Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+32
Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E
The-thing-next-door
Robert.V
Scorpius
limb
MMBR
Krepost
lyle6
ALAMO
lancelot
franco
Backman
walle83
George1
flamming_python
Rodion_Romanovic
PapaDragon
0nillie0
Hole
Isos
Walther von Oldenburg
miketheterrible
magnumcromagnon
collegeboy16
a89
Cyberspec
Pugnax
TR1
Zivo
GarryB
runaway
KomissarBojanchev
36 posters

    T-62s in Russian Army

    lyle6
    lyle6


    Posts : 1422
    Points : 1418
    Join date : 2020-09-14
    Location : Philippines

    T-62s in Russian Army - Page 9 Empty Re: T-62s in Russian Army

    Post  lyle6 Sun Oct 30, 2022 12:42 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    RPG-30 has already proved it is not.
    Afghanit is supposed to be quick enough to intercept hypersonic subcaliber shots within average engagement distances of just below 1 km.
    Going by brute force alone it should have plenty of time to engage both decoy and main rocket of the RPG-30.

    GarryB and Hole like this post

    Sujoy
    Sujoy


    Posts : 2036
    Points : 2198
    Join date : 2012-04-02
    Location : India || भारत

    T-62s in Russian Army - Page 9 Empty Re: T-62s in Russian Army

    Post  Sujoy Sun Oct 30, 2022 6:08 pm

    lyle6 wrote:Afghanit is supposed to be quick enough to intercept hypersonic subcaliber shots within average engagement distances of just below 1 km.
    Going by brute force alone it should have plenty of time to engage both decoy and main rocket of the RPG-30.
    How will Afghanit shut their protective shields when the APS launches a munition? Because if it can't the fragments will wash over the system, destroying the APS completely.
    avatar
    ALAMO


    Posts : 3475
    Points : 3477
    Join date : 2014-11-25

    T-62s in Russian Army - Page 9 Empty Re: T-62s in Russian Army

    Post  ALAMO Sun Oct 30, 2022 6:12 pm

    Sujoy wrote:
    lyle6 wrote:Afghanit is supposed to be quick enough to intercept hypersonic subcaliber shots within average engagement distances of just below 1 km.
    Going by brute force alone it should have plenty of time to engage both decoy and main rocket of the RPG-30.
    How will Afghanit shut their protective shields when the APS launches a munition? Because if it can't the fragments will wash over the system, destroying the APS completely.

    WUT?? scratch
    flamming_python
    flamming_python


    Posts : 7798
    Points : 7874
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    T-62s in Russian Army - Page 9 Empty Re: T-62s in Russian Army

    Post  flamming_python Sun Oct 30, 2022 11:28 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Which suggests new APS systems are immensely valuable, especially if their components can be duplicated or protected.
    RPG-30 has already proved it is not.

    Where and against whom has it been used?
    lyle6
    lyle6


    Posts : 1422
    Points : 1418
    Join date : 2020-09-14
    Location : Philippines

    T-62s in Russian Army - Page 9 Empty Re: T-62s in Russian Army

    Post  lyle6 Mon Oct 31, 2022 2:41 am

    Sujoy wrote:
    How will Afghanit shut their protective shields when the APS launches a munition? Because if it can't the fragments will wash over the system, destroying the APS completely.

    Afghanit uses rocket-propelled effectors so interception can take place at a considerable distance from the tank, sparing the vehicle from much of the resulting debris.

    If that isn't enough the high-speed AESA radars for the hard-kill are housed in fragmentation resistant container - the actual slot antennas are rather tiny targets anyhow:

    T-62s in Russian Army - Page 9 Perminov2021_t14_001

    GarryB, medo and Sujoy like this post

    jhelb
    jhelb


    Posts : 1049
    Points : 1156
    Join date : 2015-04-04
    Location : Previously: Belarus Currently: A Small Island No One Cares About

    T-62s in Russian Army - Page 9 Empty Re: T-62s in Russian Army

    Post  jhelb Mon Oct 31, 2022 6:46 am

    flamming_python wrote:Where and against whom has it been used?
    Being used against Ukros in Ukraine.

    Was used successfully against Israeli Merkava tanks in occupied Palestine.
    flamming_python
    flamming_python


    Posts : 7798
    Points : 7874
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    T-62s in Russian Army - Page 9 Empty Re: T-62s in Russian Army

    Post  flamming_python Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:05 am

    jhelb wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:Where and against whom has it been used?
    Being used against Ukros in Ukraine.

    Was used successfully against Israeli Merkava tanks in occupied Palestine.

    Any photos or written accounts of that?
    Sujoy
    Sujoy


    Posts : 2036
    Points : 2198
    Join date : 2012-04-02
    Location : India || भारत

    T-62s in Russian Army - Page 9 Empty Re: T-62s in Russian Army

    Post  Sujoy Mon Oct 31, 2022 9:31 am

    lyle6 wrote:Probably one of the reasons why everyone is suddenly packing programmable fragmentation shells.
    Can you please share an example or two of these shells? Thanks.
    lyle6
    lyle6


    Posts : 1422
    Points : 1418
    Join date : 2020-09-14
    Location : Philippines

    T-62s in Russian Army - Page 9 Empty Re: T-62s in Russian Army

    Post  lyle6 Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:44 am

    Sujoy wrote:
    Can you please share an example or two of these shells? Thanks.

    3VOF128 Telnik
    T-62s in Russian Army - Page 9 1597398933_09-oskolochno-puchkovyj-snaryad-telnik-3vof128
    DM-11
    T-62s in Russian Army - Page 9 DuSIOk-V4AA_SQR?format=jpg&name=medium
    XM1147 AMP
    T-62s in Russian Army - Page 9 DuSIOykVAAATWY3?format=jpg&name=medium

    GarryB, medo and Sujoy like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 34889
    Points : 35407
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    T-62s in Russian Army - Page 9 Empty Re: T-62s in Russian Army

    Post  GarryB Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:58 am

    RPG-30 has already proved it is not.

    Has it?

    I mean I understand the concept... a small high velocity rocket flying on the same trajectory... the smaller faster rocket sets off the APS defensive munition and the actual penetrator following it arrives before the system can reset ready to engage a second target.

    But that kinda assumes the system is not able to handle more than one threat at a time... true for known western APS systems but I would think as the Russians developed the RPG-30 to defeat APS systems they would also design their APS systems to deal with such threats too.

    How will Afghanit shut their protective shields when the APS launches a munition? Because if it can't the fragments will wash over the system, destroying the APS completely.

    ARENA has a reaction time of 0.07 seconds and a target detection range of 50m.

    An anti tank guided rocket or unguided rocket is going to be moving at 300-500 m/s approximately, so the first rocket is detected at 50m and lets say it is moving at 500m/s in the 0.07 seconds the system needs to do its calculations and launch its interception munition at 500m/s the rocket target will move about 35 metres, but the following actual penetrator has to then close the 50m detection range distance before the next 0.07 second cycle can be completed... if the main rocket is moving at the same speed it should be able to travel 70m, which suggests the second rocket should hit the target before it resets... but there is a core issue... even the old system could detect the first rocket is smaller than the second rocket so it might just ignore the first threat and engage the second one.

    More importantly the Afghanit can't possibly operate that slow with an APFSDS round because detection at 50m and 0.07 second preparation time would mean it detects an APFSDS round at 50m and then 0,.07 second later that incoming penetrator has move over 100 metres... 126 metres in fact... so either the preparation time is shorter, or the detection range is bigger or most likely both... which means it is able to see further.

    The RPG-30 has a problem... the rockets need to be far enough apart not to be intercepted by the same munition, but close enough together that the system does not have time to recognise a second threat and with a shorter reaction time and greater detection range I think that would be a near impossible task.

    More importantly the newer systems should have much better optical and radar sensors which offers much better target information out to greater distances and with a lot better precision making the potential for multi threat engagement a real possibility...

    Being used against Ukros in Ukraine.

    Which Orc vehicles had operational APS systems?

    Can you please share an example or two of these shells? Thanks.

    The technology is not sophisticated... they had directed fragmentation warheads on their surface to air missiles for more than 50 years.... it is just a question of having multiple fuses located in the HE warhead with an outer shell of pre fragmented material... in the case of SAMs it determines the angular direction to the target in the last milisecond and detonates the fuse opposite from the target... the explosion and majority of the fragments are then directed at the place where the target is going to be.

    No different for this APS system... the trajectory of the munition is known and relatively predictable and fixed and the trajectory of the incoming threat is calculated and an intercept course is determined and the launch and explosive direction of the warhead can be calculated incredibly quickly... and whoosh... boom.

    Sujoy and TMA1 like this post


    Sponsored content


    T-62s in Russian Army - Page 9 Empty Re: T-62s in Russian Army

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:34 am