Russia - USA Relations

Trump might not have been in the pocket of the usual military industrial complex elites in the US but he was in the pocket of the Jewish lobby.

Without the MIC or big money no matter what the religion you can't win the presidency in the US...

Any US made commitment, would be considered as humiliating for them, just another fuckup in a strain of ex-Hegemon fuckups. A no-go scenario.

Any concessions to Russian interests would not be acceptable... Russia is not allowed a sphere of influence or to have interests other than enriching the US, which is the goal of the west.

Might as well state what you actually want... even if they offered to agree how could you believe them?

This is not about agreements that can be walked out of next Presidential cycle, this is Russia laying down its boundaries... when the west crosses them we will likely see Russia deliberately cross western red lines... and that wont be moving 100,000 troops within its own borders on an exercise.

Let it be a relocation of some strike assets to Cuba or Venezuela. Let it be another big base, let it be a missile one, in Syria. Maybe the next time Jewish F-16 will appear over Lebanon, there will be some nasty surprise heading their way.

I think Russia is at a point where it is going to be expanding its navy, so it will also expand its horizons in terms of trading partners and a lot of those partners are going to be in Africa and the Americas which is going to step on toes in europe and the US... so by setting out their red lines now, when the west crosses them, they will be free to openly do as they please, and what they will be doing will be in their interests so even if the west then decides to agree to their demands... which they wont, I don't think Russia will want to stop what they are doing either.

Pandoras box will be open.

Russia has acted VERY restrained for the last 20 years and allowed the West to overplay their hand very, very badly. Now Russia has all the cards still in their hand and each one of them that they use will mean a significant loss for the empire, while their rivals have already spent most of theirs with little effect

That is important too... Russia needs to be very selective and very careful what they commit to doing in response because it could very easily backfire against them like all of Americas stupid actions to try to annoy Russia.

I don't think China will stand still if this escalates between NATO and Russia, not because of love for Russia, but because the Chinese know very well that they are also part of the NATO "package" and that they are next. I am convinced that they are now (NATO) stinging China as well.

The really amusing thing is that Russia and China have a lot of vested interest in their silk routes from Asia to the EU, to make trade quicker and easier and cheaper between those to regions and for the places in between to trade in either direction... these are the actions of pro EU countries, but the US led HATO is forcing the EU countries within it to oppose them like they are enemies trying to invade and destroy them...

The American political and military leadership wants to rule the whole world through the NATO pact, so they suddenly want Sweden and Finland in the NATO pact.

They want to rule the world by controlling the EU instead of allowing it independent thought and action and freedom to trade with Russia and China and Asia and every country on the Eurasian continent that is part of the new silk routes...

Then you underestimate the ideological leaning of the US military. See General Milley and Secdef Austin. Also remember the generals are fighting among themselves currently.

Most military men and women in the US are interested in angling a cushy job in the private sector for after they retire to add a $500K per year income to their pension for a few years...

Anything they used to believe in was expunged to help them climb the ranks... you wont get very high with the wrong mentality or attitude.

They are like the corrupt soviet elite who fractured USSR to retain their own political power.

More precisely to turn their political power into financial excess... they had power but there was no way they could live the life of actual billionaires under communism...

I do happen to agree that it's bluff... but open to be wrong of course.

If relations with the west remain the same or get even worse it simply makes sense for Russia to cut ties and relations and look to the rest of the world... there are plenty of countries out there... but it would need to expand its naval programmes accelerate a few projects like new destroyers and new cruisers and carriers, and of course it will need places to go...

What a piece of shit. The same tactic as when the pieces of shit said that Russia didn't fire on the British ship in Crimean waters.

Taking decisive measures sounds very indecisive and vague to me...

They have already tried regime change multiple times in Venezeula and Cuba and failed miserably every time... the last plan for Venezuela was to break prisoners out of a prison and take them to a nearby army arms depot and arm them with military weapons... I am sure the vast majority of Venezuelans will understand that is not a good future... not an ally with their best interests at heart...

I don't want anyone to fall to Balkanization. Wouldn't wish that on anyone. The American people are becoming a prisoner of their own empire as the Russian people once were. Well actually we still are as well.

I wish them the best, but they should move a little away from our borders, not healthy for either side.

They need to stop believing the bullshit propaganda from their government about boogeyman Russia that is going to invade and attack them in their beds and realise what a terrible job both of their political parties are doing, they are more interested in fighting each other and blocking each other than doing what is best for the average American... their political system is broken.... the person who get elected by popular vote means charisma and charm can get you elected against someone more competent to actually do the job, and we can clearly see America is built on and addicted to wars no matter what party is in office, so they don't even have that much control anyway.

Money controls the country and the rich and powerful are only interested in retaining power and making more money... everything else is the Russians are coming...

The political debates don't even include all the candidates, and half the people vote based on the party they identify with anyway...

Their elections take longer than elections in India.

I think Russia should deploy some SU-34s to Cuba and conduct supersonic low level training flights every day from 12 am to 4 am over Gitmo.

I think the entire area of land around Gitmo should be used as an open land fill to deposit rubbish and the worse smelling silage they can manage... build big mountains of the stuff around the US base.

Any ideas of a permanent air base or naval base are pipedreams. Russia will have to offer a security pact and serious economic aid to get that. Pretty sure the Cubans understand that the only reason the Russians are knocking is cause Uncle Sam is fucking them over backwards and told them to fvck off a few days ago.

Russia can just be honest... something a westerner like yourself wouldn't understand... Russia was in no condition to help anyone in the 1990s, and until recently any attention Russia paid to a country would result in the attention of the west and no country creating ties with Russia wants the attention of the west because it is all about regime change and sanctions. Russia respected Americas back yard because it was in no condition to defend those countries when the US came down on them and made their economies scream. Russia now has exports in machinery and food and other areas in addition to weapons so it actually offers a broader spectrum of trade than it has ever done in its past largely because western sanctions have forced it to either make things itself or find other sources like China.
Cuba is on the wrong side of America for China to send stuff easily without using the US controlled Panama Canal, but the north sea route offers them other options in addition to the Chinese plan to build another canal...

Russia does not need military bases around the planet, but Russian friendly ports where their military vessels can dock and civilian trade ships can come and go as they please would be enough... are you saying Cuba doesn't want a free trade agreement with Russia?

Putin and Shoigu might start smoking cigars...

If I'm a Venezuelan I will be asking for:

Tariff free access to the Eurasian Economic Union,
Russian investment in the oil sector (significantly more than currently). Cooperation in agriculture and other key industries etc.
Economic aid.
And most importantly, a security pact.

Why would Russia reject that?

If Russia has no right to veto countries joining HATO then no other country has the right to veto Russia entering into defence pacts with any country they decide.

Isn't that what Putin was saying?

We can't have a sphere of influence... a backyard so to speak... then neither can you... what do you think that means exactly?

I am sure Mexico would be interested in investment and trade.... most countries are interested in more trade...

Venezuela is already under an economic siege, but it's not as comprehensive as the economic siege on Cuba, as Americans still have assets inside Venezuela which they like to coddle to keep options open. You anger the Americans by placing their security at risk and challenging them and that's what Venezuela is gonna get... so someone will have to make up for it - aka Russia. Not to mention the budgets allocated for destabilization and terrorism within Venezuela will grow in magnitudes, easily 5-10 times as much.

That is the plan.

As the west crosses Russian red lines, Russia crosses Americas red lines... Russia will turn away from trade with the EU and US and start to look around the world for alternative trade partners for free and open trade... which will be a nice change from the blackmail and robbery they have been used to with the west...

If you're gonna bring that much heat to yourself, you better be making up for it, otherwise you'll be a fool.

That is why Russia is expanding its navy...

From the Russian perspective, Venezuela is also high risk, since its political system is vulnerable to destabilization, with many land-border neighbors. Cuba is your safest, most attractive option but it's also the one that will draw the greatest anger - and Russians will, trust, chicken out. Proven before.

They aren't going to limit themselves to two countries... they will likely try to boost trade and good relations with every country in the region that will talk to them... and after a few years of good trade with their neighbours where their neighbours go into space and get nuclear power stations and start to turn that third world status into second world status they are going to think perhaps maybe better relations with these Russians and these Chinese might be a good idea.

Fly the flags are inconsequential. So cross fingers Venezuela agrees to something stupid.

The US already had Venezuela on the naughty step and is not really giving her many other options... the same with Iran... Russia always had the option of helping, but hesitated to offer any real solid help because they were worried about responses from the US and the west in general, but now that things are coming to a head they seem to have stopped talking about the west as partners they can work with to refusing to reopen diplomatic ties with HATO, which Stoltenberg recently offered... they are clearly done talking with those idiots... so are they going to just sit alone in the dark and isolate themselves or are they going out to the rest of the world for trade and development ties and relations.

What exactly else did the US think would happen?

The country that endured 31 million dead during WWII, who faced the siege of Leningrad, who executed the trap of Stalingrad, would fold over some sanctions... were they going to burst into tears and demand the change to be a quivering little bitch at Americas feet doing everything they are told when they are told like the EU or Japan. The US even had the balls to ask Russia to join the sanctions against China to limit their growth and development... don't you read the great philosopher Terry Brooks.... ask Banedon... the dark lord shares power with no one.

When did "Westerner" become a dirty word?

If you only read books in the west and watch western news reports the west is the saviour of the human race, bringing light and the correct religion and culture to the darkest places on this planet.

But the actual actions of the west is what is making westerner a dirty word... just look at what the west did to Russia in the 1990s and the Ukraine right now... a weak pawn to be exploited and robbed... billions to be made by crooked westerners pretending to go in to help...

Which is why Russia is looking to find its own way forward that is not stained by the wests corruption of the ideas of old...  pretty sure the people first thinking about democracy didn't have this in mind...

Aren't you a "Westerner" yourself? Although considering the amount of propaganda trolls inhabiting this place I know better as to true origins. "Troll farm outfits" is a popularized term, although missing sometimes the point. A sport nonetheless.

Hahaha... yes, because western people only do things they are paid to do, but the fundamental problem is that troll farms are funded by people with lots of money and people with lots of money made that money within the current political system that enables them to use their money to make rather more money than could be made by working at any job they could possibly do.

Cry to sleep of American exceptionalism and "arrogance" but talks about "Westerners" as if they're the evil incarnate who can't comprehend, have symphathy etc... be human.

Of course... the children of drug lords get to remain in those mansions and get the money their parents made from murder and death that is the drug trade because it wasn't their fault... they were innocent... except that isn't true either is it... ignorance of the crimes of the west is no excuse... people like Assange and Snowden and Manning have been to jail or exile because of the fact that they broke some minor secrecy laws to reveal serious crimes on an enormous scale being perpetrated in our name, but those crimes are ignored and the whistle blowers are going to jail for minor crimes while the people responsible for the huge crimes go free and the power of those people is that clearly the people who own all the major media outlets have an interests in keeping those big crimes hidden and nobody cares.

By not caring you are essentially supporting the evil of all those original crimes... which means political power and money means you don't need to worry about the law... we see Epstein being prosecuted... and we wonder who he upset, or was he just thrown to the wolves to protect the rest... the other men and women doing this who will be a bit more discrete... perhaps their underage sex workers will be better looked after, or maybe they will just murder them so they can't talk in the future.

But this is just the plain objective of a propagandist/online "troll".... that is, to dehumanize the opponent, overcrowd, mislead, and misdirect. Very easy to find in Russian propaganda, very crude. Works well on those with strong tribal instincts who can't discern. Everybody does it I guess...including the Americans.... but it does serve to point out the suspects on either side quick. Pick them up easily from the crowd.

Russian propaganda... I have never been to Russia... I don't even speak Russian.

If anything this is western propaganda... this is a citizen of the west being critical of western society and western structures and western media that should be investigating this stuff but is part of the problem because it is owned by the pedos and the murders and the people Assange and Snowden and Manning and many others were exposing.

As a citizen of the west I have every right... in fact I would say I have a responsibility to call it out for its mistakes and problems and its errors... how else is it going to get fixed?

I guess the guessing as to what my nationality is continues.... gotta build a good straw man for character assassination and personal attacks.

Couldn't care less... it really doesn't matter.

HIlarious you want to claim to be the victim of personal attacks based on your nationality when you admit yourself we don't know what that is.

Talking of strawman arguments... my favourite is the racism card... you use a few racist words and build up an argument and then you let slip that you are not white or your wife is not white or you have not white children or relatives or friends... because that automatically make you not racist... except I don't think it does.

I don't care if you were born in Moscow... you are still wrong.

All this bullshit you spout of this great political game that the west seems to be a master at despite the damage they do to the world and themselves, and how weak Russia is and how strong the EU is despite taking full instruction from Washington to the degree that it is pathetic... even Putin said there is no point talking to the EU or HATO because they don't know the plan... it is all done in Washington, so why bother wasting time with anyone else?

A damage control specialist that...meticulously, like a machine, does it every single day, nonstop, cherry picking the targets, selective on the outrage, keeping the site afloat and on the "right" narratives track (at least attempting, reality has a way of breaking the mirage). Even a two year old kid can spot the patterns.

So you obviously have never had children.

What a sorry bunch. So transparent while fumbling...

Well we should appreciate more your attempts to save us from our ignorance... what have we done to warrant all this attention from you?

That debt was uncollectable, and unenforceable by any means. No one has collected on Cuba, no one (unless pennies count  lol1 ). Fidel told pretty much everyone to simply, **** off (it wasn't just Russia). Comecom ceased to exist.. end of debt right there (as they saw it) - the mechanism of exchange being different than what you have today. Putin merely tried to pick up a relationship shattered, and rebuild it back up to a stable state, out of interest, not goodness of the Russian heart.

Writing off debts is not something the west does very often to enemies let alone friends, and certainly never for free.

Russia could have kept the debt if they really wanted to, but saw lots of good reasons to write it off to move forward.

A gesture of goodwill being the entrance fee. For any fool would understand the geopolitical importance of Cuba on the geopolitical chessboard of Latin America. It's the only stable source of resistance for the last 70 years in that region, with a proven track record of active geopolitical fights. That's why they have a complete embargo on their asses too, that and well, refusing to be a bitch. Has cost them dearly too, not just in terms of development but also demographics wise... the price of true independence. Cuba got itself into the Belt and Road Initiative lmao. It's a China outfit, not Russian run.

Russia and China have so much in common with them it is scary... and now that the west is essentially denying equal status to Russia in terms of trade and diplomatic relations I am sure Russia is now going to shift its focus to the rest of the world which of course will start with traditional allies and then massively expand as far as they can manage...

This is going to be very good for Cuba and Venezuela as well as for Russia and China.

Of course the debt was non performing, but there are ways to collect. Debt forgiveness is always in return for "future considerations" any idiot know that DUH!!

They could easily have asked for the debt to be paid in sugar or cigars or leasing of port facilities or an expansion of Lourdes...  the fact that they chose to write it off shows they wanted a good relationship with Cuba going forward.

It would be nicer if it could resupply at a certain base in Cuba that's hush hush. Obviously in need of serious revamp, a bit of a expansion, and of course, the massive entrance fee.

Of course.... Cuba is going to bleed Russia like Americas allies bleed the US for military bases because Cuba is just like the US...  

Russia might offer to upgrade a few ports in Cuba in return for the exclusive use of part of one port where they can stop off for more regular visits.

Article is not sure whether it's a boomer or a hunter sub. Russian boomers will stay close in the Artic circle, no need at all to cross the Atlantic.

Actually operating in the southern pacific and southern atlantic would be a good way to nullify most of Americans EW systems which expect attacks over the north pole.

New ICBMs in Russia are specifically designed to fly over the south pole because of that... why not send a couple of boomers south too... it is not like they would run out of petrol...

Hunter subs do benefit from a closer center of operations, even nuclear ones. The more options, the better. Creates strategic uncertainty.

A country trying to combat western containment will seek to expand its operations globally rather than put all its eggs in one basket...

From the article, did you read it?

I do. Do you?

The only thing that's certain is that a Russian sub was in that area. What type of sub is contested between different reports/sources (as the article states). Then you should ask yourself, are there precedents? What is more likely to be true?

It's more likely for a hunter sub to be on the U.S East Coast - as has been customary in the past. Russian boomers don't need to, nor should they stray that far. In a probabilities scenario, a hunter sub takes the "guesses".

Itching for a W so hard.... yet tripping with a boomerang effect.

Yeah... you guys do know that the Akula SSN is a western designation, and Pravda is Russian so when they talk about the Project Akula sub they might be talking about the SSBN Typhoon class sub the Russians call Akula... which would also make it a SSBN... they were talking about sending a message to the US and a boomer sends a rather different message than an attack sub like the Project Pike class SSN... known in the west as the Akula.

Just checked and the whole story is based on Chinese expert opinion about a Russian sub operating near US waters for a long period without being detected... and based on this assumed it was either an Akula or a Borei, but the mention of the message it was supposed to be sending means it is rather more likely to be a Borei, which would also explain why they didn't detect or track it till they noticed it surfaced... and realised when it left port and worked out it had probably been in their waters for quite some time without them noticing.

mnztr wrote:First Howdy from Vlad :

Borei sub surfaces off US coast.

A few days have passed, and I do not see confirmation in any reliable sources. Most likely, this article is fake. First of all, no RCCS needs to approach the shores of the United States - their launch points are located far away in the Arctic Ocean.

I think they have worked out what this is really all about.

Treat Russia with respect and make some assurances to make them feel safer... accept Russia as a power in its own right.

But of course they wont and I suspect Putin never expected them to... this is the last chance for Russia and the west to compromise and work together but the west wont even agree that Russia has security concerns they can't be flexible on.

The result is going to be a divorce and separation... Russia is going to look elsewhere for trade partners... this might be difficult for the west to appreciate that Russia is no longer interested in working with them.

It is even more absurd when they reject all of Russians concerns and claim the real issue is Russia moving forces within its own boundaries to close to the Ukrainian border is the problem and Russia has to back off.... what by creating a demilitarised zone within their own country so Ukraine feels safe?

Russia does not want to incorporate any new part of the Ukraine into their territory... if they did why wait?

Just say Kiev is not honouring its agreements at Minsk to talk to the regions and negotiate relations with them.

Instead Kiev is shelling the regions and blaming the victims of the shelling for the attacks and wanting to talk to Russia who has no obligations under the Minsk agreement.

Russia is opening its border which will mean open trade and the chance for the locals to earn money and buy supplies.

Kiev wants to keep them isolated and under siege so eventually they will accept their terms and give in.

With Russia opening up the border it means these regions have a chance of working and getting themselves out of isolation and poverty... I am sure any coal they care to dig up can be sent by train direct to China and earn them good money and satisfy a demand in China. They likely have other things they can produce with market potential in Russia too.

Point is that they will have an economy while Kiev collapses around their ears.... hundreds of millions of dollars worth of aide coming in to Kiev at the moment, but it is in the form of weapons which they can't eat or use to keep the lights on... I rather suspect it will remain in its crates and be delivered to forward units who might just sell it on the black market to their enemies or to Jihadis in Syria... maybe that is the western plan all along... by gifting this crap to Kiev essentially they say they will be paying their own armed forces or MIC for the stock either in storage or production, and gifting it to Kiev means they will have to make more to fill the gap it left in their military stocks probably with newer stuff, knowing full well the stuff they gifted will likely appear on the black market which they likely influence, which means it will end up in the hands of ISIS in Syria or Afghanistan or Iraq or the Kurds in Syria or Iran...

Russias decision to open its borders is a good step forward to force Kiev to act... the question is... will they jump into the fire and get turned to ash or will they get the plums to talk to this region and start taking the situation more seriously.