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    Uzbekistan return to Russian sphere of influence

    kvs
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    Post  kvs Fri Nov 06, 2020 8:19 pm

    Turkey's claim on all of the Turkic peoples is some hard core nonsense. It would be like Russia claiming the right to rule
    all Slavs. That would never fly and would prompt anti-Russian crusades. But Turkey somehow gets to have pretensions
    on all of Central Asia and even on the Middle East. Pure imperialist BS.

    miketheterrible likes this post

    George1
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    Post  George1 Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:05 pm

    Tai Hai Chen wrote:Uzbekistan is the most hostile to Russia among the post Soviet Turkic states. The vast majority of terrorists in Syria are Uzbeks. Uzbekistan is the most Islamist of the post Soviet Turkic states and has the best relation with Turkey.

    all turkic countries have good relations with Turkey.. I think Uzbekistan like Turkmenistan and even Kazakhstan some times try to show that they arent russian "puppet" states like european countries are to US..So they make anything necesary to point out their turkic identity contrary to russian one..
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:19 pm

    They do for now, till Turkey tries to rule over them. And when they realize they themselves would lose power and or be abandoned by Turkey at the slightest, they will cry for Russian help.

    Always has been and always will be the case.

    kvs, PapaDragon and Rodion_Romanovic like this post

    kvs
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    Post  kvs Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:26 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:They do for now, till Turkey tries to rule over them.  And when they realize they themselves would lose power and or be abandoned by Turkey at the slightest, they will cry for Russian help.

    Always has been and always will be the case.

    The usual chihuahua statelet inferiority complex induced dementia.

    Rodion_Romanovic and miketheterrible like this post

    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:52 am

    https://aviation21.ru/v-uzbekistane-xotyat-vozrodit-tapoich-est-li-perspektivy-u-etix-planov/

    Uzbekistan wants to revive TAPOiCH. Are there any prospects for these plans?
    Published by 07.12.2020, 02:20 |  171
    On December 4, Minister of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation Denis Manturov made a working trip to Tashkent, where he met with President of Uzbekistan Shavkat Mirziyoyev and Prime Minister of Uzbekistan Abdulla Aripov.(...)

    A lot of wishful thinking from the Uzbeki side.

    The new president appears smarter than the previous one. Unfortunately for them, when Russia (about 10 years ago) asked them to have TAPO (the aircraft manufacturing plant in Tashkent, Uzbekistan) join UAC and participate to the russian aviation production plans they were not interested.
    At the time it may have made sense. Now, much less. The cost of reconverting the Tashkent mechanical plant, retraining personnel and acquiring modern equipment would be very high. And definitely Russia is not going to finance it. They still have Samara aviation plant almost unused, and if they have to rebuild an aircraft plant from nothing, it would be better for them to rebuild the one in Saratov.

    What can be done there would be a regional centre for maintenance of modern Russian planes (including MC-21).

    Maybe in the future, if they order some Il276 from Russia they could get to assemble some of them in Tashkent, of course with most of the parts coming from Russia.


    Note: they used to build the wing and center section of the
    An-124, but now of course all of those competencies are lost. Luckily Russia now can do that in Ulyanovsk.

    George1 and kvs like this post

    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Fri Dec 25, 2020 7:57 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:https://aviation21.ru/v-uzbekistane-xotyat-vozrodit-tapoich-est-li-perspektivy-u-etix-planov/

    Uzbekistan wants to revive TAPOiCH. Are there any prospects for these plans?
    Published by 07.12.2020, 02:20 |  171
    On December 4, Minister of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation Denis Manturov made a working trip to Tashkent, where he met with President of Uzbekistan Shavkat Mirziyoyev and Prime Minister of Uzbekistan Abdulla Aripov.(...)

    A lot of wishful thinking from the Uzbeki side.

    The new president appears smarter than the previous one. Unfortunately for them, when Russia (about 10 years ago) asked them to have TAPO (the aircraft manufacturing plant in Tashkent, Uzbekistan) join UAC and participate to the russian aviation production plans they were not interested.
    At the time it may have made sense. Now, much less. The cost of reconverting the Tashkent mechanical plant, retraining personnel and acquiring modern equipment would be very high. And definitely Russia is not going to finance it. They still have Samara aviation plant almost unused, and if they have to rebuild an aircraft plant from nothing, it would be better for them to rebuild the one in Saratov.

    What can be done there would be a regional centre for maintenance of modern Russian planes (including MC-21).

    Maybe in the future, if they order some Il276 from Russia they could get to assemble some of them in Tashkent, of course with most of the parts coming from Russia.


    Note: they used to build the wing and center section of the
    An-124, but now of course all of those competencies are lost. Luckily Russia now can do that in Ulyanovsk.

    Fantastic opportunity for Russia that it probably won't take because the bean-counters in the Kremlin only think short-term and look down at Central Asia; even despite orientating more attention to it in recent years and trying to expand the Eurasian Economic Union.

    And these anal-ysts who wrote the article with their faux-realism analysis and refusing to see the bigger picture are scarcely any better

    The fact is that Uzbekistan is by posing this question, offering a straight-up opportunity for Russia to consolidate it into its economy and political sphere of influence, which it has had little success with under Karimov throughout the 90s and 2000s. After becoming a hub for licensed Russian-aircraft production, Uzbekistan will no more return to the multi-vector crap; than Spain will opt out of the EU with France and Germany losing all the Airbus and related manufacturing it has because of it.

    There are 2 sides to the offer.

    The first is strategic
    . Uzbekistan is the most military powerful country in Central Asia, has the largest population by quite a margin which is growing by the day, and has preserved an independent foreign policy and neutrality more so than most other ex-Soviet states which either stuck to Russia or became bitches of Washington/Brussels. Tashkent has been a centre of industry since even the Russian Empire days and was a Bolshevik stronghold during the Civil War.
    Resource and territory-wise Uzbekistan isn't very rich and up to 40% of its territory is actually part of the Karakalpakistan republic which came close to declaring independence back in the 90s, but Tashkent basically tricked them and kept them in. But it's human potential is considerable, it's industries are still mostly around even if dilapidated, and there are still plenty of ex-Soviet minorities living there and making up a substantial part of its specialist and industrial class - Russians, Ukrainians, Tatars, Koreans, so on.

    Pulling Uzbekistan towards integration will serve to instantly check any Kazakhstan ambitions, where the svidomite opposition is gaining ground along with hateful Russophobia and plans to invite US military bases. I don't think Kazakhstan will remain stable over the next 5-10 years; whereas Uzbekistan is a far calmer country without any pan-Turk or svidomite retards present in an unreasonable quantity plotting to create problems.
    In this sense Tashkent is very much a prospective partner in the ex-Soviet space that neither demands to extract freebies from Russia like Lukashenko and the now ex-president of Moldova, Dodon - nor is it some current or prospective ethno-chauvinist state like the Ukraine, Baltics and possibly soon Kazakhstan.

    Secondly the economic aspect. Uzbekistan is actually on the path to becoming a Eurasian Economic Union member within short order, which will make this economic union essentially viable and an economic USSR-lite. This essentially means that for Russia, all these markets are open and it can export its products to them, while at the same time, the smaller producers in the ex-Soviet countries also have access to the Russian market without protectionist measures. The bigger deal for the ex-Soviet republics though, is that Russia can open up production there at lower-costs, and without any tariffs in the way. Work migrants will also be better protected and have access to more opportunities.
    So far then, just ordinary capitalism then, and the same deal as the EU, but also very much necessary, as Russian industry needs access to a larger market.

    But the more perspective stuff is really the revival of Soviet-era production chains and capabilities, and by so doing, create more competitive corporations that can compete in international markets.
    For Russian needs, the existing aircraft factories are indeed enough, and indeed the question of producing airlifters for the Russian military can only be settled on Russian territory.
    But the discussion is not about that. In the prospective future, there will be a need to expand the export potential of Russia's new lineup too. At present, the Russian capacities are enough for only a couple dozen aircraft a year; a slow pace for the military, and for its own airliners, and even though the pace is being ramped up, there will hardly be enough capacity to produce Il-476s, Il-214s, Il-114-300s, Il-112s, MS-21s and in the future Slons and so on - in any reasonable quantity for an export customer.
    The Tashkent plant can specialize for example in Il-112V and Il-114-300 production for the needs of Eurasian Economic Union and other export customers, both military and civil orders, and in the future for the Il-214 too; as these aircraft may well end up being quite popular for the needs of various regional countries militaries and civil airliners. Alongside with being a base for MS-21 parts and servicing for Central Asia.

    I don't buy the argument that production is so difficult to revive there or will require a huge amount of resources. Not to mention that Uzbekistan itself will be investing as well - the main thing from Russia that's needed are the actual designs, components/engines, specialists, new machinery and other forms of assistance. Il-76 production carried on until the early 2010s if memory serves and Il-114 production about as much. Il-76 capacity is likely not needed anymore, but the modernized Il-114 will still be very much in demand both in Uzbekistan itself and in other countries - only this time not with an American engine but a Russian one. The plant still has some activity, so clearly not all the personnel and machinery has been scattered or sold-off. A comparison with the former plant in Saratov is neither here nor there - that one was completely destroyed; there's just a small daughter company left with a hundred former employees or so that specializes in creating power-plants for old Yak-42 aircraft. The rest of the site has either been converted to shopping malls or some low-tech production of insulation and PVC pipes. The Samara plant is the only one left where production can be rejuvenated, but it's still in the midst of some legal dicking around.

    GarryB and zepia like this post

    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sat Dec 26, 2020 12:47 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:https://aviation21.ru/v-uzbekistane-xotyat-vozrodit-tapoich-est-li-perspektivy-u-etix-planov/

    Uzbekistan wants to revive TAPOiCH. Are there any prospects for these plans?
    Published by 07.12.2020, 02:20 |  171
    On December 4, Minister of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation Denis Manturov made a working trip to Tashkent, where he met with President of Uzbekistan Shavkat Mirziyoyev and Prime Minister of Uzbekistan Abdulla Aripov.(...)

    A lot of wishful thinking from the Uzbeki side.

    The new president appears smarter than the previous one. Unfortunately for them, when Russia (about 10 years ago) asked them to have TAPO (the aircraft manufacturing plant in Tashkent, Uzbekistan) join UAC and participate to the russian aviation production plans they were not interested.
    At the time it may have made sense. Now, much less. The cost of reconverting the Tashkent mechanical plant, retraining personnel and acquiring modern equipment would be very high. And definitely Russia is not going to finance it. They still have Samara aviation plant almost unused, and if they have to rebuild an aircraft plant from nothing, it would be better for them to rebuild the one in Saratov.

    What can be done there would be a regional centre for maintenance of modern Russian planes (including MC-21).

    Maybe in the future, if they order some Il276 from Russia they could get to assemble some of them in Tashkent, of course with most of the parts coming from Russia.


    Note: they used to build the wing and center section of the
    An-124, but now of course all of those competencies are lost. Luckily Russia now can do that in Ulyanovsk.

    Fantastic opportunity for Russia that it probably won't take because the bean-counters in the Kremlin only think short-term and look down at Central Asia; even despite orientating more attention to it in recent years and trying to expand the Eurasian Economic Union.

    And these anal-ysts who wrote the article with their faux-realism analysis and refusing to see the bigger picture are scarcely any better

    The fact is that Uzbekistan is by posing this question, offering a straight-up opportunity for Russia to consolidate it into its economy and political sphere of influence, which it has had little success with under Karimov throughout the 90s and 2000s. After becoming a hub for licensed Russian-aircraft production, Uzbekistan will no more return to the multi-vector crap; than Spain will opt out of the EU with France and Germany losing all the Airbus and related manufacturing it has because of it.

    There are 2 sides to the offer.

    The first is strategic
    . Uzbekistan is the most military powerful country in Central Asia, has the largest population by quite a margin which is growing by the day, and has preserved an independent foreign policy and neutrality more so than most other ex-Soviet states which either stuck to Russia or became bitches of Washington/Brussels. Tashkent has been a centre of industry since even the Russian Empire days and was a Bolshevik stronghold during the Civil War.
    Resource and territory-wise Uzbekistan isn't very rich and up to 40% of its territory is actually part of the Karakalpakistan republic which came close to declaring independence back in the 90s, but Tashkent basically tricked them and kept them in. But it's human potential is considerable, it's industries are still mostly around even if dilapidated, and there are still plenty of ex-Soviet minorities living there and making up a substantial part of its specialist and industrial class - Russians, Ukrainians, Tatars, Koreans, so on.

    Pulling Uzbekistan towards integration will serve to instantly check any Kazakhstan ambitions, where the svidomite opposition is gaining ground along with hateful Russophobia and plans to invite US military bases. I don't think Kazakhstan will remain stable over the next 5-10 years; whereas Uzbekistan is a far calmer country without any pan-Turk or svidomite retards present in an unreasonable quantity plotting to create problems.
    In this sense Tashkent is very much a prospective partner in the ex-Soviet space that neither demands to extract freebies from Russia like Lukashenko and the now ex-president of Moldova, Dodon - nor is it some current or prospective ethno-chauvinist state like the Ukraine, Baltics and possibly soon Kazakhstan.

    Secondly the economic aspect. Uzbekistan is actually on the path to becoming a Eurasian Economic Union member within short order, which will make this economic union essentially viable and an economic USSR-lite. This essentially means that for Russia, all these markets are open and it can export its products to them, while at the same time, the smaller producers in the ex-Soviet countries also have access to the Russian market without protectionist measures. The bigger deal for the ex-Soviet republics though, is that Russia can open up production there at lower-costs, and without any tariffs in the way. Work migrants will also be better protected and have access to more opportunities.
    So far then, just ordinary capitalism then, and the same deal as the EU, but also very much necessary, as Russian industry needs access to a larger market.

    But the more perspective stuff is really the revival of Soviet-era production chains and capabilities, and by so doing, create more competitive corporations that can compete in international markets.
    For Russian needs, the existing aircraft factories are indeed enough, and indeed the question of producing airlifters for the Russian military can only be settled on Russian territory.
    But the discussion is not about that. In the prospective future, there will be a need to expand the export potential of Russia's new lineup too. At present, the Russian capacities are enough for only a couple dozen aircraft a year; a slow pace for the military, and for its own airliners, and even though the pace is being ramped up, there will hardly be enough capacity to produce Il-476s, Il-214s, Il-114-300s, Il-112s, MS-21s and in the future Slons and so on - in any reasonable quantity for an export customer.
    The Tashkent plant can specialize for example in Il-112V and Il-114-300 production for the needs of Eurasian Economic Union and other export customers, both military and civil orders, and in the future for the Il-214 too; as these aircraft may well end up being quite popular for the needs of various regional countries militaries and civil airliners. Alongside with being a base for MS-21 parts and servicing for Central Asia.

    I don't buy the argument that production is so difficult to revive there or will require a huge amount of resources. Not to mention that Uzbekistan itself will be investing as well - the main thing from Russia that's needed are the actual designs, components/engines, specialists, new machinery and other forms of assistance. Il-76 production carried on until the early 2010s if memory serves and Il-114 production about as much. Il-76 capacity is likely not needed anymore, but the modernized Il-114 will still be very much in demand both in Uzbekistan itself and in other countries - only this time not with an American engine but a Russian one. The plant still has some activity, so clearly not all the personnel and machinery has been scattered or sold-off. A comparison with the former plant in Saratov is neither here nor there - that one was completely destroyed; there's just a small daughter company left with a hundred former employees or so that specializes in creating power-plants for old Yak-42 aircraft. The rest of the site has either been converted to shopping malls or some low-tech production of insulation and PVC pipes. The Samara plant is the only one left where production can be rejuvenated, but it's still in the midst of some legal dicking around.
    I thought most of the specialists and a good part of the equipment already left Tashkent for Ulyanovsk.

    As for as Saratov, yeah the factory there is lost. However the land plots are slowly coming back into russian federal property. In some of them they are also building schools, but the former Saratov aircraft plants had way more land plot than actually needed for a modern aircraft factory (including welfare facilities for the employees and much more). If there is the will a smaller modern aircraft plant can be rebuilt there.

    (The cherry in the cake would be to properly prosecute those responsible for the destruction of the plant, confiscate all the money and property they have, cancel any inheritance or gift that they gave in the past 20 years and send them to hard prison for at least 15 years.)

    If they plan to substitute American and European planes in russia and also to sell them abroad they will actually benefit from different production sites.


    This would not be against the "project" in Tashkent of course. I agree with you that this would be beneficial for both Russia and Uzbekistan, if done properly.
    flamming_python
    flamming_python

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    Post  flamming_python Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:23 am

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:https://aviation21.ru/v-uzbekistane-xotyat-vozrodit-tapoich-est-li-perspektivy-u-etix-planov/

    Uzbekistan wants to revive TAPOiCH. Are there any prospects for these plans?
    Published by 07.12.2020, 02:20 |  171
    On December 4, Minister of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation Denis Manturov made a working trip to Tashkent, where he met with President of Uzbekistan Shavkat Mirziyoyev and Prime Minister of Uzbekistan Abdulla Aripov.(...)

    A lot of wishful thinking from the Uzbeki side.

    The new president appears smarter than the previous one. Unfortunately for them, when Russia (about 10 years ago) asked them to have TAPO (the aircraft manufacturing plant in Tashkent, Uzbekistan) join UAC and participate to the russian aviation production plans they were not interested.
    At the time it may have made sense. Now, much less. The cost of reconverting the Tashkent mechanical plant, retraining personnel and acquiring modern equipment would be very high. And definitely Russia is not going to finance it. They still have Samara aviation plant almost unused, and if they have to rebuild an aircraft plant from nothing, it would be better for them to rebuild the one in Saratov.

    What can be done there would be a regional centre for maintenance of modern Russian planes (including MC-21).

    Maybe in the future, if they order some Il276 from Russia they could get to assemble some of them in Tashkent, of course with most of the parts coming from Russia.


    Note: they used to build the wing and center section of the
    An-124, but now of course all of those competencies are lost. Luckily Russia now can do that in Ulyanovsk.

    Fantastic opportunity for Russia that it probably won't take because the bean-counters in the Kremlin only think short-term and look down at Central Asia; even despite orientating more attention to it in recent years and trying to expand the Eurasian Economic Union.

    And these anal-ysts who wrote the article with their faux-realism analysis and refusing to see the bigger picture are scarcely any better

    The fact is that Uzbekistan is by posing this question, offering a straight-up opportunity for Russia to consolidate it into its economy and political sphere of influence, which it has had little success with under Karimov throughout the 90s and 2000s. After becoming a hub for licensed Russian-aircraft production, Uzbekistan will no more return to the multi-vector crap; than Spain will opt out of the EU with France and Germany losing all the Airbus and related manufacturing it has because of it.

    There are 2 sides to the offer.

    The first is strategic
    . Uzbekistan is the most military powerful country in Central Asia, has the largest population by quite a margin which is growing by the day, and has preserved an independent foreign policy and neutrality more so than most other ex-Soviet states which either stuck to Russia or became bitches of Washington/Brussels. Tashkent has been a centre of industry since even the Russian Empire days and was a Bolshevik stronghold during the Civil War.
    Resource and territory-wise Uzbekistan isn't very rich and up to 40% of its territory is actually part of the Karakalpakistan republic which came close to declaring independence back in the 90s, but Tashkent basically tricked them and kept them in. But it's human potential is considerable, it's industries are still mostly around even if dilapidated, and there are still plenty of ex-Soviet minorities living there and making up a substantial part of its specialist and industrial class - Russians, Ukrainians, Tatars, Koreans, so on.

    Pulling Uzbekistan towards integration will serve to instantly check any Kazakhstan ambitions, where the svidomite opposition is gaining ground along with hateful Russophobia and plans to invite US military bases. I don't think Kazakhstan will remain stable over the next 5-10 years; whereas Uzbekistan is a far calmer country without any pan-Turk or svidomite retards present in an unreasonable quantity plotting to create problems.
    In this sense Tashkent is very much a prospective partner in the ex-Soviet space that neither demands to extract freebies from Russia like Lukashenko and the now ex-president of Moldova, Dodon - nor is it some current or prospective ethno-chauvinist state like the Ukraine, Baltics and possibly soon Kazakhstan.

    Secondly the economic aspect. Uzbekistan is actually on the path to becoming a Eurasian Economic Union member within short order, which will make this economic union essentially viable and an economic USSR-lite. This essentially means that for Russia, all these markets are open and it can export its products to them, while at the same time, the smaller producers in the ex-Soviet countries also have access to the Russian market without protectionist measures. The bigger deal for the ex-Soviet republics though, is that Russia can open up production there at lower-costs, and without any tariffs in the way. Work migrants will also be better protected and have access to more opportunities.
    So far then, just ordinary capitalism then, and the same deal as the EU, but also very much necessary, as Russian industry needs access to a larger market.

    But the more perspective stuff is really the revival of Soviet-era production chains and capabilities, and by so doing, create more competitive corporations that can compete in international markets.
    For Russian needs, the existing aircraft factories are indeed enough, and indeed the question of producing airlifters for the Russian military can only be settled on Russian territory.
    But the discussion is not about that. In the prospective future, there will be a need to expand the export potential of Russia's new lineup too. At present, the Russian capacities are enough for only a couple dozen aircraft a year; a slow pace for the military, and for its own airliners, and even though the pace is being ramped up, there will hardly be enough capacity to produce Il-476s, Il-214s, Il-114-300s, Il-112s, MS-21s and in the future Slons and so on - in any reasonable quantity for an export customer.
    The Tashkent plant can specialize for example in Il-112V and Il-114-300 production for the needs of Eurasian Economic Union and other export customers, both military and civil orders, and in the future for the Il-214 too; as these aircraft may well end up being quite popular for the needs of various regional countries militaries and civil airliners. Alongside with being a base for MS-21 parts and servicing for Central Asia.

    I don't buy the argument that production is so difficult to revive there or will require a huge amount of resources. Not to mention that Uzbekistan itself will be investing as well - the main thing from Russia that's needed are the actual designs, components/engines, specialists, new machinery and other forms of assistance. Il-76 production carried on until the early 2010s if memory serves and Il-114 production about as much. Il-76 capacity is likely not needed anymore, but the modernized Il-114 will still be very much in demand both in Uzbekistan itself and in other countries - only this time not with an American engine but a Russian one. The plant still has some activity, so clearly not all the personnel and machinery has been scattered or sold-off. A comparison with the former plant in Saratov is neither here nor there - that one was completely destroyed; there's just a small daughter company left with a hundred former employees or so that specializes in creating power-plants for old Yak-42 aircraft. The rest of the site has either been converted to shopping malls or some low-tech production of insulation and PVC pipes. The Samara plant is the only one left where production can be rejuvenated, but it's still in the midst of some legal dicking around.
    I thought most of the specialists and a good part of the equipment already left Tashkent for Ulyanovsk.

    As for as Saratov, yeah the factory there is lost. However the land plots are slowly coming back into russian federal property.  In some of them they are also building schools, but the former Saratov aircraft plants had way more land plot than actually needed for a modern aircraft factory (including welfare facilities for the employees and much more).  If there is the will a smaller modern aircraft plant can be rebuilt there.

    (The cherry in the cake would be to properly prosecute those responsible for the destruction of the plant, confiscate all the money and property they have, cancel any inheritance or gift that they gave in the past 20 years and send them to hard prison for at least 15 years.)

    If they plan to substitute American and European planes in russia and also to sell them abroad they will actually benefit from different production sites.


    This would not be against the "project" in Tashkent of course. I agree with you that this would be beneficial for both Russia and Uzbekistan, if done properly.

    They wanted to build those Austrian Diamond planes on the basis of the former Saratov factory a few years back.
    Well the deal fell through, don't remember whether they decided on a different plane or those planes are being built in Yekaterinburg instead (which BTW in Soviet times had only an aircraft repair plant, but is now becoming an increasingly successful producer of foreign models of light aircraft and UAVs, and plans for Russian design production too).

    If Saratov gets something in the end, it will in all effect be a new factory, not the old one, of which little is left. But there's always hope for at least that, some sort of light aircraft production or something.

    Only in Samara and Tashkent are there real perspectives for a revival of civil aviation, and more so in Tashkent as it was always a massive producer.
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:34 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:[
    I thought most of the specialists and a good part of the equipment already left Tashkent for Ulyanovsk.

    As for as Saratov, yeah the factory there is lost. However the land plots are slowly coming back into russian federal property.  In some of them they are also building schools, but the former Saratov aircraft plants had way more land plot than actually needed for a modern aircraft factory (including welfare facilities for the employees and much more).  If there is the will a smaller modern aircraft plant can be rebuilt there.

    (The cherry in the cake would be to properly prosecute those responsible for the destruction of the plant, confiscate all the money and property they have, cancel any inheritance or gift that they gave in the past 20 years and send them to hard prison for at least 15 years.)

    If they plan to substitute American and European planes in russia and also to sell them abroad they will actually benefit from different production sites.


    This would not be against the "project" in Tashkent of course. I agree with you that this would be beneficial for both Russia and Uzbekistan, if done properly.

    They wanted to build those Austrian Diamond planes on the basis of the former Saratov factory a few years back.
    Well the deal fell through, don't remember whether they decided on a different plane or those planes are being built in Yekaterinburg instead (which BTW in Soviet times had only an aircraft repair plant, but is now becoming an increasingly successful producer of foreign models of light aircraft and UAVs, and plans for Russian design production too).

    If Saratov gets something in the end, it will in all effect be a new factory, not the old one, of which little is left. But there's always hope for at least that, some sort of light aircraft production or something.

    Only in Samara and Tashkent are there real perspectives for a revival of civil aviation, and more so in Tashkent as it was always a massive producer.

    Yeah,  i meant a brand new facility in Saratov.

    It could be also an opportunity to see a new plant there with all modern technologies. Saratov had an important history for the Russian Aeronautical industry, it would be a very good signal to do it. The old plant owned a lot of land plot and many of them were not used directly  for production (I believe in soviet time large firms used to have their own cinema, apartment complexes for the employees,  schools, etc etc).

    Now many of those are returning to state property. So even if some of those will be used for schools or for the needs of the city is not a problem.
    https://news.sarbc.ru/main/2020/12/21/255749.html

    I would however invite the orange mall to relocate and see if was possible to move also the pirro group factory (opened in 2014 in the former assembly shop of the Saratov Aviation Plant) which produce thermal insulating peer-plates. Maybe offering some land pat a proper price in another location.

    https://pirrogroup.ru/news/10-zapusk-proizvodstva-na-ploschadke-saratovskogo-aviacionnogo-zavoda.html

    Of course in case of creation of an aircraft plant it should be near the Saratov-Yuzhny experimental airfield,  which should be completely rebuilt.


    I  know about the ural civil aviation plant in Ekaterinenburg,  they are producing there the Let L-410 as well (and possibly also the aircraft derived from the Let L610 prototype  (high wing turboprop with 30-40 passengers).
    There is also the Baikal aircraft (slightly smaller successor of the An-2, with a single high wing). Since it will have the same engine (the VK-800 (and possibly will also share some other systems) as the russianized version of the Let L-410,  it could be reasonable to have it produced in Ekaterinenburg,  if they have capacity for all of them.

    Otherwise it was also mentioned the plant in Ulan Ude.

    Samara could also be a good place for the Let L610, since they recently used to build there the slightly larger An-140.

    Concerning the Tashkent plant, it was not involved in mass production of in recent years and they did not produce any aircraft in the last 8 years.

    TAPO started and became quickly successful and large because due to WW2 an existing factory and its entire staff were transported in December of the 1941 by a train convoy from the Moscow Region (Kimkhi) to Tashkent in Uzbekistan. Then after the war the Soviet Union continued to invest in it and produce aircrafts there.

    In 2012 actually they did almost the opposite, where production of the Il-76 was moved to Ulyanovsk (together with probably a lot of trained personnel and some equipment) and later the il114 production is being reorganised near Moscow.

    I doubt that inTashkent remain lot of available experts and trained personnel for airplane production since the plant activities have been completely reoriented in the meanwhile. I can imagine that capable aeronautical technicians, fitters and engineers would have been welcomed in Russian or foreign factories (even the Chineses  would have tried to get some of them).

    They would need to start slowly (but that is not a bad thing) , and they will not repeat anyway the volumes from soviet times (unless the Russian aerospace industry will be so successful that all of the Russian plants will be as well working at full capacity).
    Russia would benefit from an increased cooperation with TAPO, but shall not invest massively on a foreign plant, if this mean less money for domestic ones.

    It will be probably beneficial for Russia to help Uzbekistan with this project,  but this cannot mean to repeat the same mistakes made with the preferences given to Ukrainian industries in the recent past to the detriment of Russian ones.

    I hope that Uzbeki officials understand that and are open for a win win situation.


    A good starting step would be also to gradually phase out western planes from the flag carrier Uzbekistan Airways and start buying again Russian planes.

    They can begin with production of spare parts for russian planes (civil passenger planes and military transport planes).

    They could also order il112 and il276 to substitute soviet planes in their air force and the assembly of them can be also organized there (initially with most parts ready made from Russian production and later gradually increasing the local content)

    GarryB and kvs like this post

    kvs
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    Post  kvs Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:38 am

    Investing outside Russia in any sort of national priority project is not acceptable. The crime of destroying the manufacturing
    in Saratov should be rectified. They can still bring in locals as consultants to restart production. I know that they are
    retired but I also know that not all of them are dead or senile.

    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Wed Dec 30, 2020 11:16 am

    The main difference between the Tashkent plant and the Ukrainian ones is that the Tashkent one will be building Russian designs and with Russian engines. So whoever they will sell them to, UAC will still receive the profit or at least royalties, as will other Russian MIC enterprises.
    Also the fact that Uzbekistan isn't the Ukraine, it's a much more stable country which hadn't had any coups throughout its history of independence, or any retardation in general - other than an Islamist movement which the authorities dealt with. So in this respect it's a rather more perspective partner

    As for the Baikal aircraft, production is AFAIK being launched in Ulan-Ude; at least, this is where the prototype is being built.

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    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:26 pm

    kvs wrote:Investing outside Russia in any sort of national priority project is not acceptable.   The crime of destroying the manufacturing
    in Saratov should be rectified.   They can still bring in locals as consultants to restart production.   I know that they are
    retired but I also know that not all of them are dead or senile.


    This actually may present an opportunity where Russian aircraft can gain better market access. As well, Russia will be supplying most of the parts too. So if it's a limited line of production of aircraft, then why not?
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:52 am

    https://aviation21.ru/rossiya-budet-gotovit-dlya-uzbekistana-specialistov-v-oblasti-samolyotostroeniya/

    Russia will train specialists in the field of aircraft construction for Uzbekistan
    04/13/2021, 13:58  400
    Uzbekistan and Russia are discussing joint projects in the field of aircraft construction, and first of all, we are talking about the revival of the former Tashkent Aviation Production Association named after Chkalov, which in Soviet times produced the Il-76 aircraft, and then the Il-114-100.

    On April 10, General Director of Rostec State Corporation Sergey Chemezov, on the air of the Vesti on Saturday program with Sergei Brilev on the Russia 1 TV channel, said that the state corporation expects to cooperate with the Tashkent aircraft plant in the event of its restoration.

    This plant does not work today. I think that we will surely find some possible areas of cooperation, ”said Sergei Chemezov.

    On April 13, Minister of Industry and Trade Denis Manturov also said on the air of the Russia 1 TV channel that Russia is already preparing a special program for training students from Uzbekistan in the direction of aircraft construction - about 100 undergraduate students annually.

    In December 2020, during the visit of the head of the Ministry of Industry and Trade to Uzbekistan, President of Uzbekistan Shavkat Mirziyoyev announced his desire to revive TAPOiCH .

    “Today with our Russian partners we talked about the fate of TAPOiCH, about the future of TAPOiCH. I will gradually begin to reveal secrets, because I also have resentment inside me. There were only a few states in the world that produced aircraft. Unfortunately, we destroyed it with our own hands. But we are still working hard to restore it. We had aircraft manufacturers, TAPOiCH. All of them have remained in history, they are now gone. What engineers, what young people worked, ”the president complained to Denis Manturov.

    The Aviation of Russia website noted then that the main thing for the restoration of aircraft construction in Tashkent is the need to start training qualified workers, designers and engineers.



    Uzbekistan return to Russian sphere of influence - Page 3 Tapoich-li-2

    In the photo: employees of the Tashkent branch of Antonov Design Bureau (Kiev) on the territory of TAPOiCh, 1999 / https://naukatehnika.com/trudovoj-podvig-zabyitogo-kb.html

    The Uzbeki president says he has a some resentment inside him for the closure of TAPO... Well it was a decision of his predecessor... Russia almost begged Uzbekistan about a dozen years ago to continue production and wanted to include TAPO in the structure of the United aircraft corporation...

    At the end for Russia it has been better this way, since they got some of the specialists that were working in Tashkent and even brought home the production of il76 and il 114 in modernised form.

    Painful in the short term, but better in the long term.
    That helped securing a bright future for Aviastar aircraft factory in Ulianovsk

    And now they can probably organise a useful cooperation with Uzbekistan for training, production of parts, spare and possibly even small batch assembly of aircrafts for internal Uzbeki customers or even for foreign customers (under licence from Russia)... Of course it will not grow back to the size of what TAPO was in the Soviet Union, that was one of the largest aircraft factories of the Soviet Union...that ship sailed long ago...
    George1
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    Post  George1 Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:32 pm

    Working trip of the Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation to Uzbekistan

    Russian Defense Minister General of the Army Sergei Shoigu said that the defense departments of Russia and Uzbekistan have prepared a strategic partnership program in the military field for 2021-2025 ➡ https://s.mil.ru/2QGzuA1

    Strengthening the combat potential of the Armed Forces of Uzbekistan is a priority area of ​​military cooperation between Moscow and Tashkent, General of the Army Sergei Shoigu said ➡ http://s.mil.ru/3gJW1Xn

    The Minister of Defense of Uzbekistan Bakhodir Kurbanov at the talks with the Minister of Defense of Russia Sergei Shoigu said that the republic is interested in expanding cooperation with Russia in the field of ensuring regional security



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