power generation is not just some number pulled from the ass.   It is based on the large number of generators that can be horizontally
    stacked in the narrows.    The Bay of Fundy in Canada may have higher tides but does not have the right coastal geometry.    The latter has a span
    of 46 km whereas the narrows forming a mouth to Penzhina Bay is 26 km.  

    I don't think that region is even connected to the main Russian power grid

    And even if it was, the loses will be huge over such a long distance, and transferring 100GW worth of power (because for sure there's nothing there that would warrant even 1% of that capacity)

    Besides, who says that China and Japan would want to import such an amount of electricity rather than building up their own capacities?

    I think its only realistic use is in generating hydrogen. When the world market for that picks up, then we can see.

    Doesn't Russia have the UES(Unified Energy System)? It could just use all that power for itself and get rid of all it's older and more polluting plants in one go as well as exporting electricity and hydrogen on the side.

    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:25 am

    x_54_u43 wrote:
    Doesn't Russia have the UES(Unified Energy System)? It could just use all that power for itself and get rid of all it's older and more polluting plants in one go as well as exporting electricity and hydrogen on the side.


    Mostly it does, but some far-off areas are isolated from it, and Kamchatka is one of those places

    But even in areas connected to the grid, things are not always so simple. Energy is very cheap and plentiful in Siberia due to the hydroelectric and gas-fired power plants coupled with the post-Soviet de-industrialization of some of these places. But transferring power from there to the Volga region does not come without its losses. Hence the price of electricity in the Volga, where it's a lot more in demand, is significantly higher.

    If the network was lossless then the price and availability of electricity across Russia would be the same, excepting the difference in purchasing power across regions. It's not. In Rostov-on-the-Don it costs nearly 5x as much as it does in Irkutsk, and 2x as much as in Novosibirsk. And these regions are quite similar in terms of the average income of the population.

    In theory you could mitigate things by running a behemoth high-voltage power cable from Kamchatka to Sakhalin and from there to Japan, China, Korea, wherever. That's an option for sure, and it would provide all the power the surrounding Russian regions would ever need as well.

    But the costs would be substantial. Such a line would be over x3 times the length of any existing one, would need to be composed of a lot more individual cables to handle higher voltages just for the sake of that amount of distance, and I don't even imagine what measures you'd have to implement to enable it to transfer 100GW worth of power (!!!!!!).

    The only project that could possibly compare would be the Australian-ASEAN power link project. Which will be well over twice the length, but only a 1/30th of the capacity of a Kamchatka-Sakhalin one.

    I would imagine the costs of such a cable setup could reach $8-10 billion dollars or so.

    So.. wouldn't it just be easier and cheaper to generate hydrogen on the spot and ship it out from there instead?
    For sure though, Kamchatka would have the cheapest energy prices of any place on the planet Razz
    Couple that with its northern frigid climate. Can anyone say data mining farms and data centres? Cool

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:52 am

    Would be excellent for any industries that require cheap electricity, and it being clean generation is a bonus too.

    Aluminium smelting, steel making etc etc.

    I would think the tidal generators could easily be put into a large flowing river and generate electricity there too except unlike a hydro electric dam there would not be any need for a huge lake and they could be positioned along the river to allow navigation to continue for local boaties... it is not like Russia does not have a few rivers they could do this on.
    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:42 am

    **sigh**

    Since you guys are so interested in this project, I guess I have no choice but to share the article..

    https://zen.yandex.ru/media/city_swamp/samaia-bolshaia-v-mire-prilivnaia-elektrostanciia-sdelaet-rossiiu-energeticheskoi-superderjavoi-chast-vtoraia-60c49631e188ec3c2a3348e7

    The world's largest tidal power plant will make Russia an energy superpower
    12 June

    Penzhinskaya TPP

    The answer to this question was given by Soviet engineers, back in 1972. There is a unique place in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk - Shelikhov Bay. The minimum distance between the banks in the Penzhinskaya Bay area is 130 kilometers. The largest tidal wave in the Pacific Ocean is observed here - 14 meters. By building hydraulic structures with electric generators, you can get a huge amount of electricity, without environmental consequences for nature.

    Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia - Page 37 16261511

    At that time, the Penzhinskaya TPP (tidal power plant) project was not in demand. There was enough electricity in the region, no one spoke about "green" electricity in general.

    Today, a super-power plant in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk is a "saving straw" for Russia. According to the calculations of the engineers of the Gidroproekt Institute, the capacity of the Penzhinskaya TPP may be more than 100 GW. (more than half of all electricity generated in the Russian Federation). For comparison, 22 GW - this is the capacity of the world's most powerful power plant "Three Gorges" on the Yangtze River in China.

    Tidal electricity is absolutely clean. The prime cost of one MW is several times cheaper than that produced at the CHPP. The dam in the Penzhinskaya Bay will not have any impact on nature. The generated energy can be used to produce "green" hydrogen - a fuel for the future.

    Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia - Page 37 16261510

    "Construction of the century" will cost "a pretty penny." The dam in the Penzhinskaya Bay, together with the power plant, is estimated at 4.5 trillion rubles. Russia spent a little less on the Olympic Games in Sochi.

    According to the Minister of Finance Anton Siluanov, the National Welfare Fund (National Welfare Fund) currently has more than 13 trillion.

    A hydrogen plant, a port for shipping products, and the corresponding infrastructure will also require considerable investments. But this is an economy, with a subsequent return on investment.

    If Russia is destined to be a "gas station country" (and there is no other way in the policy of the state), it is necessary to take a leading position and think about tomorrow. There is money in the NWF. Today they are invested in various foreign currencies and do not work for the benefit of the Russian Federation. Maybe it makes sense to spend them on the development of promising technologies in order to be "ahead of the rest of the planet"?

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    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:44 am

    And the video.. (Russian only)

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    Arrow

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    Post  Arrow Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:22 am

    If Russia is destined to be a "gas station country" wrote:


    This term is used by ignorant people. Russia is the 5th economy in the world with a modern economy that is one of the most self-sufficient. Just look at the import. Of course, it is also an energy superpower. Huge oil and gas deposits and infrastructure for their transmission. The best nuclear technologies, etc.

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    ALAMO

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    Post  ALAMO Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:13 am

    x_54_u43 wrote:
    Doesn't Russia have the UES(Unified Energy System)? It could just use all that power for itself and get rid of all it's older and more polluting plants in one go as well as exporting electricity and hydrogen on the side.


    UES is the name of the company only.
    They don't have a full cycle grid, which is impossible for a country is so huge.
    Several subsystems are isolated, for example, Yamal, Sakhalin, Kuriles, there is some serious reconstruction going on in association with BAM, so not sure how will it look finally in the Baikal area, but it used to be a separated grid, too.

    And I would add one comment here.
    All the opinions about Russia being unable of doing that, due to economical or technical grounds, are made with the same style and manner as the Crimean Bridge used to be commented. "A cartoon", "even Germans couldn't", all that bullshit. We have all heard that already.
    Such a giant project in any western country would cost 10x the real price, so that is why they yapping bout Russia being "unable".
    They are all missing - by purpose - that obvious fact.
    Considering the scale and progress of Russian infrastructure renewing, this would be just another huge project in the pipeline. Smaller to the ones already executed and in progress, in both financial and technical scale.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:38 pm

    That article you posted shows the solution FP... don't run the electricity back to the main grid as half of it would be wasted in transmission alone, though as an emergency backup once it is operational it is essentially a huge amount of free energy... look at the solar energy that hits the earth every day that is wasted because the surface of the planet is not covered in solar panels to collect it.

    They say use the electricity to generate hydrogen which can be stored or shipped around the world and sold.

    Separating hydrogen from oxygen in water uses electricity which in most places costs money and creates pollution.

    Using this electricity for this purpose is ideal, but of course you would also build a cluster of electricity intensive factories and companies to take advantage of the cheap electrical power.

    There are probably a lot of other industrial processes that use enormous amounts of electricity and it would be ideal to place them in the region of such a power generation station.

    Unlike a hydro electric dam you can scale it... you could start with a few generators and then add more over time.

    Improvements in efficiency in generator design means the later ones are likely to be more efficient than older ones so it probably would not be cost effective to start with a full capacity setup.

    I am sure the Jamestown thinktank will come up with articles showing some migratory fish population that will be devastated by this project but why start listening to them now?

    New technology in transferring electrical energy efficiently with less power lost would be very useful for Russia and a lot of other countries, and of course alternative methods of storing electricity would also be a valuable area of technology they could further investigate too.

    Once it is up and running everything could be electric including cars and trains and buses and aircraft....

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:12 am



    Russian 3D metal printers are becoming mainstream and world leading. Kalashnikov makes 5 coordinate NC machine tools
    that produce parts via laser melting of metal powders. That is like integrating a foundry into the finishing tool. All
    conventionally produced parts with molten metal poured into molds require additional processing with machine tools.

    Kalashnikov's machine tool can produce 300 kg parts and can hybridize their composition. So different metals can be
    used in different parts in almost any degree of complexity obtainable by laser powder melting. The properties of
    3D printer produced parts is on a higher plane than those that can be produced with old style techniques.

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