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    Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Zivo
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    Post  Zivo on Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:28 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    Zivo wrote:It's going to take me a long time to get used to Kurganets-25. That is one ugly vehicle.

    I followed this thread for a while without saying much, but am i the only one that is bothered by the design?

    What i mean is and stop me if i'm wrong, russia cooperates on the chassis with sweden on the kurganets, but such similiar designes and other cooperations from more two parties or more on one vehicle have often ended in a mediocre design and sometimes such designes were sold to a foreign country without using it domestically.
    For instance Stryker an absolute horrible design, incompetent plattform made to a waste of resources and soldiers are often praying never get into any unit where they have to relly on this disaster on wheels.

    It has almost no positive aspects the stryker but still was used and is still used for many different units.

    I have maybe not followed every cooperation from several countries to produce one plattform that was supposed to please all parties but that has not been achieved with the Eurocopter Tiger Principe for no country, the already mentioned Stryker, NH-90 multipurpose cargo helicopter that shows big flaws and especially structual weak points and low quality of wiring and there were several cooperations/joint ventures for ground vehicles that went out bad.

    So, i think i can't be the only one that often thinks that countries, specially countries like russia with a big military complex and the already high know-how should waste time and money to cooperate with countries who can't compete on technological level and might end up with designs such as this that haven't shown till this date to have much of practial use.

    Such designs are most common in europe but not for russia and a similiar design at least from appereance is the Stryker.

    I mean i really hope i'm wrong and we don't end up with crap like this.



    First and foremost, Kurganets-25 is a Russian vehicle built for the Russian Army's needs.

    Since we know very little about the details, I'm not going to speculate about Kurganets-25's capabilities yet. It wont be much longer until more info is released, then we can start really discussing the design.

    Anyways, my biggest fear with the design is that it will end up exceeding the intended weight limit of the vehicle.
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    Post  collegeboy16 on Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:43 am

    Zivo wrote:
    First and foremost, Kurganets-25 is a Russian vehicle built for the Russian Army's needs.

    Since we know very little about the details, I'm not going to speculate about Kurganets-25's capabilities yet. It wont be much longer until more info is released, then we can start really discussing the design.

    Anyways, my biggest fear with the design is that it will end up exceeding the intended weight limit of the vehicle.
    X2, tho can someone here explain why 25 tons is teh limit?
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    Post  Austin on Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:45 am

    Seems like Armata Vehical has 6 Wheels like the current T-90 from the pic I saw on Gurkhan blog
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:03 pm

    Hell of a sight:

    Notice the two twin launchers below the ATGM twin launchers?

    Looks like Drozd 3 is the chosen APS?

    All channels needed. TV, Thermal imager, laser range finder, IR missile locator, laser missile guiding channel.

    And fully duplicated for gunner and commander...

    I wonder if the bustle on the KBTM BMPT Armata model uses the bustle as ammo storage for the GSh-6-23 in a similar manner?

    Perhaps above the turret ring is acceptable for small arms calibres and light auto cannon calibres while heavy artillery rounds might be kept below the turret ring.

    This arrangement would maximise the number of troops carried by the vehicle and would be ideal for APCs. It could also be used in existing vehicles I guess with the area below the turret occupied by the commander and gunner as in a conventional BMP there wont be separate areas for them.

    Typhoon?I thought they scrapped plans for a typhoon chassis for a Boomerang-10 chassis for the sake of logistical convenience and comparability?

    Typhoon, Boomerang, kurganets, and armata were not actual vehicle families they were vehicle classes. I have read that the typhoon requirement could be filled by a modified boomerang to improve commonality etc but it might still be called typhoon.

    Also I could see the turret design pictured above for the BTR with the Boomerang-10 chassis, but would they scale up the power in the heavier chassis classes? I know that BTR's were never heavily armed vehicles, but I could see the Boomerang-25, Kurganets-25 version of BTR's with a main armament being a 45mm autocannon, and the Armata BTR chassis having a 57mm autocannon.

    Yes and no. Different vehicles have different roles and for each role they will have weapon options. For the APC role fairly light firepower is needed, so a light auto cannon and anti armour missiles should be good enough. For an IFV on the other hand it will need to be able to engage its own equal on the battlefield meaning 30mm cannon is not good enough.

    Currently the APC has 14.5mm HMG or 30mm cannon armament, the IFV has 30mm cannon and 100mm rifled gun armament, the tank has 125mm main gun, and artillery is 122mm and 152mm.

    the future increase in armour means the 30mm cannon no longer cuts it as an anti IFV weapon so it will be replaced with either a 45mm or 57mm weapon... but likely not both.

    The 30/100mm rifled gun of the BMP might be replaced with a combination of 45/57mm gun and missiles, but for the APC models the turret above is probably the most likely.

    Ideally it would have a 120mm gun mortar, but it would take up too much space in a vehicle that is supposed to be carrying troops.

    Kamaz is developing a whole family of vehicles on a modular chassis. Typhoon will likely be for logistics and interior forces.

    AFAIK that is a different family of vehicles that is not related... often called Taifun.

    The new Russian army structure is based on light, medium, and heavy brigades.

    In the light brigades, they will have BTRs, BMPs, MBTs, etc. vehicles based on Boomerang. The medium brigades will have BMPs, BTRs, MBTs etc. based on Kurganets-25, and the heavy brigades will have BMP's BTR's MBT's BMPT's etc. based on Armata.

    Agree with most of what you said Zivo, but the light brigades will all be wheeled and have Typhoon type vehicles, while the heavy brigades will be all tracked and have armata, but the medium brigades will have both tracked and wheeled brigades (note not mixed... they will be all wheeled or all tracked).

    the tracked brigades will be Kurganets and the wheeled medium brigades will be boomerang based.

    This means there wont be a single T-99 MBT, there will be an armata heavy tracked MBT, a medium tracked Kurganets MBT, a medium wheeled boomerang MBT and a light wheeled typhoon MBT and those vehicles will as far as possible share electronics and weapons and systems... the heavy and medium MBTs might have 125mm main guns while the light vehicle might have a 57mm gun instead.

    What i mean is and stop me if i'm wrong, russia cooperates on the chassis with sweden on the kurganets, but such similiar designes and other cooperations from more two parties or more on one vehicle have often ended in a mediocre design and sometimes such designes were sold to a foreign country without using it domestically.

    Not sure where you got the idea Russia is cooperating with Sweden or any other country regarding the new vehicles they are developing.
    Russia has a lot of experience designing armoured vehicles and has accumulated a lot of knowledge which is all being applied to these new vehicles.

    We have only seen prototypes and proposals and artist impressions so far so I am not sure how you can claim anything about anything at this point.

    Previously when information is released from Russian companies about new equipment it is because it has failed and they want foreign partners to further develop their product.

    Anyways, my biggest fear with the design is that it will end up exceeding the intended weight limit of the vehicle.

    25 tons is not a weight limit... it is a weight class. The armata is supposed to be a 55 ton weight class vehicle but the Coalition is likely to weigh 65 tons.

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    Post  etaepsilonk on Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:58 pm

    collegeboy16 wrote:
    Zivo wrote:
    First and foremost, Kurganets-25 is a Russian vehicle built for the Russian Army's needs.

    Since we know very little about the details, I'm not going to speculate about Kurganets-25's capabilities yet. It wont be much longer until more info is released, then we can start really discussing the design.

    Anyways, my biggest fear with the design is that it will end up exceeding the intended weight limit of the vehicle.
    X2, tho can someone here explain why 25 tons is teh limit?


    I assume, in order to fit 2 vehicles in a IL-76.
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    Post  Zivo on Thu Jan 23, 2014 6:30 am

    And fully duplicated for gunner and commander...

    They're different, take a look at TR1's image of the actual turret. It looks like the commander might be getting a bit more capability.

    the tracked brigades will be Kurganets and the wheeled medium brigades will be boomerang based.

    Oops, you're correct. I confused "wheeled" with "light". Technically both Boomerang and Kurganets are part of the medium brigades.


    AFAIK that is a different family of vehicles that is not related... often called Taifun.

    Taifun = Typhoon. Whether or not it was "The Typhoon"... Fourth model back on the lineup of next gen vehicles. As a gambling man, I would say yes.

    Russian Ground Forces: News #1 - Page 30 Armata_main_battle_tank_Russia_Russian_army_defence_industry_military_technology_640

    If I recall, Kamaz had trouble bringing Typhoon down to a 4x4 while retaining armor, it was too heavy and the design was halted. That could be one of the reasons why Boomerang-10 was suggested.

    Boomerang and Kurganets are supposed to have 70% commonality between each other. I have a hard time believing Boomerang can be reduced enough to become a sensible light vehicle given that the original supposedly will have so much in common with a BMP.

    Frankly, I don't think the MoD knows what they want for the light brigades.

    25 tons is not a weight limit... it is a weight class. The armata is supposed to be a 55 ton weight class vehicle but the Coalition is likely to weigh 65 tons.

    Once you start climbing above 25 tons you're getting into the M2A2 weight class.  pwnd
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:32 am

    They're different, take a look at TR1's image of the actual turret. It looks like the commander might be getting a bit more capability.

    Sorry, what I meant was that the gunner clearly has most of the optics and capabilities that the commander has.

    I would say thermal, plus laser rangefinder/laser target marker for spot homing and laser beam riding missiles as well as day tv optical ports for the gunner and commander so either the gunner or commander would be able to guide the Kornets or other laser beam riding weapons or laser beam spot homing weapons.

    Put this turret on a BRDM-2 and you could zip around the battlefield armed with a 30mm cannon and 10km range anti armour and anti aircraft missiles able to mark targets for artillery delivered laser guided shells or aircraft delivered laser guided bombs. In a few years time that light vehicle could be a Typhoon.

    Taifun = Typhoon. Whether or not it was "The Typhoon"... Fourth model back on the lineup of next gen vehicles. As a gambling man, I would say yes.

    No... the Taifun was a Kamaz truck for interior ministry and other para military forces.

    The models shown are proposals from one company and are not certain.

    The light vehicles are actually very important because they will make up the majority of Russian Army forces (being cheap to mass produce and highly mobile and likely with heavy firepower they should get into service and operational very fast).

    If I recall, Kamaz had trouble bringing Typhoon down to a 4x4 while retaining armor, it was too heavy and the design was halted. That could be one of the reasons why Boomerang-10 was suggested.

    It would certainly be a valid reason, though from memory the Typhoon was always going to be a 6 wheeled vehicle family even for the lightest roles due to armour mass and also weapon weight.

    Boomerang and Kurganets are supposed to have 70% commonality between each other. I have a hard time believing Boomerang can be reduced enough to become a sensible light vehicle given that the original supposedly will have so much in common with a BMP.

    Keep in mind that the armour will be modular and that being the same weight class they will need similar engines and transmissions and gearing... and the same vehicles will have the same armament and same controls and seats etc etc... the main difference will be the wheels/tracks.

    Once you start climbing above 25 tons you're getting into the M2A2 weight class.

    I rather suspect the medium brigade 152mm artillery vehicle is the truck based Coalition already shown, so in that regard the heaviest vehicle in this family would probably be 30-35 tons... which is heavy for a tracked or wheeled APC, but not heavy for a wheeled or tracked MBT.

    The main thing likely to restrict weight is the requirement for amphibious capability.

    It is all together possible they might go for amphibious capability with light vehicles and snorkling for medium and heavy vehicles...

    I rather suspect the Kurganets will need to float which means Boomerang will too.
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    Post  Zivo on Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:23 am

    No... the Taifun was a Kamaz truck for interior ministry and other para military forces.

    The models shown are proposals from one company and are not certain.

    The light vehicles are actually very important because they will make up the majority of Russian Army forces (being cheap to mass produce and highly mobile and likely with heavy firepower they should get into service and operational very fast).

    At this point, nothing about the light brigades are certain.

    The Kamaz Typhoon is a rather thorough family. Take note of the design on the bottom right of the image. Perhaps Kamaz initially proposed the Typhoon family of the vehicles to the MoD, hence the name.

    Russian Ground Forces: News #1 - Page 30 8nvYk

    Either way, the MoD has a lot of options, arguably too many for the light vehicle class.

    Keep in mind that the armour will be modular and that being the same weight class they will need similar engines and transmissions and gearing... and the same vehicles will have the same armament and same controls and seats etc etc... the main difference will be the wheels/tracks.

    I'm not worried about commonalty between Boomerang and Kurganets,  after all, we managed to modify a Stryker to have tracks. The Russians should have no problem doing that from scratch. I'm worried about also designing Boomerang to be a practical light vehicle if the Boomerang-10 is pursued.

    Crossing weight classes just doesn't seem smart.  Stryker and the GCV program have suffered because of this approach. If this route is taken, it must be walked carefully.


    I rather suspect the medium brigade 152mm artillery vehicle is the truck based Coalition already shown

    Agreed.

    Kamaz may end up proposing a 8x8 design for Boomerang, which would have a high percent of commonality with their heavy trucks which have already been proposed for the support roll of the wheeled brigades.  It's worth noting that the MRAP and the 6x6 truck have 86% commonality between each other. A Boomerang design wouldn't be much different.
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    Post  TR1 on Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:27 am

    Hopefully the decision about light brigades ( a very controversial subject btw) will actually be made by military academies and trained professionals, and not "effective managers" or other clueless externals.

    The force structure planned is likely to change 5 times before the vehicles are bought en masse.

    I still think the wheeled Koalition is stupid. Especially on that chassis, doesn't even look it can handle such a serious turret. Praying the actual vehicle is very different from the renders.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:15 am

    I still think the wheeled Koalition is stupid. Especially on that chassis, doesn't even look it can handle such a serious turret. Praying the actual vehicle is very different from the renders.

    The DANA and G6 are very successful wheeled artillery designs that are much cheaper and more mobile on good roads than track layers.

    If the entire unit will be wheeled it makes sense to have wheeled artillery too.

    I suspect new engines and transmissions and gearboxes etc can be applied to new trucks to enable common parts and cheap components and simplified maintainence.

    Incidentally as a career path maintaining army vehicles would lead to good jobs maintaining trucks in civilian life...
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    Post  Sujoy on Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:56 am

    US and EU keen to participate in Russia's Tank Biathlon

    RIA Novosti wrote:The United States and a number of European countries have asked to participate in Russia’s international tank biathlon, President Vladimir Putin said Wednesday.

    “They filed a request with the Defense Ministry to participate. We will be happy [to have them],” Putin said while fielding questions from students at a Moscow university.

    Russia invited the US to participate back in August at a meeting of defense officials.The first tank biathlon was held in the Moscow suburb of Alabino in August last year. This year’s competition is planned to run from July 26 to August 10.

    The tank biathlon is analogous to the Olympic event. Tank crews must navigate a 20-kilometer (12.5-mile) course that includes obstacles such as a slalom run, water crossings, bridges and steep climbs.The tanks must also accurately shoot a set of targets at distances of up to 2.2 kilometers (1.4 miles) that simulate other tanks and low-flying helicopters.

    The Defense Ministry said in a statement Wednesday that more than 40 countries had expressed interest in participating.
    Putin said the event helps promote the nation’s defense industry, noting that Russia is second only to the US in terms of the volume of arms exports.
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    Post  Sujoy on Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:58 am

    Russia poised to boost production of futuristic defence technology

    Rossiyskaya Gazeta wrote:A year ago, Russia set up the Fund for Perspective Research (FPR), an organization designed for boosting research and serial production of unique military technology for the future. This body with substantial state funding would analyse potential  security challenges, threats  to Russia’s national interests, seek bold non-conventional ideas running ahead of time and support scientific research  and designing in defence that would facilitate production of breakthrough defence and dual use technology, Vladimir President Putin said in a meeting of the body held in Tula.

    The FPR is expected to be a technological lift for facilitating innovations in order to achieve qualitative results in the defence and socio-economic domains and ensure their quick application and production. President Putin stressed that the Russian army and navy have to be equipped with weapon-systems of tomorrow that would correspond to the requirements of future military conflicts and strengthen the country’s security in a fast changing world. The Russian president called on scientists to think and act head of time, creating the most developed arsenal for the Russian armed forces.

    In the course of the past one year, FPR received 1100 proposals  out of which 77 have been approved while work has started on 12 projects  that include “Defender of the Future,” “Air Start”  and “Command 112.” While the first project is designed to replace soldiers with robots in the battlefield, implementation of the second project would facilitate launching of space objects from the AN-225 super heavy aircrafts, otherwise known as Mriya. The third project would help in providing early emergency warnings. The realisation period varies from project to project; while the Air Start project might take 7 years to produce a concrete result, other projects could be realized much faster.
    The FPR is not supposed to repeat the components   of the massive and long-term state arms programme. While the State Arms Programme has to deal exclusively with the development of military technology, FPR would be engaged in development of dual-use technologies, capable of bolstering the industrial and economic development of the country.

    Encouraging scientists to take financial risks connected with research, whose result could be unpredictable at the outset, President Putin urged Russian researchers to select projects that would by no means repeat designs developed in foreign countries as investment of resources in projects already completed by others is ineffective.      
             
    The fund is to work in close cooperation with prominent research centres, educational institutes and industrial complexes of the country and ensure the leading position for Russia when it comes to innovation.  Huge tasks have been put before the FPR- to strengthen research infrastructure and to use new methods of organization and scientific research in the country. The fund has already taken initiatives to create special well-equipped and modern laboratories in leading organizations of the Military Industrial Complex, technical universities and research institutes of the Academy of Sciences of Russia. Most qualified specialists from across the country would be recruited to these laboratories that provide the most favourable conditions for conducting research.

    Nearly half a million Russian scientists fled the country in the decade following Soviet disintegration as scientific research was relegated to the back seat in the Yeltsin years. Hundreds of research centres, institutes, construction bureaus were closed  throwing thousands of scientists to the streets and delivering a heavy blow to the national economy, particularly to its military industrial complex .

    President Yeltsin and his prime minister Igor Gaidar ignored the fact that the military industrial complex formed the backbone of Russia’s economy and constituted the power house of cutting–edge technologies of the future. Russia’s current leadership, aware of this fact, plans to accelerate socio-economic development in the country by revamping the military-industrial complex. In its attempt to rebuild the economy, the Russian leadership is pursuing a strategy based on scientific-innovation. Revamping the defence industry complex would usher in economic development in the coming years. President Putin has promised to create 25 million high tech jobs under this strategy and the newly created Fund for Perspective Research is a well-conceived step in this direction.  
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    Post  Viktor on Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:59 am

    22 countries confirmed their arrival so far .... Its going to get interesting
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    Post  flamming_python on Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:16 pm

    So Russia invented not just a new sport, but a whole new branch of sports Very Happy
    I think other related competitions can get added on in the coming years to the main event; a military olympics of sorts.
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    Post  Werewolf on Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:02 pm

    flamming_python wrote:So Russia invented not just a new sport, but a whole new branch of sports Very Happy
    I think other related competitions can get added on in the coming years to the main event; a military olympics of sorts.

    They should do that every year with all kind of vehicles and aircrafts, getting money, hell of an advertisment and literally a show off for who has the "bigger" one.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:04 pm

    TR1 wrote:Russian Ground Forces: News #1 - Page 30 Screenshot_3

    Russian Ground Forces: News #1 - Page 30 CmjaC

    Russian Ground Forces: News #1 - Page 30 JCGXt

    Too compliment the photos here's some footage of the turret, located at 1 minute in to the video:

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    Post  collegeboy16 on Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:49 am

    They forgot the grenade launcher at the foreground, maybe they can replace the dual Kornets at one side, make a box behind it to store ammo.
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    Post  medo on Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:53 am

    TR1 wrote:Hell of a sight:

    Russian Ground Forces: News #1 - Page 30 KWMiG

    To be honest, this RWS turret remind me on turret in German Puma IFV. I read somewhere, that this KBP turret was bad, because it have vulnerable FCS optics. I think they could very easily place armor around optics as Germans did with Puma. Placing more channels in optics take more space, so it become bigger.

    Russian Ground Forces: News #1 - Page 30 Ifv-pu10
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    Post  Zivo on Sat Jan 25, 2014 11:26 am

    Who's to say the sides and rear of the optic boxes are not protected from small arms fire? There's plenty of space to sandwich ballistic material. A lightweight hardened shell around each component of the optics system seems like a good way to go IMO.

    BTW, doesn't the Puma have weight problems?
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    Post  Regular on Sat Jan 25, 2014 3:52 pm

    It reminds me a bit of Polish RWS, but Russian one looks more potent.
    Russian Ground Forces: News #1 - Page 30 ZSSWtyp2plusKOBUZ

    I'm not sure about optics placement, any experts could comment more about it?
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 26, 2014 8:36 am

    They forgot the grenade launcher at the foreground, maybe they can replace the dual Kornets at one side, make a box behind it to store ammo.

    My favourite position for a grenade launcher upgrade is on the BMP-2 upgrade with the grenade launcher centre rear of the turret with the ammo on the roof top and the grenade launcher able to elevate independently but turn with the turret.

    I think they could very easily place armor around optics as Germans did with Puma.

    The optics on the Russian vehicle seems to have armoured covers.

    Placing more channels in optics take more space, so it become bigger.

    Hardly fair... if the German vehicle had Kornet it would need more optics channels too. Personally I would rather have an anti tank missile able to penetrate 1.4 metres of steel armour at 8.5km and shoot down enemy light aircraft or point ground targets at 10km.
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    Post  Viktor on Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:25 pm

    RIP to the dead.

    WTF happened here LINK
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    Post  TR1 on Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:31 pm

    Viktor wrote:RIP to the dead.

    WTF happened here LINK

    Yep, it was a T-72B3 too.

    Russian Ground Forces: News #1 - Page 30 WoV1q

    Apparently it was a human factor cock-up. RIP!

    Don't want to sound insensitive, but I shudder to think how the current army is going to handle Armatas and all the new fancy stuff.
    From photos in line units, some of the personnel are extremely careless with ammunition and such...

    By the way, same unit managed to blow a BMP up:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-isOpBNi12Y
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    Post  collegeboy16 on Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:43 am

    TR1 wrote:
    Apparently it was a human factor cock-up. RIP!

    Don't want to sound insensitive, but I shudder to think how the current army is going to handle Armatas and all the new fancy stuff.
    From photos in line units, some of the personnel are extremely careless with ammunition and such...

    By the way, same unit managed to blow a BMP up:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-isOpBNi12Y
    Actually the next gen vehicles would be a lot harder to blow up intentionally or otherwise anyway, what with the crew compartment seperate from the rest of the tank. afaik there would be as much as 2 pro crew per Armata MBT, the others too maybe.
    zg18
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    Russian Ground Forces: News #1 - Page 30 Empty Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  zg18 on Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:28 pm

    Defense minister Shoigu visit 74th motorized brigade and awards with Order of Kutuzov , Kemerovo - Siberia. Unit has been equipped with new uniforms.


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    Russian Ground Forces: News #1 - Page 30 Empty Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

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