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    Russia - USA Relations

    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Sat Jan 29, 2022 8:31 am

    auslander wrote:Statements from these two gentleman change nothing and unlike what Mercouris states, Mother will not wait a year or two years or five years or ten years to address this problem. In 6 months ukeland will be defacto, not officially but defacto, a nato member, ergo Mother will act long before that.

    Our Flots have sailed, there are no military men on our local streets, heavy movements of units from the eastern and central military districts heading west. Last evening and afternoon our local shops were totally mobbed, everyone is stocking up. Calm, but stocking up.

    I agree, Lavrov is not a man to be pissed about with by bunches of part time amateurs in Brussels and DC. He is on another planet by comparison and behind him are Putin, Shoigu and Gerosimov all three long time in job and hard as nails. Give a team like that the hint of a legal advantage, a primed and competent military with a secure economy and they will be like a dog with a bone, relentless.

    The Yanks do not have a clue as to either what they are up against or to how to handle it. Their reaction is almost 'How dare they'. This has the makings of a Cuba 2.0. Having spent the last 60 years believing their own propaganda they probably think they really showed the Russians in Cuba and Clancy wrote history books.

    Having committed what is probably one of histories greatest strategic blunders, forcing Russia and China closer together for self preservation over the past 10+ years, they are now faced with the results of those stupid, politically and MIC driven, short term decisions play out over the longer term.

    You are right about NATO, they are on a righteous roll that looks like they will just keep pumping more and more gear, gradually getting more capable, on a drip drip basis. A C-17 plane load here, then a C-5, then one of their fast supply RO-RO ships and so it goes. Then come the bi-lateral (not NATO of course) exercises.

    So, there are no 'sitting duck' targets left, by next week there will be 140 RuN ships of all sorts out at sea, driving up the need to monitor them to new levels. Personally I'm looking forward as the North Sea exercise gets going Smile

    Stocking up can be good, it distributes supplies widely and allows more to move into and down the supply chain.

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    auslander
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    Post  auslander Sat Jan 29, 2022 9:05 am

    "Having committed what is probably one of histories greatest strategic blunders, forcing Russia and China closer together for self preservation over the past 10+ years, they are now faced with the results of those stupid, politically and MIC driven, short term decisions play out over the longer term."

    This single sentence, sir, is an exercise in world shaking vast understatement. Apparently both Cookies Nuland and Blinky were told to piss up a rope when they asked Katai to 'urge' Russia to compromise, IOW Russia is supposed to bow to SehSha demands. Won't happen, plus the Chinese tossed this in for future reference: "If Washington provokes either China or Russia, the other one will not be indifferent." That, too, says reams. As I said earlier, Katai has our back as we move west.


    Last edited by auslander on Sat Jan 29, 2022 9:06 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : double word cut.)

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    Post  Hole Sat Jan 29, 2022 11:38 am

    And Iran can take care of the Middle East. No reinforcements for Europe from the american bases there.
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    Post  Backman Sat Jan 29, 2022 1:01 pm

    andalusia wrote:I just found this article stating that their was no promise of NATO not enlarging and Gorbachev says no; I would like an analysis of this article.  

    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2014/11/06/did-nato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/



    Even if there was a full binding treaty to not expand NATO east , the US would have dissolved NATO and made a new anti Russian military alliance and they would have done the same thing. So it's irrelevant.

    The Russians wanted to end the cold war. The Americans wanted to keep it doing. End of.
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    Post  Backman Sat Jan 29, 2022 1:10 pm

    auslander wrote:Statements from these two gentleman change nothing and unlike what Mercouris states, Mother will not wait a year or two years or five years or ten years to address this problem. In 6 months ukeland will be defacto, not officially but defacto, a nato member, ergo Mother will act long before that.

    Our Flots have sailed, there are no military men on our local streets, heavy movements of units from the eastern and central military districts heading west. Last evening and afternoon our local shops were totally mobbed, everyone is stocking up. Calm, but stocking up.

    But why did Putin wait all these years since 2014 ? I don't buy the idea that they were waiting to develop better weapons. Russia didn't need to develop better weapons to devastate Ukraine.

    Honestly , I don't know. What was the last 8 years all about ? Why didn't Russia demand these guarantees in 2015 or 16 ?
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    Post  DerWolf Sat Jan 29, 2022 1:53 pm

    Backman wrote:
    auslander wrote:Statements from these two gentleman change nothing and unlike what Mercouris states, Mother will not wait a year or two years or five years or ten years to address this problem. In 6 months ukeland will be defacto, not officially but defacto, a nato member, ergo Mother will act long before that.

    Our Flots have sailed, there are no military men on our local streets, heavy movements of units from the eastern and central military districts heading west. Last evening and afternoon our local shops were totally mobbed, everyone is stocking up. Calm, but stocking up.

    But why did Putin wait all these years since 2014 ? I don't buy the idea that they were waiting to develop better weapons. Russia didn't need to develop better weapons to devastate Ukraine.

    Honestly , I don't know. What was the last 8 years all about ? Why didn't Russia demand these guarantees in 2015 or 16 ?

    Propably coz Russian economy was more depent in that time from West, so Putin felt Russian economy needed to be sanction proof before steping up where are we today.

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Sat Jan 29, 2022 2:25 pm

    Backman wrote:But why did Putin wait all these years since 2014 ? I don't buy the idea that they were waiting to develop better weapons. Russia didn't need to develop better weapons to devastate Ukraine.

    Honestly, I don't know. What was the last 8 years all about ? Why didn't Russia demand these guarantees in 2015 or 16 ?

    You could easily make a bunch of arguments. Back then Russia was not self-sufficient in terms of food production. Given the sanctions on Nord Stream 2, and the increasingly smaller amount of products they can import from the EU, it makes less and less sense to bother having a non-adversarial relationship with Europe. Also, China has surpassed other nations and is now Russia's #1 trade partner.

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    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Sat Jan 29, 2022 3:23 pm

    This is the sentiment behind China having Russia's back.


    Chinese State Councilor and Foreign Minister Wang Yi on January 27 had a phone conversation with US Secretary of State Antony Blinken at the latter's request. Judging from the briefings from both sides and various comments, Wang overwhelmed Blinken. The initial statement released by the US did not mention so-called "human rights," Hong Kong or Xinjiang, while the statement issued by China showed that Wang criticized the US for still sticking with erroneous words and deeds related to China and demanded that the US should stop interfering in the Olympic Winter Games Beijing 2022, stop playing with fire on the Taiwan question, and stop creating various anti-China "small cliques."

    The Ukraine crisis appeared to be the focus of the conversation. Wang called on all parties to remain calm and pointed out that Russia's legitimate security concerns should be taken seriously and addressed. This sentence has been widely quoted by US and Western media, as if a rare nerve was touched. They believe it's a symbol of "deepening relations" between China and Russia.

    But doesn't Russia have legitimate security concerns in East Europe? As far as I'm concerned, the Ukraine crisis contains two aspects: first, Russia-Ukraine dispute; second, a serious confrontation among all relevant parties caused by the US and NATO's strategic suppression of Russia. The eastward expansion of NATO is so unnerving to Russia, almost pushing Moscow into a corner. Russia demanded that NATO, which is hostile to Moscow, not absorb former Soviet republic Ukraine and not deploy troops on Russia's border. The request is within reason.
    The US is strategically squeezing China and Russia at the same time. It's arrogant. It is pushing China and Russia together to strike back. Russia has suffered more pressure from the US.

    How it will resolve disputes with Ukraine is one thing. But when it comes to resisting a US crackdown, Russia is not alone. Most of the Chinese people will support it and are willing to see the Chinese government assist Russia in this aspect. Because we know well that if Russia is crushed by the US, this will bring no good to China at all. China and Russia have a comprehensive strategic partnership of coordination. They are not empty words.

    Given a "back-to-back" relationship between China and Russia, the US cannot do anything with the two great powers. That Russia and China are "not allies, but better than allies" has become an official statement. Let Americans carefully mull over the connotation of this expression. If it provokes either China or Russia, the other one will not be indifferent. Washington should expect this in the future.


    https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202201/1250189.shtml

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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Jan 29, 2022 8:41 pm

    Backman wrote:But why did Putin wait all these years since 2014 ? I don't buy the idea that they were waiting to develop better weapons. Russia didn't need to develop better weapons to devastate Ukraine....

    Because back then Russian population was chugging USA's democratic kool-aid by the gallons plus significant percentage was still on Soviet "brotherly nation Ukraine" kool-aid

    They know better now

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    Post  GarryB Sat Jan 29, 2022 10:19 pm

    The troop movements and preparations are to be expected on the Russian side... they presented the US with their red lines and security concerns and the US replied by saying no, but we can talk about agreements on missiles and location of forces and other such trivial stuff... and it seems to me that Lavrov has essentially said if you don't want to talk about our red lines then there is nothing to talk about...

    The really amusing thing is that the western media are so dumb and inconsistent... don't they realise that if 100K Russian soldiers inside Russian territory constitute a real invasion threat to the Ukraine then surely the coming naval exercises off Ireland are surely clear cut evidence of a highly likely invasion of the UK.

    Of course troop movements and preparations don't indicate they are going to invade anyone, but it does indicate they don't trust Kiev not to do something stupid or the US or UK mercs also in the vicinity to create a conflict... for which they will be very very ready.

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    Post  auslander Sat Jan 29, 2022 10:43 pm

    Backman wrote:But why did Putin wait all these years since 2014 ? I don't buy the idea that they were waiting to develop better weapons. Russia didn't need to develop better weapons to devastate Ukraine. Honestly , I don't know. What was the last 8 years all about ? Why didn't Russia demand these guarantees in 2015 or 16 ?

    8 years is a lifetime in weapons evolution and procurement. 8 years ago the dust was still settling after the fiasco of Maidan and Sevastopol/Krimea coming home to mother. 8 years ago the total rebuild of Russian Armed Forces was still at a fever pitch after the less than stellar performance of the Gruzya war in '08. 8 years ago the collective west still viewed Mat Rossiya as a neophyte in the diplomatic world, worthy of lip service only.

    Today, the collective 'west' shudders at the thought of half the Russian armed forces moving west from the central and east military districts and the entire Russian Navy putting to sea on a moment's notice. Today, the collective 'west' is poleaxed by the combination of Russian diplomacy with the fist of Russian Armed Forces backing her diplomacy.

    Today, in addition to Russian diplomacy and her armed forces you have to take into account the very close cooperation between Russia and Katai. This cooperation did not exist 8 years ago but today in no uncertain words Katai has our back as we move west.

    None of what I just said existed 8 short years ago. VVP and his team have achieved the Labors of Hercules in these short 8 years. Mayhap you should contact VVP himself and ask him why he didn't 'react' 8 years ago. I think he, Shoigu and Lavrov did. Patience is a virtue and you ain't seen nothin' yet.

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    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Sun Jan 30, 2022 4:06 am

    The usual US comments but some interesting statistics in it, especially on the German population's views.

    https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/victor-davis-hanson-why-putin-has-not-been-deterred

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    Post  auslander Sun Jan 30, 2022 6:24 am

    I have received reliable informations that have now been verified by a second reliable source. Seems the orcs are packing up 'sensitive documents' and moving them west under guard. Destination is not known but definitely out of the west side of Kiev.

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    Post  auslander Wed Feb 02, 2022 3:54 am

    Cat seems to be out of the bag, complements of Spain.

    https://elpais.com/infografias/2022/02/respuesta_otan/respuesta_otan_eeuu.pdf

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    Post  magnumcromagnon Wed Feb 02, 2022 9:55 am

    auslander wrote:Cat seems to be out of the bag, complements of Spain.

    https://elpais.com/infografias/2022/02/respuesta_otan/respuesta_otan_eeuu.pdf

    Russia - USA Relations - Page 35 Somebody-give-this-man-a-cookie

    ...It's as we thought, it was a complete Nothing Burger, with a side of non-existent Freedom Fries, complimented with a large Bilk Shake.

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    Post  JohninMK Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:37 am

    auslander wrote:Cat seems to be out of the bag, complements of Spain.

    https://elpais.com/infografias/2022/02/respuesta_otan/respuesta_otan_eeuu.pdf

    Fear not, the detail is in English and it is a pirate copy of the NATO response to the Russian demands. The one that Lavrov said the authors should be embarrassed. Laughing Laughing
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    Post  GarryB Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:27 pm

    Pretty clear what is going to happen... HATO has essentially said Russia or any other country has no right to dictate who can or cannot join HATO.... it is between HATO and the country concerned.

    So Putin can therefore say, well in that case any defence agreements with Iran and North Korea and Cuba and Vietnam and Venezuela and Nicaragua and a range of other countries and Russia is none of HATO business... only Russia and China and the countries concerned.

    I rather suspect BRICS might expand and get more attention as an economic organisation working to help all the members work together and grow and develop their own countries.

    The US rejecting Russian resources is a bad mistake, but pushing those resources and technology and know how to help China and India and the third world might knock them off their pedestal and realise being totally selfish censored is not going to cut it in the 21st C and moving forward... the world isn't big enough for all countries to act like the US has.

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    Post  Maximmmm Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:19 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    auslander wrote:Cat seems to be out of the bag, complements of Spain.

    https://elpais.com/infografias/2022/02/respuesta_otan/respuesta_otan_eeuu.pdf


    ...It's as we thought, it was a complete Nothing Burger, with a side of non-existent Freedom Fries, complimented with a large Bilk Shake.

    Now you made me want a big ol' burger with a huge side of fries Laughing

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    Post  GarryB Thu Feb 03, 2022 6:07 pm

    But why did Putin wait all these years since 2014 ? I don't buy the idea that they were waiting to develop better weapons. Russia didn't need to develop better weapons to devastate Ukraine.

    Honestly , I don't know. What was the last 8 years all about ? Why didn't Russia demand these guarantees in 2015 or 16 ?

    This situation is an internal civil war between two groups of Ukrainians... the country had a coup and the government was overthrown in 2014 and certain regions resisted the rule of that new regime.

    The Minsk agreements were supposed to facilitate dialogue between the warring factions so they could talk things through and work things out... instead Kiev kept refusing to talk to the opposing faction and demanding to talk to Russia which is totally ironic because it shows a mirror to reality... both Poroshenko and Zelensky are trying to prove to everyone especially their own people that this is a fight between Europe and Russia with Kiev representing Europe and the Donbass and Lugansk region people being a Russian invasion.

    It is ironic because in actual fact Kiev does not decide anything and if Russia wants progress then they need to talk to the facilitators... the ones feeding loose change into Kiev to keep it afloat and aggressive.

    All this time Putin has refused, quite rightly because he has no mandate to tell these groups what to do... they are not Russia.

    Now things are boiling over... HATO wont stop expanding and therefore wont stop the anti Russia rhetoric which hinders trade and good relations for Russia and its neighbours, and Russia is getting to the point where they don't actually need the west any more and cutting them off and turning both to China but also to the rest of the world has better future prospects that banging their heads against a wall like they are doing with the west.

    Turning to the rest of the world isn't forever... if the EU ever grows a pair and wants to cooperate and trade with Russia, Russia will of course be interested... but Russia wont be dictated to or lectured and certainly will no longer accept western meddling in her internal affairs as has been happening in the past.

    Future attempts like Navalny might result in Russia actually starting to agitate and destabilise the west for a change.... how stable is that house of cards? I suspect not very.

    The ideal result for Russia in this situation would be for Kiev to follow the Minsk accords and talk to the breakaway regions before they make the breakaway more permanent.

    I suspect many would be happy if they just drop that law regarding speaking Russian... but after 8 years of bullshit and shelling they might have had enough of Kiev by now and want independence... but whose fault is that?
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    Post  PhSt Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:09 pm

    Sounds like the US is in panic mode lol


    US warns China against helping Russia

    State Department spokesperson Ned Price threatened Chinese businesses with economic punishment if they decide to work with Russia through any hypothetical sanctions imposed by US President Joe Biden.

    During a press conference on Thursday, Price claimed the US has “an array of tools that we can deploy if we see foreign companies, including those in China, doing their best to backfill US export control actions, to evade them, to get around them.”

    “If Russia thinks that it will be in a position... to mitigate some of those consequences, by a closer relationship with [China], that is not the case. It will actually make the Russian economy, in many ways, more brittle,” Price warned, in reference to hypothetical US sanctions against Moscow over a hypothetical Russian invasion of Ukraine.

    Price continued to warn Russia it cannot survive without the West, claiming that “if you deny yourself the ability to transact with the West, to import with the West, from Europe, from the United States, you are going to significantly degrade your productive capacity and your innovative potential.”


    In the same press conference, Price claimed to have US intelligence evidence that Russia was planning a false flag attack in Ukraine to justify an invasion of the country. Price was berated, however, by an AP journalist for refusing to provide a single piece of evidence to the public to justify such claims.

    Moscow has repeatedly dismissed accusations that it’s planning an invasion of Ukraine as “hysteria” and "fake news," and even Kiev at one point has criticized Western officials and media for damaging its economy with constant fear mongering about an “imminent” war.

    https://www.rt.com/russia/548266-us-warns-china-russia/

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    Post  kvs Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:15 pm

    The retards think that their sanctions stick can hurt Russia, just wave it around harder and it will be different this time.
    In 2014 Obummer was running around claiming that Russia's economy was imploding.   Now these f*cks pretend they were
    not being serious in 2014 and will really, truly get serious now.

    clown clown clown clown clown clown

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    Post  auslander Fri Feb 04, 2022 2:03 am

    Foggy Bottom going after Katai with 'sanctions against Russia' is the same as taking your Colt 1911, shoving it down the front of your trousers and pulling the trigger. They are insane.

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    Post  LMFS Fri Feb 04, 2022 2:11 am

    Incredibly childish outburst, even for their standards. Someone change their diapers please Laughing Laughing Laughing

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    Post  auslander Fri Feb 04, 2022 2:15 am

    LMFS wrote:Incredibly childish outburst, even for their standards. Someone change their diapers please.

    Stupud is as stupud does. Unbelievable, to be honest. Sanction your backshop and main supplier? Damn.....

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    Post  kvs Fri Feb 04, 2022 7:03 am



    The US response was actually proper but the NATzO response was put together by retarded chimps. Highlights the nature
    of bureaucracies. NATzO is a rotten bureaucracy worried about being shut down for lack of purpose.

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