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    U.S Military encirclement of China

    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS on Sat Sep 05, 2020 2:10 pm

    GarryB wrote:I mean imagine a float plane model of the new upgraded An-2 with fuselage mounted sideways looking antenna arrays... the stall speed of the plane is about 40km/h so it wouldn't even need to be a float plane.... sitting on the deck with the ship running at 20 knots and it would probably take off on its own... it wont be able to fly at enormous altitudes but it could be made to cruise for very long periods.

    True, there is some crazy STOL technology and with new distributed electric motors blowing the wings it is even crazier...

    Personally I still think the best solution for AWACS is an airship...

    I remember discussing this with you as a pure speculation, since then I have learned that in fact there have been and there are a lot of instances where this has been evaluated and done.

    Even if the US got everything it wanted it would still likely say the new Russian weapons developed since they withdrew from the ABM treaty are unacceptable too... like the un-limited range nuke cruise missile and Poseidon etc etc etc.

    Yes, I was just kidding. Of course, the treaty is dead and they are just looking for an excuse to present themselves as the victims of Russian aggressiveness, but they keep the talks on as part of the farce and maybe in the hope that Russia will finally opt for unilateral disarmament, as a habit from a better past where soviet leaders secretly admiring the West would save the day for them. They must be in shock that today's Russians refuse to admit the intrinsic superiority of the Western Übermenschen...

    kvs wrote:
    China needs to argue that its current missile stocks are absurdly low given its world power status. If the yanquis think that tearing up START will given them coercion on China, then they
    are really fucked in the head. China does not need to make treaties with Uncle Swine-shit.

    If they think they can produce more nukes than the nuclear technology of Russia + economic might of China combined then they are indeed mental. It is them that don't have enough plutonium pits and who lag badly behind Russia in nuclear technology.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Sep 05, 2020 6:09 pm

    Like France & UK that refused to be included in the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty, China wants to maintain her independence by not joining any trilateral treaty. 
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermediate-Range_Nuclear_Forces_Treaty


    She can & may sign bilateral treaties with India, Japan, SK, USA & Russia covering certain BMs, etc. in the future, but only after she feels secure enough to negotiate from a position of strength. 
    At this point in time, she is still recovering from the "century of humiliation" & her geopolitical/strategic situation isn't yet secure enough.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 06, 2020 6:45 am

    If they think they can produce more nukes than the nuclear technology of Russia + economic might of China combined then they are indeed mental. It is them that don't have enough plutonium pits and who lag badly behind Russia in nuclear technology.

    Which means any solution they do come up with will have to be very expensive... good.

    Like France & UK that refused to be included in the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty, China wants to maintain her independence by not joining any trilateral treaty.

    The Soviets had to sign something because US missiles in Europe were just too close and therefore very destabilising.

    In a sense it was good sense for the Soviets because being able to base their missiles in Europe meant for the US their smaller intermediate range ballistic and cruise missiles were effectively small light and cheap strategic missiles because of where they were placed... the short warning time was an added bonus... though the risk of the Soviets accidentally launching a full counter strike because they mistook a missile launch for a real attack was not ideal...

    For the Soviets it meant all the targets they wanted to hit in Europe and Asia and the Middle East would now need to be covered by much bigger much heavier ICBM missiles... so it did make WWIII more expensive for both sides.

    Now however, they can make all sorts of scramjet powered missiles much cheaper than any rocket and faster than most solid rockets of that size for the job...

    (Note the 6 ton Kh-32 moves at about mach 4.5-5 in level flight at 40km altitude... the Zircon is probably going to be one third that weight, but with greater range and double the speed...)

    For China it does not make sense to limit its nuclear weapons capacity because that would require it to reveal to the US its current inventory of nuclear weapons and weapon making plants from which the US will be able to work out future production potential and all sorts of other details they will want solid information on before they attack and invade...

    pale

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    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:21 pm

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2Z0jK4W8M4

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oylo3Jsq-p4


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:33 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add link)
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:51 pm

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    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:34 pm

    If they only flew to within 90km of China then they were flying in international airspace... why did they think they needed to pretend to be anyone else?

    BTW KAL007 was shot down after flying over several very sensitive Soviet military areas... I wonder if they still would have shot it down if the US observed international law like other countries do and did not have its spy planes pretend to be civilian airliners?
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:10 pm

    If they only flew to within 90km of China then they were flying in international airspace... why did they think they needed to pretend to be anyone else?
    in order not to spook Chinese into changing their routines.
    The US is strengthening ties with Taiwan, much to the chagrin of mainland China which sees the island nation as part of its territory. The Trump administration is expected to approve another major weapons sale to Taiwan valued at $600 million. The sale will reportedly include shipments of MQ-9B Reaper drones and anti-ship missiles. Washington has long provided arms to the island, but those sales have increased under the Trump administration. A high-profile United States official is also in Taiwan for the weekend. The presence of Keith Krach, the Under Secretary of State for Economic Growth, Energy, and the Environment, marks the second major US visit in two months.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:59 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add a quote)
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    Post  kvs on Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:43 pm

    GarryB wrote:If they only flew to within 90km of China then they were flying in international airspace... why did they think they needed to pretend to be anyone else?

    BTW KAL007 was shot down after flying over several very sensitive Soviet military areas... I wonder if they still would have shot it down if the US observed international law like other countries do and did not have its spy planes pretend to be civilian airliners?

    KAL007 was predated by another Korean passenger jet flying over USSR territory that was forced to land. One never hears about that case.

    The KAL007 incident itself was a frame job. There was an actual US spy plane doing a complex flight pattern to con Russian air defenses into
    thinking it was KAL007. The ploy worked and the Soviet pilot who shot down KAL007 though he was shooting down the US spy plane.
    The fact that this was a frame job is evidenced by the total radio silence of KAL007 even as it was overflying Soviet territory. This was not
    some minor overflight violation, it was a persistent violation covering around 1000 km and over critical locations as you note.

    Anyone claiming that the KAL007 shootdown was a crime by the USSR is full of shit. It was a joint crime by South Korea and the USA. The
    former for letting one of its civilian jets with passengers be put at risk for a US psyop and the latter for staging the psyop. This isn't some
    moronic hockey game where you get a penalty for retaliating. The USSR was fully within its rights to bring down KAL007.

    By contrast, the US shootdown of the Iranian flight 655 was a total crime. It was committed by a US warship violating Iranian waters
    and engaged in an act of military aggression against Iran. Iran did not stage any psyop to fool the yanqui butchers that flight 655 was
    a military aircraft. And the yanquis awarded the butchers who shot down flight 655 with medals.

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    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:59 pm

    South Korean airlines liked to hire ex military pilots and often they would cut into Soviet airspace to save time and fuel.

    When challanged by Soviet air defence these ex military pilots would often try to run or pretend they were not contacted by Soviet air defence.

    Brutal way to risk human lives that the west pretends to care about.

    I remember the KAL007 shoot down... even if you believe the western story that the Korean plane accidentally strayed deep into Soviet airspace the west had spy planes in the air at the time and were tracking it from various radar stations in Japan and South Korea, but also military platforms were listening in for all that valuable radio traffic and radar signals, detected by ship and sub and air and even satellite platforms... but strangely none of those platforms felt the need to warn the aircraft it was an enormous distance off course and was at risk of being intercepted... they just didn't care.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:02 pm

    It was a planned operation from te start, & the plane departure from Anchorage was delayed by ~40 min. to synchronize it with spy sats. Read KAL007 shoot down.
    The China Conundrum: Deterrence as Dominance
    China has also suffered a setback when, in the first week of September, the Thais made it clear that they are not interested in pursuing a Chinese pitched plan to build a canal across the Isthmus of Kra in Thailand, which is the narrowest part of the Malay Peninsula.That canal would have made it possible for Chinese vessels to bypass the Strait of Malacca, but the Thais did not want a foreign power controlling and running such a strategic facility that would conceivably physically divide the Muslim-dominated south from the rest of the country.
    https://asiatimes.com/2020/09/laos-the-latest-china-debt-trap-victim/?mc_cid=deda5328c1&mc_eid=5455568640






    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:52 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : add link)
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:30 am

    On the canal across the Isthmus of Kra , if others invest in it, China won't be able to control it, & thailand may be pressured to close it to PLAN/Chinse merchant ships. Since, occupying Indochina isn't worth it, more roads to & ports in Myanmar will need to be built to bypass that choke point. 


    https://asiatimes.com/2020/09/the-moral-case-for-china-to-fight-a-war/?mc_cid=ef825d979b&mc_eid=5455568640

    https://asiatimes.com/2020/09/china-indonesia-sea-dispute-hot-and-getting-hotter/?mc_cid=c17b444b6c&mc_eid=5455568640

    Morrison digging a grave for Australia

    https://asiatimes.com/2020/09/the-united-states-miscalculation-in-south-asia/?mc_cid=497776b3be&mc_eid=5455568640


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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Oct 02, 2020 5:44 pm

    As I was saying: 
    India to lose more than it gains from the Quad
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 03, 2020 6:02 am

    in order not to spook Chinese into changing their routines.

    The whole point of flying an aircraft full of electronics and directing all your land and space based instruments on the target country is to listen for radio communication and radar frequencies and locations and track enemy aircraft and SAM site locations etc etc... to time how long it takes for them to get planes to you, to work out the shape and extent of their radar coverage... how low can you fly, how high...

    If they look like a civilian aircraft then they might send one plane to get it to correct its course and remain in international airspace.

    With military targets it would be more aircraft with a lot more tracking and more realistic for the attacker to measure the response for their planning of future attacks...

    With the Soviets they used to take ex bomber aircraft and fill them full of electronics and flying the near the border with the SU to get responses. Well pretty soon the Soviets realised what they were doing and stopped doing more than the bare minimum, so the americans started flying closer and closer to Soviet airspace and would occasionally fly into it where it bulged out or clipped a corner, but eventually even that stopped working so they flew directly at the border like they were going in and then turn away at the last second... and when that stopped working they didn't turn away...

    I seem to remember they lost about 140 odd men in hundreds of separate incidents doing this sort of shit...
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:00 am

    Since the Chinese BRI goes via Kazakhstan, with branches in Azerbaijan & Ukraine, & RF, destabilizing C. Asia & all of those is the way to derail it. Nazarbayev conducted power transfer to prevent turmoil like in Kirgizia, Armenia, Ukraine & Belarus.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnoN8_iO4Jg


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    Post  Aristide on Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:24 pm

    China is a plague in the pacific region. Like locusts tehy destroy where they go. A big argument for New Caledonai to stay with France, was the fact that China would destroy the island wizhout french protection.

    At the moment french navy and coastguard hunts chinese vessels out of new caledonian and french polynesian waters.

    We build a strong alliance with our australian partners and also in the UK and sucesfully block further chinese provocations.

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    Post  Isos on Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:45 pm

    Australia doesn't give a fuck about France. They are nothing without Chinese money and they already have US (5 eyes group) as a protection.

    China is interested by its new silk roads toward EU. South east pacific is of no interest for them. They are Australia's biggest client.

    UK is a dead country with no weight. 51st US state at best. It's military is part of US military.

    New Caledonia has nothing China would fight for. Even if they take it France/Australia/UK have no chance to win against China without US.
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    Post  Aristide on Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:02 pm

    Isos wrote:Australia doesn't give a fuck about France. They are nothing without Chinese money and they already have US (5 eyes group) as a protection.

    China is interested by its new silk roads toward EU. South east pacific is of no interest for them. They are Australia's biggest client.

    UK is a dead country with no weight. 51st US state at best. It's military is part of US military.

    New Caledonia has nothing China would fight for. Even if they take it France/Australia/UK have no chance to win against China without US.

    The ching chongs react quite allergic to Plutonium. France happens to be a nuclear power, which keeps the ching chongs away.

    New Caledonia has the largest nickel and cobalt reserves in the world. Its a gigantic island, the size of a small continent with huge forests and rich fishing grounds.

    China has no respect for nature and would destroy evrything there. Australia seeks more and more distance to China, which is a positive move.

    France, Australia and India forged an alliance to counter chinese agressions in the region. Japan also joined.

    https://www.fr24news.com/a/2020/09/france-joins-india-and-australia-in-the-indo-pacific-amid-growing-chinese-belligerence.html



    In Europe China also gets culled. Chinese companies are banned from participating in network construction.

    Since the Lega Nord was kicked out of government in Italy, Rome too joined an anti chinese rhetoric.

    Its high time China is culled back, the China-Virus is a good reason as well.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:11 am

    What happens when India improves her relations with China- to whom the French will peddle their weapons? Australia is sitting on 2 chairs & soon will need to chose on which 1 it will settle down.
    France would benefit more by joining the BRI rather than sticking with Anglo-Saxons & their "5 eyes".
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    Post  Aristide on Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:10 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:What happens when India improves her relations with China- to whom the French will peddle their weapons? Australia is sitting on 2 chairs & soon will need to chose on which 1 it will settle down.
    France would benefit more by joining the BRI rather than sticking with Anglo-Saxons & their "5 eyes".

    Brazil...3rd world shithole
    Russia....poor population, underdeveloped and undemocratic
    India... 3rd world, massive poverty

    France...industrialized, western european high developed

    With all due respect but you know...
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:20 am

    France...industrialized, western european high developed
    but how long will she stay that way? can she lift proporcional # of people out of poverty as China done in the same time period? 
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    Post  Aristide on Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:24 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    France...industrialized, western european high developed
    but how long will she stay that way? can she lift proporcional # of people out of poverty as China done in the same time period? 

    GDP per head of France: 41.761 $ one of highest in the world

    GDP per head of China: 10.726

    The average french earns 4 times as much as the average ching chong
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:47 am

    That's the current statics- there's no telling it will be so in 5 years. China's economy is already 2nd to the US'. France is the biggest continental nation in W. Europe, while China is in E. Asia. Yet France is under US control while China isn't. France got rich from her colonies & possessions while China is getting rich by developing her own local economy, transportation & trade. 
    And now she's getting ready for war over Taiwan. The RN will deploy her CV near China soon; will France follow suit with her CVN?
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:19 pm

    China is a plague in the pacific region. Like locusts tehy destroy where they go. A big argument for New Caledonai to stay with France, was the fact that China would destroy the island wizhout french protection.

    For the last 300 years white Europeans were the plague of the rest of the world... like locusts they destroy where they go. There are plenty of Pacific Islands without the protection of a nuclear power like France, yet they seem perfectly safe and not being destroyed at all except for the issue of rising sea water and obesity and diabetes...

    Australia doesn't give a fuck about France.

    Certainly don't see them as allies...

    They are Australia's biggest client.

    The Aussie mining industry is dependent on China as a client... yet the stupid Australian government still sees its role as bitching to China about Human rights issues in China... perhaps China should start asking Australia every time they meet about conditions on the islands they banish new migrants to Australia, or Aussie treatment of their Indigenous people... like the stolen generation where aboriginal women had their children stolen at birth and the child was brought up in a white Australian family... these are the people who think they can tell China right from wrong...

    UK is a dead country with no weight. 51st US state at best.

    If it is lucky. Time is ticking on London being an economic trade centre... they are going to have to reinvent themselves... it is going to be interesting... with the pro minority culture and rejecting all that wonderful British humour that made them attractive...

    The ching chongs react quite allergic to Plutonium.

    They haven't acquired a taste for Frogs legs, but I am sure with time they might take an interest... they don't have much of a nuclear arsenal but I suspect that will change with the US trying to intimidate them... that is the normal result of that sort of pressure...

    France happens to be a nuclear power, which keeps the ching chongs away.

    China is also a nuclear power and are essentially currently the wests production hub. Now that of course is changing with the actions of the US, but such production capacity is not going to go away.... what they do with it will be interesting.

    China has no respect for nature and would destroy evrything there.

    France tested about 170 nuclear weapons in the Pacific... what a bunch of nature lovers...

    Australia seeks more and more distance to China, which is a positive move.

    Australia seeks to criticise China every chance they get, but then that is a western thing isn't it... all trading partners must be assimilated.

    France, Australia and India forged an alliance to counter chinese agressions in the region. Japan also joined.

    Loser little countries always band together to be manipulated by the big powerful ones again... funny you mention France and Australia and India and even Japan, but you don't mention the puppet master by name that made you all get together to counter Chinese "aggressions"... hint USA... and those aggressions are actually Chinese whispers... another colonial western creation... a country becoming aggressive means starting to act in its own interests and not in ours.

    In Europe China also gets culled. Chinese companies are banned from participating in network construction.

    Since the Lega Nord was kicked out of government in Italy, Rome too joined an anti chinese rhetoric.

    Its high time China is culled back, the China-Virus is a good reason as well.

    Yes, Dr Frankenstein... tell the monster you created it is an abomination and then claim innocence when it gets angry and strangles you and then goes rampaging through the village... except this monster is everything you tell yourself you are... civilised and much less colonial and controlling than you are...

    France would benefit more by joining the BRI rather than sticking with Anglo-Saxons & their "5 eyes".

    Shut the hell up... of course France would benefit from joining a group that includes a large portion of the human population in just the I and the C of it, but what the hell does BRICS get out of letting those assholes join? Controlling colonial bunch of asswipes... and I mean this in the nicest way Tsavo, but no.

    Not even if they wanted in....

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    Post  Aristide on Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:17 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:That's the current statics- there's no telling it will be so in 5 years. China's economy is already 2nd to the US'. France is the biggest continental nation in W. Europe, while China is in E. Asia. Yet France is under US control while China isn't. France got rich from her colonies & possessions while China is getting rich by developing her own local economy, transportation & trade. 
    And now she's getting ready for war over Taiwan. The RN will deploy her CV near China soon; will France follow suit with her CVN?

    Yes we are ready. Taiwan is a independend nation and Ching Chong will do nothing to change that.

    France was already rich long before colonialism. You dont conquer the world when you dont have the scoruces for that.

    France is not under US control.

    China gets rich by slaves, destroying nature in unimagimable scales.
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    Post  Aristide on Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:21 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    China is a plague in the pacific region. Like locusts tehy destroy where they go. A big argument for New Caledonai to stay with France, was the fact that China would destroy the island wizhout french protection.

    For the last 300 years white Europeans were the plague of the rest of the world... like locusts they destroy where they go. There are plenty of Pacific Islands without the protection of a nuclear power like France, yet they seem perfectly safe and not being destroyed at all except for the issue of rising sea water and obesity and diabetes...

    Australia doesn't give a fuck about France.

    Certainly don't see them as allies...

    They are Australia's biggest client.

    The Aussie mining industry is dependent on China as a client... yet the stupid Australian government still sees its role as bitching to China about Human rights issues in China... perhaps China should start asking Australia every time they meet about conditions on the islands they banish new migrants to Australia, or Aussie treatment of their Indigenous people... like the stolen generation where aboriginal women had their children stolen at birth and the child was brought up in a white Australian family... these are the people who think they can tell China right from wrong...

    UK is a dead country with no weight. 51st US state at best.

    If it is lucky. Time is ticking on London being an economic trade centre... they are going to have to reinvent themselves... it is going to be interesting... with the pro minority culture and rejecting all that wonderful British humour that made them attractive...

    The ching chongs react quite allergic to Plutonium.

    They haven't acquired a taste for Frogs legs, but I am sure with time they might take an interest... they don't have much of a nuclear arsenal but I suspect that will change with the US trying to intimidate them... that is the normal result of that sort of pressure...

    France happens to be a nuclear power, which keeps the ching chongs away.

    China is also a nuclear power and are essentially currently the wests production hub. Now that of course is changing with the actions of the US, but such production capacity is not going to go away.... what they do with it will be interesting.

    China has no respect for nature and would destroy evrything there.

    France tested about 170 nuclear weapons in the Pacific... what a bunch of nature lovers...

    Australia seeks more and more distance to China, which is a positive move.

    Australia seeks to criticise China every chance they get, but then that is a western thing isn't it... all trading partners must be assimilated.

    France, Australia and India forged an alliance to counter chinese agressions in the region. Japan also joined.

    Loser little countries always band together to be manipulated by the big powerful ones again... funny you mention France and Australia and India and even Japan, but you don't mention the puppet master by name that made you all get together to counter Chinese "aggressions"... hint USA... and those aggressions are actually Chinese whispers... another colonial western creation... a country becoming aggressive means starting to act in its own interests and not in ours.

    In Europe China also gets culled. Chinese companies are banned from participating in network construction.

    Since the Lega Nord was kicked out of government in Italy, Rome too joined an anti chinese rhetoric.

    Its high time China is culled back, the China-Virus is a good reason as well.

    Yes, Dr Frankenstein... tell the monster you created it is an abomination and then claim innocence when it gets angry and strangles you and then goes rampaging through the village... except this monster is everything you tell yourself you are... civilised and much less colonial and controlling than you are...

    France would benefit more by joining the BRI rather than sticking with Anglo-Saxons & their "5 eyes".

    Shut the hell up... of course France would benefit from joining a group that includes a large portion of the human population in just the I and the C of it, but what the hell does BRICS get out of letting those assholes join? Controlling colonial bunch of asswipes... and I mean this in the nicest way Tsavo, but no.

    Not even if they wanted in....

    France joining BRI would be similar to Sophia Loren joining some dirty plebs at a garage party.

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