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    Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Viktor
    Viktor


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    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 12 Empty Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Viktor Tue May 07, 2013 9:45 pm

    Rpg type 7v wrote:I already answered this , because the Pancir search radar is like illuminating and f-35 with less then 0,1m2 RCS is undetectable to it even at 20km... it also picks up emissions even earlier at 30-40-50 km and triangulates using its advanced RWR .
    Then EODAS can zoom in on the approximate area and pinpoint the pantcir truck.

    1. if you intend to fly around with F-35 looking for some Pancir-S1 than I guess F-35 will be dead before it finds anything

    2. same triangulation method can be used to find F-35 and at point when F-35 enters Pancir-S1 engagement envelope give order to shoot it

    down. This is no problem.

    3. F-35 has really small internal weapon bay where it does not carry no where near enough weaponry to penetrate even a single Pancir-S1.

    Its missiles/bombs would get shoot down and than F-35 itself.

    4. Pancir-S1 can use natural hideout or camouflage nets to conceal its presence and work in passive mode or even on active

    5. F-35 can catch false decoy radar emissions and fall in the Pancir-S1 trap

    6. etc etc etc

    Rpg type 7v wrote:i can talk about it later

    Like with everything else.

    Rpg type 7v wrote:we can touch that subject. besides pesa is nothing special for such an overpriced severly lacking system. Infact pantcir has had a very troubled developmental path with several iterations untill it became what is it today

    Provide links where it says it is lacking or flawed or even overpriced.

    Rpg type 7v wrote:it became what is it today

    And what is PANCIR-S1 today?

    Rpg type 7v wrote:But still there is allot of things that need to improve (which would increase already bloated price tag)... why you defend something even you dont belive in is beyond me.

    What needs improving?

    Rpg type 7v wrote:the moment you start with personal insults you are the one losing the argument you are the defeated side.

    Arguments? This is what your level of conversation looks like.

    Even Russians make mistakes and have a few bastard children and dead end systems !

    Rpg type 7v wrote:so it cant Wink

    No radar is needed to fire missiles with optical guidance channel. Even a version of Pancir-S1 with single optical channel

    was made. Now you did not know that?

    Well to draw to an end this big fail of yours here you go.

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 12 34znad2

    Rpg type 7v wrote:Thats the whole point of SAM.
    Unlikely as it might be it is still possible.
    People die because of flawed systems.

    That point is something vastly beyond your understanding. The primary mission of Pancir-S1 is to work with other air defense assets

    and with radar coverage and aviation form a protective layer of air defense systems.

    That includes vast amounts of different systems all working together under control of command post.

    Of course ability to work alone, to repel areal attacks and ground even and to shoot multiple missiles at multiple targets

    and to make nightmares to any western planes planing to invade a country armed with the Pancir-S1 is just one of its many pluses.

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 12 1zejfpk

    Rpg type 7v wrote:the 30mm pantcir is using is the same as gunns 30 years ago

    Not the same gun. Its vastly modernized with some hi-end solutions being implemented on a movingplatform.







    Here is a missile in cross section - I dont read Russian but maybe TR1 might help about identification with the engine.

    And still this is not the same missile Russians are using.

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 12 20fq7ow


    Rpg type 7v wrote:Also few more things , pantcir missiles drop in speed on average 70m/s/s ,

    Nope, you are wrong as usual - its 40m/sec



    So we are here talking about by far the most capable air defense system in the world and the cheapest one too.
    GarryB
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    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 12 Empty Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB Wed May 08, 2013 2:35 am

    I already answered this , because the Pancir search radar is like illuminating and f-35 with less then 0,1m2 RCS is undetectable to it even at 20km... it also picks up emissions even earlier at 30-40-50 km and triangulates using its advanced RWR .
    Then EODAS can zoom in on the approximate area and pinpoint the pantcir truck.

    OK... lets assume one Pantsir vehicle does turn its radar on to scan for targets and is detected by the F-35... what exactly can that F-35 do about it? Any weapon it might launch against the Pantsir-S1 can be shot down. Any weapon launch will confirm its presence and general location. Will all the air defence systems in this country be turned off too? What if none of the Pantsirs in the country turn on their radar and just scan optically for targets, or have mobile radar vehicles scanning and then moving every 2 minutes with a Pantsir regiment protecting them?

    Even Russians make mistakes and have a few bastard children and dead end systems !

    Early models were far less capable than Pantsir-S1, but were accepted by the Russian Army, which was happy with its performance.

    UAE however was not and they spent the extra money for all new electronics and systems and new missiles and boosters and the new system Pantsir-S1 is the result.

    But still there is allot of things that need to improve (which would increase already bloated price tag)... why you defend something even you dont belive in is beyond me.

    You keep talking about things that need improvement but you never actually mention them.

    Perhaps it would be easier to discuss your objections if you actually tell us what they are.

    so it cant

    The purpose of the optical system is to allow the vehicle to continue to engage targets under heavy jamming or SEAD attack. The search radar is turned off and the topical system is used to track both the missile and the target. The PESA tracking radar acts like a datalink to send guidance commands to the missile which is tracked optically, so the command beam will be pencil thin with almost non existent sidelobes... and they will not be continuous beams... just course corrections when needed. The chance of directional location of the vehicle at extended range is poor because it is in mmw radar frequency which is notoriously short ranged as it is absorbed by moisture in the atmosphere. You might detect faint emissions at 30km but only if the beam was directed directly at your aircraft... a few degrees either side and you would detect nothing.

    Much like the F-16 that destroyed that Patriot battery... the narrow beams meant it could only launch a HARM because the battery had his aircraft locked with a continuous beam... very thin though it was his ARM was able to fly down the beam all the way to the antenna.

    Wouldn't happen with the pantsir-S1 as that beam is not continuous.

    You understand the only weapons that can do that are heat homers, right?

    Fire and forget missiles need to lock on to a target as well. If they have an active-seeker, on a missile the size of Pantsir's, their range would be laughable.

    To get true fire and forget you would need either IIR seeker, an IR seeker, or an ARH radar seeker... the IR seeker is not that reliable and IIR and ARH seekers are enormously expensive to put into something that will explode when used properly.

    -I thnik you are wrong second stage is just explosives actuators proxy fuses and tail beacon. no sustainer !

    The second stage weighs 74kgs, of which 20kgs is the warhead... use a bit of common sense. Hint... the R-73 has proximity fuses and actuators and 11kgs of explosives and it weighs 105kgs and has a launch range of 45kms against head on targets. The R-73 also has an IR seeker, which the SA-22 does not.

    -garry you make 2 very big mistakes!

    The only mistake I have seen is that burnout of the booster section happens after 2.4 seconds of flight and top speed is 1300m/s.

    Look at this page:

    http://kbptula.ru/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=56&Itemid=410&lang=en

    and click on the link to the right under System Components in the combat assets section there is a link called surface to air missile, which opens up a small window.

    In that window it clearly states that a time-2.4 the missiles max velocity is 1,300m/s.

    Then it says "short ballistic delay during no-booster flight (40 m/s for 1 km of track);"

    In other words when the booster burns out the reduction in flight speed over distance... ie drag, is 40m/s for 1km of flight.

    Thats the whole point of SAM.
    Unlikely as it might be it is still possible.
    People die because of flawed systems.

    Really? So Stinger and Igla are pointless?

    Different SAMS have different roles. The fact that an Igla will likely never kill an F-35... unless they try to replace the A-10 with some sort of A-35, does not make it a failure.

    Pantsir is not supposed to be shooting down F-35s either... its primary role is either to defend larger SAMs like S-400... that will shoot down F-35s, from any guided weapon that might be directed at the S-400. It has the height 15km and range 20km to perform some of the missions previously only medium range SAMs could perform, but it is still a SHORAD.

    Judging it negatively because it can't replace all SAMs... well you clearly don't understand its role... it will never work alone in Russia... in some third country against another countries air force that is not NATO it might be a jack of all trades, but that is not what it was designed for.

    Really ??? Then give me your sources !
    Second stage sustainer rocket engine. plz.

    On the above page average speed at 18km is 700m/s, and a speed loss of 40m/s per kms suggests either they have a physics breakthrough, or a sustainer motor to overcome most of the effects of drag.

    9m311 is not the missile on pantcir .

    No. It is the great grandfather of the current missile. But as not terminal guidance system has been added do you think they took out that sustainer rocket motor and replaced it with ballast?

    i belive even its guns are primitive and quite mediocre compared to todays modern a-a gunns. the 30mm pantcir is using is the same as gunns 30 years ago ,they dont even evolve in some mechanical or constructional way

    Two twin barrel guns that offer the same rate of fire as the six barrel gatling guns of the AK-630, but with rigid barrels offering superior accuracy and built in liquid evapouration cooling... yeah they were mounted on the ark, but Noah removed them because they were rubbish.



    WOW... that was crap. A clip fed gun system presumably whose muzzle blast is so horrendous that the optics and radar has to be mounted on a completely separate platform (added cost of needing extra vehicles and single point of failure where the optics and radar vehicle gets smoked by an ARM then the gun vehicles become useless). Looking at the shells I would say they were the same 35mm rounds they have been using for decades but in a gatling gun that does not look all that impressive in terms of rate of fire... presumably because it seems to be clip fed rather than belt fed.

    The targets were pathetically close and all subsonic... Pantsir can engage supersonic targets flying at up to 1000m/s as low as 2 metres off the water and up to 15km up and 18km distant with guns and missiles.

    The whole idea of Tunguska and Pantsir is to reduce costs by combining the huge advantages of guns and missiles... they compliment each other, while having all the best optics and radars on one vehicle.

    Tunguska is not cheap, but it is cheaper than an SA-13 vehicle AND a Shilka, yet it is much more capable... the 30mm guns reach to 4km compared with 2.5km for 23mm shilka, and the missiles reach 8 and then 10 and then 12 and now 20km compared with 5km for SA-13.

    The amusing thing is that this German system has a network where the sensors are separate from the weapon platform... Pantsir can do that too and can remain radar and radio silent and receive target data and engage targets passively.

    The video ends with the claim of 1,000 shots per minute... EACH twin barrel 2A38M gun on the Pantsir-S1 and Tunguska fires 2,500 rpm, with two guns that is 5 times higher rate of fire, which means bursts can be much shorter and arrive on target in a cluster like a shotgun blast rather than a stream of bullets... there is a reason shotguns are used for shooting small fast targets.


    The huge irony of course is that the new HERMES system is unified in design with the SS-22, and it will have MMW radar and IIR as well as SALH and Glonass guided versions, which means.... in theory they could use an IIR guided or MMW radar guided missile against air targets (like Vikhr and ATAKA can be used against aircraft too), but it is very unlikely they would do such a thing because terminal guidance seekers make the missiles much more expensive.

    It is a bit like buying a really cheap printer and finding out the ink costs $200 for each colour so that $100 printer costs $800 dollars to replace all the ink... (black and three primary colours).

    If Pantsir was designed by our friend it would be the ultimate western weapon... amazing on paper but too expensive to actually use or train with. Rolling Eyes
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    Hachimoto


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    Post  Hachimoto Wed May 08, 2013 10:10 am

    i always loved this system and this discussion was an amazing summary for me Very Happy

    anyway i found an interesting system in the German inventory it is the 1A2 Gepard anti-aircraft how it's stand against the Pantsir-S1? if anyone already heard about it
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed May 08, 2013 11:02 am

    The Gepard is a good vehicle that is not cheap.

    It makes up for its low rate of fire (500rpm per gun) by using rather powerful ammo... it is sort of an intermediate step between a 30mm gun and a 57mm gun.

    The problem is that it is actually older than the Tunguska and it is an expensive luxury in the west that tends to prefer air power to deal with enemy air power rather than letting the army deal with enemy air power.

    The Pantsir-s1 combines powerful enough guns with a high rate of fire and plenty of onboard ready to fire ammo (1,400 rounds) with missiles able to reach much further and higher than any air defence gun.

    Simply put guns are useful as a last line, they are cheap and multipurpose and can be used for warning shots or shots at ground targets. They do however lack range and altitude. Missiles are more expensive but have a much higher kill probability and reach further, higher and faster than shells.

    Guns and missiles compliment each other and by putting them on the same vehicle you reduce costs. The SA-13 and Shilka were useful in their own right, but the Tunguska had more ready to fire missiles, of longer range, and much more powerful cannon ammo at a slightly higher rate of fire from two guns instead of four.

    Pantsir-S1 takes it further with up to 12 ready to fire missiles with double the range of Tunguskas missiles and the same guns.

    The secret is to spend money on the vehicle, not the missiles.

    Javelin has thermal imagers in its missiles, but because they go boom they aren't high tech best of the best cameras because they only get used for less than a minute and then they are destroyed.

    The thermals in the Pantsir-S1 are state of the art, while the missiles have no terminal guidance seekers at all... they are just dumb command guided missiles like TOW or HOT that are cheap and easy to make... the result is a capable system that is cheap to use, so you can buy enormous stocks of missiles fairly cheaply and actually use them in peace time and war.

    They will sell like hot cakes.

    When the air launched version is available... called HERMES, it will be an even more popular system.
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    eridan


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    Post  eridan Wed May 08, 2013 11:33 am

    That cutout of the upper stage shows no rocket motor whatsoever. all the subcomponents shown behind the warhead have nothing to do with motor.

    medo
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    Post  medo Wed May 08, 2013 4:32 pm

    Hachimoto wrote:i always loved this system and this discussion was an amazing summary for me Very Happy

    anyway i found an interesting system in the German inventory it is the 1A2 Gepard anti-aircraft how it's stand against the Pantsir-S1? if anyone already heard about it

    Gepard is excellent system, well, it's German technology, but now become obsolete. It is comparable with Tunguska-M1 (without missiles), because they are similar (data link, day time optics, search radar, tracking radar, ballistic computer). In NATO Gepards are now only in use in Romania, while Belgia, Netherland and Germany retire them and sell them (Jordan, Brazil). Gepard have one minus, that is relatively small load of ammo and is difficult to reload (need time).

    Pantsir is a generation more modern, with newer computers and radars, which enable it to engage far smaller targets, so it is more comparable in this capabilities with Mantis (C-RAM).
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    Rpg type 7v


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    Post  Rpg type 7v Wed May 08, 2013 4:43 pm

    ofcourse its older the russians actually copied gepard and superior german technology and built their own version (chinese style Wink )
    well gary is wrong on many points -again...
    i dont have time now to correct his and others so many mistakes ...
    medo
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    Post  medo Wed May 08, 2013 8:50 pm

    Rpg type 7v wrote:ofcourse its older the russians actually copied gepard and superior german technology and built their own version (chinese style Wink )
    well gary is wrong on many points -again...
    i dont have time now to correct his and others so many mistakes ...

    USSR have ZSU-23-4 earlier than Gepard was build and Osa is also older than Roland. It's true, that Tunguska and Gepard looks similar outside, but USSR have their own experiences and technology to develop it.
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Wed May 08, 2013 10:04 pm

    Rpg type 7v wrote:ofcourse its older the russians actually copied gepard and superior german technology and built their own version (chinese style Wink )
    well gary is wrong on many points -again...
    i dont have time now to correct his and others so many mistakes ...

    Utter bullocks.

    This is becoming comedic.

    Please, do prove how Russia copied Gepard. The Tunguska looks nothing like Gepard lol.
    You know it did not invent self propelled AA guns? right?!?!

    Gepard copied Shilka!!11!!!11111 Or ZSU-57.
    Nice logic hmm.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu May 09, 2013 2:17 am

    ofcourse its older the russians actually copied gepard and superior german technology and built their own version (chinese style Wink )

    Form follows function.

    The Tunguska looks like the Gepard because both use very powerful twin guns with a separate search and tracking radar system.

    Guns are mounted on the sides of the turret to keep them separated and to move the muzzle blast away from the front mounted tracking radar... much the same as the Hind F has muzzle mounted flash hiders to direct the muzzle blast away from the gunners position that is near the muzzle.

    In many ways the success of the ZSU-23-4 created the German requirement for the Gepard, but they made the same mistakes the Soviets had made with the ZSU-57-2. Even with radar the rate of fire of the Gepard is too low to have a good kill probability against targets that are manouvering... even in the Mantis video you provided the target flew straight and level.

    The only effective use of heavier guns is when the shells they fire are guided... like the new 57mm shells the Russians are working on.

    Then rate of fire is not important as any manouver an air target performs will make all previously fired rounds miss... except for guided ones. With unguided ammo the secret is not high accuracy, but volume... you need to fill the airspace around where the target might be when the rounds arrive... the 35mm gun does not fire fast enough and having looked at the video again they are the same single barrel 35mm guns of the Gepard... I thought they might have been a new gatling gun, perhaps even with a belt feed, but it is the old clip loaded 35mm guns of the Gepard in new turrets... the Russian equivalent would be to fit a single 23mm cannon in four turrets on four vehicles and call it a 21st century system...

    The Soviets and Russians have learned from their own designs... 57mm ZSU-57-2 had powerful long ranged ammo but without radar direction it was less effective than towed models of the same weapon that could be cued by radar. The solution was smaller calibre and higher rate of fire, so they went for the Shilka with high rate of fire 23mm cannon using four cannons each with a firing rate of 1,000rpm, plus water cooling to allow such a rate to be achieved. Very effective system but over time was found to lack range as helos could hover outside its effective range and launch ATGMs and defeat it. Also the radar and sensors on the Shilka were not cheap, though they improved performance dramatically over just optical aiming, and would likely improve SAM based SA-9 and SA-13 vehicles that operated together with the shilka.

    The solution was missiles that outranged ATGMs... which means longer range radar and seriously much better optics, which is not cheap, but such sensors would also be useful on the gun based vehicle so they combined the missile and gun vehicle... missiles didn't replace guns and guns didn't replace missiles... they are both useful and complimented each other in service... the guns are cheap and effective from zero to 4km... and can be used against a range of targets including ground targets and even for warning shots.
    The missiles protected the vehicles from a range of threats later including ATGMs and ARMs of a range of types...

    It seems the Germans didn't understand and went for a clip fed gun system of larger calibre with a lower rate of fire than the 30mm gun on a BMP-2, it doesn't matter how accurate your tracking of the target is or even if you are tracking where your shells go, if the target is manouvering then you will miss... more powerful ammo is more expensive even when it misses.

    Would be a very useful vehicle somewhere like Afghanistan... rip out the electronics for the radars and just fill the turret with more ammo.
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    Post  medo Thu May 09, 2013 4:55 pm

    Rpg type 7v wrote:ofcourse its older the russians actually copied gepard and superior german technology and built their own version (chinese style Wink )
    well gary is wrong on many points -again...
    i dont have time now to correct his and others so many mistakes ...

    To be honest, Soviet equivalent to Gepard was this ZSU-37-2 Enisei, build and tested in late fifties and early sixties, but USSR didn't accept them in service.

    http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-401.html
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    Post  Rpg type 7v Thu May 09, 2013 5:21 pm

    hey why am i getting negative comments and reputation ?
    the topic is pantsyrs shortcomings defined and i am answering to it.
    well gepard was designed in 60s and fielded in 70s , tunguska is 70s design and 80s production... gepard is the father of tunguska its obvious just by looking at it ,and in configuration -aim radar on center+ 2 gunns on the sides + search radar on the top and rear -so almost everything, but the russians added some missiles which is typical for their thinking.
    but although older gepard has much better gunns!!! of
    35mm caliber and 1,4km/s projectile speed.
    pantcir has 30mm caliber and projectile speed <1km/s which is a huge difference and a big minus for tunguska and pantcir that is a big difference in flight time and accuracy!!

    medo wrote:
    Rpg type 7v wrote:ofcourse its older the russians actually copied gepard and superior german technology and built their own version (chinese style Wink )
    well gary is wrong on many points -again...
    i dont have time now to correct his and others so many mistakes ...

    To be honest, Soviet equivalent to Gepard was this ZSU-37-2 Enisei, build and tested in late fifties and early sixties, but USSR didn't accept them in service.

    http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-401.html

    enisei was a failed configuration and a failed project ,the russians had quite a few failed short range air defence systems , so the russians eventually copied german design ! (and developed an inferior system with 10 years lag).
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    Post  Rpg type 7v Thu May 09, 2013 6:00 pm

    Viktor wrote:

    1. if you intend to fly around with F-35 looking for some Pancir-S1 than I guess F-35 will be dead before it finds anything
    Nope , by definition ,air defence must have its search radars on to be effective and f-35 will be hard to detect for pantsyr.
    Viktor wrote:
    2. same triangulation method can be used to find F-35 and at point when F-35 enters Pancir-S1 engagement envelope give order to shoot it down. This is no problem.
    how will pantsyr triangulate an f-35 please? this is nonsense.
    Viktor wrote:
    3. F-35 has really small internal weapon bay where it does not carry no where near enough weaponry to penetrate even a single Pancir-S1.Its missiles/bombs would get shoot down and than F-35 itself.
    Is this a joke, i has 2 big bays for a-g weapons 3 per bay to saturate pantsyr.
    It depends on the crew of pantcir if the missiles will be destroyed ,but f-35 itself is untouchable unless its pilot is idiot and blunders completely ,it will have full power of aiming radar on him because its stealth and its hard to track so it will have some time to maneuver and get out of its kill zone 15-18km.

    Viktor wrote:
    4. Pancir-S1 can use natural hideout or camouflage nets to conceal its presence and work in passive mode or even on active
    Its very limited in passive mode very narrow vision and imported thermal system whis is not even near the best in the world ,if it goes active its bye bye ...
    Viktor wrote:
    5. F-35 can catch false decoy radar emissions and fall in the Pancir-S1 trap

    Its an option ,it could also spend all its missiles on towed decoys of f-35...

    6. etc etc etc
    ????

    Viktor wrote:
    Like with everything else.
    Its not easy for me to debate vs 5 non-objective guys .
    Viktor wrote:
    Provide links where it says it is lacking or flawed or even overpriced.
    I have proved my point. There is the report on the very first page of this topic Shocked
    Viktor wrote:
    -And what is PANCIR-S1 today?
    -Nothing special ,still a work in progress...
    Viktor wrote:
    What needs improving?
    Jesus i repeat myself over and over , fire & forget capability / hiting targets that try to hide bellow horizon , lower price , aesa constant search of all sectors in lpi mode / aim & guiding capability in all direction simultaniously ,better guns....etc.
    Viktor wrote:
    -No radar is needed to fire missiles with optical guidance channel. Even a version of Pancir-S1 with single optical channel was made. Now you did not know that?

    Well to draw to an end this big fail of yours here you go.
    It does have to have send radio commands towards the missile and wide field of view so the missile will catch its signals so it will have wide lobes ,signal can be weak as the missile is near and get narrower and stronger the further its away but beam is in the direction of the target so it will be detectable... Optical system can trace just 1 missile towards 1 target.

    Viktor wrote:
    That point is something vastly beyond your understanding. The primary mission of Pancir-S1 is to work with other air defense assets
    and with radar coverage and aviation form a protective layer of air defense systems.
    That includes vast amounts of different systems all working together under control of command post.
    If you need to spend that much money on patcyr you wont have much left for other air defence SAMs
    Viktor wrote:
    Of course ability to work alone, to repel areal attacks and ground even and to shoot multiple missiles at multiple targets
    and to make nightmares to any western planes planing to invade a country armed with the Pancir-S1 is just one of its many pluses.
    You sound like you work in the advertisement department showing off all the strong points but hiding the weak...
    Viktor wrote:
    Not the same gun. Its vastly modernized with some hi-end solutions being implemented on a movingplatform.
    Its an inferior gun as i have prooved , 1,2 km iz a large internal dead zone that is a circle of 2,4km, diameter ,they better be good.
    Viktor wrote:
    Here is a missile in cross section - I dont read Russian but maybe TR1 might help about identification with the engine.

    And still this is not the same missile Russians are using.
    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 12 20fq7ow
    Missile is quite simple ,it is very fast no doubt but has its limitations.
    Huge booster means large internal dead zone ,no sustainer , so second stage flies in a balistic path and has limited maneuvering capability with together its small finns-canarads.
    Viktor wrote:
    Rpg type 7v wrote:Also few more things , pantcir missiles drop in speed on average 70m/s/s ,

    Nope, you are wrong as usual - its 40m/sec
    Im right, deceleration like acceleration is measured in meters per second squared m/s*s in time units , or m/sec during certain distance traveled.
    besides its booster can accelerate it 1,3km /s for horizontal shot or 1,2 km/s for near vertical shot ,so it can vary also.

    Deceleration is on average 40m/s per km, so it will be higher early on during its flight maybe 60 m/s per km. at 10km away that can be 500 m/s deceleration. Also the reason garry cant calculate right is because during booster cut-off the missile is already 1,2-1,5 km away so the speed of the second stage only then starts to drop.

    even in garrys link they say - short ballistic delay during no-booster flight (40 m/s for 1 km of track)
    Viktor wrote:

    So we are here talking about by far the most capable air defense system in the world and the cheapest one too.
    dunno
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    Post  medo Thu May 09, 2013 9:37 pm

    Rpg type 7v wrote:hey why am i getting negative comments and reputation ?
    the topic is pantsyrs shortcomings defined and i am answering to it.
    well gepard was designed in 60s and fielded in 70s , tunguska is 70s design and 80s production... gepard is the father of tunguska its obvious just by looking at it ,and in configuration -aim radar on center+ 2 gunns on the sides + search radar on the top and rear -so almost everything, but the russians added some missiles which is typical for their thinking.
    but although older gepard has much better gunns!!! of
    35mm caliber and 1,4km/s projectile speed.
    pantcir has 30mm caliber and projectile speed <1km/s which is a huge difference and a big minus for tunguska and pantcir that is a big difference in flight time and accuracy!!

    medo wrote:
    Rpg type 7v wrote:ofcourse its older the russians actually copied gepard and superior german technology and built their own version (chinese style Wink )
    well gary is wrong on many points -again...
    i dont have time now to correct his and others so many mistakes ...

    To be honest, Soviet equivalent to Gepard was this ZSU-37-2 Enisei, build and tested in late fifties and early sixties, but USSR didn't accept them in service.

    http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-401.html

    enisei was a failed configuration and a failed project ,the russians had quite a few failed short range air defence systems , so the russians eventually copied german design ! (and developed an inferior system with 10 years lag).

    BS, Osa is same generation and have two radars. ZSU-37-2 as ZSU-23-4 were developed in fifties and in that time their generators were not able to supply enough energy to feed two radars plus other systems, not to say about size of electronic components in that time. Later they were able to place two radars on one wehicle, what you could see on Kub radar vehicle and Osa. This kind of radar placement is logical, when you put two radars on the turret and of course weapons than go on sides.

    Which Russian SHORAD was failed?
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    Post  TR1 Thu May 09, 2013 11:29 pm

    You are getting negative votes because you still fail to understand what SHORAD means.

    And your GEpard comparison is straight up stupid.
    It gets tiring at some point, correcting someone who is desperate to prove their (incorrect) point.
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    Post  Rpg type 7v Thu May 09, 2013 11:32 pm

    osa is not a gun but a light missile platform ,and not tracked, by the way its archaic radio clos system is today in use with pantsyr What a Face .
    tnx for the negative votes guys it shows who is the man Cool and who a spoiled little brat Mad ,nevermind those that were wrong saying pantcir missiles have sustainer second stage engine got a plus Laughing
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    Post  TR1 Thu May 09, 2013 11:32 pm

    You were right about one thing, the sustainer.

    You were categorically wrong in every other sense.
    Good job man!
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    Post  Rpg type 7v Thu May 09, 2013 11:33 pm

    TR1 wrote:You are getting negative votes because you still fail to understand what SHORAD means.

    And your GEpard comparison is straight up stupid.
    It gets tiring at some point, correcting someone who is desperate to prove their (incorrect) point.
    sooo tunguska is older then gepard and germans copied it? Shocked Off Topic
    but lets talk about pantcir and its many shorcomings shall we .... respekt
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    Post  TR1 Thu May 09, 2013 11:33 pm

    medo wrote:
    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    I believe you have forgotten the two twin barrel 30mm cannon spitting out 5,000rpm of 30 x 165mm cannon shells that puts the dead in the 2km dead zone around the Pantsir.
    .
    i belive even its guns are primitive and quite mediocre compared to todays modern a-a gunns. the 30mm pantcir is using is the same as gunns 30 years ago ,they dont even evolve in some mechanical or constructional way
    , 30mm it looks quite pathetic, compared to this :
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0_XUS0Sfpg&playnext=1&list=PL3qYiMswhauAISZLwUQFxUNDiAGfMlHkZ

    Iran have better. Wink

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdsAhQjmol8

    I will quote this again for our friend.

    Look at that range and ballistic quality!

    Much better than Gepard and earlier too!

    Omg! ZSU-57 also, Gepard was a crappy copy of it ;(
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    Post  Rpg type 7v Thu May 09, 2013 11:34 pm

    TR1 wrote:You were right about one thing, the sustainer.

    You were categorically wrong in every other sense.
    Good job man!
    i was right about everything ,you just wait a little Wink
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    Post  TR1 Thu May 09, 2013 11:34 pm

    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    TR1 wrote:You were right about one thing, the sustainer.

    You were categorically wrong in every other sense.
    Good job man!
    i was right about everything ,you just wait a little Wink

    Yeah, I will wait while more rich customers buy the Pantsir.

    If only they knew the truth!
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    Post  Rpg type 7v Thu May 09, 2013 11:35 pm

    TR1 wrote:

    I will quote this again for our friend.

    Look at that range and ballistic quality!

    Much better than Gepard and earlier too!

    Omg! ZSU-57 also, Gepard was a crappy copy of it ;(

    zsu-57 is a failed project and got whitdrawn unlike some other types of shorad . clown
    besides they all lack mobility of gepard Wink


    Last edited by Rpg type 7v on Thu May 09, 2013 11:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Rpg type 7v Thu May 09, 2013 11:36 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    TR1 wrote:You were right about one thing, the sustainer.

    You were categorically wrong in every other sense.
    Good job man!
    i was right about everything ,you just wait a little Wink

    Yeah, I will wait while more rich customers buy the Pantsir.

    If only they knew the truth!

    egypt and some others got upgraded s-125s ,thats a better value for money.
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    Post  TR1 Thu May 09, 2013 11:38 pm

    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    TR1 wrote:
    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    TR1 wrote:You were right about one thing, the sustainer.

    You were categorically wrong in every other sense.
    Good job man!
    i was right about everything ,you just wait a little Wink

    Yeah, I will wait while more rich customers buy the Pantsir.

    If only they knew the truth!

    egypt and some others got upgraded s-125s ,thats a better value for money.

    Jesus Christ.
    Pantsir and S-125 are in no way compatible. In function, in role, in capability.

    You know what is funny? More nations bought Pantsir than the Pechora S-125 upgrade.
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    Post  TR1 Thu May 09, 2013 11:39 pm

    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    TR1 wrote:

    I will quote this again for our friend.

    Look at that range and ballistic quality!

    Much better than Gepard and earlier too!

    Omg! ZSU-57 also, Gepard was a crappy copy of it ;(

    zsu-57 is a failed project and got whitdrawn unlike some other types of shorad . clown
    besides they all lack mobility of gepard Wink

    Most German Gepard's are withdrawn.

    Guess they are failures.

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