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    Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue May 07, 2013 1:29 pm

    Well its quite easy -actually f-35s can stay around 30km away from the pantcir where the can use stealth so to stay undetected (and even if spotted from time to time it cant touch them anyway) , and lob off cruise missiles in a well coordinated attack.

    How does the F-35 know it is 30km away from Pantsir?
    How does it know whether there is a Pantsir-S1 directly below it for example? How does it know when it is or is not detected?

    The fact of the matter is that the F-35 is not even in service yet and it doesn't even know if it is safe or not...

    In a one on one engagement how many guided weapons can a single F-35 fire at a single Pantsir to try to destroy it?

    Fact is it is limited and overpriced system with no fire and forget ability and lots of blind spots.
    We will see how the morfei very short range system will turn out to be.

    Fire and forget is over rated. It is expensive and generally not very fool proof. Modern DIRCMs can dazzle even the most expensive IIR seeker, but a beam rider, or command guided missile is a much more difficult threat to defend yourself from.

    Also few more things , pantcir missiles drop in speed on average 70m/s/s , internal dead zone of the missiles at must be taken into account of 1,2 km ,and guns cant be used during march .

    No they don't, the second stage has a small sustainer, so the speed loss is not constant. It is very unlikely that targets would be engaged while moving except in an extreme emergency.

    it takes time accelerate and has a drop in speed of 70m/s , so for the average speed i cant take more than 0,9km/s although 1,2km/s is the max.

    1.3km/s is the top speed and it reaches that speed after about 1.0 second, so for the first second it can be considered to have covered 1.3km to the target and the 70m/s/s is an average over 20km, which means it is probably much less inside the first 10km than it is for the second 10km of its 20km range, which makes your numbers wrong.

    but the crew must be very well trained (fast) ,and cant afford a miss.

    Even the Tunguska in the early 1980s had "modes" of engagement from an almost manual mode to fully automatic... in fully automatic the crew would just need to give the system permission to fire with the highest threat target automatically selected and engaged.

    it would take just 2 sec for the cruise missiles to get inside pantcirs dead zone and 6 sec to destroy it.

    I believe you have forgotten the two twin barrel 30mm cannon spitting out 5,000rpm of 30 x 165mm cannon shells that puts the dead in the 2km dead zone around the Pantsir.

    yes its a problem if more then 4-5-6 cruise missiles 1 mill $ a piece can destroy pantcir-s1-s2 worth 15 mill $.

    Those 4-5-6 cruise missiles can also destroy the hangar the F-35 sits in and take out the runway it operates from, or the carrier it operates from.

    and you still claim it to be best in the world by itself

    I can claim it is the best in the world... launch a million cruise missiles at the US and they will simply not be able to stop all of them or even half of them... does that define them as weak? Does that mean they do not have the best military in the world?

    I claim Pantsir-S1 as being the best short range air defence vehicle in the world, your own estimates show it can defend itself from simultaneous attack from 4 cruise missiles from four different directions at once. You can easily prove me wrong simply by telling what the best short range air defence system really is and put it into that scenario and prove it can also survive or even do a better job.

    If you are thinking a system like SEA RAM might do better I think you are drunk because SEA RAM costs an enormous amount of money and has nothing like the range or missile speed of Pantsir so you will find it probably could not defend itself in the exact same scenario you are offering. And what else is there?

    but then you have to bring s-400 buk etc. 4-5 more pvo systems for it to be effective.

    Using the same logic there are no effective SAMs because the big ones are too expensive and small in number to defend themselves from sneaky low flying weapons, while the smaller systems that can deal with low flying weapons lack the range to engage the platforms so they will eventually run out of missiles, which will leave them vulnerable.

    i am talking about pantcir on the move with rest of the army. and yes its turret seems to be very well stabilised , but i still dont have proof it can use its gunns so its missiles only.

    If we are talking about the Pantsir-S1 in the Army then we are talking about the tracked model, which can definitely fire guns and missiles on the move... though it would hardly ever do so... it will fire from short stops.

    pantcir IS advertised against planes helicopters uavs precision munnitions ,cruise missiles ,They advertise like that it not Me. So it better work . nothing is fair in war.

    Of course... buy one Pantsir-s1 vehicle and take on all of NATO... that is their claim... NOT.

    Pantsir-S1 is designed to be cheap and effective against a range of targets. Its missiles have no guidance systems in them they are very cheap and simple... the rocket boosters they use are standard booster rockets used by sounding rockets for over 30 years.

    its not even russian -its french LOL !!!

    Licence produced in Russia. Just like the main gun and armour of the US Abrams tank is a licence produced West German 120mm smooth bore gun, and licence produced British Dorchester armour.

    and its optical system is also very narrow and scanning limited it doesnt have 360 degree coverage.

    Optical systems have a range of "zooms" with magnification levels variable allowing a quick search of a large area and zooming in on a target of interest. Low zoom for scanning for targets and high zoom for acquisition and ID and of course engagement.

    Data from the IAD would allow the vehicles to look in the expected direction targets will appear, but software already exists that can scan a digital video image for "targets". The Shkval-M system of the Ka-50 and Su-25TM were doing that sort of thing in the early 1990s.

    When I get back from work I will attempt a more detailed response, but someone really needs to understand what SHORAD means.

    If you could get 100% defence perfection from any one vehicle you could name your price... 50 billion would not be expensive for such a vehicle that could defeat the west on its own.

    so french short range systems in passive mode are better then the russian.

    Which one? Passive mode is only used when necessary. Most of the time one vehicle in the battery will use its radars to detect threats and pass data to the other vehicles in the battery. The location of one vehicle revealled gives accurate precise target information to all the other vehicles in the group and the IADs network. Any attempt to attack that single vehicle means that the vehicle can defend itself and the other 5 vehicles in the battery can also defend it.
    Viktor
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    Post  Viktor Tue May 07, 2013 2:45 pm

    Rpg type 7v wrote:you cant compare price of panttcirs with patriot , its a totally different thing , you have to compare pantcir with other short range airdefence systems , and patriot with s-300pmu or other... to each its own.

    Yes you are right. Price of the Patriot can only be compared to the price of the Death Star. Very Happy

    Rpg type 7v wrote:its funny because french wont let you have ,even licence produce ,their best equipment for sure....

    its funny because french already gave them their best and licence production and as a matter of fact they are together now in the

    business of development of the next generation.


    Rpg type 7v wrote:so french air defense systems crotale etc. for certain have better quality electro-optical-infrared aperture then pantcir which puts them ahead of it!

    It has much less range than the one mounted on the Pancir-S1. So what is it?


    Rpg type 7v wrote:so french short range systems in passive mode are better then the russian.

    So they are not better in the passive mode than the Russians. Now what?


    Rpg type 7v wrote: (i dont want to discuss radars for now.)

    Of course you don`t want to

    - answer questions
    - reply to other people
    - talk about radar system .... and the list will go on


    Let me ask you something. Why are you trolling?

    medo
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    Post  medo Tue May 07, 2013 5:06 pm

    its funny because french wont let you have ,even licence produce ,their best equipment for sure....
    so french air defense systems crotale etc. for certain have better quality electro-optical-infrared aperture then pantcir which puts them ahead of it!
    so french short range systems in passive mode are better then the russian.

    Thermal imager is only one element in passive mode and is equal in capabilities as the one in Crotale-NG. French Crotale-NG is not better in passive mode than Pantsir, because Pantsir have longer range and higher speed for missiles plus guns and very short reaction time.
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    Post  Rpg type 7v Tue May 07, 2013 7:28 pm

    can pantcir destroy its target(s) in completely passive mode without turning on its radar?
    that would be a good capability to have!




    (no it cant ,i doesnt have fire and forget missiles)


    Last edited by Rpg type 7v on Tue May 07, 2013 7:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Rpg type 7v Tue May 07, 2013 7:33 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Well its quite easy -actually f-35s can stay around 30km away from the pantcir where the can use stealth so to stay undetected (and even if spotted from time to time it cant touch them anyway) , and lob off cruise missiles in a well coordinated attack.

    How does the F-35 know it is 30km away from Pantsir?
    How does it know whether there is a Pantsir-S1 directly below it for example? How does it know when it is or is not detected?

    The fact of the matter is that the F-35 is not even in service yet and it doesn't even know if it is safe or not...

    In a one on one engagement how many guided weapons can a single F-35 fire at a single Pantsir to try to destroy it?
    I already answered this , because the Pancir search radar is like illuminating and f-35 with less then 0,1m2 RCS is undetectable to it even at 20km... it also picks up emissions even earlier at 30-40-50 km and triangulates using its advanced RWR .
    Then EODAS can zoom in on the approximate area and pinpoint the pantcir truck.
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    Post  Viktor Tue May 07, 2013 7:37 pm

    Rpg type 7v wrote:can pantcir destroy its target(s) in completely passive mode without turning on its radar? that would be a good capability to have!
    (no it cant ,i doesnt have fire and forget missiles)

    Yes it can. Using its optical channel.

    When using fire and forget missiles you still need you radar (search and fire) turned on.
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    Post  Rpg type 7v Tue May 07, 2013 7:40 pm

    Viktor wrote:
    - answer questions
    - reply to other people
    - talk about radar system .... and the list will go on


    Let me ask you something. Why are you trolling?


    i can talk about it later we can touch that subject. besides pesa is nothing special for such an overpriced severly lacking system. Infact pantcir has had a very troubled developmental path with several iterations untill it became what is it today. Even Russians make mistakes and have a few bastard children and dead end systems !

    But still there is allot of things that need to improve (which would increase already bloated price tag)... why you defend something even you dont belive in is beyond me. the moment you start with personal insults you are the one losing the argument you are the defeated side. i talked about radars before we can continue after the analysys of thermal imagery.

    I would like a link to your claim french and russian teams are working joint venture on next generation of thermal imagers. Tnx.


    Last edited by Rpg type 7v on Tue May 07, 2013 7:43 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Post  Rpg type 7v Tue May 07, 2013 7:41 pm

    Viktor wrote:
    Rpg type 7v wrote:can pantcir destroy its target(s) in completely passive mode without turning on its radar? that would be a good capability to have!
    (no it cant ,i doesnt have fire and forget missiles)

    Yes it can. Using its optical channel.

    When using fire and forget missiles you still need you radar (search and fire) turned on.

    so it cant Wink
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Tue May 07, 2013 8:02 pm

    Rpg type 7v wrote:you cant compare price of panttcirs with patriot , its a totally different thing , you have to compare pantcir with other short range airdefence systems , and patriot with s-300pmu or other... to each its own.
    its funny because french wont let you have ,even licence produce ,their best equipment for sure....
    so french air defense systems crotale etc. for certain have better quality electro-optical-infrared aperture then pantcir which puts them ahead of it!
    so french short range systems in passive mode are better then the russian.
    (i dont want to discuss radars for now.)

    You are talking out of your ass.

    Once again, go educate yourself on other SHORAD systems.
    Seriously, this is getting really really stupid.


    Last edited by TR1 on Tue May 07, 2013 8:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  TR1 Tue May 07, 2013 8:04 pm

    Rpg type 7v wrote:can pantcir destroy its target(s) in completely passive mode without turning on its radar?
    that would be a good capability to have!




    (no it cant ,i doesnt have fire and forget missiles)

    You understand the only weapons that can do that are heat homers, right?

    Fire and forget missiles need to lock on to a target as well. If they have an active-seeker, on a missile the size of Pantsir's, their range would be laughable.
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Tue May 07, 2013 8:07 pm

    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    Well its quite easy -actually f-35s can stay around 30km away from the pantcir where the can use stealth so to stay undetected (and even if spotted from time to time it cant touch them anyway) , and lob off cruise missiles in a well coordinated attack.

    How does the F-35 know it is 30km away from Pantsir?
    How does it know whether there is a Pantsir-S1 directly below it for example? How does it know when it is or is not detected?

    The fact of the matter is that the F-35 is not even in service yet and it doesn't even know if it is safe or not...

    In a one on one engagement how many guided weapons can a single F-35 fire at a single Pantsir to try to destroy it?
    I already answered this , because the Pancir search radar is like illuminating and f-35 with less then 0,1m2 RCS is undetectable to it even at 20km... it also picks up emissions even earlier at 30-40-50 km and triangulates using its advanced RWR .
    Then EODAS can zoom in on the approximate area and pinpoint the pantcir truck.
    How is this relevant?
    Woo gave you the idea the point of the Pantsir is supposed to deny airspace for the F-35?
    And what fairy tales do you live in that the EOADS knows exactly where to scan for a small truck and lock on to it dozens of kilometers away with impunity? You understand how unlikely such a scenario is?

    Good grief...
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    Post  Rpg type 7v Tue May 07, 2013 8:12 pm

    Garry:
    -No they don't, the second stage has a small sustainer, so the speed loss is not constant. It is very unlikely that targets would be engaged while moving except in an extreme emergency.

    -1.3km/s is the top speed and it reaches that speed after about 1.0 second, so for the first second it can be considered to have covered 1.3km to the target and the 70m/s/s is an average over 20km, which means it is probably much less inside the first 10km than it is for the second 10km of its 20km range, which makes your numbers wrong.

    -------------------
    -I thnik you are wrong second stage is just explosives actuators proxy fuses and tail beacon. no sustainer !

    -Drop off in speed is actually highest at 1,2 km/s separation, because of the higher drag you know ,then latter when the speed of the second stage drops.

    -garry you make 2 very big mistakes!
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    Post  Rpg type 7v Tue May 07, 2013 8:14 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    Well its quite easy -actually f-35s can stay around 30km away from the pantcir where the can use stealth so to stay undetected (and even if spotted from time to time it cant touch them anyway) , and lob off cruise missiles in a well coordinated attack.

    How does the F-35 know it is 30km away from Pantsir?
    How does it know whether there is a Pantsir-S1 directly below it for example? How does it know when it is or is not detected?

    The fact of the matter is that the F-35 is not even in service yet and it doesn't even know if it is safe or not...

    In a one on one engagement how many guided weapons can a single F-35 fire at a single Pantsir to try to destroy it?
    I already answered this , because the Pancir search radar is like illuminating and f-35 with less then 0,1m2 RCS is undetectable to it even at 20km... it also picks up emissions even earlier at 30-40-50 km and triangulates using its advanced RWR .
    Then EODAS can zoom in on the approximate area and pinpoint the pantcir truck.
    How is this relevant?
    Woo gave you the idea the point of the Pantsir is supposed to deny airspace for the F-35?
    And what fairy tales do you live in that the EOADS knows exactly where to scan for a small truck and lock on to it dozens of kilometers away with impunity? You understand how unlikely such a scenario is?

    Good grief...

    Thats the whole point of SAM.
    Unlikely as it might be it is still possible.
    People die because of flawed systems.


    Last edited by Rpg type 7v on Tue May 07, 2013 8:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  TR1 Tue May 07, 2013 8:16 pm

    Every source points to a sustainer engine in the 2nd stage.
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    Post  Rpg type 7v Tue May 07, 2013 8:17 pm

    Really ??? Then give me your sources !
    Second stage sustainer rocket engine. plz.
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    Post  TR1 Tue May 07, 2013 8:18 pm

    "The missile requirement led to the unusual two stage 9M311 design, in which the first stage boosted the round to 900 m/s at burnout, the sustainer in the terminal stage burning to impact and maintaining a 600 m/s velocity."

    That's for Tunguska. Sources for Pantsir seem to vary.
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    Post  Rpg type 7v Tue May 07, 2013 8:19 pm

    9m311 is not the missile on pantcir .
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    Post  TR1 Tue May 07, 2013 8:20 pm

    Rpg type 7v wrote:9m311 is not the missile on pantcir .

    But it is a shorter-ranged predecessor.
    Presumably the Pantsir's missiles takes on a more robust method of achieving its increased range.
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    Post  TR1 Tue May 07, 2013 8:22 pm



    Thats the whole point of SAM.
    Unlikely as it might be it is still possible.
    People die because of flawed systems.


    I don't think you understand what SHORAD means, and the role of Pantsir, at all, if you think it is supposed to deny airspace to the F-35.
    By this logic, any short range system is pointless.
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    Post  Rpg type 7v Tue May 07, 2013 8:23 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    I believe you have forgotten the two twin barrel 30mm cannon spitting out 5,000rpm of 30 x 165mm cannon shells that puts the dead in the 2km dead zone around the Pantsir.
    .
    i belive even its guns are primitive and quite mediocre compared to todays modern a-a gunns. the 30mm pantcir is using is the same as gunns 30 years ago ,they dont even evolve in some mechanical or constructional way
    , 30mm it looks quite pathetic, compared to this :
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0_XUS0Sfpg&playnext=1&list=PL3qYiMswhauAISZLwUQFxUNDiAGfMlHkZ
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    Post  Rpg type 7v Tue May 07, 2013 8:24 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    Rpg type 7v wrote:9m311 is not the missile on pantcir .

    But it is a shorter-ranged predecessor.
    Presumably the Pantsir's missiles takes on a more robust method of achieving its increased range.
    big fat extreme fast burning booster and thin slim lightweight second stage. but no sustainer there . well this is quite an uninformed crowd here....
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    Post  TR1 Tue May 07, 2013 8:26 pm

    Funny how you fail to respond to many of the points brought up against you.

    Still you fail to understand the very point of SHORAD. Very amusing.

    Please write to all the nations that have purchased this world-class system, and tell them you know its weaknesses Sad
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    Post  TR1 Tue May 07, 2013 8:27 pm

    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    I believe you have forgotten the two twin barrel 30mm cannon spitting out 5,000rpm of 30 x 165mm cannon shells that puts the dead in the 2km dead zone around the Pantsir.
    .
    i belive even its guns are primitive and quite mediocre compared to todays modern a-a gunns. the 30mm pantcir is using is the same as gunns 30 years ago ,they dont even evolve in some mechanical or constructional way
    , 30mm it looks quite pathetic, compared to this :
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0_XUS0Sfpg&playnext=1&list=PL3qYiMswhauAISZLwUQFxUNDiAGfMlHkZ

    LOL! You are a funny guy.

    That system requires at least 4-5 seperate gun modules, and radar and tracking modules, all terrible immobile, to achieve any sort of reliable kill ratios.
    It is archaic to put lightly.

    ANd you compare that to one Pantsir truck?!?!

    LMAO!

    http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/bmpd/38024980/402605/402605_600.jpg

    Very well protected, mobile, and hard to find and destroy system I am sure.
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    Post  medo Tue May 07, 2013 9:04 pm

    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    I believe you have forgotten the two twin barrel 30mm cannon spitting out 5,000rpm of 30 x 165mm cannon shells that puts the dead in the 2km dead zone around the Pantsir.
    .
    i belive even its guns are primitive and quite mediocre compared to todays modern a-a gunns. the 30mm pantcir is using is the same as gunns 30 years ago ,they dont even evolve in some mechanical or constructional way
    , 30mm it looks quite pathetic, compared to this :
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0_XUS0Sfpg&playnext=1&list=PL3qYiMswhauAISZLwUQFxUNDiAGfMlHkZ

    Iran have better. Wink

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdsAhQjmol8
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    Post  TR1 Tue May 07, 2013 9:15 pm

    What's even funnier is that 35mm used on MANTIS is NOT brand new, and is an Oerlikon design dating back many decades.
    So how exactly is Pantsir's 30mm cannons pathetic?
    Because they are smaller? Well then, I guess Medo is right, and Iran has one better than anyone Smile.

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