Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 28986
    Points : 29516
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 36 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  GarryB Sat Dec 13, 2014 6:14 pm

    And to be clear the engines currently installed in the PAK FA are several tons thrust more powerful than the engines in the Su-27 which is considered an excellent dog fighter even though it is a large aircraft.

    The PAK FA is smaller and lighter and has more powerful engines now and will get engines that are even more powerful in 3 years time... and you want to cancel the program?
    sepheronx
    sepheronx

    Posts : 7088
    Points : 7356
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 31
    Location : Canada

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 36 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  sepheronx Sat Dec 13, 2014 11:26 pm

    PAK FA is probably one of the most important projects of the Air Force. The design and development of it alone brought in significant amount of new technologies. It is very important. Hopefully we will see it soon in production.

    That goes for FGFA and any other export models as well.
    Sujoy
    Sujoy

    Posts : 1292
    Points : 1450
    Join date : 2012-04-03
    Location : India || भारत

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 36 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  Sujoy Sat Dec 13, 2014 11:59 pm

    GarryB wrote:And to be clear the engines currently installed in the PAK FA are several tons thrust more powerful than the engines in the Su-27 which is considered an excellent dog fighter even though it is a large aircraft.

    The PAK FA is smaller and lighter and has more powerful engines now and will get engines that are even more powerful in 3 years time... and you want to cancel the program?

    x2. Let's not forget that the Soloviev D-30 is an excellent engine, so why not fit it in the PAK-FA and start serial production right away? After all its a tried and tested engine unlike the doomed F135?

    That's because Izdeliye 30 will have to be both powerful and yet be small enough to be fitted in the PAK-FA. Here falls the shadow.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 28986
    Points : 29516
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 36 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  GarryB Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:01 am

    According to wiki the 117 engine currently fitted to the PAKFA is 150kgs lighter than the AL-31 yet produces about 2.2 tons more thrust.

    The new engine in development is even more powerful, more fuel efficient, more reliable... and cheaper, with fewer parts.

    Of course if power was the only consideration then the engine from the Yak-141 would be a contender too... the latest model has 22 ton thrust with lots of high speed bypass air...
    Stealthflanker
    Stealthflanker

    Posts : 931
    Points : 1011
    Join date : 2009-08-04
    Age : 33
    Location : Indonesia

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 36 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  Stealthflanker Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:06 am

    Sujoy wrote:

    x2. Let's not forget that the Soloviev D-30 is an excellent engine, so why not fit it in the PAK-FA and start serial production right away? After all its a tried and tested engine unlike the doomed F135?

    That's because Izdeliye 30 will have to be both powerful and yet be small enough to be fitted in the PAK-FA. Here falls the shadow.

    I wish fitting engine would be that easy. pirat That thing is huge with diameter of over 1.4 m, larger than AL-31F or 117S.. Would be quite deep change in the plane to fit it.
    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 7326
    Points : 7475
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 36 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:53 am

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    Sujoy wrote:

    x2. Let's not forget that the Soloviev D-30 is an excellent engine, so why not fit it in the PAK-FA and start serial production right away? After all its a tried and tested engine unlike the doomed F135?

    That's because Izdeliye 30 will have to be both powerful and yet be small enough to be fitted in the PAK-FA. Here falls the shadow.

    I wish fitting engine would be that easy. pirat That thing is huge with diameter of over 1.4 m, larger than AL-31F or 117S.. Would be quite deep change in the plane to fit it.

    A slight modification of the airframe wouldn't be that difficult, otherwise they wouldn't be trying to develop the Type 30 engine if it was. Let's keep in mind the YF-22 airframe isn't exactly the same airframe as the mass produced F-22A airframe is it now?


    Last edited by magnumcromagnon on Sun Dec 14, 2014 5:02 am; edited 1 time in total
    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 7326
    Points : 7475
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 36 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon Sun Dec 14, 2014 5:01 am

    GarryB wrote:According to wiki the 117 engine currently fitted to the PAKFA is 150kgs lighter than the AL-31 yet produces about 2.2 tons more thrust.

    The new engine in development is even more powerful, more fuel efficient, more reliable... and cheaper, with fewer parts.

    Of course if power was the only consideration then the engine from the Yak-141 would be a contender too... the latest model has 22 ton thrust with lots of high speed bypass air...

    There's also the AL-41F engine that was developed for the Mig 1.44  Smile , a modernized version of that engine would even be better (such as heat resistant aluminum construction). Keep in mind such superalloys would greatly enhance all jet engines already in mass production via modernization programs. For people who are not aware, the heat-resistant aluminum superalloy is so promising that it may actually replace titanium in airframes and in engines.
    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 7326
    Points : 7475
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 36 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon Sun Dec 14, 2014 6:43 am

    GarryB wrote:Don't want to offend you Vann, but some times you say some very stupid things my friend...

    Maybe is me.. but Russia development with pak-fa is being done at an incredibly slow speed. I mean 2017 to just start testing an engine? at that rate pak-fa might enter in service in a decade.

    They should cancel it and take the money for a real massive tactical next generation high altitude stealth bomber.

    If it had Al-31s right now and the new engines being tested for 2017 were not as good as the engines currently being used you might have a point... but even then they have a joint production and development program with India... don't you think India would be a bit miffed to find their plans for a next generation fifth gen fighter have been cancelled and Russia will stop spending on the PAK FA... note they wont get all the money and time they have invested already in that aircraft back, and transfer all their resources to the PAK DA programme... a programme they are already spending money on...

    If you just look at WWII even with long range fighter escort western bombers were shot down in large numbers... with modern technology anything you can do with a long range supersonic bomber you can make slightly smaller, slightly lighter, and much faster as a supersonic fighter... and that goes for hypersonic aircraft too.

    As a matter of fact the S-500 with a range of 600km could easily bring down a hypersonic bomber, so you are wanting the development of a systems whose counter is likely to enter service before it does.

    The PAK FA will be in service for some time and will have several new engine types developed for it and will have new materials and coatings and technologies added to it over its operational lifetime... there is no enormous hurry... Su-35s are entering service now and in a couple of years there will be MiG-35s and PAK FAs too.

    Vann doesn't seem to realize that the technologies being developed for the T-50 PAK-FA could be applied to a lot aircraft, hence the reason why the program is a high priority.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 28986
    Points : 29516
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 36 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  GarryB Sun Dec 14, 2014 8:06 am

    Vann doesn't seem to realize that the technologies being developed for the T-50 PAK-FA could be applied to a lot aircraft, hence the reason why the program is a high priority.

    That is another factor... as far as I am aware the current 117 engine and the 117S for the Su-35S are basically developments of the Al-31, so experience in upgrading existing engines with new engine technology is beneficial because it can be used as a gauge... for some other engines like the D-30 it might actually be worth considering doing if the engine is widely used and indeed the benefits are clear and can be calculated accurately.

    there is the obvious example of the engine used on the Il-76... new PS-90 engines were developed and available... more powerful and more fuel efficient, but expensive to buy. the old engines were something like 800K US, but the new engines worked out at 6 million each. Even if they had enormous fuel savings potential the difference in price of 5.2 million dollars is a lot of fuel per engine so multiply that by four and most existing users didn't immediately buy the new engines.

    Over time however the price of the new engines has gone down, the foreign components are now made in Russia which further reduced the price, but most importantly now that the Russian military have started buying Il-476s the price should come down even further and make it rather more attractive for existing customers to buy a few new planes and lots of extra engines to replace the engines on their existing aircraft.

    Having the 117 engine means export PAK FAs and export and domestic Su-35s can have more powerful more fuel efficient engines... adding heat resistant aluminium should reduce costs even further and likely make the engines lighter too... reduced dry weight on an aircraft means less thrust is needed to move it around and also more fuel and/or payload can be carried.

    the new engine will ensure any weight increases for the PAK FA will not reduce flight performance with its extra power and its reduced weight.

    the experience in upgrading the AL-31 engine will likely be very useful in developing the NK-32 into a new engine for PAK DA and other heavy aircraft.

    The engine in the MiG-31 appears to be going down a different path and will be more like the new engine for the PAK FA because it will be designed for supersonic speeds for long periods.

    The MiG-31s engine however will likely incorporate ramjet or scramjet technology... and here the aircraft would really benefit from high temperature resistant aluminium replacing steel. They might keep some titanium materials in hot areas, but the incorporation of aluminium instead of steel should greatly reduce weight and cost (ie as opposed to using Titanium which would be the alternative to steel). Having an engine that allows scramjet operation in the bypass air flow means the turbojet can just idle at very high speed with the bypass air acting like a ramjet generating the forward thrust, which is a rather efficient use of energy.
    Sujoy
    Sujoy

    Posts : 1292
    Points : 1450
    Join date : 2012-04-03
    Location : India || भारत

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 36 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  Sujoy Sun Dec 14, 2014 8:29 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:I wish fitting engine would be that easy. pirat That thing is huge with diameter of over 1.4 m, larger than AL-31F or 117S.. Would be quite deep change in the plane to fit it.


    UAC has clarified that Type 30 will be  3 -stage LPC; 5 -stage HPC. Therefore, D-30 has no chance.

    But you make a valid point. Fitting engines should become a lot more easier.


    Last edited by Sujoy on Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
    avatar
    type055

    Posts : 101
    Points : 106
    Join date : 2014-09-03

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 36 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  type055 Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:51 pm

    question? why does T50 never show its Built-in cylinders? does it have?? or never open ? who has pic?
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 28986
    Points : 29516
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 36 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  GarryB Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:09 pm

    Built in cylinders?

    Do you mean internal weapons?

    Harder to evaluate it as a threat when you don't know exactly what weapon load it can carry...
    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 7326
    Points : 7475
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 36 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:55 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Vann doesn't seem to realize that the technologies being developed for the T-50 PAK-FA could be applied to a lot aircraft, hence the reason why the program is a high priority.

    That is another factor... as far as I am aware the current 117 engine and the 117S for the Su-35S are basically developments of the Al-31, so experience in upgrading existing engines with new engine technology is beneficial because it can be used as a gauge... for some other engines like the D-30 it might actually be worth considering doing if the engine is widely used and indeed the benefits are clear and can be calculated accurately.

    there is the obvious example of the engine used on the Il-76... new PS-90 engines were developed and available... more powerful and more fuel efficient, but expensive to buy. the old engines were something like 800K US, but the new engines worked out at 6 million each. Even if they had enormous fuel savings potential the difference in price of 5.2 million dollars is a lot of fuel per engine so multiply that by four and most existing users didn't immediately buy the new engines.

    Over time however the price of the new engines has gone down, the foreign components are now made in Russia which further reduced the price, but most importantly now that the Russian military have started buying Il-476s the price should come down even further and make it rather more attractive for existing customers to buy a few new planes and lots of extra engines to replace the engines on their existing aircraft.

    Having the 117 engine means export PAK FAs and export and domestic Su-35s can have more powerful more fuel efficient engines... adding heat resistant aluminium should reduce costs even further and likely make the engines lighter too... reduced dry weight on an aircraft means less thrust is needed to move it around and also more fuel and/or payload can be carried.

    the new engine will ensure any weight increases for the PAK FA will not reduce flight performance with its extra power and its reduced weight.

    the experience in upgrading the AL-31 engine will likely be very useful in developing the NK-32 into a new engine for PAK DA and other heavy aircraft.

    The engine in the MiG-31 appears to be going down a different path and will be more like the new engine for the PAK FA because it will be designed for supersonic speeds for long periods.

    The MiG-31s engine however will likely incorporate ramjet or scramjet technology... and here the aircraft would really benefit from high temperature resistant aluminium replacing steel. They might keep some titanium materials in hot areas, but the incorporation of aluminium instead of steel should greatly reduce weight and cost (ie as opposed to using Titanium which would be the alternative to steel). Having an engine that allows scramjet operation in the bypass air flow means the turbojet can just idle at very high speed with the bypass air acting like a ramjet generating the forward thrust, which is a rather efficient use of energy.

    So Garry how do you rank the most strategically important technologies developed from the PAK-FA program? New generation of RAM coating that could be applied to older generation aircraft? New generation engines that supercruise without afterburner, with potential to be scaled up to larger aircraft (such as Tu-22M3, Blackjack, or their replacements)? Design experience with creating airframes specific to stealth-shaping, that make creating future 5th gen fighters much easier and quicker (I suspect the reinstated Su-47 program will greatly benefit)? A thorough response would be nice, thanks!
    sepheronx
    sepheronx

    Posts : 7088
    Points : 7356
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 31
    Location : Canada

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 36 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  sepheronx Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:37 am

    type055 wrote:question? why does T50 never show its Built-in cylinders? does it have?? or  never open ?  who has pic?

    There are 5 prototypes and things have been pretty quiet lately and not much is being mentioned, not at least till the next engines are ready. So hold your horses.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 28986
    Points : 29516
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 36 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  GarryB Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:24 pm


    So Garry how do you rank the most strategically important technologies developed from the PAK-FA program? New generation of RAM coating that could be applied to older generation aircraft? New generation engines that supercruise without afterburner, with potential to be scaled up to larger aircraft (such as Tu-22M3, Blackjack, or their replacements)? Design experience with creating airframes specific to stealth-shaping, that make creating future 5th gen fighters much easier and quicker (I suspect the reinstated Su-47 program will greatly benefit)? A thorough response would be nice, thanks!

    Well new generation RAM coatings mean a wide variety of platforms can immediately benefit, from aircraft, to land vehicles and ships and it creates a measurable difference that can be deployed rapidly to an existing fleet.

    Of course RAM can only do so much, experience in stealth shaping can be applied to aircraft... both manned and unmanned as well as weapons and of course ground and naval surface and subsurface vehicles and weapons...

    Shaping effects new items while new RAM can effect existing and new.

    New engine technology shouldn't be dismissed either because most new generation engines seem to have fewer stages and fewer parts, with disks with blades as one piece making them stronger and less effected by foreign object damage. Additionally this tends to make them lighter and simpler and also cheaper and importantly reduces the operational costs in fuel consumption.

    Not every new design will benefit from these new technologies, but adding in other technologies like high temperature aluminium and surface conformal sensor arrays like side mounted radar, and of course a new generation of internal weapons have implications for many future projects.

    Previously high speed aircraft and indeed weapons needed exotic or heavy materials... being able to make a missile out of aluminium instead of expensive titanium or heavy steel will greatly improve the performance of the weapons including in space technology too.

    It is all very exciting....
    Sujoy
    Sujoy

    Posts : 1292
    Points : 1450
    Join date : 2012-04-03
    Location : India || भारत

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 36 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  Sujoy Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:29 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:New generation of RAM coating that could be applied to older generation aircraft?

    Unlikely. The absorption efficiency of RAM vis-à-vis material thickness is directly proportional and NOT logarithmic. This is not to say that if RAM used in the PAK-FA if used on the Tu-160 or Su-35 will not bring down the RCS of these aircraft.

    However the level of absorption in the case of Tu-160 or Su-35 will be lower than that of PAK-FA primarily because the material used to design the PAK-FA is different from the material used to design the other aircraft.
    George1
    George1

    Posts : 16080
    Points : 16577
    Join date : 2011-12-23
    Location : Greece

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 36 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  George1 Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:39 pm

    Russia’s air force to receive 55 fifth generation stealth fighters by 2020

    Five T-50 fighters have already been built and made their maiden flights, three more are under construction.

    MOSCOW, December 15. /TASS/. Russia’s Air Forces will receive 55 T-50 PAK FA stealth fighters by 2020, Vladislav Goncharenko, a deputy head of the military aviation programmes department at Russia’s United Aircraft-building Corporation /UAC/, said on Monday.

    “By 2020, a total of 55 fighters of the fifth generation are expected to be supplied to the Russian Air Force,” he told the Ekho Moskvy radio station. In his words, the army would receive first such aircraft in 2016.

    “Now, we are building prototypes, conducting tests. Works proceed in line with the schedule,” he said.

    PAK FA, which stands for Perspektivnyi Aviacionnyi Kompleks Frontovoi Aviacii, or Advanced Frontline Aircraft System, is a product of the Sukhoi Bureau, where its name is T-50. Five T-50 fighters have already been built and made their maiden flights, three more are under construction.

    “It is the order from the Russian defence ministry. I think is will be executed in 2018,” Goncharenko told, adding that his corporation was conducting large-scale development works in this area.

    “We already have ne flying drones. They are not vehicles that could be used to survey a battlefield, they are big reconnaissance fighter systems on the drone platform,” he said.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 28986
    Points : 29516
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 36 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  GarryB Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:03 am

    Unlikely. The absorption efficiency of RAM vis-à-vis material thickness is directly proportional and NOT logarithmic.

    Older aircraft already have RAM applied to them, but it is less sophisticated older technology RAM.

    Why would anyone expect new generation RAM to offer logarithmic improvements in RCS?

    All one would expect would be better performance than previous technology RAM with better properties... easier to apply, more hard wearing, cheaper, etc etc.

    However the level of absorption in the case of Tu-160 or Su-35 will be lower than that of PAK-FA primarily because the material used to design the PAK-FA is different from the material used to design the other aircraft.

    the level of absorption should be the same... the base RCS however will be rather higher for the different platforms.

    Nobody is saying new generation RAM will make existing aircraft stealthy... otherwise there would be little point in working on "stealth" design.

    the aerodynamic shapes of both the Su-35 and Tu-160 are actually very beneficial to reducing the basic RCS, and a few modifications to the designs (already applied) can dramatically reduce RCS further, but at the end of the day to get it down to real stealth levels you need to design the aircraft from scratch as stealth aircraft.

    Laws of diminished returns...
    Sujoy
    Sujoy

    Posts : 1292
    Points : 1450
    Join date : 2012-04-03
    Location : India || भारत

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 36 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  Sujoy Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:57 pm

    GarryB wrote:All one would expect would be better performance than previous technology RAM with better properties... easier to apply, more hard wearing, cheaper, etc etc.

    Yes, but not necessarily for existing platforms because the optimum RAM weight and depth will have to be evaluated while considering the impact of the application of bulky coatings, which may demolish other flight and mission characteristics of the asset.


    GarryB wrote:the aerodynamic shapes of both the Su-35 and Tu-160 are actually very beneficial to reducing the basic RCS, and a few modifications to the designs (already applied) can dramatically reduce RCS further, but at the end of the day to get it down to real stealth levels you need to design the aircraft from scratch as stealth aircraft.

    RAM technology is based on the thought of establishing required impedance which poses good matching and absorbing qualities, so that the RAM can accept and then attenuate the incident wave. Dielectric characteristics of RAM can also be explained as organically occurring, electromagnetic waves of radar bouncing from conductive objects. However, the molecular configuration of the lossy materials causes RF energy to expend its energy by creating heat. Then the heat is transmitted to the aircraft and dissipated while the residual RF energy loses its effectiveness, primarily due to friction and inertia or molecular oscillations.

    Along with absorption, another way of RCS reduction, by using RAM, is destructive interference. Destructive interference principal is based on coatings, or the “Salisbury Screen” method, which are used to reduce RCS by cancellation of multiple reflections.

    For example in case of the F-22, RAM is used to reduce scattering from surface breaks.



    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 28986
    Points : 29516
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 36 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  GarryB Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:34 am

    Yes, but not necessarily for existing platforms because the optimum RAM weight and depth will have to be evaluated while considering the impact of the application of bulky coatings, which may demolish other flight and mission characteristics of the asset.

    And I thought they would just send a conscript out with a paint brush and a bucket of RAM and he would go out and paint it on all the old planes sitting on the flight line... NOT.

    RAM would be applied where it is most effective and most existing in service aircraft will have computer models that could be used to determine radar hotspots and therefore places that would benefit the most from a layer of RAM... as I said before a good rule of thumb would be the places that had previous types of RAM applied.

    We are talking about the benefits of new technology RAM developed for the PAK FA being applied to existing aircraft... we are not suggesting existing aircraft can be turned into stealth aircraft with the application of new RAM types.
    Sujoy
    Sujoy

    Posts : 1292
    Points : 1450
    Join date : 2012-04-03
    Location : India || भारत

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 36 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  Sujoy Thu Dec 18, 2014 6:29 pm

    GarryB wrote:as I said before a good rule of thumb would be the places that had previous types of RAM applied.

    Again, like I said just because a particular area in an aircraft had some type of RAM in the past it is not necessary that the new RAM(from PAK-FA) will be used to replace it, because the material used to design that aircraft could be radically different from the material used to design PAK-FA. This explains why RAM developed for F-35 can be used on the F-22 but not on the B-2.

    Moreover, the formulations for RAM is different depending on where it is applied on the airplane and the frequency band to be defeated. There is no one formula that does everything

    GarryB wrote:We are talking about the benefits of new technology RAM developed for the PAK FA being applied to existing aircraft... we are not suggesting existing aircraft can be turned into stealth aircraft with the application of new RAM types.

    I haven't said that either. Scaling up is extremely difficult in aviation.Lift is proportional to area, mass is proportional to volume. When scaling up, the later grows faster.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 28986
    Points : 29516
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 36 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  GarryB Sat Dec 20, 2014 2:02 pm

    Again, like I said just because a particular area in an aircraft had some type of RAM in the past it is not necessary that the new RAM(from PAK-FA) will be used to replace it, because the material used to design that aircraft could be radically different from the material used to design PAK-FA. This explains why RAM developed for F-35 can be used on the F-22 but not on the B-2.

    I have never heard the claim that RAM is designed for specific particular aircraft.

    AFAIK the RAM created for the F-35 is much lower maintainence than the RAM designed for the F-22 and is being used now on the F-22.

    RAM is designed to be effective against specific frequency ranges so the RAM developed for the B-2 might not be appropriate for fighter aircraft but the technology behind new RAM for the PAK FA will be of benefit for all existing Russian aircraft that would benefit from the application of RAM.

    Moreover, the formulations for RAM is different depending on where it is applied on the airplane and the frequency band to be defeated. There is no one formula that does everything

    I highly doubt that. Are you suggesting there is wing RAM for an F-22 and fuselage RAM for an F-35 and that there are multiple types of RAM for the F-35 depending on where it is applied... that would be a freakin nightmare...

    I haven't said that either. Scaling up is extremely difficult in aviation.Lift is proportional to area, mass is proportional to volume. When scaling up, the later grows faster.

    Quite right about scaling, but not sure how it applies to RAM... RAM wont stop working just because it has been applied to an aircraft piece that is bigger than the piece it is normally applied to.

    RAM on the wing root of a MiG-29 wont suddenly stop working just because someone accidentally applied it to the larger wing root of an Su-30.
    Sujoy
    Sujoy

    Posts : 1292
    Points : 1450
    Join date : 2012-04-03
    Location : India || भारत

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 36 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  Sujoy Sun Dec 21, 2014 4:26 pm

    GarryB wrote:I have never heard the claim that RAM is designed for specific particular aircraft.

    Rolling Eyes When they developed RAM for the B-2, obviously it was a aircraft specific RAM

    GarryB wrote:I highly doubt that. Are you suggesting there is wing RAM for an F-22 and fuselage RAM for an F-35 and that there are multiple types of RAM for the F-35 depending on where it is applied... that would be a freakin nightmare...

    Yes, because the nature of RAM is different. Jaumann layer is different from Iron ball paint absorber. Similarly, Foam Absorber is different from Split-ring resonator absorber.

    Radar absorbers are loosely classified as "resonant" or "broadband". Resonant RAM is effective only for a discreet frequency or a set of discreet frequencies. Broadband RAM is effective over an entire band of frequencies.

    Generally speaking the same RAM is used in the wing leading edges, fin leading edges, rudder trailing edge and wingtip DASS/ECM pods of an aircraft primarily because these parts are made from the same alloy(mostly Lithium-Aluminium).

    Other parts of the aircraft that are made with other alloys, require a different RAM treatment.
    nemrod
    nemrod

    Posts : 839
    Points : 1337
    Join date : 2012-09-12
    Age : 56

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 36 Empty Russian Stealth Fighter Called ‘Super Weapon’ gives Russia Edge Over US In Skies

    Post  nemrod Tue Dec 23, 2014 4:07 am

    Iam not a specialist, but Iam afraid that Russia will waste too much money for a platform that won't provide much better than SU-35, Mig-35, and the very efficient Mig-31. The best russian asset is still the SU-35, and the Mig-35, du the huge amount of money - around 50 billions $ asked by Research & Developpment- russian air force will reduce dramatically its fleet of Mig-35, and SU-35. For a a new fighter. Indeed, it would be doubtfull, that SU-Pak FA will be better than old russian fighter. It is like the F-22 vs F-15. If you follow Lockheed Martin figures the F-22 unbeatable, however.... Will it be the same tragedy for SU-PAK T-50 vs SU-35 ?

    Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/1638419/russian-stealth-fighter-jet-super-weapon/#YaFY7uczU1kFYzQ6.99


    New Russian Stealth Jet Fighter Called ‘Super Weapon’ Giving Russia Edge Over U.S. In Skies

    A new Russian jet fighter, using stealth technology designed to conceal the plane from radar, is being called a “super weapon” by military experts who say that the fifth-generation Russian fighter jet actually surpasses United States fighters and could give Russia an advantage in the skies.

    Known as the TA-50 PAK FA, the new Russian stealth fighter is developed by the Russian aeronautic giant Sukhoi and is set to go into action in 2016. Russia is developing the new super fighter together with India, which is kicking in 25 percent of the T-50 program’s $20 billion projected cost.

    Each T-50 PAK FA stealth jet fighter costs about $50 million to build. Russia is India’s second-biggest supplier of weapons, behind only the United States.

    Russian President Vladimir Putin has called the new fifth-generation stealth fighter “superior to our main competitor, the F-22, in terms of maneuverability, weaponry and range.”

    The Lockheed F-22 Raptor is one of the two most sophisticated stealth fighters in the U.S. arsenal, matched only by another fifth-generation Lockheed plane, the F-35 Lightning II. And according to U.S. military aviation experts, Putin’s claim was not just an empty boast.

    “The analysis that I have seen on the PAK-FA indicates a pretty sophisticated design that is at least equal to, and some have said even superior to, U.S. fifth-generation aircraft,” said former U.S. Air Force intelligence head Lt. Gen. Dave Deptula, in an interview with the National Interest magazine. “It certainly has greater agility with its combination of thrust vectoring, all moving tail surfaces, and excellent aerodynamic design, than does the F-35.”

    A top U.S. military aviation official, who spoke anonymously to the National Interest, seconded Deptula’s opinion.

    “Performance-wise it certainly looks to compete with the Raptor,” the official told the magazine.

    While the new Russian stealth fighter is said to be less “stealthy,” that is, able to evade radar detection, than its U.S. counterparts, it makes up for that slight disadvantage with its incredible maneuverability in the skies that experts say is at least on par with the Raptor and far exceeds the Lightning II.

    But the U.S. fighters still hold one advantage — data technology. The U.S. fighter jets still have better “sensor and data fusion,” in other words, technology for processing information about the jet fighter’s surroundings and feeding it to the pilot in a way that lets him make quick decisions.

    “In the future — while aerodynamic performance will continue to be important — [planes require] speed, range and payload to a greater degree than maneuverability,” Deptula said. “Even more important will be the ability to ubiquitously share knowledge to the point that we have faster decision advantage than any adversary.”

    The Russians, however, are already at work on their sixth-generation jet fighters, which could solve the data problems and are scheduled to be ready for action by 2025.


    Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/1638419/russian-stealth-fighter-jet-super-weapon/#YaFY7uczU1kFYzQ6.99

    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 7326
    Points : 7475
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 36 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:07 am

    nemrod wrote:Iam not a specialist, but Iam afraid that Russia will waste too much money for a platform that won't provide much better than SU-35, Mig-35, and the very efficient Mig-31. The best russian asset is still the SU-35, and the Mig-35, du the huge amount of money - around 50 billions $ asked by Research & Developpment- russian air force will reduce dramatically its fleet of Mig-35, and SU-35. For a a new fighter. Indeed, it would be doubtfull, that SU-Pak FA will be better than old russian fighter. It is like the F-22 vs F-15. If you follow Lockheed Martin figures the F-22 unbeatable, however.... Will it be the same tragedy for SU-PAK T-50 vs SU-35 ?

    Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/1638419/russian-stealth-fighter-jet-super-weapon/#YaFY7uczU1kFYzQ6.99


    New Russian Stealth Jet Fighter Called ‘Super Weapon’ Giving Russia Edge Over U.S. In Skies

    A new Russian jet fighter, using stealth technology designed to conceal the plane from radar, is being called a “super weapon” by military experts who say that the fifth-generation Russian fighter jet actually surpasses United States fighters and could give Russia an advantage in the skies.

    Known as the TA-50 PAK FA, the new Russian stealth fighter is developed by the Russian aeronautic giant Sukhoi and is set to go into action in 2016. Russia is developing the new super fighter together with India, which is kicking in 25 percent of the T-50 program’s $20 billion projected cost.

    Each T-50 PAK FA stealth jet fighter costs about $50 million to build. Russia is India’s second-biggest supplier of weapons, behind only the United States.

    Russian President Vladimir Putin has called the new fifth-generation stealth fighter “superior to our main competitor, the F-22, in terms of maneuverability, weaponry and range.”

    The Lockheed F-22 Raptor is one of the two most sophisticated stealth fighters in the U.S. arsenal, matched only by another fifth-generation Lockheed plane, the F-35 Lightning II. And according to U.S. military aviation experts, Putin’s claim was not just an empty boast.

    “The analysis that I have seen on the PAK-FA indicates a pretty sophisticated design that is at least equal to, and some have said even superior to, U.S. fifth-generation aircraft,” said former U.S. Air Force intelligence head Lt. Gen. Dave Deptula, in an interview with the National Interest magazine. “It certainly has greater agility with its combination of thrust vectoring, all moving tail surfaces, and excellent aerodynamic design, than does the F-35.”

    A top U.S. military aviation official, who spoke anonymously to the National Interest, seconded Deptula’s opinion.

    “Performance-wise it certainly looks to compete with the Raptor,” the official told the magazine.

    While the new Russian stealth fighter is said to be less “stealthy,” that is, able to evade radar detection, than its U.S. counterparts, it makes up for that slight disadvantage with its incredible maneuverability in the skies that experts say is at least on par with the Raptor and far exceeds the Lightning II.

    But the U.S. fighters still hold one advantage — data technology. The U.S. fighter jets still have better “sensor and data fusion,” in other words, technology for processing information about the jet fighter’s surroundings and feeding it to the pilot in a way that lets him make quick decisions.

    “In the future — while aerodynamic performance will continue to be important — [planes require] speed, range and payload to a greater degree than maneuverability,” Deptula said. “Even more important will be the ability to ubiquitously share knowledge to the point that we have faster decision advantage than any adversary.”

    The Russians, however, are already at work on their sixth-generation jet fighters, which could solve the data problems and are scheduled to be ready for action by 2025.


    Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/1638419/russian-stealth-fighter-jet-super-weapon/#YaFY7uczU1kFYzQ6.99


    A waste of time and money?...Hardly, the technology developed for the Type 30 engines alone would be worth the program cost, fitting Mig-31BM's with a fully developed Type 30 engines as wells as the nose mounted X-band AESA, and the leading edge L-band AESA could increase the useful lifespan of those birds by additional 20 years if their airframes are kept in good shape.

    Sponsored content

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 36 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Wed May 12, 2021 7:07 pm