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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Giulio
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    Post  Giulio Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:30 pm

    But what is he doing the pakfa with an antiradiation missile?? awacs-killer?
    Stealthflanker
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    Post  Stealthflanker Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:33 pm

    Giulio wrote:But what is he doing the pakfa with an antiradiation missile?? awacs-killer?

    Air defense suppression of course.

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    Post  GarryB Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:27 am

    But what is he doing the pakfa with an antiradiation missile?? awacs-killer?

    Attacking enemy air defence systems will be the first steps to making the skies safe for your aircraft.

    Not all of your aircraft will be stealthy so the more enemy radar and large SAMs you can destroy the easier it will be for the other aircraft in your air force to operate over enemy territory.
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    Post  Austin Fri Nov 21, 2014 4:11 pm

    New Engine Type 30: 3 -stage LPC; 5 -stage HPC (see pics) and single staged turbine.

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 35 Type3010

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 35 Type3011
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:16 am

    New navigation system for the PAK-FA, with a life cycle superior to foreign competitors, an essential component in net-centricity environment, useful for integration in to IAD and aerospace defense:

    KRET created a new navigation system for the T-50

    Development provides integration with the Russian military constellation

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 35 10355630_10152830993858604_8931570640334132140_43_588

    Concern " Radio-electronic technology " has created an upgraded Strapdown Inertial Navigation Systems BINS-SP2M for the fifth-generation fighter T-50 (PAK FA) , it autonomously handles navigation and flight information, determines the position and motion parameters in the absence of satellite navigation, and provides integration with the military constellation of satellites and Russian GLONASS.

    Guaranteed lifecycle BINS-SP2M least 10 thousand hours - almost twice larger than that of foreign counterparts. Moreover, the Russian system has better performance characteristics and is universal, can be installed not only in air but also to marine and terrestrial equipment.

    Navigation system SINS-SP2M for the T-50 was developed by enterprises KRET - Moscow Institute of Electromechanics and Automation (MIEA) and Ramenskoye plant (RPGs). The equipment is constructed on the basis of laser gyros and accelerometers quartz (instruments for measuring acceleration of moving objects).

    "Deep integration BINS-SP2M space systems PAK FA will make more efficient in the framework of network-centric warfare, requires a combination of air, land and naval forces into a single network, - said General Director Nikolai Kolesov KRET. - Concern Enterprises are working on a few more unique highly intelligent systems for future combat aircraft and helicopters. These developments will enhance the survivability and effectiveness of military equipment, as well as enhance the ability of Russian Air Force. "

    Previous version BINS-SP2 was installed and tested on board the world's most powerful Russian fighter 4 ++ generation Su-35S. In combat aircraft used fifth-generation technologies that provide superior fighter aircraft of the same class.

    KRET - Russia's largest holding company in the electronic industry. Formed in 2009. Is a member of the State Corporation Rostec. The main activities - development and production of complex systems and avionics (avionics) for civil and military aircraft, radar (radar) air-based recognition of the state (GO), a complex electronic warfare (EW), instrumentation for various purposes (IA ), electrical connectors, connectors and cable assemblies. In addition, the enterprise group producing modern household and medical equipment, equipment and control systems for the fuel and energy sector, transport and engineering. The concern is 97 research institutes, design bureaus and production plants.

    http://rostec.ru/news/4515103
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    Post  Firebird Fri Nov 28, 2014 12:50 pm

    Austin wrote:New Engine Type 30: 3 -stage LPC; 5 -stage HPC (see pics) and single staged turbine.

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 35 Type3010

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 35 Type3011

    I wonder how the next gen engines will translate in terms of performance for the Pak Fa?

    Whether it will be increased top speed and agility?
    Or extended range? Or just more reliability/less maintenance due to it working at a lower % of max power?

    Its interesting how the replacement for the Mig31 will see top speed go from Mach3.2 to around 4.3 or so as I recall.

    I don't think the Pak Fa increase over 4G jets will be anywhere near as dramatic, but it would be interesting to see what would be possible, or chosen.

    EDIT I've read Mach 2.3 top speed. I wonder if more is possible?
    Stealthflanker
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    Post  Stealthflanker Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:49 pm

    Firebird wrote:

    I wonder how the next gen engines will translate in terms of performance for the Pak Fa?

    Whether it will be increased top speed and agility?
    Or extended range? Or just more reliability/less maintenance due to it working at a lower % of max power?

    Its interesting how the replacement for the Mig31 will see top speed go from Mach3.2 to around 4.3 or so as I recall.

    I don't think the Pak Fa increase over 4G jets will be anywhere near as dramatic, but it would be interesting to see what would be possible, or chosen.

    EDIT I've read Mach 2.3 top speed. I wonder if more is possible?

    Well top speed doesn't really matter now, the more important thing is "supercruise" How long it can maintain supersonic speed without use of afterburning.

    Next gen engine for PAKFA however will likely impact reliability, giving the engine longer life and more dry thrust for higher supersonic cruising speed.
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Fri Nov 28, 2014 2:44 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    Firebird wrote:

    I wonder how the next gen engines will translate in terms of performance for the Pak Fa?

    Whether it will be increased top speed and agility?
    Or extended range? Or just more reliability/less maintenance due to it working at a lower % of max power?

    Its interesting how the replacement for the Mig31 will see top speed go from Mach3.2 to around 4.3 or so as I recall.

    I don't think the Pak Fa increase over 4G jets will be anywhere near as dramatic, but it would be interesting to see what would be possible, or chosen.

    EDIT I've read Mach 2.3 top speed. I wonder if more is possible?

    Well top speed doesn't really matter now, the more important thing is "supercruise" How long it can maintain supersonic speed without use of afterburning.

    Next gen engine for PAKFA however will likely impact reliability, giving the engine longer life and more dry thrust for higher supersonic cruising speed.

    BTW, speaking about supercruise...why do people claim that ability as a '5th gen' attribute? I thought the Mig-31 had superior supercruise capability than the F-22, despite starting production decades before the F-22 started production? The so called 'F-35' is set to lose the ability to supercrusie, so is it no longer a necessary '5th gen' attribute according to Lockheed Martin?
    Werewolf
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    Post  Werewolf Fri Nov 28, 2014 3:29 pm

    Supercruise never defined the 5th gen and on the other hand Lockheed Martin from their arrogance try to dictate around what Terminology and Classification should apply without even operting within those definitions themselfs. F-35 is not a 5th gen by no definition other than Lockheed Martin, that thing can hardly equal 4th gen Fighters not to mention todays 4th++ Gen fighters. The F-35 is the Patriot equivalent during Gulf War, when they claimed to have shot down Ballistic Missiles like Scuds with 98%, when in fact they haven't managed to shot down 10%, lots of advertisement how F-35 is the ultra big deal and is still can not even integrate the basics for what they propagate it.
    Stealthflanker
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    Post  Stealthflanker Fri Nov 28, 2014 4:18 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:

    BTW, speaking about supercruise...why do people claim that ability as a '5th gen' attribute? I thought the Mig-31 had superior supercruise capability than the F-22, despite starting production decades before the F-22 started production? The so called 'F-35' is set to lose the ability to supercrusie, so is it no longer a necessary '5th gen' attribute according to Lockheed Martin?

    Because the MiG had to use afterburners to go supersonic.

    While the F-22's supercruise can be achieved without using afterburner, that's the only differences.

    Important feature of F-22 engine and the Russian AL-41F and PAKFA's engine is higher Turbine inlet or Rotor inlet temperature compared to "non-supercruise fighter" This allow higher "dry thrust" Without using afterburner thus allow supersonic speed to be achieved. Not using afterburner meaning more fuel efficiency compared to those using afterburner, which would mean supersonic speed can be sustained at longer time.

    One can easily compare the differences of fuel efficiency (In terms of SFC-Specific Fuel Consumption) between engine that has high turbine inlet temperature (supercruising engine) Vs Engine that use afterburner.



    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:03 pm

    The MiG-31 and F-22 are two different routes to the same thing.

    All the advantages of supercruising are based on speed... in other words flying faster and higher means you are firing arrows from the top of a high hill and the enemy is shooting up at you... you get a significant gravity advantage as your missiles are going down hill and theirs have to climb the hill.

    The high flight speed adds energy to your missiles so they go further, while their missiles need to be moving faster when they get to you to catch your aircraft. This means your range is extended and his is shortened.

    The other advantage is that you can cover greater areas faster, whereas in a conventional aircraft they can accelerate to your speed but their range and time on station is radically reduced because although they can fly fast they can fly fast for long.

    the difference is that the MiG-31 does it will a huge supply of onboard fuel while the F-22 uses superior engine technology.

    In practical terms however the F-22 is in the same boat as other fighters because to get its super cruise advantage it has to fly higher and faster than the threat and when supercruising at mach 1.5 it has excellent range and performance characteristics, but against the MiG-31 flying at mach 2.4 it comes up short.

    Sure the MiG is using a lot more fuel... but it carries lots of fuel and is designed to fly that fast as part of its interception mission, whereas most other fighters have comparable top speeds but almost never achieve them operationally because accelerating to that speed takes quite a bit of time and burns enormous amounts of fuel.

    the MiG is in its element at high alt and high speed.
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:42 am

    GarryB wrote:The MiG-31 and F-22 are two different routes to the same thing.

    All the advantages of supercruising are based on speed... in other words flying faster and higher means you are firing arrows from the top of a high hill and the enemy is shooting up at you... you get a significant gravity advantage as your missiles are going down hill and theirs have to climb the hill.

    The high flight speed adds energy to your missiles so they go further, while their missiles need to be moving faster when they get to you to catch your aircraft. This means your range is extended and his is shortened.

    The other advantage is that you can cover greater areas faster, whereas in a conventional aircraft they can accelerate to your speed but their range and time on station is radically reduced because although they can fly fast they can fly fast for long.

    the difference is that the MiG-31 does it will a huge supply of onboard fuel while the F-22 uses superior engine technology.

    In practical terms however the F-22 is in the same boat as other fighters because to get its super cruise advantage it has to fly higher and faster than the threat and when supercruising at mach 1.5 it has excellent range and performance characteristics, but against the MiG-31 flying at mach 2.4 it comes up short.

    Sure the MiG is using a lot more fuel... but it carries lots of fuel and is designed to fly that fast as part of its interception mission, whereas most other fighters have comparable top speeds but almost never achieve them operationally because accelerating to that speed takes quite a bit of time and burns enormous amounts of fuel.

    the MiG is in its element at high alt and high speed.

    Thanks GarryB, Stealthflanker! BTW it should be noted that the Mig-31 has a heavier steel airframe, as opposed to the titanium airframe like the F-22A. Personally I want to see newly built Mig-31BM's with the PAK-FA's Type 30 engines when it's ready, also using the Mig-35/PAK-FA's nose mounted AESA radar and airframes made of lighter titanium. Better yet creating the airframe using newly developed heat-resistant aluminum alloy, which has the potential to replace titanium in aircraft all together:

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t1920p1005-vvs-news-photos#67861
    Morpheus Eberhardt
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt Sat Nov 29, 2014 9:32 am

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:BTW, speaking about supercruise...why do people claim that ability as a '5th gen' attribute? I thought the Mig-31 had superior supercruise capability than the F-22, despite starting production decades before the F-22 started production? The so called 'F-35' is set to lose the ability to supercrusie, so is it no longer a necessary '5th gen' attribute according to Lockheed Martin?

    Because the MiG had to use afterburners to go supersonic.

    While the F-22's supercruise can be achieved without using afterburner, that's the only differences.

    Important feature of F-22 engine and the Russian AL-41F and PAKFA's engine is higher Turbine inlet or Rotor inlet temperature compared to "non-supercruise fighter" This allow higher "dry thrust" Without using afterburner thus allow supersonic speed to be achieved. Not using afterburner meaning more fuel efficiency compared to those using afterburner, which would mean supersonic speed can be sustained at longer time.

    One can easily compare the differences of fuel efficiency (In terms of SFC-Specific Fuel Consumption) between engine that has high turbine inlet temperature (supercruising engine) Vs Engine that use afterburner.

    I wouldn't have enough time during my entire life to reply to all the incorrect assertions, assumptions, and misconceptions in this post of yours. It is even worse that a re-run of your posts on radar related topics.

    However, think about this. MiG-17 (sans suffixe) with nonafterburning VK-1 engine (with a centrifugal compressor) would go supersonic, and yes, of course, in level flight.
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    Post  Stealthflanker Sat Nov 29, 2014 9:35 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    I wouldn't have enough time during my entire life to reply to all the incorrect assertions, assumptions, and misconceptions in this post of yours. It is even worse that a re-run of your posts on radar related topics.

    However, think about this. MiG-17 (sans suffixe) with nonafterburning VK-1 engine (with a centrifugal compressor) would go supersonic, and yes, of course, in level flight.

    Good, this should be a good behavior... an Almighty who knows it all but refuse to enlight.. Now how the hell a good discussion can be formed with this kind of behavior ?

    If i were you i will show my source, make calculations and show it. Not this kind of bullshitery.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Nov 29, 2014 10:53 am

    It should be noted that the MiG-25 was lighter and had similar speed limits to the MiG-31 with rather less powerful engines.

    it actually does not matter much about the amount of raw thrust from an engine... it has more to do with the ability of the engine to operate at high speed and still generate thrust.

    the best solution for the MiG-31 would be to do what the americans did with the SR-71 and change the design of the engine so that when operating at speeds up to mach 2.4 it operates as a standard turbojet engine, but at higher speeds bypass air is increased so very little air is passing through the turbo jet with the bypass air acting like a ramjet or if possible a scramjet.

    No doubt newer lighter, more heat resistant materials could be used... including titanium, heat resistant aluminium and of course ceramics for the nose cone.

    I suspect combined turbojet scramjet is the intended propulsion of the double speed MiG-41 they were talking about.

    If they can make Aluminium heat resistant then imagine what they could do with Titanium that is made more heat resistant... Very Happy
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    Post  GarryB Sat Nov 29, 2014 10:59 am

    However, think about this. MiG-17 (sans suffixe) with nonafterburning VK-1 engine (with a centrifugal compressor) would go supersonic, and yes, of course, in level flight.

    Late model MiG-17s had AB and the MiG-17 is called a transsonic fighter because it had to go into a dive and run on full power to break the speed of sound.

    The MiG-19 was supersonic.
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    Post  Viktor Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:09 pm

    Nice thumbsup

    The first flight of the PAK FA with new engines scheduled for 2017
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    Post  Vann7 Fri Dec 12, 2014 11:18 am

    Maybe is me.. but Russia development with pak-fa is being done at an incredibly slow speed. I mean 2017 to just start testing an engine? at that rate pak-fa might enter in service in a decade. No
    They should cancel it and take the money for a real massive tactical next generation high altitude stealth bomber.
    If not use the money for a stealth Kirov Class cruiser with S-500s defenses. that will be more cooler.. Smile
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:57 pm

    Don't want to offend you Vann, but some times you say some very stupid things my friend...

    Maybe is me.. but Russia development with pak-fa is being done at an incredibly slow speed. I mean 2017 to just start testing an engine? at that rate pak-fa might enter in service in a decade.

    They should cancel it and take the money for a real massive tactical next generation high altitude stealth bomber.

    If it had Al-31s right now and the new engines being tested for 2017 were not as good as the engines currently being used you might have a point... but even then they have a joint production and development program with India... don't you think India would be a bit miffed to find their plans for a next generation fifth gen fighter have been cancelled and Russia will stop spending on the PAK FA... note they wont get all the money and time they have invested already in that aircraft back, and transfer all their resources to the PAK DA programme... a programme they are already spending money on...

    If you just look at WWII even with long range fighter escort western bombers were shot down in large numbers... with modern technology anything you can do with a long range supersonic bomber you can make slightly smaller, slightly lighter, and much faster as a supersonic fighter... and that goes for hypersonic aircraft too.

    As a matter of fact the S-500 with a range of 600km could easily bring down a hypersonic bomber, so you are wanting the development of a systems whose counter is likely to enter service before it does.

    The PAK FA will be in service for some time and will have several new engine types developed for it and will have new materials and coatings and technologies added to it over its operational lifetime... there is no enormous hurry... Su-35s are entering service now and in a couple of years there will be MiG-35s and PAK FAs too.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:30 am

    Vann7 wrote:Maybe is me.. but Russia development with pak-fa is being done at an incredibly slow speed. I mean 2017 to just start testing an engine? at that rate pak-fa might enter in service in a decade.  No
    They should cancel it and take the money for a real massive tactical next generation high altitude stealth bomber.
    If not use the money for a stealth Kirov Class cruiser with S-500s defenses. that will be more cooler.. Smile

    The Pak-Fa program is fake...just like the moon landing... No
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:54 am

    GarryB wrote:
    However, think about this. MiG-17 (sans suffixe) with nonafterburning VK-1 engine (with a centrifugal compressor) would go supersonic, and yes, of course, in level flight.

    Late model MiG-17s had AB and the MiG-17 is called a transsonic fighter because it had to go into a dive and run on full power to break the speed of sound.

    Did you read any of what I wrote?

    For starters, it was the MiG-17F, for example, that had an afterburner, not the MiG-17 (sans suffixe).

    Don't have time. Read my previous post.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Dec 13, 2014 11:35 am

    Ummm... I quoted what you said and you said

    "However, think about this. MiG-17 (sans suffixe) with nonafterburning VK-1 engine (with a centrifugal compressor) would go supersonic, and yes, of course, in level flight."

    Now you claim you meant the MiG-17F with afterburning engine when in the quote above you clearly state MiG-17 without suffix and with a non afterburning engine...

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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt Sat Dec 13, 2014 11:48 am

    GarryB wrote:Ummm... I quoted what you said and you said

    "However, think about this. MiG-17 (sans suffixe) with nonafterburning VK-1 engine (with a centrifugal compressor) would go supersonic, and yes, of course, in level flight."

    Now you claim you meant the MiG-17F with afterburning engine when in the quote above you clearly state MiG-17 without suffix and with a non afterburning engine...


    Where have I said I meant the MiG-17F ...?

    I meant what I said, and what I said was about MiG-17, not MiG-17F.

    Of course, MiG-17F can ..., but that's another matter.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Dec 13, 2014 11:58 am

    In the post directly above my last post no. 871, you said:

    Did you read any of what I wrote?

    For starters, it was the MiG-17F, for example, that had an afterburner, not the MiG-17 (sans suffixe).

    Don't have time. Read my previous post.
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    Post  Sujoy Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:09 pm

    Vann7 wrote:Maybe is me.. but Russia development with pak-fa is being done at an incredibly slow speed. I mean 2017 to just start testing an engine? at that rate pak-fa might enter in service in a decade.  No

    To put things in perspective the F135 that powers the F-35 was supposed to be delivered for operational purposes in 2007.That never happened as the F135 was bogged down by problems with turbine blades from 2007-09.Once the problems became severe in 2009 officials connected with the F-35 program were given a gag order not to comment on the topic of engine failure.

    A 2013 inspection showed that F135 had cracks in the LPT turbine blade. The half-inch wide crack was found in a turbine blade of the low pressure turbine section. This makes it unlikely that it is caused by so-called FOD (Foreign Object Damage), such as a bird strike, because such an object has to pass the Fan Section (3 stages) Compressor Section (6 stages), combustor and high pressure turbine section before reaching the low pressure turbine section.

    So, the first flight of the F-35 took place in Dec,2006 and till date P&W has not been able to design an engine that is at the very least "functional".  The first flight of the PAK FA took place 4 years after the F-35 test.

    To be sure, the PAK-FA can very easily fly with the 117 engine today. However, it was decided from the onset that eventually the Izdeliye 30 will power the PAK-FA. Izdeliye 30 will be bench tested from 2015 onwards. If these bench tests are successful flight testing of the engine will probably begin from 2017 as the report suggests.


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