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Log inCan anyone please help, i have read that since 2008 the organisation ofa VDV airborne Company has changed, can anyone help with this new organisation and numbers of men.
thanks
Steve
thanks
Steve
5 posters
Organisation of an Airborne Company
steve501- Posts : 34
Points : 64
Join date : 2012-08-03
Age : 53
Location : England
steve501- Posts : 34
Points : 64
Join date : 2012-08-03
Age : 53
Location : England
I have been reading the ""Russia New Army" by the Centre for Analysis of Stratedgies and Technologies, Moscow" which are about the 2008 reforms and especially the Airborne reforms and several lines interested me " the structure of the Airborne Troop companies and battalions have undergone substantial transformation. a change introduced in 2006 is that the RPG 7/16 are now issued only to specialist RPG/Machine gun squads within the companies, the remainder of squads are armed with RPG 18/22 and 26 ATRL. Apart from the grenade and machine gun squads each company now has a sniper squad armed with 12.7mm rifles and other weaponry"
1) Does anyone know if these changes are implemented yet and if so - What is the structure of the Airborne Company now.
2) Are the grenade and machine gun squads incorporated as a Weapon Squad in each platoon or a weapon platoon within the company.
3) If the company are in IFV (BMD 2/3/4)are these weapon squads issued with BMD or BTR-D
4) If the company are in IFV in which transport do the Company Sniper Section travel
Hope you can help me with any or all these questions
many thanks
Steve
1) Does anyone know if these changes are implemented yet and if so - What is the structure of the Airborne Company now.
2) Are the grenade and machine gun squads incorporated as a Weapon Squad in each platoon or a weapon platoon within the company.
3) If the company are in IFV (BMD 2/3/4)are these weapon squads issued with BMD or BTR-D
4) If the company are in IFV in which transport do the Company Sniper Section travel
Hope you can help me with any or all these questions
many thanks
Steve
steve501- Posts : 34
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Join date : 2012-08-03
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Location : England
- Post n°3
Help Needed with 2000 era Airborne Company Organisation and strength
steve501 Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:02 pm
Hi all, i have decided against trying to model a current airborne company in 1.1 (28mm figures)there is not enough information available.Can anyone help with the organisation of a 2000 era Airborne Company organisation i was especially thinking 104th Parachute Regiment 2000 chechen war organisation.
Any help would be great
cheers
Steve
Any help would be great
cheers
Steve
steve501- Posts : 34
Points : 64
Join date : 2012-08-03
Age : 53
Location : England
I have come accross the following, which i realise is only theoretical, but i am unsure how accurate it is :
Airborne Parachute Company (Non BMD IFV)
7 Officers 78 Other Ranks
Company HQ - 3:5
Anti-tank Platoon - 1:14 ( 3 x AT7)
3 x Rifle Platoon (ea) - 1:20
(3 Squads (1:6/0:7/0:7) each 1 x RPG7V/16D,1 RPKS-74,1 x SVD,1-2 x RPG22/26 and 1 x RPO
Attached as required :
Artillery Forward Observation Team
Air Forward Observation Team
Reece Squads
AGL Squad
SAM Squad
Does anyoneknow how accurate this is.
1) Is the A-tk Platoon always used as an A-tk Platoon or would it be used as a Wapons Platoon
2) Where would the PKP/PKM machine guns fit into the Company -How many and allocated to which units.
many thanks
Steve
Airborne Parachute Company (Non BMD IFV)
7 Officers 78 Other Ranks
Company HQ - 3:5
Anti-tank Platoon - 1:14 ( 3 x AT7)
3 x Rifle Platoon (ea) - 1:20
(3 Squads (1:6/0:7/0:7) each 1 x RPG7V/16D,1 RPKS-74,1 x SVD,1-2 x RPG22/26 and 1 x RPO
Attached as required :
Artillery Forward Observation Team
Air Forward Observation Team
Reece Squads
AGL Squad
SAM Squad
Does anyoneknow how accurate this is.
1) Is the A-tk Platoon always used as an A-tk Platoon or would it be used as a Wapons Platoon
2) Where would the PKP/PKM machine guns fit into the Company -How many and allocated to which units.
many thanks
Steve
GarryB- Posts : 37261
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Enemy armour is a real threat to airbourne forces, so I would suspect the AT-7 team... which likely actually has AT-13 Saxhorn (ie Metis-M1) missiles would carry primarily anti armour missiles.
Regarding PKM, it would be mounted on BMDs, while the PKP largely was used to replace the RPK-74.
Note the Russians/Soviets have had a lot of experience with LMGs... the RP-46 was a belt or drum feet 7.62 x 54mm calibre weapon with removable barrel, which was replaced by the fixed barrel 7.62 x 39mm calibre RPD that was belt fed. This was replaced with the RPK and then the RPK-74 with box feed only. There were tests with a belt fed 5.45mm calibre RPK, but it was decided that the round lacked range and power for the role so the PKP was developed as a very heavy LMG.
It is much much heavier than the FN Minimi, but as has been found by the British and Americans that the 5.56mm from the short barrel of the Minimi is really only effective to 200m. The PKP is much heavier and the ammo is also much heavier but with an effective range of 800m plus and much more powerful it is also a more effective weapon.
BTW I hope you don't think we are all ignoring your questions... TOEs are not often general knowledge and are hard to come by.
Regarding PKM, it would be mounted on BMDs, while the PKP largely was used to replace the RPK-74.
Note the Russians/Soviets have had a lot of experience with LMGs... the RP-46 was a belt or drum feet 7.62 x 54mm calibre weapon with removable barrel, which was replaced by the fixed barrel 7.62 x 39mm calibre RPD that was belt fed. This was replaced with the RPK and then the RPK-74 with box feed only. There were tests with a belt fed 5.45mm calibre RPK, but it was decided that the round lacked range and power for the role so the PKP was developed as a very heavy LMG.
It is much much heavier than the FN Minimi, but as has been found by the British and Americans that the 5.56mm from the short barrel of the Minimi is really only effective to 200m. The PKP is much heavier and the ammo is also much heavier but with an effective range of 800m plus and much more powerful it is also a more effective weapon.
BTW I hope you don't think we are all ignoring your questions... TOEs are not often general knowledge and are hard to come by.
steve501- Posts : 34
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Thanks Gary, to be honest i was wondering if some of my questions were a bit too sensative, one question though - if the above organisation is correct then a 15 man A-tk platoon seems a little high for 3 x AT-13 - any thoughts
cheers
Steve
cheers
Steve
GarryB- Posts : 37261
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An AT-13 missile system is man portable... just.
To explain the requirement for 15 soldiers for three launchers is fairly straight forward... three guys carrying the launchers and one missile each. Then two other soldiers each carrying two missiles for each launcher, which would be 6 soldiers.
That means of the 15 soldiers in the unit 9 would be carrying a launcher and a missile or two missiles, which leaves 6 soldiers, that could include perhaps an extra soldier for each missile launcher with a rifle and disposable launchers for close in defence, which leaves three soldiers... the unit commander and the radioman and another soldier to protect them with his rifle.
In combat the men with the launchers would set up somewhere with the guys with the reload missiles close by offering protection with their rifles. The commander would set up somewhere with good visibility of the enemy and his own forces and the radioman would get instructions from higher up and manage communications within the unit
I am certain about the Metis-M1 being carried by three people for each system... I am assuming the rest.
To explain the requirement for 15 soldiers for three launchers is fairly straight forward... three guys carrying the launchers and one missile each. Then two other soldiers each carrying two missiles for each launcher, which would be 6 soldiers.
That means of the 15 soldiers in the unit 9 would be carrying a launcher and a missile or two missiles, which leaves 6 soldiers, that could include perhaps an extra soldier for each missile launcher with a rifle and disposable launchers for close in defence, which leaves three soldiers... the unit commander and the radioman and another soldier to protect them with his rifle.
In combat the men with the launchers would set up somewhere with the guys with the reload missiles close by offering protection with their rifles. The commander would set up somewhere with good visibility of the enemy and his own forces and the radioman would get instructions from higher up and manage communications within the unit
I am certain about the Metis-M1 being carried by three people for each system... I am assuming the rest.
steve501- Posts : 34
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Thanks again yet more info - it makes sense, do you think each section would be armed with PKP as well for protection
thanks
Steve
thanks
Steve
Last edited by steve501 on Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
GarryB- Posts : 37261
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Yes, I would think so.
In BMP units they had special firing ports for RPK and PKM machine guns, but the BMDs had hull front mounted PKTs.
The PKT actually replaced the SG43 machine gun as a coaxial weapon on armoured vehicles.
It save money the PKT differs from the standard PKM in having a longer barrel that is also very heavy.
The heavy barrel allows longer and more frequent bursts to be fired, but the longer barrel was so it matched the trajectory of the SG43 gun so they could keep using the existing sights.
In BMP units they had special firing ports for RPK and PKM machine guns, but the BMDs had hull front mounted PKTs.
The PKT actually replaced the SG43 machine gun as a coaxial weapon on armoured vehicles.
It save money the PKT differs from the standard PKM in having a longer barrel that is also very heavy.
The heavy barrel allows longer and more frequent bursts to be fired, but the longer barrel was so it matched the trajectory of the SG43 gun so they could keep using the existing sights.
steve501- Posts : 34
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Join date : 2012-08-03
Age : 53
Location : England
I have come across another list (FM100-60: 1997) which states a differnt organisation and strength however the figures seem a little high to me:
Airborne Infantry Company ( NON IFV (BMD))
a) Company HQ
Company Commander : PM/AKSU-74
Deputy Commander : PM/AKSU-74
Logistic Officer : PM/AKSU-74
1st Sergeant : AKS-74/UBGL
Radio Operator ( from signal platoon): AKS-74
Medic : AKS-74
b) ATGM Platoon
Platoon Leader : AKS-74
Senior Rifleman : AKS-74/UBGL
ATGM Operator (3):PM/AT7
Assistant Operator (3): AKS-74
c) Airborne Platoon (3)
1) Platoon Leader : PM/AKS-74
2) Airborne Infantry Squad (3)
Squad Leader : AKS-74
Assistant Squad Leader : AKS-74/UBGL
Senior Rifleman : AKS-74/UBGL
Machine Gunner : RPKS-74 ( Replaced with PKP)
Rifleman (3): AKS-74
Sniper : SVD
Note 1 x RPG22/26 and 1 x RPO issued to squad
3) Weapon Squad
Squad Leader : AKS-74/UBGL
Machine Gunner(3): PKM
Assistant Machine Gunner(3): AKS-74
Grenadier (2) : RPG16D/PM
This give the company a total strength of 6 Officers and 107 Other Ranks which appears a little high to me.
any comments or thoughts
thanks
Steve
Airborne Infantry Company ( NON IFV (BMD))
a) Company HQ
Company Commander : PM/AKSU-74
Deputy Commander : PM/AKSU-74
Logistic Officer : PM/AKSU-74
1st Sergeant : AKS-74/UBGL
Radio Operator ( from signal platoon): AKS-74
Medic : AKS-74
b) ATGM Platoon
Platoon Leader : AKS-74
Senior Rifleman : AKS-74/UBGL
ATGM Operator (3):PM/AT7
Assistant Operator (3): AKS-74
c) Airborne Platoon (3)
1) Platoon Leader : PM/AKS-74
2) Airborne Infantry Squad (3)
Squad Leader : AKS-74
Assistant Squad Leader : AKS-74/UBGL
Senior Rifleman : AKS-74/UBGL
Machine Gunner : RPKS-74 ( Replaced with PKP)
Rifleman (3): AKS-74
Sniper : SVD
Note 1 x RPG22/26 and 1 x RPO issued to squad
3) Weapon Squad
Squad Leader : AKS-74/UBGL
Machine Gunner(3): PKM
Assistant Machine Gunner(3): AKS-74
Grenadier (2) : RPG16D/PM
This give the company a total strength of 6 Officers and 107 Other Ranks which appears a little high to me.
any comments or thoughts
thanks
Steve
steve501- Posts : 34
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On the same Field Manual (FM100-60) i came across the IFV company as well which i thought i would list for any comments :
Airborne Infantry Company (IFV)
a) Company HQ - BMD1/2/3
Company Commander : PM/AKSU-74
Deputy Commander : PM/AKSU-74
Logistic Officer : PM/AKSU-74
1st Sergeant : AKS-74/UBGL
Radio Operator ( from signal platoon): AKS-74
IFV Driver/Mechanic : PM
IFV Gunner : AKSU-74
1x RPG22/26/1x RPO issued
b) Airborne Platoon (3)BMD1/2/3
Platoon Leader : PM/AKS-74
Airborne Infantry Squad (3)
Squad Leader : AKS-74/UBGL
IFV Driver/Mechanic : PM
IFV Gunner : AKSU-74
Senior Rifleman : AKS-74/UBGL
Machine Gunner : RPKS-74 (Replaced with PKP)
Grenadier: RPG16D/AKSU-74
Rifleman: AKS-74
1x RPG22/26/1x RPO issued to squad
Note:
* Platoon leader takes the place of one squad leader in one squad vehicle
* The dismounted squad element consists of 5 personnel. The IFV crew remain with the IFV to provide fire support.
* Unlike the RPG16D, the RPG 22/26 and the RPO have no dedictated operator
* One squad per platoon carries a SVD sniper rifle
Total Company : 6 Officers 64 Other Ranks - 10 BMD1/2/3
Again any omments or thoughts welcome
thanks
Steve
Airborne Infantry Company (IFV)
a) Company HQ - BMD1/2/3
Company Commander : PM/AKSU-74
Deputy Commander : PM/AKSU-74
Logistic Officer : PM/AKSU-74
1st Sergeant : AKS-74/UBGL
Radio Operator ( from signal platoon): AKS-74
IFV Driver/Mechanic : PM
IFV Gunner : AKSU-74
1x RPG22/26/1x RPO issued
b) Airborne Platoon (3)BMD1/2/3
Platoon Leader : PM/AKS-74
Airborne Infantry Squad (3)
Squad Leader : AKS-74/UBGL
IFV Driver/Mechanic : PM
IFV Gunner : AKSU-74
Senior Rifleman : AKS-74/UBGL
Machine Gunner : RPKS-74 (Replaced with PKP)
Grenadier: RPG16D/AKSU-74
Rifleman: AKS-74
1x RPG22/26/1x RPO issued to squad
Note:
* Platoon leader takes the place of one squad leader in one squad vehicle
* The dismounted squad element consists of 5 personnel. The IFV crew remain with the IFV to provide fire support.
* Unlike the RPG16D, the RPG 22/26 and the RPO have no dedictated operator
* One squad per platoon carries a SVD sniper rifle
Total Company : 6 Officers 64 Other Ranks - 10 BMD1/2/3
Again any omments or thoughts welcome
thanks
Steve
Last edited by steve501 on Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:04 am; edited 1 time in total
GarryB- Posts : 37261
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b) ATGM Platoon
Platoon Leader : AKS-74
Senior Rifleman : AKS-74/UBGL
ATGM Operator (3):PM/AT7
Assistant Operator (3): AKS-74
Small platoon... only 8 guys.
Total Company : 6 Officers 64 Other Ranaks - 10 BMD1/2/3
AFAIK most BMDs in service are 1 and 2 with very few 3s.
The standard troop transport AFAIK is the turretless BTR-D which is longer than the standard BMD with an extra wheel and the capacity to carry more soldiers than the standard models. They are often shown with an ATGM launcher mounted on their roofs.
I rather suspect that the AT-7s have been replaced now by AT-13s which have greater range and penetration.
I would also suspect the RPG-29 has replaced the RPG-16, and the RPG-27 and RPG-28 have replaced the RPG-22/-26. Equally the RPO PDM-A launcher has probably replaced the RPO.
They are introducing a lot of new kit, including the new ADS bullpup rifle, and a new thermal scope, and they have also bought new Steyr sniper rifles in 7.62 x 51mm calibre for new sniper units.
steve501- Posts : 34
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Thanks again Gary, please remember i am looking at a 2000-2005 era Airborne Company not current. The BTR-D being used as a troop transport i ws not awrae of this - do you know how these would be intergrated withh the BMD within the companies ? i thought they were primarily used for weapon squads. With requards the ATGM Platoon i believe section would be a better title. What are youre thoughts on the 1 Officer 34 Other Rank platoons and the 6 officer 107 other rank companies do these seem the right size ?
thanks
Steve
thanks
Steve
GarryB- Posts : 37261
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I remember in the 1980s and 1990s western commentators commenting about the BMDs that had 9 soldiers sitting on them and how that exceeded the capacity of the vehicles and was written off as an attempt at misinformation.
The BTR-D is a custom designed troop carrier, and was used to increase the numbers of soldiers in a unit much the same way BTRs and MTLBs could increase the numbers of infantry in BMP units.
There were also cargo carrying versions and an anti tank and anti aircraft version with an anti tank missile like AT-5/-4 launcher, or SA-14/-18 gripstocks. There was also a model with towed twin 23mm cannon on top of it, and I have seen a photo of a Vasilek 82mm automatic mortar mounted on it in Afghanistan.
It used aluminium armour... which sounds bad (powdered aluminium is added to fireworks to make the white sparks) but the lighter metal was structurally better... x tons of steel would be too thin and would crack easily in use, whereas the same weight in aluminium was a lot thicker and got more strength in being thicker.
Think of it in terms of strength vs weight... a 5mm sheet of Aluminium would be stronger than a .25mm sheet of steel of the same weight because when steel is that thin it is not very strong.
BTW the 2000-2005 VDV should still have had RPG-29, RPG-27 and maybe 28 disposable launchers, and AT-13.
AT-7 and RPG-16 are mid to late 1980s stuff.
Vlad, can you shed any light on how widespread the use of BTR-D vehicles were, and of course the numbers?
I rather suspect that no one VDV formation exactly matched its official TOE, and that such things were rule of thumb.
The BTR-D is a custom designed troop carrier, and was used to increase the numbers of soldiers in a unit much the same way BTRs and MTLBs could increase the numbers of infantry in BMP units.
There were also cargo carrying versions and an anti tank and anti aircraft version with an anti tank missile like AT-5/-4 launcher, or SA-14/-18 gripstocks. There was also a model with towed twin 23mm cannon on top of it, and I have seen a photo of a Vasilek 82mm automatic mortar mounted on it in Afghanistan.
It used aluminium armour... which sounds bad (powdered aluminium is added to fireworks to make the white sparks) but the lighter metal was structurally better... x tons of steel would be too thin and would crack easily in use, whereas the same weight in aluminium was a lot thicker and got more strength in being thicker.
Think of it in terms of strength vs weight... a 5mm sheet of Aluminium would be stronger than a .25mm sheet of steel of the same weight because when steel is that thin it is not very strong.
BTW the 2000-2005 VDV should still have had RPG-29, RPG-27 and maybe 28 disposable launchers, and AT-13.
AT-7 and RPG-16 are mid to late 1980s stuff.
Vlad, can you shed any light on how widespread the use of BTR-D vehicles were, and of course the numbers?
I rather suspect that no one VDV formation exactly matched its official TOE, and that such things were rule of thumb.
GarryB- Posts : 37261
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I know it is not the best source, but the wiki page for the BTR-D says this:
Looks like too many BTR-Ds for just weapon support teams.
As of now BTR-D and vehicles based on it are used by the following units of Russian Army or are stationed in following bases:
76th airborne (CDO) division from Pskov which is part of Leningrad Military District (90 BTR vehicles, 30 BTR-RD and 49 BTR-ZD as of 2000), the subunits of this division include
104th airborne regiment from Pskov (34 BTR-D, 6 BTR-RD , 13 BTR-ZD and 6 BMD-1KSh)
234th airborne regiment from Pskov (32 BTR-D, 6 BTR-RD , 12 BTR-ZD and 5 BMD-1KSh)
1140th artillery regiment from Pskov (14 BTR-RD , 3 BTR-ZD , 1 BMD-1KSh and 18 2S9 Anona)
165th independent air defense division from Pskov (4 BTR-ZD and 1 BMD-1KSh)
656th independent engineer battalion from Pskov (8 BTR-D and 1 BMD-1KSh)
728th independent commandos battalion from Pskov (2 BTR-D, 6 BMD-1KSh, 3 BMD-1R and 2 R-440-ODB )
7th independent repair battalion from Pskov (2 BTR-D).[15]
98th airborne division from Ivanovo (92 BTR vehicles, 27 BTR-RD and 38 BTR-ZD as of 2000), the subunits of this division include
217th airborne regiment from Ivanovo (32 BTR-D, 6 BTR-RD , 11 BTR-ZD , 7 BMD-1KSh and 1 BMD-1R)
331st airborne regiment from Kostroma (33 BTR-D, 6 BTR-RD , 15 BTR-ZD , 5 BMD-1KSh and 1 BMD-1R)
1065th artillery regiment from Kostroma (15 BTR-RD , 3 BTR-ZD and 2 BMD-1KSh)
318th independent air defense division from Ivanovo (4 BTR-D, 8 BTR-ZD and 1 BMD-1KSh)
661st independent engineer battalion from Ivanovo (7 BTR-D and 1 BMD-1KSh)
674th independent commandos battalion from Pskov (2 BTR-D, 6 BMD-1KSh, 4 BMD-1R and 3 R-440-ODB )
15th independent repair battalion from Pskov (7 BTR-D).[15]
106th airborne division from Tula which is a part of the Moscow Military District (132 BTR vehicles, 33 BTR-RD and 49 BTR-ZD as of 2000), the subunits of this division include
51stairborne regiment from Tula (32 BTR-D, 6 BTR-RD , 13 BTR-ZD , 2 BMD-1KSh and 1 BMD-1R)
137th airborne regiment from Ryazan (38 BTR-D, 6 BTR-RD , 13 BTR-ZD , 7 BMD-1KSh and 1 BMD-1R)
1182nd artillery regiment from Yefremov (4 BTR-D, 3 BTR-ZD , 2 BMD-1KSh and 18 2S9 Anona)
107th independent air defense division from Donskoy (18 BTR-D, 6 BTR-ZD and 1 BMD-1KSh)
332nd independent engineer battalion from Tula (8 BTR-D and 1 BMD-1KSh)
731st independent commandos battalion from Tula (2 BTR-D, 6 BMD-1KSh, 5 BMD-1R and 2 R-440-ODB )
15th independent repair battalion from Tula (4 BTR-D and 1 BREM-D).[15]
7th CDO mountain division from Novorossyysk (121 BTR vehicles, 27 BTR-RD, 38 BTR-ZD and 55 2S9 Anona as of 2000), the subunits of this division include
108th airborne regiment from Novorossyysk (35 BTR-D, 9 BTR-RD , 13 BTR-ZD , 7 BMD-1KSh and 19 2S9 Anona)
247th CDO regiment from Stavropol' (26 BTR-D, 9 BTR-RD and 13 BTR-ZD )
1141st artillery regiment from Anapa (5 BTR-D and 9 BTR-ZD )
30th independent air defense division from Novorossyysk (4 BTR-D and 8 BTR-ZD )
629th independent engineer battalion from Starotitarovskaya (8 BTR-D)
743rd independent commandos battalion from Novorossyysk (2 BTR-D, 8 BMD-1KSh and 3 R-440-ODB )
6th independent repair battalion from Novorossyysk (4 BTR-D and 1 BREM-D).[15]
31st independent airborne brigade from Ul'yanovsk which is a part of the Volga-Ural Military District (57 BTR-D, 24 BTR-RD, 19 BTR-ZD, 8 BMD-1KSh and 2 BMD-1R as of 2000).[15]
45th independent Spetznaz regiment from Kubinka, Moscow (1 BTR-D).[15]
Ryazan airborne troops institute (6 BTR-D, 5 BTR-RD, 2 BTR-ZD and 2 BMD-1KSh).[15]
Looks like too many BTR-Ds for just weapon support teams.
steve501- Posts : 34
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Thanks Gary that's interesting shame it didnt show the number of BMD along side this - do you think the BMD and BTR-D would be mixed up at Company /Platoon level ?
thanks
steve
thanks
steve
GarryB- Posts : 37261
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They would likely use them the way the Army uses the MTLB and BTR-60/-70/80 series APCs.
They carry more troops than the BMP/BMD though they lack firepower, so a good mix of both types keeps the infantry numbers high and maintains mobility, while at the same time allowing for fire power requirements... which need to be high... especially for airborne forces.
note western forces are much more lightly equipped than the Soviet and Russian forces were, but in operational terms they represent a very isolated force that needs to be mobile and very well trained to be of use.
In modern war most western countries write off airborne units and prefer air mobile units that are delivered by helo, but in actual fact Helo transport is tricky to do well and actually parachute dropping still makes sense because of its armour.
A normal para unit relies on surprise so you pretty much have to drop them near their target which is dangerous if the target is well protected.
A VDV unit however is fully mechanised and so you can drop them 100kms away from their target where the enemies defences are weak and they can drive to their target within an hour and still rely on surprise for success... largely because they get there quickly because they are so mobile but also because the enemy has no idea where they might be going and what they might be attacking.
This is an enormous difference... and add to that that a vehicle like a BMD-4M has serious fire power yet excellent mobility that it would be able to take on enemy rear units, which are generally not that well equipped or trained, and you would have to say they are a real asset for Russia.
...and the equipment is only getting better... Kornet-EM missiles with 8.5km range against ground armour and 10km range against aerial and ground soft targets, new assault rifles and sniper weapons, new vehicles....
They carry more troops than the BMP/BMD though they lack firepower, so a good mix of both types keeps the infantry numbers high and maintains mobility, while at the same time allowing for fire power requirements... which need to be high... especially for airborne forces.
note western forces are much more lightly equipped than the Soviet and Russian forces were, but in operational terms they represent a very isolated force that needs to be mobile and very well trained to be of use.
In modern war most western countries write off airborne units and prefer air mobile units that are delivered by helo, but in actual fact Helo transport is tricky to do well and actually parachute dropping still makes sense because of its armour.
A normal para unit relies on surprise so you pretty much have to drop them near their target which is dangerous if the target is well protected.
A VDV unit however is fully mechanised and so you can drop them 100kms away from their target where the enemies defences are weak and they can drive to their target within an hour and still rely on surprise for success... largely because they get there quickly because they are so mobile but also because the enemy has no idea where they might be going and what they might be attacking.
This is an enormous difference... and add to that that a vehicle like a BMD-4M has serious fire power yet excellent mobility that it would be able to take on enemy rear units, which are generally not that well equipped or trained, and you would have to say they are a real asset for Russia.
...and the equipment is only getting better... Kornet-EM missiles with 8.5km range against ground armour and 10km range against aerial and ground soft targets, new assault rifles and sniper weapons, new vehicles....
steve501- Posts : 34
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Thanks again Garry, i have done a bit more research and have come up with the following (For Comment). I have taken 331st Regiment 98th Airborne Division as an example :
1) Regiment HQ - 3 x BTR-D, 1 x BMD-1KSh and 1 x BMD-1V119
2) Battalion (3 Number) ea:
Battalion HQ - 2 x BMD-1KSh
1st Company - 10 x BMD1
2nd Company - 10 x BMD1
3rd Company - 10 x BMD1
Recce. Platoon - 3 x BMD1
AGL Platoon - 3 x BTR-D
SAM Platoon - 3 x BMD-ZD
Total each Battalion - 33 x BMD1, 2xBMD-1KSh, 3 x BTR-D and 3 x BTR-ZD
Total for 3 Battalions - 99 x BMD1, 6xBMD-1KSh, 9 x BTR-D and 9 x BTR-ZD
3) Air Defence Battery - 1 x BTR-D and 6 x BTR-ZD with ZU23
4) ATGM Battery - 1 x BTR-D, 1 x BMD-1V119 and 6 x BTR-RD
5) SP Gun Battalion
HQ - 2 x BMD-1V119
Battery (3) 2 x BMD-1V119 and 6 x 2S9
Total 8 x BMD1V119 and 18 x 2S9
6) Recon Company - 7 x BTR-D and 3 x BMD1
(NOTE This seems a bit strange to me i would expect either all BMD1 or all BTR-D)
7) Engineer Company - 10 x BTR-D
Signal Platoon (for Regimental HQ) - 2x BTR-D and 1 x BMD-1R
Total for Regiment:
BMD 1 - 102
BTR-D - 33
BTR-ZD - 15
BTR-RD - 6
BMD-1R - 1
BMD-1KSh - 7
BMD-1V119 - 10
If these figures are correct ( i have cross referenced against 3 different sources) then i would suggest that the main rifle companies use only the BMD for troop transport but again is this correct ?
Hope this helps stimulate more discussion.
cheers
Steve
1) Regiment HQ - 3 x BTR-D, 1 x BMD-1KSh and 1 x BMD-1V119
2) Battalion (3 Number) ea:
Battalion HQ - 2 x BMD-1KSh
1st Company - 10 x BMD1
2nd Company - 10 x BMD1
3rd Company - 10 x BMD1
Recce. Platoon - 3 x BMD1
AGL Platoon - 3 x BTR-D
SAM Platoon - 3 x BMD-ZD
Total each Battalion - 33 x BMD1, 2xBMD-1KSh, 3 x BTR-D and 3 x BTR-ZD
Total for 3 Battalions - 99 x BMD1, 6xBMD-1KSh, 9 x BTR-D and 9 x BTR-ZD
3) Air Defence Battery - 1 x BTR-D and 6 x BTR-ZD with ZU23
4) ATGM Battery - 1 x BTR-D, 1 x BMD-1V119 and 6 x BTR-RD
5) SP Gun Battalion
HQ - 2 x BMD-1V119
Battery (3) 2 x BMD-1V119 and 6 x 2S9
Total 8 x BMD1V119 and 18 x 2S9
6) Recon Company - 7 x BTR-D and 3 x BMD1
(NOTE This seems a bit strange to me i would expect either all BMD1 or all BTR-D)
7) Engineer Company - 10 x BTR-D
Signal Platoon (for Regimental HQ) - 2x BTR-D and 1 x BMD-1RTotal for Regiment:
BMD 1 - 102
BTR-D - 33
BTR-ZD - 15
BTR-RD - 6
BMD-1R - 1
BMD-1KSh - 7
BMD-1V119 - 10
If these figures are correct ( i have cross referenced against 3 different sources) then i would suggest that the main rifle companies use only the BMD for troop transport but again is this correct ?
Hope this helps stimulate more discussion.
cheers
Steve
steve501- Posts : 34
Points : 64
Join date : 2012-08-03
Age : 53
Location : England
I have read another source which states each company has 1 BTR-D as well as 10 BMD 1/2 so i am even more confused now.
cheers
Steve
cheers
Steve
GarryB- Posts : 37261
Points : 37775
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
It is possible that in some units they might use the BTR-D like the Army uses MTLBs.
In other words they might use it to tow heavy weapons like ZU-23 air defence weapons with ammo and crew in the BTR-D.
The Army also tends to substitute MTLBs for BMPs for use in deep snow or deep mud because of its better mobility... the extra length and reduced weight of not having a turret should mean the BTR-D has better rough country mobility and of course more troops which for some purposes is more useful than the firepower that is given up.
TOEs are rule of thumb type deals anyway and in practise they are allowed to mix and match... especially in real combat.
For instance my nephew was the commander of a LAV unit for the NZ army and the normal load out was for him to have the short barrel AUG carbine and a P229 Sig Sauer pistol, his gunner to have a standard AUG with a 40mm underbarrel grenade launcher and pistol and his driver to have a pistol and short barrel AUG.
When he went to Afghanistan he took the full length barrel AUG with the grenade launcher and had his driver issued with a full length Steyr AUG, and he had the gunner issued with a short barrelled FN Minimi. (I think the NZ army call them C7s).
The point is that weapons and equipment configuration depend on a lot of things, and that includes availability. Lots of people ask why Soviet and Russian soldiers never seem to wear the same uniform... especially in combat. The thing is that they have at least four distinct seasons in Russia so they have uniforms to match, and when you rip your pants and go to get a new pair they might not have the right pattern to match your jacket in your size at the time. Are you going to run around the exercise ground in your underpants?
Things are improving now in that regard...
In other words they might use it to tow heavy weapons like ZU-23 air defence weapons with ammo and crew in the BTR-D.
The Army also tends to substitute MTLBs for BMPs for use in deep snow or deep mud because of its better mobility... the extra length and reduced weight of not having a turret should mean the BTR-D has better rough country mobility and of course more troops which for some purposes is more useful than the firepower that is given up.
TOEs are rule of thumb type deals anyway and in practise they are allowed to mix and match... especially in real combat.
For instance my nephew was the commander of a LAV unit for the NZ army and the normal load out was for him to have the short barrel AUG carbine and a P229 Sig Sauer pistol, his gunner to have a standard AUG with a 40mm underbarrel grenade launcher and pistol and his driver to have a pistol and short barrel AUG.
When he went to Afghanistan he took the full length barrel AUG with the grenade launcher and had his driver issued with a full length Steyr AUG, and he had the gunner issued with a short barrelled FN Minimi. (I think the NZ army call them C7s).
The point is that weapons and equipment configuration depend on a lot of things, and that includes availability. Lots of people ask why Soviet and Russian soldiers never seem to wear the same uniform... especially in combat. The thing is that they have at least four distinct seasons in Russia so they have uniforms to match, and when you rip your pants and go to get a new pair they might not have the right pattern to match your jacket in your size at the time. Are you going to run around the exercise ground in your underpants?
Things are improving now in that regard...
steve501- Posts : 34
Points : 64
Join date : 2012-08-03
Age : 53
Location : England
I have discovered another source which lists the following :
Airborne Infantry Company (IFV)
a) Company HQ -
Company Commander : PM/AKS-74
Deputy Commander : PM/AKS-74
Logistic Officer : PM/AKS-74
1st Sergeant : AKS-74/UBGL
Technician : AKS-74
Medic (sgt): AKS-74
Radio Operator ( from signal platoon): AKS-74
b) HQ Section
Squad Leader - AKS-74
Senior Rifleman - AKS-74/UBGL
Rifleman/Medic (2) - AKS-74
IFV Driver/Mechanic : PM (BMD)
IFV Gunner : AKSU-74 (BMD)
Driver : AKSU-74 (BTR-D)
2x RPG27/28 and 1x RPO PDM-A issued
1 x BMD1/2/3 and 1 x BTR-D
C) Airborne Platoon (3 Number)BMD1/2/3
Platoon Leader : PM/AKS-74
Airborne Infantry Squad (3)
Squad Leader : AKS-74/UBGL
IFV Driver/Mechanic : PM
IFV Gunner : AKSU-74
Senior Rifleman : AKS-74/UBGL
Machine Gunner : RPKS-74 (Replaced with PKP)
Grenadier: RPG-7D3/AKSU-74
Rifleman: AKS-74
1x RPG27/28/1x RPO-PDM-A issued to squad
Note:
* Platoon leader takes the place of one squad leader in one squad vehicle
* The dismounted squad element consists of 5 personnel. The IFV crew remain with the IFV to provide fire support.
* Unlike the RPG-7D3, the RPG 27/28 and the RPO PDM-A have no dedictated operator
* One squad per platoon carries a SVD sniper rifle
Total Company : 6 Officers 79 Other Ranks - 10 BMD1/2/3 and 1 x BTR-D
Again i welcome any comments or thoughts, I do have one question which i would like some help with though:
" this leaves a space in the BTR-D for upto an additional 4 persons, i was thinking perhaps 2 x 2 man Sniper teams or Forward Artillery/ Forward Air Controller teams ?"
cheers all
Steve
Airborne Infantry Company (IFV)
a) Company HQ -
Company Commander : PM/AKS-74
Deputy Commander : PM/AKS-74
Logistic Officer : PM/AKS-74
1st Sergeant : AKS-74/UBGL
Technician : AKS-74
Medic (sgt): AKS-74
Radio Operator ( from signal platoon): AKS-74
b) HQ Section
Squad Leader - AKS-74
Senior Rifleman - AKS-74/UBGL
Rifleman/Medic (2) - AKS-74
IFV Driver/Mechanic : PM (BMD)
IFV Gunner : AKSU-74 (BMD)
Driver : AKSU-74 (BTR-D)
2x RPG27/28 and 1x RPO PDM-A issued
1 x BMD1/2/3 and 1 x BTR-D
C) Airborne Platoon (3 Number)BMD1/2/3
Platoon Leader : PM/AKS-74
Airborne Infantry Squad (3)
Squad Leader : AKS-74/UBGL
IFV Driver/Mechanic : PM
IFV Gunner : AKSU-74
Senior Rifleman : AKS-74/UBGL
Machine Gunner : RPKS-74 (Replaced with PKP)
Grenadier: RPG-7D3/AKSU-74
Rifleman: AKS-74
1x RPG27/28/1x RPO-PDM-A issued to squad
Note:
* Platoon leader takes the place of one squad leader in one squad vehicle
* The dismounted squad element consists of 5 personnel. The IFV crew remain with the IFV to provide fire support.
* Unlike the RPG-7D3, the RPG 27/28 and the RPO PDM-A have no dedictated operator
* One squad per platoon carries a SVD sniper rifle
Total Company : 6 Officers 79 Other Ranks - 10 BMD1/2/3 and 1 x BTR-D
Again i welcome any comments or thoughts, I do have one question which i would like some help with though:
" this leaves a space in the BTR-D for upto an additional 4 persons, i was thinking perhaps 2 x 2 man Sniper teams or Forward Artillery/ Forward Air Controller teams ?"
cheers all
Steve
GarryB- Posts : 37261
Points : 37775
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
Again i welcome any comments or thoughts, I do have one question which i would like some help with though:
" this leaves a space in the BTR-D for upto an additional 4 persons, i was thinking perhaps 2 x 2 man Sniper teams or Forward Artillery/ Forward Air Controller teams ?"
There is only one HQ section and if we look at it in detail:
b) HQ Section
Squad Leader - AKS-74
Senior Rifleman - AKS-74/UBGL
Rifleman/Medic (2) - AKS-74
IFV Driver/Mechanic : PM (BMD)
IFV Gunner : AKSU-74 (BMD)
Driver : AKSU-74 (BTR-D)
2x RPG27/28 and 1x RPO PDM-A issued
1 x BMD1/2/3 and 1 x BTR-D
So in the section HQ there is one BMD and one BTR-D.
The Squad leader will be the commander of the BMD, plus the driver/mechanic and gunner which leaves 3 other soldiers, two riflemen medics and a senior rifleman. If we assume these three soldiers are in the BMD then it seems the driver of the BTR-D is on his own...
This sounds unlikely and I would suggest that it is probably the case that the BTR-D is a command vehicle and probably has radio operators and tactical screens and plotting boards for displaying tactical data, while the BMD is its muscle protection.
This small HQ unit directs the three platoons below it and relays information down from up high and from the platoon up to command via company HQ.
Not sure how many companies are in a VDV Brigade, but would suspect 3.
steve501- Posts : 34
Points : 64
Join date : 2012-08-03
Age : 53
Location : England
Sorry Garry i didnt explain myself, The Company HQ (7) and HQ Section (7) are a combined unit with a combined strength of 14. I believe a BMD has a crew of 2 and 5 man troop compartment and the BTR-D has a crew of 1 and a 10 man troop compartment, This gives a combined capacity of 18. This leaves a spare capacity of upto 4 additional troops.
cheers
Steve
cheers
Steve
Asf- Posts : 471
Points : 488
Join date : 2014-03-27
I know aboiut necroposting, but I'm really fond of military organisations
Parachute Company (company on BMD IFV):
Company HQ + Command Squad (basically same as before)
one weapon squad (on BTR-D) and 3 parachute platoons with 3 parachute squads each
Changes on a squad level are:
8 man squad now - 2 man with BMP (mechanic-driver and commander-weapons operator) + 2x 3 man fire teams (Squad leader, MG gunner and his assistant + Assistant Squad leader and two riflemen). Squad have disposable granade launchers and RPOs (unknown quantity, basically one per infantrymen except MG gunner and assistant)
Company's weapon squad is kinda like that:
Squad leader+ BTR-D Driver - "Kord" gunner+Assistant gunner - 2x RPG man + Loader
At least two push-to-talk radios per squad and every officer has their own (don't know whats changed due to "ratnik" being tested in VDV).
Company also can be augmented with artillery and air observers, sniper teams from batallion's sniper platoon, MANPADs from AA battalion, AGLs from batallion, additional ATGMs from batallion.
Air Assault Company (on a casual BTR-80) has their own short-range ATGM platoon, don't know about weapon squad (most probably basic organisation is unified, so yes).
It's a bit obscure, here what I could gaver from open sources:Does anyone know if these changes are implemented yet and if so - What is the structure of the Airborne Company now.
Parachute Company (company on BMD IFV):
Company HQ + Command Squad (basically same as before)
one weapon squad (on BTR-D) and 3 parachute platoons with 3 parachute squads each
Changes on a squad level are:
8 man squad now - 2 man with BMP (mechanic-driver and commander-weapons operator) + 2x 3 man fire teams (Squad leader, MG gunner and his assistant + Assistant Squad leader and two riflemen). Squad have disposable granade launchers and RPOs (unknown quantity, basically one per infantrymen except MG gunner and assistant)
Company's weapon squad is kinda like that:
Squad leader+ BTR-D Driver - "Kord" gunner+Assistant gunner - 2x RPG man + Loader
At least two push-to-talk radios per squad and every officer has their own (don't know whats changed due to "ratnik" being tested in VDV).
Company also can be augmented with artillery and air observers, sniper teams from batallion's sniper platoon, MANPADs from AA battalion, AGLs from batallion, additional ATGMs from batallion.
Air Assault Company (on a casual BTR-80) has their own short-range ATGM platoon, don't know about weapon squad (most probably basic organisation is unified, so yes).
As I said, RPG and HMG in squads (1 squad per company), AGLs one platoon per batalion (not like in USMC where every company has a weapon platoon platoon and every battalion has a company).Are the grenade and machine gun squads incorporated as a Weapon Squad in each platoon or a weapon platoon within the company.
Weapon squads (ATGM aquads, MANPAD squads) are on BTR-D (more space, for ammo and equipment), and some BTR-Ds for signal troops ect. All other infantry is on BMDsIf the company are in IFV (BMD 2/3/4)are these weapon squads issued with BMD or BTR-D
There is a battalion sniper platoon now, as I know. It has it's own truck. If a company is augmented with a sniper team, snipers ride in BMDs with other troops (squad BMD's have spare seats for platoon commanders and some occasional personel as command squad BTR-D and BMD do)If the company are in IFV in which transport do the Company Sniper Section travel
Morpheus Eberhardt- Posts : 1925
Points : 2032
Join date : 2013-05-20
Asf wrote:I know aboiut necroposting, but I'm really fond of military organisations
It's a bit obscure, here what I could gaver from open sources:Does anyone know if these changes are implemented yet and if so - What is the structure of the Airborne Company now.
Parachute Company (company on BMD IFV):
Company HQ + Command Squad (basically same as before)
one weapon squad (on BTR-D) and 3 parachute platoons with 3 parachute squads each
Changes on a squad level are:
8 man squad now - 2 man with BMP (mechanic-driver and commander-weapons operator) + 2x 3 man fire teams (Squad leader, MG gunner and his assistant + Assistant Squad leader and two riflemen). Squad have disposable granade launchers and RPOs (unknown quantity, basically one per infantrymen except MG gunner and assistant)
Company's weapon squad is kinda like that:
Squad leader+ BTR-D Driver - "Kord" gunner+Assistant gunner - 2x RPG man + Loader
At least two push-to-talk radios per squad and every officer has their own (don't know whats changed due to "ratnik" being tested in VDV).
Company also can be augmented with artillery and air observers, sniper teams from batallion's sniper platoon, MANPADs from AA battalion, AGLs from batallion, additional ATGMs from batallion.
Air Assault Company (on a casual BTR-80) has their own short-range ATGM platoon, don't know about weapon squad (most probably basic organisation is unified, so yes).
As I said, RPG and HMG in squads (1 squad per company), AGLs one platoon per batalion (not like in USMC where every company has a weapon platoon platoon and every battalion has a company).Are the grenade and machine gun squads incorporated as a Weapon Squad in each platoon or a weapon platoon within the company.
Weapon squads (ATGM aquads, MANPAD squads) are on BTR-D (more space, for ammo and equipment), and some BTR-Ds for signal troops ect. All other infantry is on BMDsIf the company are in IFV (BMD 2/3/4)are these weapon squads issued with BMD or BTR-D
There is a battalion sniper platoon now, as I know. It has it's own truck. If a company is augmented with a sniper team, snipers ride in BMDs with other troops (squad BMD's have spare seats for platoon commanders and some occasional personel as command squad BTR-D and BMD do)If the company are in IFV in which transport do the Company Sniper Section travel
Do you happen to have a reference that would indicate the section size is 8 rather than the previous value of 7? I am, of course, referring to the BMD-based sections.
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