Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class submarine

You may also add Algeria to the list of possible customers for the Harmonious boats (Lada).

TR1, they may have actualy solved all the bugs and problems with the first unit (St. Petersburg). I don't see them restart construction unless they have solutions in hand.

In my opinion, the main advantage of these low displacment (1760 T) boats over the Kilos is their low requirement for manpower. These boats go around the various missile treaties that prohibit the land deployment of long range land attack cruise missiles. With the 2000+ km range KALIBR these smallish boats (with miniscule crews) have a colossal conventional or nuclear beheading strike potential...But I will let Mindstorm elaborate on that further (I just hope he uses simpler english with shorter sentences so that we can all understand him )

Mass production when the problems on the lead ship have not even been worked out, and the ship has not gone through trials following the latest modifications...hmm...consider me skeptical.

They have already worked out all the bugs in the first boat and decided on the AIP and new propulsion to deal with the small problems they have found. The fact that they are going ahead suggest all the rumours of lots of problems were BS and that the solutions for those that were real have been found.

I rather doubt the western alternative subs are perfect either and will have problems too.

It can dive to 400m, which exceeds Lada´s 300m, but is not working fairly well and the customers is unhappy with the overall performance.

Being able to operate at a deeper depth is not a huge advantage... it would be much more useful to operate for longer periods without having to surface and the Russian boat has a significant advantage there too.

I would not call the problems small - the program has been stalled for years and repeatedly failed major parameters of testing.

No solid news on the modifications working in full navy trials as of yet, so I remain skeptical.

A lot of misconceptions and plain mistakes circulate around both Pr. 677 "Lada" class and its latest export version "Amur-1650",i think it will be useful to delete them one time for all.


Russian MoD and Navy's Command WILL NOT accept Saint Petersburg , the lead ship of the class on two main basis : underperforming propulsion at high regimes and inconstant/somewhat insufficient energy supply to some key components (among which main sonar).

The Saint Petersburg has been already used as a tests specimen to validate the functions and sort-out all the problems related to any other system of the Lada class (in particular Lira main sonar showing performance's parameters by a good margin superior to those of any other passive and active sonar mounted on non-nuclear submarine worldwide) but NOT those related to energy storage and propulsion.

The reason is very simple, "Saint Petersburg" was designed and constructed MUCH BEFORE the achievement and validation of two recent technological breakthrough in those segments :
A new generation of Lithium-ion battery with energy capacity to volume/weight ratio several times greater than the best lead-acid mounted on foreign SSKs
An almost revolutionary AIP ,based on hydrogen reforming from common diesel fuel aboard, much more silent, compact and safe than the competitor hydrogen-store based systems and capable to produce over 400 Kw against the 180 maximum of the best foreign competitor !!!


http://www.stoletie.ru/rossiya_i_mir/sensacii_le_burzhe_929.htm


Those two new systems will be mounted ,respectively, on the second ship and third ships (the construction of which was purposely frozen waiting for the completion and validation tests of those two systems).
Kronshtadt will mount the Lithium-ion batteries while Sevastopol will mount both the Lithium-ion batteries and the AIP


Amur-1650 will integrate the export version of BOTH of those two systems ,therefore if today it already vastly surpass all its competitors in the fire power, main sonar and acoustic/magnetic signature suppression department ,within 4-5 years ,with theirs integration, it will occupy a true league of its-own in the SSK market's sector.

I rather doubt the western alternative subs are perfect either and will have problems too.

Absolutely true GarryB Not only they will have.... them had already had problems.
Terrible experience of the Type-214 in Hellenic and Korean Navy service anyone ?

http://www.navyleague.org/sea_power/dec06-52.php

http://www.seapower-digital.com/seapower/seapower_sample/?pg=52#pg52

I wonder how safe it is to use Lithium-Ion Batteries on board submarine considering the problem we know it had encounter with 787 Dreamliner and now A350 too decided not to go with LI batteries ?

I would wait till the final product with new battereris and AIP make it to 3rd submarine before proclaiming it to be the best submarine in the world , They say what is already Engineered is much better then what is on paper

But the good news is Russian Naval Command has decided to pursue the Lada design and continue to develop it instead of continually pursuing the late 70 design Kilo and stretching it as it is almost end of it design imporvement life.

If the AIP and LI Batteries make it sucessfully at the earliest , Most certainly Indian Navy will opt for the Amur design

The Navy has already stated that it will keep the Saint Petersberg as a test sub to test new weapons and systems, because it is basically fully functional except in terms of propulsion, so it means that it can be used for testing new equipment without having to bring an active sub off duty for the purposes of testing.

Claims it is the best are no different from US claims the F-22 or B-2 are the best. Any battery option has its own risks... that is the nature of energy storage.

To Mindstorm:

Since your debunking rumors, there are those who say that the Amur/Lada with VLS cruise missiles will have no room for the AIP propulsion, and a follow up question, will the AIP engine replace or will it assist the Diesel engine sorta like a hybrid?

And wasn't Greece just trying to cancel the contract for the Type214 sub because of financial problems, now it's South Korea, what's wrong with that sub(Type214)??

Austin wrote:I would wait till the final product with new batteries and AIP make it to 3rd submarine before proclaiming it to be the best submarine in the world , They say what is already Engineered is much better then what is on paper

But the good news is Russian Naval Command has decided to pursue the Lada design and continue to develop it instead of continually pursuing the late 70 design Kilo and stretching it as it is almost end of it design improvement life.

If the AIP and LI Batteries make it successfully at the earliest , Most certainly Indian Navy will opt for the Amur design

I wouldn't say the best in the world, but definitely one of the best in the world, the Type214 still wins in depth, at least double that of the Lada.

With the prospect of the revolutionary AIP propulsion alone it will most definitely continue development, although i wonder if these breakthroughs will be passed to the kilo design?

That would depend on India's desires and time table.

AlfaT8 wrote:But the good news is Russian Naval Command has decided to pursue the Lada design and continue to develop it instead of continually pursuing the late 70 design Kilo and stretching it as it is almost end of it design improvement life.

Its not good news to pursue a failed project, better cut your losses and begin with a new design.

If the AIP and LI Batteries make it successfully at the earliest , Most certainly Indian Navy will opt for the Amur design

I dont think so, they will want to see a succesful submarine. And i dont see the Kilo is at the end of its design improvement life.

I wouldn't say the best in the world, but definitely one of the best in the world, the Type214 still wins in depth, at least double that of the Lada.

The 214 isnt a succesful design, it has many flaws and design problems, many costumers are unhappy.
The Lada´s test depth is 300m, the 214 400m, hardly double.. The big difference is 214´s doublehull against Ladas monohull. And it seems the monohull wasnt a good idea.

With the prospect of the revolutionary AIP propulsion alone it will most definitely continue development, although i wonder if these breakthroughs will be passed to the kilo design?

Yes, most certainly

Kilo is being improvised but there is as much juice you can get get from a late 70's design. Kilo design served well but its dated for 21st century.

Lada is the right move but its taking too long to come up to operational level and now the best hope for it is the next two sub and hopefully they get it right.

Coming back to depth its not about double or single hull but the materials used , 300 m depth for conventional subs is good enough for most task its designed to perform.

runaway wrote:

AlfaT8 wrote:But the good news is Russian Naval Command has decided to pursue the Lada design and continue to develop it instead of continually pursuing the late 70 design Kilo and stretching it as it is almost end of it design improvement life.

Its not good news to pursue a failed project, better cut your losses and begin with a new design.

If the AIP and LI Batteries make it successfully at the earliest , Most certainly Indian Navy will opt for the Amur design

I dont think so, they will want to see a succesful submarine. And i dont see the Kilo is at the end of its design improvement life.

By Austin not me.

runaway wrote:

AlfaT8 wrote:I wouldn't say the best in the world, but definitely one of the best in the world, the Type214 still wins in depth, at least double that of the Lada.

The 214 isnt a succesful design, it has many flaws and design problems, many costumers are unhappy.
The Lada´s test depth is 300m, the 214 400m, hardly double.. The big difference is 214´s doublehull against Ladas monohull. And it seems the monohull wasnt a good idea.

Thanks for the heads up, i thought the Type214 and 212 had the same max depth, i wonder why they don't??

Austin wrote:Kilo is being improvised but there is as much juice you can get get from a late 70's design. Kilo design served well but its dated for 21st century.

Hmmm....Lets use the western term of battle proven/proven design, anyway if it ain't broken don't "fix" it.

Austin wrote:Lada is the right move but its taking too long to come up to operational level and now the best hope for it is the next two sub and hopefully they get it right.

I believe Mindstorm already cleared that up in the earlier post.

Austin wrote:Coming back to depth its not about double or single hull but the materials used , 300 m depth for conventional subs is good enough for most task its designed to perform.

I fully agree.

Kilo is a double hull sub which means it has larger wetted area needing more powerful engine and far more fuel/energy to get greater range compared to single hull submarine. Considering Fuel/Energy is a premium on conventional submarine double hull on SSK can have its own issue.

Reason Russia moved to single hull Lada design that are smaller , ligher and can geting longer range for similar fuel as kilo.

So the issue is its not broken lets not fix it does not arise , The reason why russia is continuing with Kilo design is because Lada design has not come up to expectation and is decade behind service due to technical and management issue coupled with financial problems for the 90's

Since your debunking rumors, there are those who say that the Amur/Lada with VLS cruise missiles will have no room for the AIP propulsion,

Hahahaha... funny. the AIP section is like the VLS section... look at any submarine design and point out the empty space with enough room to add vertical launch tubes for a dozen or more cruise missiles, or an entire propulsion system?

The AIP section or VLS section can be added to the existing design... the original sub is designed with separate compartments and adding new compartments is kinda straight forward.

and a follow up question, will the AIP engine replace or will it assist the Diesel engine sorta like a hybrid?

An AIP section would technically be the third propulsion system in the sub... a diesel electric generally has diesel and electric motors, which run on diesel and batteries respectively. This new Russian AIP uses diesel fuel to generate electricity so in many ways it is like a battery in that it is quiet and has no moving parts. BTW western AIPs use hydrogen and basically do the same thing... generate electricity like a battery.

I wouldn't say the best in the world, but definitely one of the best in the world, the Type214 still wins in depth, at least double that of the Lada.

The main problem there is that Russian torpedos can hit either sub no matter how deep they go, and being hit at 400m will crush a sub like a beer can... it is rather more important to not have to surface for almost a month than it is to be able to dive deeper... there is no benefit to diving deeper any more when you can't outdive the enemies torpedoes or depth charges or mines etc.

In many coastal areas the water is often very shallow anyway.

although i wonder if these breakthroughs will be passed to the kilo design?

The export model of the Kilo will likely be offered with the export model of the AIP.

Its not good news to pursue a failed project, better cut your losses and begin with a new design.

The fact that they are pursuing it suggests the rumours of its failure are largely exaggerated.

The reason why russia is continuing with Kilo design is because Lada design has not come up to expectation and is decade behind service due to technical and management issue coupled with financial problems for the 90's

Kilo is a proven design in production... just like the Russian Navy is buying Talwars as well as new ships... both are effective, though the new generation systems are a generation ahead... it is like the PAK FA and Su-35S... they are making both... and not because the PAK FA is rubbish either.

I think the main problem is that people in the west see Lada and they think old Italian crap... the Lada class SSK are potentially very powerful subs with electronics and sonar that is several levels above those fitted to other SSKs and comparable to those fitted to SSNs... the addition of AIPs and VLS just makes them even more competitive... the main difference between the Lada-M and an Akula will likely be top speed. Endurance will be largely dependent on the amount of food stored on board rather than other limitations.

First anaerobic system for Lada non-nuclear submarines due 2016 - Navy’s Commander

"In 2016, a full-scale model of anaerobic power plant, designed at "Rubin", will be ready, and the following year, 2017, this system may be installed at the first Lada submarine project 677,” he said. “It would be a different, modernised project of submarines of the class with several different, more technological parameters.”

"These anaerobic systems, as they are completed at "Rubin," will be used for future promising non-nuclear submarines of Lada class, which, surely, will serve also at the Northern Fleet," the admiral said.

He continued saying the use at non-nuclear submarines of anaerobic power plants would add to their level of secrecy, would reduce further the noise, increase endurance, which "undoubtedly will have a positive impact on effectiveness of their combat missions."

After the Navy Day first of its class will be transferred to RuAN.

Head submarine project "Harmony" will go to the Northern Fleet after the Navy Day

Viktor wrote:After the Navy Day first of its class will be transferred to RuAN.

Head submarine project "Harmony" will go to the Northern Fleet after the Navy Day

No word on the AIP system, it is supposed to be ready in 2014 i might guess all issues surrounding this new dev were solved but no official word about it

Hachimoto wrote:

Viktor wrote:After the Navy Day first of its class will be transferred to RuAN.

Head submarine project "Harmony" will go to the Northern Fleet after the Navy Day

No word on the AIP system, it is supposed to be ready in 2014 i might guess all issues surrounding this new dev were solved but no official word about it

Two more Lada class subs are in the production. Both will be finished by 2016 and the second one will have AIP.

Hopefully few more will start their life in Russian shipyards by 2016.

Mindstorm wrote:

Ship-Shape Submarines

Russia is ready for Project 75(I) competition
By Vladimir ‘Vovick’ Karnozov
FORCE September 2012

Interesting info ,thanks Austin. always precious (my vote to you).

“We already have a full scale specimen of such a battery. I believe that in less than two years we can get our Ion-Lithium battery installed on a submarine and be ready for mass production.”

This is a crucial point, glad to hear that something is moving for the good lately in this department.

so are they going to drop AIP in future?

No. They will not drop their AIP.

It sounds like their AIP is rather more practical than western systems that require hydrogen to be piped into the sub at the dock.

The Russian AIP extracts the required chemicals to make the fuel cell produce electricity directly from diesel which ports are already able to supply.

In terms of infrastructure this means Subs with the Russian AIP system can use any dock in the world right now without any modification or infrastructure expenditure... which is enormously important.

Yes indeed not like the U-boat which require a lot of infra.

I got this question because i saw the news about he Ion-Lithium battery... maybe this would be for the russian navy version Lada and AIP for Amur  

I got this question because i saw the news about he Ion-Lithium battery... maybe this would be for the russian navy version Lada and AIP for Amur

At the end of the day better batteries that allow longer periods underwater plus AIP which also allows more time submerged seems to me to be a win win situation... use both technologies.

All boats with AIP modules have at least three propulsion options... diesel, electric(using batteries), and electric (using AIP).

The latter two are silent, but are obviously limited by battery capacity in the first case and hydrogen capacity in the second on a U boat.

I really don't know how this new Russian AIP actually works... what is left over after it processes the diesel, but it seems to be very powerful in terms of the energy it can generate... the question remains how efficient it is at using diesel for generating electricity in comparison with diesel engines.

Interview with Chief Designer  CKB "Rubin" Igor Molchanov.



Has many interesting information on Lada Submariner


http://ria.ru/interview/20140206/993240643.html

Amur 950

Experimental VNEU for submarines

Research work on the creation of experimental samples airindependent power plant (VNEU) and the new lithium-ion battery for non-nuclear submarines, the fifth generation will be completed in 2014.


This was reported by Itar-Tass chief designer CDB "Rubin" Igor Molchanov.


"We are now at the stage of research work. In terms VNEU and lithium-ion batteries is an advanced R & D by the end of 2014, which culminate in the establishment is not quite the prototype, but the most approximate to it. This is a purely technical details, "- said the source.


He explained that the actual prototype installation and batteries will be created upon completion of development work, which will begin in 2015 Meanwhile, in July, CEO of CCB "Rubin" Igor Villeneuve said that by the end of 2014 will create a prototype VNEU spring deputy director of the company Andrey Baranov said that to complete the creation of the prototype is planned in 2016, the Russian Navy expects to receive the first of NNS with airindependent installation already in 2016-2017. (We are talking about boats 4th generation - Project 677).


According Molchanov, a new lithium-ion battery is fundamentally different from the lead. "It is completely different. She has higher capacity and security, it does not require expensive service systems. It's a completely different principle of operation, there is no electrolyte ", - explained.


He said that these batteries will allow submarines of Project 677 (code "Lada") under water almost 1.5 times longer, even without the use of VNEU. However, under the new battery will have to redo the entire electro-energy system submarines previous projects 877 (code "Halibut") and 636.3 (code "Varshavyanka"). In size the new battery is the same, but the electrician has to be different.


"The battery and VNEU should be used in conjunction, then it will be the expected effect. Will they be first installed on the "Lada" or on some one other project - decision in the main command of the Russian Navy. Airindependent installation and battery, we are developing as part of the work on the boat fifth generation "- said Molchanov.