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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    TR1
    TR1


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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 16 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  TR1 Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:34 am

    Viktor wrote:
    havok wrote:
    Viktor wrote:And you can not fire S-125 missile until you have a lock on the target so .......  Laughing Laughing 
    Dale Zelko recalled that he had to dodge at least 3 missiles before a proximity explosion did serious enough damage to his ship. Three that he knew of. So you are wrong. The decision to launch can be at the commander's convenience. The 'spray and pray' tactic is not new and that is what happened to Zelko.

    What kind of missiles? It is immposible to launch S-125 missile before you have a lock on a target and that F-117 was shoot down with S-125 missile.

    You can do it with some other SAMs but not with S-125 ....  Laughing

    They will never get over the fact that the ancient S-125 blasted the F-117 out of the sky. It is hilarious.
    havok
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    Post  havok Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:36 am

    TR1 wrote:This is a Russian military forum.

    If you want to talk shit about the Russian military, please go over to F-16.net.
    We talked shit about the Soviet/Russian military before the Internet.

    TR1 wrote:Don't be surprised if we don't respond positively to your US centric crap.
    Why should I expect you to respond positively to my criticisms? Your comment make no sense. I am here to speak for the US. Who do YOU speak for?

    TR1 wrote:Go ahead and pat yourself over the shoulder over pounding some 3rd world armies.
    Did not the Soviets did the same when they ran over a few Eastern European countries?

    TR1 wrote:Or keep spending yourself into the grave.
    Ain't gonna happen...
    TR1
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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 16 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  TR1 Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:39 am



    Like I said, F-16.net is that way. Go cry about the F-117s miserable failure in not being shot down by ancient missiles over there.
    Stop polluting the T-50 thread.

    America stronggg!!!! Ok, out of the way.
    havok
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    Post  havok Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:40 am

    TR1 wrote:They will never get over the fact that the ancient S-125 blasted the F-117 out of the sky. It is hilarious.
    Only one? There were some 60 B-2 sorties over there as well. What happened to Zoltan Dani's awesome mods that involved 'electromagnetic waves' ?

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 16 B-2_jdam_obvra_runway
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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 16 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  Zinuru Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:41 am

    havok wrote:
    Zinuru wrote:And Dale Brown was in the same formation as you?

    I am just using an opportunity to ask a real USAF ace about this. Dale Brown and Stephen Coonts brainwashed a lot of USAF fanboys.
    Brown and Coonts wrote from their own experience and everything they wrote can be independently verified. Sure, they took some creative licenses and their fellow pilots understood that. But if you want to talk about brainwashing, I guess the Soviet/Russian military is a model of transparency and honesty.

    Zinuru wrote:I do not want to generalize but if these ex-USAF guys are anything to judge by, the service seems to be filled by ultimate morons.
    Considering how the Russian military often had to literally abduct young men off the streets to fulfill its conscription quotas, we can only wonder what is the quality of the Russian Air Force. So do generalize about US, you need the distraction from the sorry status of the military you are cheering for.

    You answered my question - it is indeed filled with ultimate morons. Thank you for your time.
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:42 am

    Zinuru wrote:
    havok wrote:
    Zinuru wrote:And Dale Brown was in the same formation as you?

    I am just using an opportunity to ask a real USAF ace about this. Dale Brown and Stephen Coonts brainwashed a lot of USAF fanboys.
    Brown and Coonts wrote from their own experience and everything they wrote can be independently verified. Sure, they took some creative licenses and their fellow pilots understood that. But if you want to talk about brainwashing, I guess the Soviet/Russian military is a model of transparency and honesty.

    Zinuru wrote:I do not want to generalize but if these ex-USAF guys are anything to judge by, the service seems to be filled by ultimate morons.
    Considering how the Russian military often had to literally abduct young men off the streets to fulfill its conscription quotas, we can only wonder what is the quality of the Russian Air Force. So do generalize about US, you need the distraction from the sorry status of the military you are cheering for.

    You answered my question - it is indeed filled with ultimate morons. Thank you for your time.

    American psyche relies (well some of them) on a self-perpetuating myth of superiority to everyone else.
    Just laugh and move on.
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:30 am

    havok wrote:

    TR1 wrote:Go ahead and pat yourself over the shoulder over pounding some 3rd world armies.
    Did not the Soviets did the same when they ran over a few Eastern European countries?

    You mean Romania, Hungary, etc. who were apart of WW2's European fascist war machine lol? No comparison between the two.
    havok
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    Post  havok Thu Feb 27, 2014 6:37 am

    TR1 wrote:Like I said, F-16.net is that way. Go cry about the F-117s miserable failure in not being shot down by ancient missiles over there.
    Stop polluting the T-50 thread.

    America stronggg!!!! Ok, out of the way.
    I may not have a regular presence here, but I have been here long enough to know that you guys cannot discuss the PAK without dragging the American 'stealth' fighters. But it is not enough to make comparisons, such comparisons are inevitable, after all, we fielded the first 'stealth' aircraft. And please do not bring in the Nazi's H-229. That was debunked a looooong time ago. Anyway, you guys have to downplay as much as possible the technical aspects of the American 'stealth' fighters.

    As for f-16.net, the people there have real military aviation experience, from pilots to maintainers to everything in the middle. What does this forum have to contribute to the technical understanding of the PAK? Nothing. If anything, am willing to bet rubles to vatrushka that you guys learned more about military aviation from perusing f-16.net than from reading fantastic physics defying posts about the PAK here. You guys are damn near as bad as the Chinese are about the J-20.

    Have you heard of 'flight control laws'?

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 16 Gen_cat_mech_actuat

    Can any of you pseudo-code up a set of laws for the above ? A lot of people over at f-16.net can. So generalize about Americans all you want but the fact that your playground is pretty much an echo chamber for each other's ignorance while f-16.net thrives says much about you.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:39 am

    But if you want to talk about brainwashing, I guess the Soviet/Russian military is a model of transparency and honesty.

    Hahahaha... yeah... the west would never lie... that is why Bradley Manning is a US hero and the NSA simply does not exist because that is counter to "truth justice... the american way".

    Except it is "lies, revenge and our way or the highway..."

    So do generalize about US, you need the distraction from the sorry status of the military you are cheering for.

    Actually it is the Russian military that is having a growth spurt with proper funding and investment and lots of new kool stuff.

    America still talks the talk but the house of cards is built on weak foundations... perhaps instead of having interests rather than friends you should have had friends... because it sure as hell wont be in the UK or Australian or EU interest to go down with the US so they will likely drop you like a hot potato.

    Dale Zelko recalled that he had to dodge at least 3 missiles before a proximity explosion did serious enough damage to his ship. Three that he knew of. So you are wrong.

    The SA-3 was designed as a low to medium altitude system for shooting down heavy non manouverable targets like B-52s... as an ex US F-111 crewman I would have thought your knowledge would be rather be4tter... the fact that he had to dodge at least three means at least three locks... things are getting worse all the time. Perhaps if the Serbs had a modern SAM like Pantsir-S1 the US and NATO would no longer have an air force...  Twisted Evil 

    their scientists and engineers know that once America's private sectors are unleashed on the program, the US will produce a functional ABM defense system.

    That will be expensive... in a strange way I kinda hope they do, because the easy response will be rather more targets and also systems and equipment to interfere with the ABM sensors and components.

    Even if they make space above the US totally safe... that is when the Russians with their excellent nuclear skills can develop nuclear powered scramjet engines with hypersonic low flying cruise missiles to fly under US ABM defences...

    Can any of you pseudo-code up a set of laws for the above ?

    I get it.. you are butt hurt because most of the people here don't get an erection every morning when the old stars and stripes goes up the pole.

    the fact that a group of Serbian guys who clearly knew what they were doing managed to shoot down a state of the art uber US super invisible plane with a missile from the 1960s is clearly something that upsets you... welcome to the real world. The US was happy to supply Chinese rifles and captured Arab weapons to the Afghans during the 1980s... do you think the Russians wouldn't help their friends and allies against the US?

    It is not as if the Muj were even friends with the US but your CIA still supplied them with weapons.

    The Vietnamese had to fight to get out from under white man colonial control... first the French... then the Japs for a very short period and then the French again who used the japs after the war to control the natives because they didn't have the troops to spare in the immediate post WWII period. the Vietnamese kicked the french out and what happens... the US comes in and replaces them!

    Vietnam was not about communism... it was about colonialism and colonialism lost.

    But most americans don't know anything about Vietnam... most just think it was a war.
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    Post  Zinuru Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:10 am

    havok wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Like I said, F-16.net is that way. Go cry about the F-117s miserable failure in not being shot down by ancient missiles over there.
    Stop polluting the T-50 thread.

    America stronggg!!!! Ok, out of the way.
    I may not have a regular presence here, but I have been here long enough to know that you guys cannot discuss the PAK without dragging the American 'stealth' fighters. But it is not enough to make comparisons, such comparisons are inevitable, after all, we fielded the first 'stealth' aircraft. And please do not bring in the Nazi's H-229. That was debunked a looooong time ago. Anyway, you guys have to downplay as much as possible the technical aspects of the American 'stealth' fighters.

    As for f-16.net, the people there have real military aviation experience, from pilots to maintainers to everything in the middle. What does this forum have to contribute to the technical understanding of the PAK? Nothing. If anything, am willing to bet rubles to vatrushka that you guys learned more about military aviation from perusing f-16.net than from reading fantastic physics defying posts about the PAK here. You guys are damn near as bad as the Chinese are about the J-20.

    Have you heard of 'flight control laws'?

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 16 Gen_cat_mech_actuat

    Can any of you pseudo-code up a set of laws for the above ? A lot of people over at f-16.net can. So generalize about Americans all you want but the fact that your playground is pretty much an echo chamber for each other's ignorance while f-16.net thrives says much about you.

    I thought that after the Brown-Coonts debacle you wouldn't dare to show up again. But since you did, here is some real life info for you:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dale_Brown
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Coonts
    You would think they know what they are talking about but rarely will you find dumber fairy tale tellers. Technical errors and political bullshit are beyond pale for career AF officers even in fantasy. And all this crap is perfectly verifiable according to you.
    An American saying goes: Once a bullshitter - always a ... Finish yourself.
    Sure, the people on f16.net have the same "real military aviation experience" as you do  - wet fantasies.
    macedonian
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    Post  macedonian Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:25 am

    havok wrote:So this old man in this little corner of the Internet looking at a bunch of kids who probably can barely tell the differences between a screwdriver and a hammer, let alone touch a real jet fighter, but have no problems yakking about 'stealth' and air combat. All based upon their own ignorance, no experience, and PR blurbs about said fighters. They are cheering for an air force that is barely a shadow of its former self and whose combat experience dated back to the Korean War when its pilots flew for another air force. They are making excuses for an air force that tossed away a crucial understanding of radar detection that left it at least a decade, if not two, behind a competitor.

    You guys are entertaining...I will give you that...

    You don't get it, do you old timer?
    People are cheering for Russia because they're fed-up with the imperialistic elite that runs your country and because of tools like yourself who are willing to bomb women and children without questioning orders, and call that 'Patriotism'.
    It's precisely BECAUSE of your extensive real combat experience (in attacking smaller nations incapable of defending themselves) that people are finding hope in Russia.
    You seem to be very proud of your nation's achievements, perhaps one day your government can repay for your service by offering a little bit extra, like they did to this guy. Or this lady. Maybe while bent over you can tell them all about your glorious military days...I'm sure they'll find that entertaining.

    You know what's funny?!
    You accuse people here of being 'fan boys (deprived of experience)' of Russian military tech, yet you (an older gentleman by your own testimony), seem to be ignorant enough as to compare two different countries in military technology. That's right - the USSR and Russia are DIFFERENT countries altogether! No matter what FoxNews tells you.

    Keep living the dream oldtimer!
    Over and out.
    Werewolf
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    Post  Werewolf Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:39 am

    I find it very amuzing, you claim to be here on this forum quite a time and to know so much about it but still you totally ignore that NATO failed Serbian Air Strike campaign.

    Do you know why it took 78 days and so many civilians were killed rather than military personal and military complex,aircrafts and tanks?

    The Serbs used massive amounts of decoys, the first two weeks the US had almost no singificant accomplishments but off course they didn't know that from the beginning they only found out after the Serbians firepower wasn't comprimized after massive use of bombs.

    Serbs used microwaves to immidiate IR signature of anything as big as a jeep, tank decoys, jet decoys, radar decoys and SAM decoys sometimes (microwaves).



    After NATO realized they had no big effect on Serbian military and their firepower couldn't be comprimized, what did they do in the old american behavior?

    They focused civilians and civilian infrastructure, killed civilians in trains, bombed power plants, destroyed hospitals, started bombing of central infrastructure around belgrad.

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 16 Train1-4-12

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 16 Mig-29-1

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 16 Aa+serb+mig-29-5

    And how was the moral of NATO troops mainly US troops like it is in every war?

    One picture says more than thousand words.
    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 16 Bomba-kraljevo-do-you-still-wanna-be-a-Serb-now

    So spare your nonsense of the mighty USA and the mighty F-117 that would fierce china and russia, the F-117 was shot down 2 times and you immidiatley withdrew it from service, that speaks enough about the quality of it. Good against 3rd world countries, but almost useless against "2nd world countries" and for sure useless against any 1st world country with state of the art equipment.

    At least havok in one point you are right, the Horten 229 was not a stealth jet and you are right that this was debunked long ago, but it is not this forum or its members that bring up always this BS to discredit Petr Ufimtsev for his stealth technology invention, it is your f.16 forum filled with so much youngsters that weren't even born before year 2000. And so far to search for people with real military experience on f-16 net is a hard task.

    And for the point that this NATO bombing of Serbia was so succesful how you claim you have a high amount of lost aircrafts against this little nation and german generals begged the NATO not to use ground forces because it was pretty clear that in this environment with lot of urban warfare NATO would be smoked beyond damage what russians faced in grozny, by far worse.
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:03 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    After NATO realized they had no big effect on Serbian military and their firepower couldn't be comprimized, what did they do in the old american behavior?

    They focused civilians and civilian infrastructure, killed civilians in trains, bombed power plants, destroyed hospitals, started bombing of central infrastructure around belgrad.


    Don't forget they bombed the Chinese embassy:

    havok
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    Post  havok Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:31 am

    GarryB wrote:Hahahaha... yeah... the west would never lie... that is why Bradley Manning is a US hero and the NSA simply does not exist because that is counter to "truth justice... the american way".

    Except it is "lies, revenge and our way or the highway..."
    Har...Plenty of Russians found the American way far more palatable than the Russian way.

    GarryB wrote:Actually it is the Russian military that is having a growth spurt with proper funding and investment and lots of new kool stuff.
    Kool stuff that are still behind US. The PAK is still debatable whether it is 'stealth' or not.

    GarryB wrote:America still talks the talk but the house of cards is built on weak foundations... perhaps instead of having interests rather than friends you should have had friends... because it sure as hell wont be in the UK or Australian or EU interest to go down with the US so they will likely drop you like a hot potato.
    Spare US...Russia's political and economic corruptions to the same as the Cold War era are famous. Or should we say infamous? Who are Russia's friends? Iran? Syria?

    GarryB wrote:The SA-3 was designed as a low to medium altitude system for shooting down heavy non manouverable targets like B-52s... as an ex US F-111 crewman I would have thought your knowledge would be rather be4tter... the fact that he had to dodge at least three means at least three locks... things are getting worse all the time. Perhaps if the Serbs had a modern SAM like Pantsir-S1 the US and NATO would no longer have an air force...
    Zelko recalled his RWR did not record a lock. Back during the Vietnam War, North Vietnamese air defense often launched without acquiring locks, especially when tracking radars encountered jamming. Overall, it averaged out to 3 missiles to bring down an American aircraft. The tactic is called 'spray and pray'.

    GarryB wrote:That will be expensive... in a strange way I kinda hope they do, because the easy response will be rather more targets and also systems and equipment to interfere with the ABM sensors and components.
    As if YOU can give any credible technical explanation on what are those components, their integration, and how to counter them.

    GarryB wrote:Even if they make space above the US totally safe... that is when the Russians with their excellent nuclear skills can develop nuclear powered scramjet engines with hypersonic low flying cruise missiles to fly under US ABM defences...
    Yeah...We heard that before. These tales were told to Soviet troops as parts and parcels of the constant brainwashing propaganda the Soviet military require, usually the duty of the zapolit in every unit.

    GarryB wrote:I get it.. you are butt hurt because most of the people here don't get an erection every morning when the old stars and stripes goes up the pole.
    It would be nice if you do...

    GarryB wrote:the fact that a group of Serbian guys who clearly knew what they were doing managed to shoot down a state of the art uber US super invisible plane with a missile from the 1960s is clearly something that upsets you... welcome to the real world. The US was happy to supply Chinese rifles and captured Arab weapons to the Afghans during the 1980s... do you think the Russians wouldn't help their friends and allies against the US?
    I guess after all said and done and only one F-117 was lost that never made a ding in the air campaign, you really have no choice but to cling on to whatever little glory there is.

    GarryB wrote:The Vietnamese had to fight to get out from under white man colonial control... first the French... then the Japs for a very short period and then the French again who used the japs after the war to control the natives because they didn't have the troops to spare in the immediate post WWII period. the Vietnamese kicked the french out and what happens... the US comes in and replaces them!

    Vietnam was not about communism... it was about colonialism and colonialism lost.

    But most americans don't know anything about Vietnam... most just think it was a war.
    And you think your knowledge of the Vietnam War is any better?

    First...The US (Roosevelt) wanted Indochina to be under UN administration towards independence.

    https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/pentagon/pent1.html
    Roosevelt replied (on January 24, 1944), that:

    I saw Halifax last week and told him quite frankly that it was perfectly true that I had, for over a year, expressed the opinion that Indo-China should not go back to France but that it should be administered by an international trusteeship. France has had the country-thirty million inhabitants for nearly one hundred years, and the people are worse off than they were at the beginning.

    As a matter of interest, I am wholeheartedly supported in this view by Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek and by Marshal Stalin. I see no reason to play in with the British Foreign Office in this matter. The only reason they seem to oppose it is that they fear the effect it would have on their own possessions and those of the Dutch. They have never liked the idea of trusteeship because it is, in some instances, aimed at future independence. This is true in the case of Indo-China.

    Each case must, of course, stand on its own feet, but the case of IndoChina is perfectly clear. France has milked it for one hundred years. The people of Indo-China are entitled to something better than that.

    Second...Guess who invited France back to Viet Nam...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ho%E2%80%93Sainteny_agreement
    The Ho–Sainteny agreement was an agreement made March 6, 1946 between Ho Chi Minh, President of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam, and Jean Sainteny, Special Envoy of France. It recognized Vietnam as a "Free State" within the French Union, and permitted France to continue stationing troops in North Vietnam until 1951.

    The Ho-Sainteny Agreement effectively backstabbed the US regarding the UN Trusteeship plan. Truman had no reasons to deviated from Roosevelt's wishes. The US never had any colonial interests in Indochina, or even mainland Asia, to start. It was only once communism was introduced into the mix, despite whatever Ho said about his desire for democracy to the point of bringing up the US Declaration of Independence, that the US publicly stated support for France.

    Jean Sainteny was Ho's friend, to the point where Ho vacationed in France with Sainteny and where the two came to this pact. Ho could not cement his position in North Vietnam, let alone all of Viet Nam. Too many other nationalists. So Ho enlisted France's help, as in troops and arms. Together, the Viet Minh and France brutally suppressed all resistance in North Vietnam. Then Ho turned against France. The rest is history, the kind that many Americans know. But I guess not Russians and their friends since they swallowed wholesale whatever the KGB/FSB told them.
    havok
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    Post  havok Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:41 am

    Zinuru wrote:I thought that after the Brown-Coonts debacle you wouldn't dare to show up again. But since you did, here is some real life info for you:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dale_Brown
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Coonts
    You would think they know what they are talking about but rarely will you find dumber fairy tale tellers. Technical errors and political bullshit are beyond pale for career AF officers even in fantasy. And all this crap is perfectly verifiable according to you.
    An American saying goes: Once a bullshitter - always a ... Finish yourself.
    What 'debacle' are you talking about? Did you even read of Brown's and Coonts' military experience? They are fiction writers. Do you even know what the word 'fiction' mean? Technical errors? I doubt you even read any of their books. There are plenty of movies involving the F-16 where the pilots moved the control sticks. F-16 people know that is not true. The control stick does not move so visibly. In the movie 'Top Gun', there was a trophy. The real 'Top Gun' program have no such trophy. These are not 'technical errors' but liberties for the sake of story telling and those who know better have no problems tolerating these liberties. That is why the special ops community can enjoy the 'Rambo' series even though they know the actions are pure bunk.

    Zinuru wrote:Sure, the people on f16.net have the same "real military aviation experience" as you do  - wet fantasies.
    Try pulling the crap over there the way you do here and see what happens.
    collegeboy16
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    Post  collegeboy16 Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:49 am

    havok wrote:
    Zinuru wrote:Sure, the people on f16.net have the same "real military aviation experience" as you do  - wet fantasies.
    Try pulling the crap over there the way you do here and see what happens.
    ...theyll bomb you with their F-16s.   Twisted Evil

    @b-2 handiwork pic.
    how cute, the super expensive and stealthy B-2 is used to dig potholes on runways. Wouldnt 3 F-117s be much more efficient in doing the same, after all the fuel bill for b-2 when crossing the atlantic for every bombing run alone would cost a lot. wouldnt you agree?
    Also, its not like there is an airforce that can use those runways anyway- if anything I would be more cautious with such targets since they could be sam-traps waiting to be sprung.

    Regarding ABM, I really think russia has the upper hand there, specifically because like in F-22 they are trailing behind, learning from the leader's mistakes. It also helps that russia does not need to face advanced nuke offensive capabilities. If anything they are just piling up the advantage in the offense side of things while not lagging far behind ABM capabilities.
    SOC
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    Post  SOC Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:06 am

    havok wrote:
    TR1 wrote:They will never get over the fact that the ancient S-125 blasted the F-117 out of the sky. It is hilarious.
    Only one? There were some 60 B-2 sorties over there as well. What happened to Zoltan Dani's awesome mods that involved 'electromagnetic waves' ?

    The B-2 is a larger aircraft and less susceptible to VHF-band signals. Anything smaller can be located using a VHF-band system. SPOON REST is a VHF-band system. See where this is going?

    Here's what likely happened, based on what I can think of off the top of my head. The Serbs had gotten intel on ingress and egress corridors, as NATO was stupid enough to keep re-using the same corridors. I suspect Zoltan Dani's radar mod had to do with allowing inputs from the battery's EW asset, a SPOON REST, to direct missile launches. The S-125/SA-3 is command guided, so it locks on to absolutely nothing whatsoever. The fire control system does the locking-on, and sends guidance commands to the missile. SA-2/S-75 worked the exact same way. Problem: VHF-band SPOON REST, being a very old system, is only a 2D radar, lacking the ability to provide altitude. So, what do you do? You notice that SPOON REST has a hit that no other sensors are getting, or you notice a certain type of return if the LOW BLOW TER is off, and that means F-117. You ripple-fire a few missile to intersect with the general coordinates, with the missiles tracking to different altitudes to make up for the lack of 3D targeting. Then all you do is hope one makes a proximity hit, which one did. They found a tactic that they thought would work, and made it work. Still fits with the idea of dodging missiles, as at night, you're going to notice an SA-3 launch. Plus, you may grab a view of the second-stage sustainer going off.

    Someone asked if it's possible to fire a missile "blind" like this and hope to hell you hit something. Yes, if the target is flying a stable flight path, it's all ballistics. Probably going to need to fire a few to ensure you get something close enough to proximity fuze, but it's not an impossible task and would obviously work far better on a cooperative target.

    havok wrote:the people there have real military aviation experience

    Rolling Eyes  Yup, no military experience whatsoever around here.

    havok wrote:Yeah...We heard that before.

    They don't even have to go that far. A lack of CONUS air defense leaves it susceptible to LO cruise missiles like the Kh-101/102. And ABM systems still have a hard time dealing with a depressed-angle SLBM shot.

    GarryB wrote:Perhaps if the Serbs had a modern SAM like Pantsir-S1 the US and NATO would no longer have an air force...

    Don't be a butthole and use bad examples, SHORAD systems are far more useful for anti-helo and anti-PGM work since they can be overflown. What you should be mentioning is Gen. Jumper's published concerns that if the Serbs had managed to get an S-300P active things would've been far more dangerous. Twisted Evil
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    Post  Zinuru Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:58 pm

    havok wrote:
    Zinuru wrote:I thought that after the Brown-Coonts debacle you wouldn't dare to show up again. But since you did, here is some real life info for you:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dale_Brown
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Coonts
    You would think they know what they are talking about but rarely will you find dumber fairy tale tellers. Technical errors and political bullshit are beyond pale for career AF officers even in fantasy. And all this crap is perfectly verifiable according to you.
    An American saying goes: Once a bullshitter - always a ... Finish yourself.
    What 'debacle' are you talking about? Did you even read of Brown's and Coonts' military experience? They are fiction writers. Do you even know what the word 'fiction' mean? Technical errors? I doubt you even read any of their books. There are plenty of movies involving the F-16 where the pilots moved the control sticks. F-16 people know that is not true. The control stick does not move so visibly. In the movie 'Top Gun', there was a trophy. The real 'Top Gun' program have no such trophy. These are not 'technical errors' but liberties for the sake of story telling and those who know better have no problems tolerating these liberties. That is why the special ops community can enjoy the 'Rambo' series even though they know the actions are pure bunk.

    I am sure people "with real military aviation experience" do enjoy your liberties.
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    Post  medo Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:29 pm

    Considering S-125 and F-117 in war over Serbia in 1999, there are some points to be explained. S-125 officially hit 2 F-117, 1 was shot down and 1 was damaged. It also shot down 1 F-16C.

    Second thing is, That it was not 1 S-125 battery against 1 F-117. Serbian air defense in that time have limited number of S-125 batteries as majority of Kubs protect ground forces in Kosovo. 1 S-125 battery with 1 Low Blow targeting radar could guide only 1 missile on 1 target. I'm not sure, but I think Serbian air defense have around 20 - 30 S-125 batteries, so they could engage simultaneously only 20-30 targets if they all work at the same time. As they make movings to reserve positions and other tactics, this number was reduced, so in the same time only around 5 batteries could engage targets in whole Serbia, what mean only 5 targets could be engaged simultaneously. They also shot down many cruise missiles and UAVs. What is more important is, that this small number have to fight against around 1000 NATO planes, but let say around 100 NATO planes were inside Serbia in same time. So 5 missiles against 100 planes in heavy ECM environment and intensive SEAD/DEAD campaign through all time, it clearly show, in how hard condition S-125 batteries worked. S-125 is not very mobile and is technology from fifties (become operational in 1960), so they have to work with radar very short time, that antiradar missiles could not lock on them. And after launch they have to change position. It shows how well crews were trained. In all this they manage to see F-117 on search radar, lock it with tracking radar, launch missile and guide missile to F-117 to hit it, all in heavy ECM and SEAD/DEAD environment.

    If Serbia have few hundred S-125 batteries, that at same time at least 100 missiles could be guided to 100 targets, you could bet, that there would be far more NATO planes downed, because ratio between NATO planes and Serbian AD batteries wouldn't be so much on NATO behalf.
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    Post  Viktor Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:37 pm

    medo wrote:Considering S-125 and F-117 in war over Serbia in 1999, there are some points to be explained. S-125 officially hit 2 F-117, 1 was shot down and 1 was damaged. It also shot down 1 F-16C.

    Second thing is, That it was not 1 S-125 battery against 1 F-117. Serbian air defense in that time have limited number of S-125 batteries as majority of Kubs protect ground forces in Kosovo. 1 S-125 battery with 1 Low Blow targeting radar could guide only 1 missile on 1 target.

    2 missiles on 1 target.



    medo wrote:

    I'm not sure, but I think Serbian air defense have around 20 - 30 S-125 batteries, so they could engage simultaneously only 20-30 targets if they all work at the same time.


    BIGGEST objection of Russian PVO experts regarding Serbian PVO (besides old systems that where not properly maintain and low numbers of everything Very Happy)  was total absence of ANY

    command posts of even the most oldest kind like the Russian Krab from Vietnam war.

    That system alone has the capacity to increase effectiveness of PVO (no matter its utter obsolence) by factor of 2-3. So while you are right regarding the number of theoretically

    maximum possible simultaneously engaged targets in reality it is not possible to coordinate shootings to anything more than a few targets at the same time.

    For that reason alone S-300 was NATOs biggest concern. Because beside its well respected capabilities its coomand post could unite all Serbian SAMs in a single unified fighting body

    simultaneously increasing shooting performance of all SAMs.





    medo wrote:As they make movings to reserve positions and other tactics, this number was reduced, so in the same time only around 5 batteries could engage targets in whole Serbia, what mean only 5 targets could be engaged simultaneously. They also shot down many cruise missiles and UAVs. What is more important is, that this small number have to fight against around 1000 NATO planes, but let say around 100 NATO planes were inside Serbia in same time. So 5 missiles against 100 planes in heavy ECM environment and intensive SEAD/DEAD campaign through all time, it clearly show, in how hard condition S-125 batteries worked. S-125 is not very mobile and is technology from fifties (become operational in 1960), so they have to work with radar very short time, that antiradar missiles could not lock on them. And after launch they have to change position. It shows how well crews were trained. In all this they manage to see F-117 on search radar, lock it with tracking radar, launch missile and guide missile to F-117 to hit it, all in heavy ECM and SEAD/DEAD environment.

    If Serbia have few hundred S-125 batteries, that at same time at least 100 missiles could be guided to 100 targets, you could bet, that there would be far more NATO planes downed, because ratio between NATO planes and Serbian AD batteries wouldn't be so much on NATO behalf.

    Agreed.

    Would be interesting to see US performance if the roles where reversed and the US solders where manning old Russian PVO systems and Serbians attacked with hundereds of cruise missiles

    and thousands of planes with all its allies in the region Twisted Evil
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    Post  TR1 Fri Feb 28, 2014 2:54 am

    SOC:

    For your theory, we are talking about a fair amount of airspace volume no?

    How many S-125s would they even need to employ to get any chance to hit a target in such a rough area? I don't think he had that many launch posts at this disposal.

    Just seems very....unlikely.
    Especially since they hit two of them.

    Was there any analysis done of the wreckage (that we know about) to see if it was a direct or barely hit?
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    Post  SOC Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:11 am

    TR1 wrote:SOC:

    For your theory, we are talking about a fair amount of airspace volume no?

    How many S-125s would they even need to employ to get any chance to hit a target in such a rough area? I don't think he had that many launch posts at this disposal.

    Just seems very....unlikely.
    Especially since they hit two of them.

    If you know the general altitudes that the corridors are at, it narrows things down considerably. Remember the thought is that these guys had the corridors figured out somehow, either by constant monitoring or from intellgience sources, or both. Get a SPOON REST hit in the corridor, and if you know the altitudes used you can work things out to give yourself a chance. Also, if you're firing without LOW BLOW input, you can possibly get around the two missiles per target restriction. Plus, hell, maybe it was having to maneuver around the first couple of missiles that took him into the path of another?

    At any rate it's at least infinitely more possible than the idea of a stealth, supersonic B-52 pwnd  The idea of the former is damn near impossible given the airframe design, and the latter would likely rip the wings off given the additional stresses and the amount of thrust you'd need.

    TR1 wrote:Was there any analysis done of the wreckage (that we know about) to see if it was a direct or barely hit?

    I don't know? If there was it'd have to have been from the photos shown on the TV as they (the locals) got to the wreckage pretty quick.
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    Post  Indian Flanker Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:32 am

    F-22 is no doubt a great aircraft(sans its maintenance problems), but I think Su-T 50 is going to be better than it in :

    1) Close WVR fight( read Dogfight)

    2) Versatility( able to perform other roles than just air superiority)

    3) Maintenance

    4) Flight cost


    And hopefully, it'll as stealthy as F-22 and as good BVR fighter( if not better).


    Even as a flanker fan, I will concede that Americans have pretty much mastered the BVR fight domain.


    Hopefully our version PMF/FGFA is also ready soon Very Happy 
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    Post  GarryB Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:12 am

    Har...Plenty of Russians found the American way far more palatable than the Russian way.

    There is no American way or Russian way, both are democratic countries with free market economies... the difference is that one enjoys a generally better climate and has a lot of infrastructure already in place and paid for... though both could probably do with a lot of money spent on it.

    Another difference is that Russia is actually spending money on upgrading its infrastructure and military, while the US has an empire to keep properly funded and a military machine that has become insatiable.

    Kool stuff that are still behind US. The PAK is still debatable whether it is 'stealth' or not.

    Russia has a range of systems and equipment that is well ahead of the US.

    The ADS bullpup rifle able to fire above water and underwater effectively, the Igla-S is better than Stinger the Kornet-Em and Metis-M1 is better than TOW and Javelin, the Su-35 is better than the F-15 or F-35, the Mig-35 will be rather better than the F-16 or F-35, and the PAK FA will be rather better than the F-22.

    The S-400, S-350, S-500 will all be better than their American or European equivalents just like Morfei and Pantsir-S1.

    And now they are upgrading their entire armour fleet with a new generation system.

    Who are Russia's friends? Iran? Syria?

    The two most heavily populated countries on the planet... China and India... remember the US picking Taiwan and Pakistan?

    Zelko recalled his RWR did not record a lock. Back during the Vietnam War, North Vietnamese air defense often launched without acquiring locks, especially when tracking radars encountered jamming. Overall, it averaged out to 3 missiles to bring down an American aircraft. The tactic is called 'spray and pray'.

    Hilarious you think that... so without a lock what guidance commands were sent to the missile?

    As if YOU can give any credible technical explanation on what are those components, their integration, and how to counter them.

    ABM systems require lots of very accurate radars and also IR sensors to track targets... airbursting nukes and of course jamming and decoys will degrade their performance significantly and would be pretty simple and cheap.

    It would be nice if you do...

    I don't own any flags.

    I guess after all said and done and only one F-117 was lost that never made a ding in the air campaign, you really have no choice but to cling on to whatever little glory there is.

    The effect of stealth on the Kosovo campaign was practically zero... any success could have been replicated at much lower cost using cruise missiles.

    Yes, cruise missiles would not have been as effective against moving targets, but so few moving targets were actually hit that point is moot.

    Trillions of dollars spent and all you have to show for it are some very expensive hangar queens that look good in glossy magazines, but in terms of operational effectiveness are pretty much white elephants.

    First...The US (Roosevelt) wanted Indochina to be under UN administration towards independence.

    What he wanted is clearly not that relevant. What the US government did later on is what is relevant... and that was pick sides and bomb.

    The Ho-Sainteny Agreement effectively backstabbed the US regarding the UN Trusteeship plan.

    Well duh... why let the UN run the country when he can get control and autonomy from the French as an independent colony.

    Ho could not cement his position in North Vietnam, let alone all of Viet Nam. Too many other nationalists. So Ho enlisted France's help, as in troops and arms.

    Well shock horror... Afghanistan has done that to the US twice now... even the KLA managed to do that to the EU.

    Someone asked if it's possible to fire a missile "blind" like this and hope to hell you hit something. Yes, if the target is flying a stable flight path, it's all ballistics. Probably going to need to fire a few to ensure you get something close enough to proximity fuze, but it's not an impossible task and would obviously work far better on a cooperative target.

    But if you can't actually see the target you might as well be launching Grads as they are cheaper and you can fire 40 per vehicle.

    The idea that it was all luck is yankee BS... if it was all down to luck then the air power of the US and NATO combined on a single tiny country would have crushed in days the whole Serb war machine. The fact that 70 days after chasing their own asses NATO and the US were largely ineffectual with their application of airpower and in the end the old Soviet air force could have bombed the Serbs into submission much faster... with a lot less precision of course.

    Don't be a butthole and use bad examples, SHORAD systems are far more useful for anti-helo and anti-PGM work since they can be overflown. What you should be mentioning is Gen. Jumper's published concerns that if the Serbs had managed to get an S-300P active things would've been far more dangerous.

    S-300P is a huge system that is pretty mobile but hardly cheap and could not be deployed in large numbers without being noticed.

    I comparison the Pantsir-S1 can hit targets at 15km altitude which is as good as BUK.

    Even as a flanker fan, I will concede that Americans have pretty much mastered the BVR fight domain.

    Their best WVR weapon is the AIM-9X which the F-22 doesn't carry, nor does it have helmet mounted sights to even use high off boresight missiles.

    the West concentrated on BVR fighting after getting their hands on Mig-29s and R-73s from East Germany... the result was almost a shell shock that led to Black Hawks being shot down by F-15s because they were too afraid to fly close enough for a proper ID...[/quote]
    [/quote]
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    Post  NickM Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:28 pm

    GarryB wrote:The two most heavily populated countries on the planet... China and India... remember the US picking Taiwan and Pakistan?

    GarryB , seriously  Razz  No Russian worth his salt would call these two wretched countries as Russia's friends . China is a communist state , India , nominally a democracy .

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