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    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:40 pm

    Isos wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Pretty sure those orders are for India.

    The 11356 is vastly inferior to the 22350, it makes no sense to order these when you have a better option already available.

    unless they think they can modify the 22350 for the 11356, which sure they could by why bother.

    India has ordered a licence to build them at home.

    Grigorovitch my be inferior to Gorshkov but it is still a good ship. Better than all the other ships they have in service if we take out Gorshkov, kirov and Slava.

    Sure if you wanna set the bar that low, its a subpar ship by today's standards no way around that

    What standards exactly ?

    Nato ships come with 16 AD missiles and 8 subsonic anti ship missiles.

    This ship comes with 24 AD missiles and 8 multipurpose missiles.

    It's a new and well designed ship. Yes Gorshkov is better but this one is ready, modern that would replace one of the old ships and increase number of modern ships that use UKSK.

    There are only positive points to finish it.

    They can even redisign it to replace shtill with redut, replace the radars and add another UKSK instead of the rbu and paket NK instead of 533mm torpedo.

    If they fully redesign it they can spend a considerable amount of time and money to obtain something similar to the baseline Gorshkov class (that than will need to be properly tested).... what is the purpose in that?

    It would stop having the cost advantage at that point... and the engines are still not there.

    Again let's repeat it; Russia is not going to produce engines for this class and it is not going to modify the design to adapt it to a different powerplant.

    Anyway 11356 is not a fully new ship: it is the third and latest modernisation of the soviet Krivak class frigate.

    It is a relatively cheap frigate with decent capabilities (probably on par with the chinese Type 054A or a bit better. If it loses its "cheapness" it will not be interesting anymore for Russia.   I know that only a few countries have more advanced frigates than grigorovich class (and noone has a better frigate than Gorshov class) but not many countries are allowed to buy such equipment from Russia.

    In addition, among these countries which regularly buy from Russia, probably only India can excercize pressure on the Ukraine for the sale of the engines.
    And they already operate several other ships of the same class.
    Egypt or vietnam could have been interested in it as well, but since they do not operate other ships of this class, it would not be really worth for them (and for Russia it would not make sense to submit again to the blackmail of the ukraine).


    But I would not sell it with a discount, India needs it more than Russia.

    So for Russia it only makes sense to complete the last ship (and only that, it would be counterproductive to start building additional ships of this class) if a potential customer manage to obtain the engine from the Ukraine.

    As I wrote before, only if in the near future Nikolaev would pass into Novorossian hands (or directly into Russian hands) (and of course before the Ukrainians are able to destroy even Zorya Mashproektand its supply chain) it could make sense to propose again this class as relatively cheap export frigate. But not for Russia. Even in that case only the already partially built ship would be built for the Russian Navy (and if the Indians would make a good offer for that, not even that one should be completed for the Russian Navy).
    So if Zorya Mashproekt would per absurd be tomorrow in Russian hands, it would make sense to use the increased capacity (Zorya + Saturn for gas turbines (and Zorya + Zvezda for gearboxes)) to build more power plants for additional Gorshkov class ships, and produce the old generation of power plants only for repairs or for cheap export ships


    Anyway, this would not be the first time that Yantar shipyard had issues with incomplete old ship projects

    https://web.archive.org/web/20180412001146/https://news.mail.ru/economics/25479808/

    In 2016 the same Yantar shipyard scrapped two ships, the third Neustrashimyy-class frigate Tuman and the training ship borodino (that was previously conceived also as light frigate/patrol ship and was also proposed to foreign customers)

    the director of the Yantar shipyard announced the incomplete hull was to be scrapped as the high cost of completing the ship to an outdated design was considered inefficient and the space freed up by its disposal could be employed on more cost-effective projects.


    https://flotprom.ru/2016/%D0%AF%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%8C15/

    Note: I am not suggesting to scrap it, absolutely not.
    I just mean not to sell it at too cheap price to India

    For Novik and Neustrashimyy-class it was a different issue and they had much more outdated systems (even if both of them were originally thought as replacement of the Krivak class)
    But Russia can still wait a bit before taking a decision.

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    Post  GarryB Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:47 pm

    Based on information from wiki.... shaky I know... they have two Krivak IIIs operational with the Russian Coast Guard, and three Grigoriovich class ships in the Black Sea... and one incomplete.

    That is five ships, two of which entered service in the early 1980s.

    These new Grigorovich ships are rather good for the Black Sea Fleet, which really does not require super ships... their propulsion is all gas turbine... I wonder if the new PD engine range they are working on might be extended to include a marinised model for these ships too... for just one ship it would not be worth it, but for four ships and the potential to offer it to foreign users of this type of ship as a replacement for the Ukrainian engines might be worth the effort.

    It is not a bad ship and should be rather affordable and with brand new state of the art gas turbines the performance should be rather good.

    They were talking about the scalability of the PD series aircraft engines and also their application on land (in power stations) and at sea (marinised engines).
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:01 am

    They can take the engines from one of the two Neustrachimy and scrap it instead of the Grigorovitch. Grigorovitch is much better than those 2 failed ships.

    They can also take the kashtans and replace the ak-630.

    I wonder if they would fit.
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:26 am

    Isos wrote:Yeah the shipyard director has no idea what he is talking about. Hopefully they have memvers of this forum Rolling Eyes .

    India is not a scrap dealer ? It's not an old soviet ship but a fresh build frigate that India already operates. They could easily sell it to them. Just need to make a good offer reduce the price and sell them solething else with it for exemple another 6 mig-29UPG or some pantsir S1 at advantagous price.

    You are making a bunch of assumptions, your have some weird twisted love story going on with this class of ships.

    There is no DAM ENGINES, The shipyard director never said THEY HAD AN ENGINE.

    The shipyard DOESN'T PRODUCE ENGINES.

    RUSSIA DOESN'T PRODUCE THOSE ENGINES.

    Shipyards make ton of proposals, THEY WANT MONEY.

    So unless by some divine MIRACLE some engine appeared out of thin air, yes the director is talking up his ass

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:30 am

    If they proposed to finish it then they thought about engine issue. I never said they have the engines.

    They can buy chinese which have a similar frigate even if it would be weaker engine than ukrainian or german ones.

    This ship is good and worth having in service. What don't you understand.
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    Post  owais.usmani Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:05 pm

    Isos wrote:

    They can buy chinese which have a similar frigate even if it would be weaker engine than ukrainian or german ones.


    You kidding me right?

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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:19 pm

    Isos wrote:If they proposed to finish it then they thought about engine issue....

    Do directors of Russian shipyards strike you as type of people who think about these sorts of things?

    They spent 2 decades designing warships based on imported engines FFS...
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:50 pm

    owais.usmani wrote:
    Isos wrote:

    They can buy chinese which have a similar frigate even if it would be weaker engine than ukrainian or german ones.


    You kidding me right?

    The Chinese 054A has only diesel engines. It is practically unfeasible to fit those engines in a 11356 frigate
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:01 pm

    owais.usmani wrote:
    Isos wrote:

    They can buy chinese which have a similar frigate even if it would be weaker engine than ukrainian or german ones.


    You kidding me right?

    So according to you they should send such ship at garbage ?

    Do directors of Russian shipyards strike you as type of people who think about these sorts of things?

    They spent 2 decades designing warships based on imported engines FFS...

    Shipyard don't produce engines or design ships.

    You can't just decide on3 day to create engines for ships. That's expensive and hard to do. Ukraine was a good supplier for those 20 years. Germans were also there.

    Now the situation changed and they adapt.

    The Chinese 054A has only diesel engines. It is practically unfeasible to fit those engines in a 11356 frigate

    As long as the ship sail it will be ok.

    That's a very good ship that only need to be fitted with equipement. Scraping it means loosing a good asset.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:25 am

    Of course they adapt, they have new classes of frigates and corvettes that will do that job.

    And no 11356 cannot sail with the Chinese diesel engines. Diesel engines are way larger than gas turbine with similar power output.

    There is no way that they can fit such engines in an already build hull unless they disassemble the hull, cut it open and scrap a large part of the already existing structure (after extensive redesign and validation work from engineers that would be better employed in more useful activities).

    Not going into performance compromises and cost issues, it would probably take more time than building a 22350 hull from scratches.


    The only way for this ship to be completed is to get the engine from Zorya Mashproekt (one way or another). Until than, the hull can be conserved.

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    medo
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    Post  medo Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:59 am

    Saturn build and test both M70 and M90 engines. They independently overhaul and modernize the same engines on Neustrashimy Frigate. Saturn will build their own engines for Grigorovich frigates and maintaine them.

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    Post  limb Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:20 am

    Whats stopping rusdia from making a deal with India for India to buy some extra zorya mashproekt engines which it can then sell to Russia?
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    Post  Lurk83 Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:24 am

    limb wrote:Whats stopping rusdia from making a deal with India for India to buy some extra zorya mashproekt engines which it can then sell to Russia?

    For India that would probably mean the death of diplomatic and commercial relationship with Ukraine forever... Until such time as it returns to Russia's orbit, if that ever happens. It may also draw sanctions or at least strained ties from USA or EU. India wouldn't bring all that on them for Russia's sake. They won't even sign the deals they've been talking about for so long like ka226 and ak201

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    Post  GarryB Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:36 pm

    They have spent a lot of money and time developing state of the art civilian jet engines for their aircraft... PD-14 and PD-35 and it is scalable so they will have PD-xx where xx is a two digit number in terms of engine thrust that can be used for a variety of aircraft types from cargo and airliner to transport.

    My point is that they are using those gas turbine engines for land based power generation systems and also marine engines for all types of ships.

    The tech level is state of the art so the performance should be excellent... it would be expensive to make it for just one ship but the potential for it to go in all the ships they currently operate and also Indian ships and Chinese ships that use the same propulsion means they could make some sales and also dry up work for the Ukraine and German equivalents that let them down to create this situation in the first place.

    The ship itself is new... it is not state of the art and will not transform the Russian Navy but right now it is a new ship with relatively new systems and weapons and equipment and would be a useful addition and in fact if they can support the propulsion a few foreign countries might consider buying more of them too... there is plenty of room to tweak the design and improve certain aspects while keeping it affordable...

    Whats stopping rusdia from making a deal with India for India to buy some extra zorya mashproekt engines which it can then sell to Russia?

    Forget feeding that zombie, this is about adding to what Russia can offer to sell and support and operate itself, not a chance to pump fresh blood into that corpse... in fact if they get this right they can cut off the final sources of nourishment that the Ukraine has and really get them to flatline.

    If the positions were reversed they would happily be doing the same.

    Besides even if they succeeded they would be getting an ancient system that has not really been upgraded in decades.
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    Post  limb Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:02 pm

    Lurk83 wrote:
    limb wrote:Whats stopping rusdia from making a deal with India for India to buy some extra zorya mashproekt engines which it can then sell to Russia?

    For India that would probably mean the death of diplomatic and commercial relationship with Ukraine forever... Until such time as it returns to Russia's orbit, if that ever happens. It may also draw sanctions or at least strained ties from USA or EU. India wouldn't bring all that on them for Russia's sake. They won't even sign the deals they've been talking about for so long like ka226 and ak201
    Ok India is a bad example, but they could get some friendly middle eastern or south east asian country like Burma to buy them and resell them. Even if Ukraine would break off relations, these countries don't benefit from buying ukrainian crap which soon won't be in production anyway due to bankruptcy. Also why would India care about not being able to buy stuff from Ukraine? Regarding American sanctions, apart from India many possible customers russia could contact are already sanctioned by the US.
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    Post  medo Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:11 am

    Admiral Grigorovich class have COGAG propulsion and use both M90FR and M70FRU. M90FR is also used on Gorshkov class frigates and they delivered new engines for Admiral Golovko. M70FRU engines are also used on Zubr LCAC and first produced are delivered for Zubr ships. Saturn produce both engines and they will deliver needed engines for remaining Grigorovich class frigates. At the moment Zubr and Gorshkov were first on the list for deliveries.

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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:29 am

    Isos wrote:They can take the engines from one of the two Neustrachimy and scrap it instead of the Grigorovitch. Grigorovitch is much better than those 2 failed ships....

    I missed this on the first go but this idea is nonsense

    One of those ''failed'' ships has been on the job since the moment if was reintroduced and second one will be rejoining the fleet soon

    And you want to pull the engine from a perfectly functioning warship just to finish some stopgap boat which isn't even 30% done and is barely more than a rusty bathtub at this point?




    medo wrote:.... At the moment Zubr and Gorshkov were first on the list for deliveries.

    Do you have a source that they are ordering more Zubr's?







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    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:30 am

    limb wrote:Whats stopping rusdia from making a deal with India for India to buy some extra zorya mashproekt engines which it can then sell to Russia?

    Ukraine would likely sanction India and refuse to deliver parts etc, which would ground part of their navy.

    Ukraine has taken this into consideration

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    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:31 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Isos wrote:They can take the engines from one of the two Neustrachimy and scrap it instead of the Grigorovitch. Grigorovitch is much better than those 2 failed ships....

    I missed this on the first go but this idea is nonsense

    One of those ''failed'' ships has been on the job since the moment if was reintroduced and second one will be rejoining the fleet soon

    And you want to pull the engine from a perfectly functioning warship just to finish some stopgap boat which isn't even 30% done and is barely more than a rusty bathtub at this point?


    That's assuming their engines would even work for the ship.

    He really does have some weird obsession with this class.

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:49 am

    And you want to pull the engine from a perfectly functioning warship just to finish some stopgap boat which isn't even 30% done and is barely more than a rusty bathtub at this point?


    Grigorovitch is way better than Neustrachimy.

    That's a failed ship with no real capabilities. They had to upgrade it because they forget to put basic anti ship capabilities. Whike being designed as an anti sub ship its sonar is less advanced than Grigorovitch. No UKSK. No real air defence capability.

    If it is possible to use their engines I would take it anyday.

    They also have an old krivak 3 that could be canibalized, but it's too old.

    That's assuming their engines would even work for the ship.

    He really does have some weird obsession with this class.

    That's why I asked if the engines are compatible.

    It's common sense. Grigorovitch is a very good class and they have the chance to get one more that is almost finished. That would add a powerfull ship in your navy.

    All of their fleets need new ships. Everything they can add is welcome.

    I don't understand why you don't want them to get it.

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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:57 am

    Isos wrote:
    And you want to pull the engine from a perfectly functioning warship just to finish some stopgap boat which isn't even 30% done and is barely more than a rusty bathtub at this point?


    Grigorovitch is way better than Neustrachimy.

    That's a failed ship with no real capabilities....

    And Gorshkov is way better than Grigorevich

    Neustrashimyy exists now which is more than can be said for 30% of placeholder ship

    Unlike HMS 30% it's in service and has been getting the job done round the clock with another one is on the way

    So it has real capabilities otherwise they wouldn't be using it

    You are suggesting that they torch perfectly functional warship so they could MAYBE get marginally improved one in nearly 10 years which would be even more inferior to contemporary ships than it is now

    And one which would still be out of engines halfway through it's service life because it would be getting 30 years old ones from the get go

    Brilliant... Rolling Eyes





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    Post  GarryB Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:37 am

    Also why would India care about not being able to buy stuff from Ukraine?

    Because India operates a few ships that use Ukrainian components and a lot of the soviet stuff they operate can be supported by either Russia or the Ukraine and they can get better prices from the Ukraine even though the chances of getting substandard products or just money stolen is much higher with the Ukraine, it helps keeps support prices lower.

    Admiral Grigorovich class have COGAG propulsion and use both M90FR and M70FRU. M90FR is also used on Gorshkov class frigates and they delivered new engines for Admiral Golovko. M70FRU engines are also used on Zubr LCAC and first produced are delivered for Zubr ships. Saturn produce both engines and they will deliver needed engines for remaining Grigorovich class frigates. At the moment Zubr and Gorshkov were first on the list for deliveries.


    I think that solves the problem...
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    Post  medo Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:04 am

    https://vpk.name/en/467256_progress-in-the-production-of-marine-gas-turbine-engines-in-russia.html

    During the press conference, issues related to the construction of marine gas turbine engines of the M70 family were also discussed. Thus, as part of the import substitution program under a contract with the Ministry of industry and trade, development work was carried out to create modifications of the m70fru-2 and M70FRU-R engines with a reversible power turbine. "These ocds have been successfully completed. According to the results of state tests, the design documentation for engines was assigned the letter O1. As for the m70fru-2 engine, we have manufactured and are in storage, which are planned for the lead ships "Zubr" and "Murena", - said I. Belyaev.



    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich - Page 35 Gtd110

    M70 engines are in production and first are stored for Zubr LCAC. Saturn produce both engines needed for Grigorovich and tehy will be delivered, when come their turn on the list.

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:57 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Also why would India care about not being able to buy stuff from Ukraine?

    Because India operates a few ships that use Ukrainian components and a lot of the soviet stuff they operate can be supported by either Russia or the Ukraine and they can get better prices from the Ukraine even though the chances of getting substandard products or just money stolen is much higher with the Ukraine, it helps keeps support prices lower.

    Admiral Grigorovich class have COGAG propulsion and use both M90FR and M70FRU. M90FR is also used on Gorshkov class frigates and they delivered new engines for Admiral Golovko. M70FRU engines are also used on Zubr LCAC and first produced are delivered for Zubr ships. Saturn produce both engines and they will deliver needed engines for remaining Grigorovich class frigates. At the moment Zubr and Gorshkov were first on the list for deliveries.


    I think that solves the problem...
    From what i undestand 11356 frigate have
    2 DS-71 cruise gas turbines 8,450 shp (6,300 kW);
    2 DT-59 boost gas turbines 22,000 shp (16,000 kW) ;

    Total: 60,900 shp (45,400 kW)

    Someone was proposing to use instead the new russian gas turbines, e.g.

    2 x  M70FRU-2  , 8 MW  as cruise turbine and
    2 x M90FR FRU 20 (25/28) MW as boost turbine  boost ,
    total>56 MW

    M90 is more powerful than they need for boost, probably it can be derated (or it could maybe allow a  slighty higher max speed.
    They have also another turbine with 14 MW, but probably is too small.

    The issue is that those engines do not go on their own but they also need a dedicate gearbox. Furthermore if the engines are rated differently than the original ones.  And Zvezda is quite slow in developing them.  

    It is not just a matter of having just the gas turbines of a similar power output.

    Of course they can adapt it and find a solution, the question is if it is worth to invest money and time on it whem they have other ship projects in similar weight class (the slightly smaller 20386 and the larger 22350).

    Especially since there is only one single hull remaining that is partially built.

    For further ships they could even do an internal redesign to allow the same power plants that goes in Gorshkov class to be used, albeit with significant modification and cost.

    But what is the point in it?

    At this point it would be  easier to take the hull and engine of 22350 and fit it with the outdated sensors, sonar and weapon systems that are in 11356 for the customers that cannot afford a 22350E

    As said before, 11356 was interesting because it was relatively cheap and there was already experience in building it. If they start modifying it it will not be cheap anymore...

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    Post  LMFS Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:23 am

    Sorry if you already explained that, I am not following this issue in depth. Why does not Russia just sell the hull or the complete vessel for India at a fair price? They get the engines from the ukies and give them to Russia, both make money and Ukraine will not complain. It makes no sense to invest resources in one single hull, much less when companies like Zvezda have their hands more than full with the demands of critical vessels for the VMF. Not a single second should be wasted in the 11356 IMHO beyond recovering the money of the hull and emptying the yard according to a known, easy to implement project.

    owais.usmani likes this post


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    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich - Page 35 Empty Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

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