PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

GarryB wrote:And to be clear the engines currently installed in the PAK FA are several tons thrust more powerful than the engines in the Su-27 which is considered an excellent dog fighter even though it is a large aircraft.

The PAK FA is smaller and lighter and has more powerful engines now and will get engines that are even more powerful in 3 years time... and you want to cancel the program?

Stealthflanker wrote:

Sujoy wrote:

x2. Let's not forget that the Soloviev D-30 is an excellent engine, so why not fit it in the PAK-FA and start serial production right away? After all its a tried and tested engine unlike the doomed F135?

That's because Izdeliye 30 will have to be both powerful and yet be small enough to be fitted in the PAK-FA. Here falls the shadow.

I wish fitting engine would be that easy. That thing is huge with diameter of over 1.4 m, larger than AL-31F or 117S.. Would be quite deep change in the plane to fit it.

GarryB wrote:According to wiki the 117 engine currently fitted to the PAKFA is 150kgs lighter than the AL-31 yet produces about 2.2 tons more thrust.

The new engine in development is even more powerful, more fuel efficient, more reliable... and cheaper, with fewer parts.

Of course if power was the only consideration then the engine from the Yak-141 would be a contender too... the latest model has 22 ton thrust with lots of high speed bypass air...

GarryB wrote:Don't want to offend you Vann, but some times you say some very stupid things my friend...

Maybe is me.. but Russia development with pak-fa is being done at an incredibly slow speed. I mean 2017 to just start testing an engine? at that rate pak-fa might enter in service in a decade.

They should cancel it and take the money for a real massive tactical next generation high altitude stealth bomber.

If it had Al-31s right now and the new engines being tested for 2017 were not as good as the engines currently being used you might have a point... but even then they have a joint production and development program with India... don't you think India would be a bit miffed to find their plans for a next generation fifth gen fighter have been cancelled and Russia will stop spending on the PAK FA... note they wont get all the money and time they have invested already in that aircraft back, and transfer all their resources to the PAK DA programme... a programme they are already spending money on...

If you just look at WWII even with long range fighter escort western bombers were shot down in large numbers... with modern technology anything you can do with a long range supersonic bomber you can make slightly smaller, slightly lighter, and much faster as a supersonic fighter... and that goes for hypersonic aircraft too.

As a matter of fact the S-500 with a range of 600km could easily bring down a hypersonic bomber, so you are wanting the development of a systems whose counter is likely to enter service before it does.

The PAK FA will be in service for some time and will have several new engine types developed for it and will have new materials and coatings and technologies added to it over its operational lifetime... there is no enormous hurry... Su-35s are entering service now and in a couple of years there will be MiG-35s and PAK FAs too.

Stealthflanker wrote:I wish fitting engine would be that easy. That thing is huge with diameter of over 1.4 m, larger than AL-31F or 117S.. Would be quite deep change in the plane to fit it.

GarryB wrote:

Vann doesn't seem to realize that the technologies being developed for the T-50 PAK-FA could be applied to a lot aircraft, hence the reason why the program is a high priority.

That is another factor... as far as I am aware the current 117 engine and the 117S for the Su-35S are basically developments of the Al-31, so experience in upgrading existing engines with new engine technology is beneficial because it can be used as a gauge... for some other engines like the D-30 it might actually be worth considering doing if the engine is widely used and indeed the benefits are clear and can be calculated accurately.

there is the obvious example of the engine used on the Il-76... new PS-90 engines were developed and available... more powerful and more fuel efficient, but expensive to buy. the old engines were something like 800K US, but the new engines worked out at 6 million each. Even if they had enormous fuel savings potential the difference in price of 5.2 million dollars is a lot of fuel per engine so multiply that by four and most existing users didn't immediately buy the new engines.

Over time however the price of the new engines has gone down, the foreign components are now made in Russia which further reduced the price, but most importantly now that the Russian military have started buying Il-476s the price should come down even further and make it rather more attractive for existing customers to buy a few new planes and lots of extra engines to replace the engines on their existing aircraft.

Having the 117 engine means export PAK FAs and export and domestic Su-35s can have more powerful more fuel efficient engines... adding heat resistant aluminium should reduce costs even further and likely make the engines lighter too... reduced dry weight on an aircraft means less thrust is needed to move it around and also more fuel and/or payload can be carried.

the new engine will ensure any weight increases for the PAK FA will not reduce flight performance with its extra power and its reduced weight.

the experience in upgrading the AL-31 engine will likely be very useful in developing the NK-32 into a new engine for PAK DA and other heavy aircraft.

The engine in the MiG-31 appears to be going down a different path and will be more like the new engine for the PAK FA because it will be designed for supersonic speeds for long periods.

The MiG-31s engine however will likely incorporate ramjet or scramjet technology... and here the aircraft would really benefit from high temperature resistant aluminium replacing steel. They might keep some titanium materials in hot areas, but the incorporation of aluminium instead of steel should greatly reduce weight and cost (ie as opposed to using Titanium which would be the alternative to steel). Having an engine that allows scramjet operation in the bypass air flow means the turbojet can just idle at very high speed with the bypass air acting like a ramjet generating the forward thrust, which is a rather efficient use of energy.

magnumcromagnon wrote:New generation of RAM coating that could be applied to older generation aircraft?

GarryB wrote:All one would expect would be better performance than previous technology RAM with better properties... easier to apply, more hard wearing, cheaper, etc etc.

GarryB wrote:the aerodynamic shapes of both the Su-35 and Tu-160 are actually very beneficial to reducing the basic RCS, and a few modifications to the designs (already applied) can dramatically reduce RCS further, but at the end of the day to get it down to real stealth levels you need to design the aircraft from scratch as stealth aircraft.

GarryB wrote:as I said before a good rule of thumb would be the places that had previous types of RAM applied.

GarryB wrote:We are talking about the benefits of new technology RAM developed for the PAK FA being applied to existing aircraft... we are not suggesting existing aircraft can be turned into stealth aircraft with the application of new RAM types.

GarryB wrote:I have never heard the claim that RAM is designed for specific particular aircraft.

GarryB wrote:I highly doubt that. Are you suggesting there is wing RAM for an F-22 and fuselage RAM for an F-35 and that there are multiple types of RAM for the F-35 depending on where it is applied... that would be a freakin nightmare...

New Russian Stealth Jet Fighter Called ‘Super Weapon’ Giving Russia Edge Over U.S. In Skies

A new Russian jet fighter, using stealth technology designed to conceal the plane from radar, is being called a “super weapon” by military experts who say that the fifth-generation Russian fighter jet actually surpasses United States fighters and could give Russia an advantage in the skies.

Known as the TA-50 PAK FA, the new Russian stealth fighter is developed by the Russian aeronautic giant Sukhoi and is set to go into action in 2016. Russia is developing the new super fighter together with India, which is kicking in 25 percent of the T-50 program’s $20 billion projected cost.

Each T-50 PAK FA stealth jet fighter costs about $50 million to build. Russia is India’s second-biggest supplier of weapons, behind only the United States.

Russian President Vladimir Putin has called the new fifth-generation stealth fighter “superior to our main competitor, the F-22, in terms of maneuverability, weaponry and range.”

The Lockheed F-22 Raptor is one of the two most sophisticated stealth fighters in the U.S. arsenal, matched only by another fifth-generation Lockheed plane, the F-35 Lightning II. And according to U.S. military aviation experts, Putin’s claim was not just an empty boast.

“The analysis that I have seen on the PAK-FA indicates a pretty sophisticated design that is at least equal to, and some have said even superior to, U.S. fifth-generation aircraft,” said former U.S. Air Force intelligence head Lt. Gen. Dave Deptula, in an interview with the National Interest magazine. “It certainly has greater agility with its combination of thrust vectoring, all moving tail surfaces, and excellent aerodynamic design, than does the F-35.”

A top U.S. military aviation official, who spoke anonymously to the National Interest, seconded Deptula’s opinion.

“Performance-wise it certainly looks to compete with the Raptor,” the official told the magazine.

While the new Russian stealth fighter is said to be less “stealthy,” that is, able to evade radar detection, than its U.S. counterparts, it makes up for that slight disadvantage with its incredible maneuverability in the skies that experts say is at least on par with the Raptor and far exceeds the Lightning II.

But the U.S. fighters still hold one advantage — data technology. The U.S. fighter jets still have better “sensor and data fusion,” in other words, technology for processing information about the jet fighter’s surroundings and feeding it to the pilot in a way that lets him make quick decisions.

“In the future — while aerodynamic performance will continue to be important — [planes require] speed, range and payload to a greater degree than maneuverability,” Deptula said. “Even more important will be the ability to ubiquitously share knowledge to the point that we have faster decision advantage than any adversary.”

The Russians, however, are already at work on their sixth-generation jet fighters, which could solve the data problems and are scheduled to be ready for action by 2025.


Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/1638419/russian-stealth-fighter-jet-super-weapon/#YaFY7uczU1kFYzQ6.99

nemrod wrote:Iam not a specialist, but Iam afraid that Russia will waste too much money for a platform that won't provide much better than SU-35, Mig-35, and the very efficient Mig-31. The best russian asset is still the SU-35, and the Mig-35, du the huge amount of money - around 50 billions $ asked by Research & Developpment- russian air force will reduce dramatically its fleet of Mig-35, and SU-35. For a a new fighter. Indeed, it would be doubtfull, that SU-Pak FA will be better than old russian fighter. It is like the F-22 vs F-15. If you follow Lockheed Martin figures the F-22 unbeatable, however.... Will it be the same tragedy for SU-PAK T-50 vs SU-35 ?

Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/1638419/russian-stealth-fighter-jet-super-weapon/#YaFY7uczU1kFYzQ6.99

New Russian Stealth Jet Fighter Called ‘Super Weapon’ Giving Russia Edge Over U.S. In Skies

A new Russian jet fighter, using stealth technology designed to conceal the plane from radar, is being called a “super weapon” by military experts who say that the fifth-generation Russian fighter jet actually surpasses United States fighters and could give Russia an advantage in the skies.

Known as the TA-50 PAK FA, the new Russian stealth fighter is developed by the Russian aeronautic giant Sukhoi and is set to go into action in 2016. Russia is developing the new super fighter together with India, which is kicking in 25 percent of the T-50 program’s $20 billion projected cost.

Each T-50 PAK FA stealth jet fighter costs about $50 million to build. Russia is India’s second-biggest supplier of weapons, behind only the United States.

Russian President Vladimir Putin has called the new fifth-generation stealth fighter “superior to our main competitor, the F-22, in terms of maneuverability, weaponry and range.”

The Lockheed F-22 Raptor is one of the two most sophisticated stealth fighters in the U.S. arsenal, matched only by another fifth-generation Lockheed plane, the F-35 Lightning II. And according to U.S. military aviation experts, Putin’s claim was not just an empty boast.

“The analysis that I have seen on the PAK-FA indicates a pretty sophisticated design that is at least equal to, and some have said even superior to, U.S. fifth-generation aircraft,” said former U.S. Air Force intelligence head Lt. Gen. Dave Deptula, in an interview with the National Interest magazine. “It certainly has greater agility with its combination of thrust vectoring, all moving tail surfaces, and excellent aerodynamic design, than does the F-35.”

A top U.S. military aviation official, who spoke anonymously to the National Interest, seconded Deptula’s opinion.

“Performance-wise it certainly looks to compete with the Raptor,” the official told the magazine.

While the new Russian stealth fighter is said to be less “stealthy,” that is, able to evade radar detection, than its U.S. counterparts, it makes up for that slight disadvantage with its incredible maneuverability in the skies that experts say is at least on par with the Raptor and far exceeds the Lightning II.

But the U.S. fighters still hold one advantage — data technology. The U.S. fighter jets still have better “sensor and data fusion,” in other words, technology for processing information about the jet fighter’s surroundings and feeding it to the pilot in a way that lets him make quick decisions.

“In the future — while aerodynamic performance will continue to be important — [planes require] speed, range and payload to a greater degree than maneuverability,” Deptula said. “Even more important will be the ability to ubiquitously share knowledge to the point that we have faster decision advantage than any adversary.”

The Russians, however, are already at work on their sixth-generation jet fighters, which could solve the data problems and are scheduled to be ready for action by 2025.


Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/1638419/russian-stealth-fighter-jet-super-weapon/#YaFY7uczU1kFYzQ6.99