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    mnztr


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    Post  mnztr Thu Dec 30, 2021 7:38 am

    kvs wrote:

    The sanctions that tried to sabotage the MS-21 project were petty spazzing by sore losers in Washington.   The Russian
    company making the composite wings could form half the wing in one go.   The US had no such ability.   So the natural
    response of sore losers was to sanction the supply of composite materials to the project.   Russia gave Washington the
    middle finger in 18 months and fully replaced the inputs.  

    Next time you hear some Washington aligned bitch whinging about Russian technological "inferiority" recall this case.   US
    loser bitches have a long history of taking the ball back to mommy when they can't win fairly.   They did the same thing
    in the early 1990s when they imposed import tariffs on NEC vector supercomputers.   Cray was totally outclassed by
    the Japanese and Washington could not tolerate such insolence from even its own "ally".   I recall this because it forced
    the adoption of crummy IBM parallel computers for HPC which I used.   The code had to be reworked from vector optimization
    to scalar architecture.   Now we have parallel HPC systems using commodity Intel CPUs.   I view this as a long term decline.
    A hybrid vector-parallel approach is superior for many real world needs such as fluid dynamics and the related atmospheric
    circulation models.  

    BTW, the recent move by U-rope to take Russian counter-sanctions moves to the WTO are a total joke.   Washington sabotaged
    the dispute resolution function of the WTO by blocking appointments of judges.   So U-rope will be going into an empty room
    and demanding Russia be convicted of a crime.


    Its impressive how quickly Russia was able to develop and manufacture suitable composite materials. They should now start undercutting Western aerostructures companies with this new process and local material they were forced to develop . Look foward to flying on an MC-21 someday vs the 737 MAX which I shudder each time I realize I have been tricked into booking.
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    Post  mnztr Thu Dec 30, 2021 7:41 am

    Looks like Putin and Biden are talking again tomorrow. Apparently Putin requested the call. I wonder what is afoot.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Dec 30, 2021 8:04 am

    Except the Soviet Union also had better technologies and weapons in the late 1950s. The US isolated them and eventually they stagnated.

    Rubbish... they had about parity of technologies across the board... and also an entire country ravaged by five years of war where both sides practised scorched earth retreats and cities were fought over repeated... and there was no Marshall plan of free money to rebuild in the form of loans from the US to pay for everything to be rebuilt... most of the late 40s and 50s were about rebuilding with a lack of able bodied men in most places...

    More importantly it wasn't the US against the SU... it was most of the western world against the SU all trying to hold her back or sabotage her.... along with countries that leeched off her because she was politically obliged to help such countries....

    The US is not the centre of invention and never was... it had money and ideas were attracted to the US and ideas were bought, but American engineers have no huge advantage over engineers of other nationalities... which is why you will see all sorts of ethnic groups in a US company... not the owners of course... just the people who work and do real problem solving.

    BTW, the recent move by U-rope to take Russian counter-sanctions moves to the WTO are a total joke. Washington sabotaged
    the dispute resolution function of the WTO by blocking appointments of judges. So U-rope will be going into an empty room
    and demanding Russia be convicted of a crime.

    Maybe Russia should reconsider being part of the WTO... it seems to be more trouble than it is worth and does not change the fact that most countries these days negotiate their own free trade agreements anyway.

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    Post  George1 Thu Dec 30, 2021 3:34 pm

    Putin-Biden call to boost Russian-US talks in Geneva on January 10, expert says

    https://tass.com/politics/1382885
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    Post  mnztr Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:08 am

    I think if the Russian demands are framed as an exchange for the benefit of mutual security, it would be hard for NATO to refuse. After all very few people are interested in a dumb assed Cold War II, other then the merchants of death. Almost everyone that went to the world cup in Russia had a great time. If the Russians offer significant security assurances anc concessions to NATO, the French and Germans will find it attractive, as will the Turks that wish for good relations with Russia. Hungary. Bulgeria and several other eastern European nations that don't want to bear the cripping cost of US gold plated weapons will also be in favor. Russia has a LOT to offer Europe in terms of agriculture, resources, market access and manpower. Several European nations have already joined Road and Belt in addition to Russia, so they are gonna be buddies under the Dragon anyway. **** the eagle.

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    Post  GarryB Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:43 pm

    Depends on the concessions... the US might demand a special category of weapons like hypersonic or doomsday so they can either ban or limit their deployment... in which case I would say no thanks.

    I am not expecting the US to suddenly become reasonable and trustworthy... they will want all sorts of concessions and even then wont drop sanctions which will require further concessions...

    Personally I think Russia should look to the rest of the world for trade and just ignore the west... EU and US... let them realise they are not important.

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    Post  Arrow Fri Dec 31, 2021 2:00 pm

    What what concessions to NATO ? Putin is to become the next Gorbachev?They were already working on concessions. No slightest concessions to the US and NATO.

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    Post  mnztr Sun Jan 02, 2022 9:47 am

    kvs wrote:In spite of the complaints, piped gas delivery to Russian regions has expanded spectacularly since the 1990s.   During
    the Soviet period it was common to have remote regions obtain gas in canisters.    In Russia people bitch as if all around
    the world every God forsaken crack gets urban level service.   No, in the real world people do without or move.

    I posted a video on this a while back.  

    Rural people seem to be the same everywhere. They want all the amenities of urban life but not the downsides. Somewhat impossible. In Canada many rural areas do not have gas lines and they have propane tanks that look like mini submarines on their property.
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    Post  mnztr Sun Jan 02, 2022 9:49 am

    Arrow wrote:What what concessions to NATO ? Putin is to become the next Gorbachev?They were already working on concessions.  No slightest concessions to the US and NATO.

    You don't really get unilateral concessions in international politics. Perhaps removal of missiles from Kaliningrad? Or reduction in forces there.
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    Post  mnztr Sun Jan 02, 2022 9:52 am

    GarryB wrote:

    Personally I think Russia should look to the rest of the world for trade and just ignore the west... EU and US... let them realise they are not important.

    The transition (which I think is already underway) would be extremely painful for the Russian people if its accelerated too much The question is, if Russia completly turns away from the West, will China continue to treat it fairly and as an equal?
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    Post  JohninMK Sun Jan 02, 2022 11:32 am

    Worth cut and pasting, an excellent summary.

    A fresh report and analysis at the non-interventionist think tank, Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft, traces the roots of today's US-Russia deteriorated relations and showdown over Ukraine back to the Bill Clinton administration in the 1990's.

    So much of current "debate" in public and media discourse is woefully lacking in even basic recent historical knowledge and context of the last thirty years since the collapse of the Soviet Union. Even in daily conversations people might get into with friends, family or neighbors - it's common to hear the charge of Russian "imperialism" and "aggression"... as if the Cold War never ended, or worse it's as if some think Putin represents some kind of resurrected Czarist empire.
    President Clinton and President Yeltsin, October 23, 1995. Source: William J. Clinton Library

    But Ted Galen Carpenter of both the Cato Institute and Responsible Statecraft has detailed four specific major Western provocations which has led to the ongoing Ukraine crisis 2.0 - and at a moment the Kremlin is demanding that NATO agree to 'no further eastward expansion' in the form of "security guarantees" to be negotiated starting January 10 in Geneva.

    "The one-sided, self-serving indictments of Russia’s behavior invariably ignore the numerous Western provocations that took place long before Moscow engaged in disruptive measures," Carpenter writes. "Indeed, the deterioration of the West’s relations with post-communist Russia began during Bill Clinton’s administration."

    Below is a section of the Responsible Statecraft report listing and explaining the four Western provocations that led to U.S.-Russia crisis today...

    Western provocation number 1: NATO’s first eastward expansion.


    In her memoir "Madame Secretary," former U.S. ambassador to the United Nations and secretary of state Madeleine Albright concedes that Clinton administration officials decided already in 1993 to endorse the wishes of Central and East European countries to join NATO. The Alliance proceeded to add Poland, the Czech Republic, and Hungary in 1998. Albright admitted that Russian President Boris Yeltsin and his associates were extremely unhappy with that development. The Russian reaction was understandable, since the expansion violated informal promises that President George H. W. Bush’s administration had given Moscow when Mikhail Gorbachev had agreed not only to accept a unified Germany but a united Germany in NATO. The implicit quid pro quo was that NATO would not move beyond the eastern border of a united Germany.

    Western provocation number 2: NATO’s military intervention in the Balkans.


    NATO’s 1995 air war against Bosnian Serbs seeking to secede from the newly minted country of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the imposition of the Dayton Peace Accords greatly annoyed Yeltsin’s government and the Russian people. The Balkans had been a region of considerable religious and strategic interest to Moscow for generations, and it was humiliating for Russians to watch impotently as a U.S.-led alliance dictated outcomes there. The Western powers conducted an even greater provocation four years later when they intervened on behalf of a secessionist insurgency in Serbia’s restless Kosovo province. Detaching that province from Serbia and placing it under U.N. control not only set an unhealthy international precedent, but the move also displayed utter contempt for Russia’s interests and preferences in the Balkans.

    The Clinton administration’s decisions to expand NATO and meddle in Bosnia and Kosovo were crucial steps toward creating a new cold war with Russia. Former U.S. Ambassador to the Soviet Union Jack F. Matlock Jr. cites the negative impact that NATO expansion and the U.S.-led military interventions in the Balkans had on Russian attitudes toward the United States and the West: "The effect on Russians’ trust in the United States was devastating. In 1991, polls indicated that about 80 percent of Russian citizens had a favorable view of the United States; in 1999, nearly the same percentage had an unfavorable view."

    Western provocation number 3: NATO’s subsequent waves of expansion.

    Not content with how the Clinton administration antagonized Moscow by moving NATO into Central Europe, George W. Bush’s administration pushed the allies to give membership to the rest of the defunct Warsaw Pact and to the three Baltic republics. Admitting the latter in 2004 dramatically escalated the West’s military encroachment. Those three small countries had not only been part of the Soviet Union, they also had spent most of their recent history as part of Czarist Russia’s empire. Russia was still too weak to do more than present feeble diplomatic protests, but the level of anger at the West’s arrogant disregard of Russia’s security interests rose.

    Expanding NATO to Russia’s border was not the only provocation. Increasingly, the United States was engaging in "rotational" deployments of its military forces in the new alliance members. Even George Bush’s secretary of defense, Robert Gates, expressed worries that such actions were creating dangerous tensions. Putin’s February 2007 speech to the annual Munich Security Conference made it extremely clear that the Kremlin’s patience with U.S. and NATO arrogance was coming to an end. Bush, tone-deaf as ever, even tried to secure NATO membership for Georgia and Ukraine — a policy that his successors have continued to push, despite resistance from France and Germany.

    Western Provocation number 4: treating Russia as an outright enemy in Ukraine and elsewhere.


    Western leaders did not take Putin’s warnings seriously enough, however. Instead, the provocations on multiple fronts continued and, in some cases, even accelerated. The United States and key NATO powers bypassed the U.N. Security Council (and a certain Russian veto) in early 2008 to grant Kosovo full independence. Three years later, Barack Obama’s administration misled Russian officials about the purpose of a “humanitarian” U.N. military mission in Libya, convincing Moscow to withhold its veto. The mission promptly turned into a U.S.-led regime-change war to overthrow Libyan leader Muammar Qaddafi. Shortly thereafter, the United States worked with like-minded Middle East powers in a campaign to oust Russia’s client, Bashar al-Assad, in Syria. The egregious U.S.-EU meddling in Ukraine’s domestic politics followed.

    It is unfair to judge Russia’s aggressive and destabilizing actions, including the annexation of Crimea, the ongoing military intervention in Syria, continuing support for separatists in eastern Ukraine, and attempted interference in the political affairs of other countries, without acknowledging the multitude of preceding Western abuses. The West, not Russia, is largely responsible for the onset of the new cold war.

    * * *

    It's likely that some of the above arguments will be the focus of debate within the coming weeks as Russian and US-NATO officials engage each other in Geneva. While US officials might feign having a short memory over these things, it's clear the Russian side is fully aware, and unwilling to let it go.

    For example, in his latest comments Friday, Russian foreign minister Sergey Lavrov underscored precisely that Euro-Atlantic countries have repeatedly contradicted and broken prior commitments. "Our proposals are aimed at creating and legalizing a new system of agreements based on the principle of the indivisibility of security and abandonment of attempts to achieve military superiority, which was approved unanimously by the leaders of all Euro-Atlantic states in the 1990s. I would like to emphasize that what we need is legally binding guarantees since our Western colleagues systematically fail to fulfill political obligations, not to mention voiced assurances and promises given to Soviet and Russian leaders," Lavrov said.


    https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/imperialist-russia-four-western-provocations-led-current-us-russia-crisis

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    Post  kvs Sun Jan 02, 2022 7:17 pm



    Recall the Magnitsky Act based on a tinfoil hat conspiracy theory that Putin offed Magnitsky because, muh, reasons.
    (His rotten boss Browder had the actual motive to off this corrupt accountant to prevent him from singing like a canary.)

    So the guards that were involved in the "suiciding" of Epstein are not even going to be prosecuted.   How convenient.
    If you want to see a country where the regime offs its opponents and that is the USA.   US jails are full of murder and
    mysterious deaths and suicides.   This is somehow considered normal.

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    Post  GarryB Mon Jan 03, 2022 4:47 am

    The transition (which I think is already underway) would be extremely painful for the Russian people if its accelerated too much

    But up until now the transition as you call it has been driven by the west with the west cutting Russia off from the west and Russia modifying the situation with counter sanctions of their own.

    I would say right now Russia and Russian companies are still being lazy... they are reaching for the easy fruit which overhangs their property but the fruit trees are in the EU.

    What they really need to do is set up a trade deal with someone that owns a real orchard who wont set his dogs on you and you can build that fence up so it keeps those bastards out because they spy on you and are doing everything they can to break you... why trade with that?

    Easy if almost always never better.

    The question is, if Russia completly turns away from the West, will China continue to treat it fairly and as an equal?

    Why wouldn't they? They are getting the same treatment as Russia has been now, with their own little military groupings to oppose them and piss all over their shoes in their own backyard.

    China needs energy, Russia has energy, China has a lot of things they can trade and Russia does too... I think Russia should be looking at Chinese high speed train technology instead of German high speed train technology for instance.

    Working with Russia to implement high speed train networks would lead to Russia but also that company overcoming obstacles and solving problems that will make them even better experts at building high speed train networks... with China getting the contract, Russia and China can learn together... screw the Germans.

    "The one-sided, self-serving indictments of Russia’s behavior invariably ignore the numerous Western provocations that took place long before Moscow engaged in disruptive measures," Carpenter writes. "Indeed, the deterioration of the West’s relations with post-communist Russia began during Bill Clinton’s administration."

    It also ignores the good things the Russians have done... most people have already forgotten that the Russians opened up a cargo corridor through their territory for HATO forces to supply their operations in Afghanistan, but abuse and problems from the west led to that being closed down.
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    Post  lancelot Mon Jan 03, 2022 5:11 am

    China is already building metro lines and stations in Russia. I would not be surprised if they built railroad lines as well.
    China produces some of the largest tunnel boring machines and they massively expanded their subway network over the past decade so they have plenty of experience. Russia still has a lag of like two decades after Soviet period where subways were not expanded properly. Only recently has this started to change but still mostly confined to the major cities.

    The rail trainsets are a bit of a problem because Russia already has a deal with the Germans to produce them. Using Chinese trainsets would require their conversion to the Russian gauge and other things like that which would take time.

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    Post  kvs Mon Jan 03, 2022 6:24 am

    lancelot wrote:China is already building metro lines and stations in Russia. I would not be surprised if they built railroad lines as well.
    China produces some of the largest tunnel boring machines and they massively expanded their subway network over the past decade so they have plenty of experience. Russia still has a lag of like two decades after Soviet period where subways were not expanded properly. Only recently has this started to change but still mostly confined to the major cities.

    The rail trainsets are a bit of a problem because Russia already has a deal with the Germans to produce them. Using Chinese trainsets would require their conversion to the Russian gauge and other things like that which would take time.

    That is misleading. Moscow has built more subway kilometers than Paris since 1990 and St. Petersburg has not been idle either.
    Compared to Russia, Canada is a total joke.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_Metro

    https://www.mos.ru/en/city/projects/metro2022/

    Construction on Moscow subway lines and extensions have been happening actively since 1990.

    1990s: 32.8 km and 19 new stations
    2000s: 42 km and 27 new stations

    2010-2018: 120 km and 66 stations (includes the ring railway which is basically a surface line).
    The planned expansion from 2011 to 2020 was 200 km and 100 stations and construction is ongoing.

    It took Toronto 40 years of talk to expand its subway network by 8.6 km with 6 new stations. Before dismissing this as merely the consequence
    of the North American car culture, Russia has implemented a huge expansion of its road network urban and rural since 1990. The current road
    network in Russia totally overshadows what existed in 1990.

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    Post  miketheterrible Mon Jan 03, 2022 7:00 am

    China isn't building Russian metro. These are done by Russian companies. I'm assuming you mean funding, right?
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    Post  GarryB Tue Jan 04, 2022 4:02 am

    Russia doesn't need China for building metros, I was referring to Russia using Chinese expertise and experience with high speed trains and high speed train lines and of course Russian technology will come in to play as well to further improve the technology and implement good products.

    Might even lead to improvements in Chinese trains too, but the point is that the two working together will improve the skills of both sides... why spend money on German companies because that would expand the capabilities of German companies and the EU and HATO are the enemy of Russia and China... they have made that clear on several occasions... including delaying certification of NSII for 6 months for no practical reasons... just political ones...

    Such difficult working partners should not be Russias first choice... or second or third...

    China has experience with high speed train networks and their experience of building brand new cities in the middle of nowhere from scratch and then moving people in there would be rather useful for Russia to look at... what could they learn and what would not apply because of the difference in Russian culture compared with Chinese culture...

    They talk about building million plus sized cities but could they also build staging points and arterial places along train lines that could be used for breaks and at junctions where cargo or passengers might transfer and stay a day or two to look around in the local area... small villiages could be custom built from standardised mini houses to be well insulated and with modern conveniences and local infrastructure could be designed to be low maintenance and self sufficient.... making life in the middle of no where more comfortable and appealing for people who want the comfort of a big city but don't like lots of people around all the time... like a country town or villiage...

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    Post  lancelot Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:15 am

    miketheterrible wrote:China isn't building Russian metro. These are done by Russian companies. I'm assuming you mean funding, right?



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    Post  miketheterrible Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:25 am

    Still didn't answer my question. China doesn't build them as it's Russian companies. So try again. Give official document.

    Edit

    https://www.railway-technology.com/news/moscow-metro-new-subway-line/

    So they build like 1/10 the line that was commissioned while Russia built the other 9/10.  So in other words, over exaggeration of China building metro in Russia. This was also back in 2018 and commissioned this year. Longer than it would take for Russia to build it cause they obviously had to verify the work.
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    Post  lancelot Tue Jan 04, 2022 8:14 am

    I did not claim the Chinese were building all subway lines and stations in construction in Russia.
    It is you who seem to have a problem realizing there are Chinese contractors in the Moscow metro when this was known for at least two years and I still had to post a video of the station inauguration and the Chinese workers and their machines, which has the name of the Chinese construction company, and you are still waffling.

    Plus like I said construction only picked up over the last decade as can be seen from your numbers in Moscow where they built more track this decade than in the past two decades prior.

    Whatever subway construction Russia has done, which is great, pales against the single expansion of the Shanghai metro, or any of the other over a dozen metro lines China built over the past two decades.
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    Post  miketheterrible Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:04 am

    Well let's see:
    - USSR built a shit ton during its tenure meaning China had a lot more to work towards as less developed.
    - Russia didn't need to expand nearly as much till lately since Moscow is ever growing.
    - Shanghai has stupid amounts of people in it. Chinas population density is all around those areas meaning the infrastructure has to forever increase.
    - lots of money in last decade and half to be able to build at such pace, mixed with cheap labor.

    But I'm happy China is able to do it. I wish we out west could. Instead, we buy bridges from China.
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    Post  Sujoy Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:52 pm

    GarryB wrote:I was referring to Russia using Chinese expertise and experience with high speed trains and high speed train lines
    Russia is building high speed train lines here in India.

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    Post  kvs Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:10 pm



    During Putin's discussion with Biden a few days ago, when Biden pulled out threats over the "invasion of Ukraine"
    (sanctions, blah blah), Putin did not bother to deny that Russia was going to "invade". Instead he made threats
    of his own. In particular full severance of diplomatic relations with the USA. Since Washington is still under
    the delusion that it can split Russia and China, this was not something Biden's handler's wanted to hear.

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    Post  Arrow Fri Jan 07, 2022 11:55 pm

    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/biden-admin-weighs-proposing-cuts-us-russian-forces-eastern-europe-rcna11080



    But Russia should not make any concessions. Because what kind?
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    Post  mnztr Sat Jan 08, 2022 12:01 am

    Arrow wrote:https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/biden-admin-weighs-proposing-cuts-us-russian-forces-eastern-europe-rcna11080



    But Russia should not make any concessions.  Because what kind?

    There are lots they can propose a DMZ between Russia and NATO for example. They can remove certain weapons form Kaliningrad if the US removes missile defense, or barring this they can start filling Kaliningrad up to the brim with hypersonic nukes.

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