PAK FA, T-50: News #1

Russian 5th-generation fighter makes 2nd flight

RIA Novosti

12/02/201012:15

MOSCOW, February 12 (RIA Novosti) - Russia's prototype fifth-generation fighter has made a second test flight in the Far East, a Defense Ministry official told RIA Novosti on Friday.

"Russian specialists have been carefully monitoring the U.S. F-22 Raptor, so we can compare the newest Russian fighter with it," the official said, adding that the plane had "a very bright future."

After a number of test flights in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, the aircraft will be transported to the Zhukovsky airbase near Moscow for final testing.

A prototype of the fighter made a 47-minute maiden flight in Russia's Far East on January 29.

Russia has been developing its newest fighter since the 1990s. The current prototype, known as the T-50, was designed by the Sukhoi design bureau and built at a plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur.

Russian officials have already hailed the fighter as "a unique warplane" that combines the capabilities of an air superiority fighter and attack aircraft.

Earlier this week, Russia's Air Force chief said the first batch of fifth-generation fighters would go into service in 2015.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2010/russia-100212-rianovosti01.htm

Russia, India to develop joint 5G-fighter by 2016

RIA Novosti

02/03/201015:03

MOSCOW, March 2 (RIA Novosti) - A Russian-Indian fifth-generation fighter jet could be developed by 2015-2016, a Russian defense industry official said on Tuesday.

Moscow and New Delhi are expected to sign a contract on a joint development of the new fighter in the near future, focusing on the design concept and technical requirements put forward by India.

"I hope that we will be able to build a joint fifth-generation aircraft in the next five to six years. It is a time-consuming and complex project," said Alexander Fomin, first deputy head of the Federal Service for Military and Technical Cooperation.

The new aircraft will be most likely based on Russia's T-50 prototype fifth-generation fighter, which has already made two test flights and is expected to join the Russian Air Force in 2015.

India's Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) was reported to be seeking a 25% share in design and development in the project.

Fomin said the fighter for the Indian Air Force could incorporate several integrated on-board systems developed by third parties.

"The integration is good because we will not have to invent a bicycle and can use the things that our neighbors already have, but it is also a difficult task because we will have to combine all the elements in a unified system," the official said.

The new fighter for the Indian Air Force is expected to feature a two-seat cockpit, advanced electronics and could be armed with BrahMos supersonic missiles.

Russia has been developing its fifth-generation fighter since the 1990s. The current prototype, known as the T-50, was designed by the Sukhoi design bureau and built at a plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, in Russia's Far East.

Russian officials have already hailed the fighter as "a unique warplane" that combines the capabilities of an air superiority fighter and attack aircraft.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2010/russia-100302-rianovosti02.htm

New PAk-FA pics.

if ther is a god may he have mercy to not let this plane to be sold to the chinese... we like to sell new stuff to chinese that we can't even buy for our own army...

GarryB wrote:Not strictly true about sales to Chinese.

It is true that the Chinese were buying lots of stuff at a time when the Russian Armed forces was not buying anything but if you look at what the Chinese were actually allowed to buy you will see they didn't get to choose from the top shelf.

Now that Russia is starting to spend money on its armed forces it not only has the choice of anything made in Russia, but also quite a few options from other countries.

If you think about it, in the past Russia has had no problems buying stuff from most former Soviet republics, but now that they are foreign countries if you are going to look a thermal imagers from Belarus then why not also look at thermal imagers from France and Sweden and South Africa etc etc.

China bought Moskits (SS-N-22) when India and Russia developed a new missile based on the missile that was to replace the SS-N-22. (Brahmos was developed from the Yakhont, which was the export version of the Oniks, which was the replacement for MOSKIT.)

The Flankers the Chinese bought were multirole, unlike the flankers in Russian service, but they were nothing like the Su-27M (the Su-35 of the late 1980s) let alone the current Su-35S, or even the Su-30MKI produced for the Indians.

I think the sales to China were purely for money transactions and that when money is less of a concern (ie now production capacity is probably more of an issue because they are having trouble producing for the Russian Armed forces AND export commitments at the same time.) that they can be more picky about who they sell to and what they sell.

After problems with the Chinese allegedly copying items and exporting them as their own I really think things like S-400 and PAK FA will not be sold to China any time soon... but that of course is just my opinion.

Perhaps someone with insider knowledge might be able to back up or refute this opinion?

Yes, I don't think that will happen soon . Would we be that dumb to arm a potiential adversary with this high tech technology?

1st flight on Zukovski

GarryB wrote:Not strictly true about sales to Chinese.

It is true that the Chinese were buying lots of stuff at a time when the Russian Armed forces was not buying anything but if you look at what the Chinese were actually allowed to buy you will see they didn't get to choose from the top shelf.

Lets see what we sold them...

Su-30MKK/MK2
S-300PMU2
Sovremenny DDGs
Kilo 877EKM
Klub-S missile
Rif-FM
Shtil-1
Fregat-M MCR
Mi-38
R-77
Kh-31P
Kh-59

Looks like the top shelf of the export catalogue to me. We sold them some stuff not even in it.

GarryB wrote:

The Su-30MKK and MKK2 are not as capable as the MKI you sold to India and certainly not as capable as the Su-35S you will have in service soon.

MKI is hardly more advanced if you take out the Western avionics in it. A 2D TVC is about the only real difference, slightly better radar but still all the capabilities. We sold China the MK2s before we did MKI so it was the best at the time. The first operational Su-35BM doesn't even exist yet.

The Kilo 877EKMs are better than inservice Russian Kilos, but when new things are not being bought that is no surprise. The point is they didn't get the 636 Kilos or even the Amur or Lada classes.

But they did get 636 Kilos. Amur and Lada aren't ready for export, still working out the bugs.

Most of the examples you give where they get actual good stuff like the Mi-38 is where India wasn't interested, Russia still had no money to fund and China was willing to fund development.

So we give away our technology so the Chinese can go pirate it leaving us with no gain.

Much like the case where Antei sold the US a full S-300V system and using the money earned developed the S-300VM or Antei-2500.

Almaz never sold a full S-300V system to the US.

Development of new jet engines is one of the most problematic aspects of the program PAK FA

A recent Salon Russian manufacturers "Engines-2010" provided a presentation on progress in developing a new engine, designed for next-generation fighter T-50 (PAK FA). Head of the Joint Engine Corporation Vasily Lapotko said that the engine will create sovmetno several companies.

Previously, for developing the future of jet engine with a thrust of 16 tons (157kN) fought two companies: Scientific-Production Association "Saturn" (already included in the Joint Engine Corporation) and the Moscow Machine Building Production Enterprise "Salut" (it may soon enter into RBC, because of its general director Yury Eliseev was appointed deputy director of the corporation).

JDC decided. The consortium will be the general contractor with a share of 54%, while the remaining 46% depart MMPP Salyut. Now the sides have been negotiating the division of responsibilities, but the main question is, whose technical proposal will be used as the basis of the program. According to Yuri Eliseev project "Salute" will be supported by the Central Institute of Aviation Motors, and the Ministry of Defense of Russia.

Urgency

The Director-General Vladimir CIAM Skibin urged the Ministry of Defence to begin testing the engine as soon as possible. Basil Lapotko his part, said: "We can handle every day about the progress of the project, and it turns out that he is still a very early stage. However, now started work on the nozzles and combustion chamber. In its official communications JDC still says that production will begin in 2017, but this time clearly look overly optimistic. Moreover, not a fact that Russia has the necessary resources for successful completion of this project. It is also possible that the Ministry of Defense will delay the order of engines up to that time until he PAK FA will not pass the preliminary tests, that is, at least until 2012.

Performance

In the near future engine 117 still must allow the T-50 aircraft to meet the requirements for the fifth generation. At least minimal. In fact, the main problem of the jet engine 117 is in its lack of traction without Forsazh. Its exact value is unknown, but it is clearly less than 10 tons. Thus, the thrust 117C (designed for the Su-35 "lite" version of 117) of 8.8 tonnes without Forsazh and 14,5 tons of afterburner. In this regard, T-50 will be able to reach supersonic speeds with Mach number 1.3, not 1.5 as stated in the specifications. For comparison: the supersonic F-22 U.S. Air Force (the main competitor to the T-50) is able to fly at Mach 1,7.

Another weakness of the engine is its relative complexity, originating from the similarity with the AL-31F. Thus, 117 is nine-high-pressure compressor, while the F119-PW-100 American F-22A at these levels only six. And this has a direct effect on the reliability of the unit and its maintenance.

Salyut AL-31F Upgrade

In parallel with participation in the creation engine for the T-50 "Salute" intends to upgrade the AL-31F. His goal is to create a new engine, which would be completely interchangeable with the base version of AL-31F, which is installed on Su-27. It should be, given that the installation of 117C for Su-35 required major modifications.

The first stage of this upgrade should be the AL-31F-M1: he will be a new low-pressure compressor, which gives more traction 13,5 tons (1 ton more than the basic version), while the service will increase to 1000 hours. AL-31F-M1 will be called the AL-31F "series 42" and installed on the modernized Su-27SM and tactical bombers, Su-34.

As soon as the test will be the AL-31F-M2 with a thrust in 14.5 tons of the equipment: get a new combustion chamber and control system jets. AL-31F-M3 with a thrust of 15 tons is still under development. This engine will be used and some elements of the technical proposal "Salute" for the PAK FA, including the three-stage low-pressure compressor and six-high-pressure compressor.

Peter Butovsky ("Air & Cosmos", France)

GarryB wrote:

There is a significant difference between the MKK and the MKI and it is not just the western avionics. The avionics are fundamentally different, the MKI has a mil std data bus that pretty much allows new bits or weapons to be plug and play. The MKK requires new code to integrate new features.
And you sold the MKK when the Su-27M was a possibility, so even then it wasn't the best you could have sold them.

Nah, there isn't much difference between the MK2 and MKI once you take out the Western kit. Thrust vector and a higher processing bus but the advantage is marginal.

So they got the vessels the Russian navy would have been getting 10 years ago if they spent the money on them, they are not getting what is the latest.

They got the best we had at the time, we sold it to them 10 years ago. Lada was just a dream back then. Still seems like a dream with all the delays.

If you don't fund the development yourself then it is their technology... they are paying for it. You end up with a company with a bit more experience and capability that has just earned some cash in the process. To be brutally honest the Mi-38 doesn't look to me to be generationally superior to the latest models of the Mi-17.
I would suggest that Mil need to aim higher and develop a new design that is more ambitious, that the Russian Army will look at and decide they have to have it.

It isn't their technology, it is French and Russian. It was developed under EuroMil. Without Western engines we can't do anything with it. Transport helicopters are all about the engines now. China can buy them, we can't.

Regarding the Engines I have read that the 5th gen engines wont be ready for 8-10 years, though the person saying that said that might be a good think because by then the aircraft will have probably gained weight and need the extra power and other variants will be in the process of development including naval and other dedicated variants. To me it sounded like he was looking at a cloud and picking out the shiny lining so he could make people forget they had no umbrella.

Trust me, it isn't a good thing. I doubt there ever will be a new generation engine for PAK FA before its production run is over. Maybe one for an MLU. By that time USAF is going to be running around in hypersonic bombers.

New test flight video of PAK FA

Russia's 5G fighter to be '3 times cheaper than foreign analogs'


RIA Novosti

16:26 17/06/2010

ZHUKOVSKY, June 17 (RIA Novosti) - Russia's fifth generation fighter will be about three times as cheap as its foreign analog, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin said on Thursday.

He observed the test flight of a prototype fighter and later talked to the pilot, Sergei Bogdan.

"It will be a machine superior to our main competitor, the F-22, in maneuverability, armament and range," Putin said.

"Also in morale," the pilot added.

"Above all else," Putin said smiling.

Bogdan said it was the fighter's 16th test flight and more would follow shortly.

The prime minister said 30 billion rubles (around $1 billion) had already been spent on the project and another 30 billion would be required to complete it, after which the engine, weaponry and other components would be upgraded.

He said, factoring in modernization and upgrades, the fighter will have a service life of 30-35 years.

Russia's only known fifth-generation project is Sukhoi's PAK FA and the current prototype is the T-50. It is designed to compete with the U.S. F-22 Raptor, so far the world's only fifth-generation fighter, and the F-35 Lightning II.

Russia has been developing its newest fighter since the 1990s. The country's top military officials earlier said the stealth fighter jet with a range of up to 5,500 km would enter service with the Air Force in 2015.

The PAK FA is to be armed with next-generation air-to-air, air-to-surface, and air-to-ship missiles, and has two 30-mm cannons.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2010/russia-100617-rianovosti01.htm

Russian Air Force to buy over 60 fifth-generation fighters

The Russian Air Force will receive more than 60 fifth-generation fighters from 2015-16, the force commander said on Tuesday.

"The Air Force will start taking delivery [of fifth-generation fighters] in 2015-16. The preliminary number is over 60," Col. Gen. Alexander Zelin said.

He also said the first batch of new fighters would be provided with older, "non-fifth" generation engines.

In mid-June Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin observed the 16th test flight of a prototype fighter.

Deputy Defense Minister for Arms Procurement Vladimir Popovkin said the Defense Ministry would purchase the first 6 to 10 aircraft after 2012, based on the outcome of initial tests. He said the fighter will be superior to similar U.S. models.

The prime minister said 30 billion rubles (around $1 billion) had already been spent on the project and another 30 billion would be required to complete it, after which the engine, weaponry and other components would be upgraded.

He said the fighter would have a service life of 30-35 years, if modernization and upgrades are factored in, and would be around three times cheaper than its foreign analogs

Russia's only known fifth-generation project is Sukhoi's PAK FA and the current prototype is the T-50. It is designed to compete with the U.S. F-22 Raptor, so far the world's only fifth-generation fighter, and the F-35 Lightning II.

Russia has been developing its newest fighter since the 1990s. The country's top military officials have said the stealth fighter jet with a range of up to 5,500 km should enter service with the Air Force in 2015.

The PAK FA is to be armed with next-generation air-to-air, air-to-surface, and air-to-ship missiles, and has two 30-mm cannons.

http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20100713/159797767.html
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

60 huh? 60... what was that shit whit 300? now its "60"

next time a general goes to public and says we plan to buy 500 piecec of prudoct XYZ te standart answere to this should be "go fuck yourself!" who should believe you that? you say 500? i think you wanted to say 50?!?

Serial production isn't going to begin until 2016, and that is if everything goes as planned. I can guarantee something else will throw off the schedule, just about everything new we produce has failed the state acceptance certifications for some reason or another. The first regiment won't be certified until at least 2020, don't forget it takes two years to build and equip a new plane. By the time we get 50 plus the 10 prototypes it will be 2023. We should have a strong export market for the fighter so there will be little capacity to build for VVS. The 2nd batch all depends on making a 5th generation engine which our producers seem unable to do. It appears MoD is more than willing to accept having a pittance of an air force to defend the broad territory of the RF as numbers of modern fighters will fall into the few hundreds.

We can't even fund the T-50 on our own. If India doesn't sign soon there is going to be a major delay much less worrying about a stealth MiG.