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    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jun 23, 2023 4:54 am

    That is a huge amount of range. Overkill. None of the weapons on the Ka-52 operate at that distance.

    It is technically a recon attack helicopter... what the Commanche would have been but without the stealth, so range is actually useful and being able to find targets without getting close to enemy territory is a good thing that this current conflict has properly established I would think.

    BTW it can carry Hermes and LMUR missiles with ranges from 20km plus and designed to engage a range of different target types... not just enemy armour.

    Long range collection of target data with the Hokums would be ideal, they could operate as overwatch while the better armoured Mi-28s go in and shoot stuff up.
    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:17 am

    🇷🇺🇺🇦 KA-52 destroying Ukrainian tanks and infantry in Zaporozhye direction
    https://t.me/intelslava/49128

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    Post  lyle6 Wed Jun 28, 2023 11:51 pm

    lancelot wrote:
    That is a huge amount of range. Overkill. None of the weapons on the Ka-52 operate at that distance.
    Attack helicopters need quite a bit of detection range because they need to plan their approach before attacking.

    They don't have much armor so tanking heavy fire with frontal assaults is out of the question.


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    Post  GarryB Thu Jun 29, 2023 6:01 am

    Your targets might not be at the edge of the enemy force... they might have a few layers of platforms in front of them that can shoot at you so range lets you shoot over defences to get targets deeper in the enemy lines first without having to fight your way in dealing with the forward defences first.

    Being able to pick through the enemy forces and take out air defence and HQ and other targets can really effect how they perform.

    Especially if you can smack EW jamming your drones and comms positions as well as air defence platforms and command and control sites.

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    Kiko
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    Post  Kiko Fri Jun 30, 2023 10:49 pm

    It's impossible to fight. APU was horrified by one Russian combat vehicle, 06.30.2023.

    Der Spiegel: Western weapons were powerless against the Russian Ka-52 helicopter.

    MOSCOW, June 30 - RIA Novosti. The Russian Ka-52 helicopter poses a huge threat to the Armed Forces of Ukraine, as Western weapons cannot cope with it, writes the German magazine Spiegel.

    “Now a formidable enemy is often circling over the positions of the Ukrainian infantry: the Russian Ka-52, known as the Alligator. It is considered one of the best attack helicopters in the world, although it did not manage to fully prove itself in last year’s operations. Now the situation has changed dramatically", the post says.

    The author recalls that the Alligator has impressive weapons, including guided air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles and the Whirlwind anti-tank system. Thus, the crew can fire from a distance of up to ten kilometers. At the same time, the range of destruction of the German anti-aircraft system Gepard, transferred to Ukraine, is insufficient, as is that of the Stinger missile, capable of attacking equipment at a distance of up to four to six kilometers.

    The Ukrainian army cannot even send planes to intercept the Ka-52s, since Russian fighters are capable of shooting them down from a long distance, the article notes. In addition, during such operations, the already few aircraft of the Armed Forces of Ukraine would be in close proximity to Russian anti-aircraft missile systems, concludes Spiegel.

    https://ria.ru/20230630/oruzhie-1881411035.html

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    Post  Scorpius Fri Jun 30, 2023 11:24 pm


    The Ka-52 lost part of the tail boom after being hit by the MANPADS, but returned to base.

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    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Wed Jul 12, 2023 11:27 pm

    Imagine the conversation in the design office "Yes it is possible, I have found a spot to bolt another item on at the end" Laughing

    Zlatti71
    @djuric_zlatko
    The new K-52M.

    This beauty burns Leopards and Bradleys of the enemy. All their praised and hyped equipment is blown to smithereens.

    And our main pride is the ultra-standard on-board defence system installed on it, which prevents any of the enemy's MANPADS from striking at a working vehicle.

    That's why the enemy's equipment burns like dry grass🫡

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 36 F007vOvWIAoiEdO?format=jpg&name=small

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 36 F007vOZWYAIAcjN?format=jpg&name=small

    https://twitter.com/djuric_zlatko/status/1679063923792789505

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    Post  lyle6 Fri Jul 14, 2023 6:44 am


    The irony in that this scenario is perfect ball game for the GLATGM + electro-optic jammer combo.

    Now NATO knows, only 30 years well after the fact.

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    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Mon Jul 24, 2023 12:41 pm

    Very good article at the Drive, I know Smile on the Ka-52M

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 36 1b2-Ka-52M-in-Ukraine-photo_2023-07-14cFighterbomber-TG

    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/enhanced-version-of-russias-ka-52-attack-helicopter-appears

    In the comments is this one

    2 days ago

    I work outside nearby Martin State Airport and Aberdeen Proving Grounds in Maryland and not too far from BW International Airport. Due to that proximity, many interesting aircraft can be seen.

    A few week ago I spotted what could only be a Ka-52 helicopter headed south at a couple thousand feet of altitude. Nothing on Flight Tracker. I guess the guys at Aberdeen have something novel to test.
    Kiko
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    Post  Kiko Sun Jul 30, 2023 2:03 am

    Meet the Izdelie 305, a ruthless weapon that invalidates the Ukrainian counteroffensive, 07.29.2023.

    Western military and media organizations are admitting that Russian helicopters armed with Izdelie 305 missiles had a considerable impact on the results of the Kiev counteroffensive. Sputnik explores this weapon in detail.

    The Russian Ka-52M attack helicopters are equipped with a "new and very effective" long-range missile that poses a serious threat to the Ukrainian armed forces, according to the US media Forbes. The article cited the recent intelligence update of the Ministry of Defense of the United Kingdom, according to which one of the main improvements of the Ka-52M is the integration of the multipurpose light guided missile — LMUR, according to its acronym in Russian.

    In turn, the magazine indicated that this weapon "is in a different league" compared to others of this type and called it "remarkably deadly" and a "real escalation in the capabilities of helicopters" of the Russian army.

    The LMUR has appeared in the Russian Armed Forces relatively recently, but it has quickly proved to be an effective weapon for all kinds of combat missions. Its main advantage lies not only in the ability to achieve different types of objectives, but also in a certain flexibility of use, since it can be equipped on several carriers and has multiple modes of use. Sputnik reveals to you some of the main features of the missile terrifying for the enemy.

    Start of manufacturing

    Of some interest is the fact that the LMUR was not originally planned for the Russian Armed Forces. The roots of the missile, which would eventually be named Izdelie 305, come from the special contract of the Russian Federal Security Bureau (FSB), which ordered its manufacture from the Kolomna Design Bureau to arm the agency's helicopters. According to the initial idea, the new product of the Russian military industry would have to be used against various long-distance targets and provide fire support to ground units.

    The contract was agreed at the beginning of the 2010s, and already in the middle of the same decade the Izdelie 305 successfully passed state tests. Thus, the LMUR was recommended for service on corresponding structures.

    However, it is especially this period, when the Russian Defence Ministry noticed high prospects of the missile and conducted its own tests with different types of air carriers. Already at that stage they began to consider for use the latest models and modifications of Russian attack helicopters, including those that had not yet entered service, which confirmed the high expectations that the LMUR military agency had.

    Despite the fact that the first public demonstration of the Izdelie 305 did not take place until 2021, when all the main stages of development and testing had already been completed, the first combat use of the missile against various facilities and vehicles by the Russian Armed Forces was registered during its operations in Syria, before the open presentation. Today, the LMUR is applied to the framework of the Russian special military operation in Ukraine, which was captured in a multitude of combat videos showing the great accuracy of the new weapon.

    Main features of the LMUR

    According to publicly available data, which at the same time are not official, the LMUR air-to-surface guided missile has a maximum range of about 14.5 kilometers (it varies depending on the altitude and speed of the helicopter at the time of launch) and weighs about 100-105 kilos, which is twice as much as the Ataka or Vikhr anti-tank guided missiles. At the same time, it has a warhead that weighs about three times more than those of these two projectiles: about 25 kilos, which gives it a considerable penetration capacity.

    It has a solid fuel engine, with which it reaches speeds of up to 800 km/h. Its empennage and rudders are foldable for the convenience of transportation. The LMUR is less than 2 m long, has a body diameter of about 200 mm and a wingspan of no more than 600-700 mm.

    The Izdelie 305 is equipped with an optical seeker head that has two operating modes. The first mode assumes that the target is captured before the launch and the projectile follows it automatically. The second involves the flight to the approximate area of the target under the control of the carrier, followed by the detection of the target by the operator, who is responsible for the capture and manual guidance.

    The technological features of the missile include the interconnection of the guidance system with the communication equipment, which allows the transmission and reception of commands by video, including target acquisition. For helicopters, new types of launchers (APU, according to its acronym in Russian) were also developed, which are used with the Izdelie 305: APU-305 for one missile and APU-L for two at once.

    At Russian FSB service.

    Considering that the LMURS were originally ordered for the Russian Federal Security Bureau the first operators of the Izdelie 305 were the multi-purpose and transport-attack helicopters Mi-8MNP-2 and Mi-8AMTSH-VN of the FSB aviation.

    However, it was necessary to ensure the compatibility of the Izdelie 305 with the equipment of the Mi-8, so carriers received an additional set of devices, including launchers.

    After modernization, its maximum payload ranges from 6 to 8 LMUR missiles, depending on the task to be performed and/or the technical characteristics of a certain modification of the helicopter.

    In addition, the FSB helicopters received an optoelectronic station with day and night camera and laser rangefinder, which is installed under the nose of the fuselage. An antenna device for two-way communication with the missile is placed on the exterior of the modernized aircraft. Among the latest improvements, which also responds to the objective, the unmanned aerial vehicle interface equipment stands out. New fire control devices are installed in the cabins along with the standards and a console to control the launch and flight of the missile in different modes.

    In 2015-2016, the new configuration based on the Mi-8 variants had been tested and officially entered service.

    At the Russian Army service.

    However, the Russian Armed Forces opted for another way of introducing the LMUR into their service, that's why the set of improvements in the Army attack helicopters differs from those of the FSB.

    Thus, the first carrier of the Izdelie 305 in the Army aviation became the Mi-28NM helicopter, which has four pylons under the wing, each of which can mount a launcher for LMUR. As a result, the maximum ammunition includes eight missiles, which, at the same time, is rarely applied, since it is usually used in conjunction with other weapons.

    Target detection for LMUR is carried out with the standard means on board the Mi-28NM. After detecting the target, with the help of the optoelectronic system, its designation is issued to the head of the missile. The information from the radar and the optoelectronic system, as well as from the missile's guidance head, is displayed on the pilot and operator's screens. The control of the missile in flight can be carried out with the use of the devices of the unmanned aerial vehicle interface equipment, originally present on the helicopter.

    The same system is applied to Ka-52 attack helicopters and their modernized version. Like the Mi-28NM, the Ka-52 carries up to eight missiles and does not require an upgrade of the complex on-board equipment, already equipped with corresponding radars.

    The launch of the LMUR from Ka-52 or Mi-28NM is carried out in both modes: with the preliminary capture of the target or with the missile guided by the crew to the required point manually. Taking into account the prospects for the development of weapons and other equipment, the Ka-52M was also equipped with the devices of the unmanned aerial vehicle interface equipment.

    Russian attack helicopters equipped with the Izdelie 305 are capable of detecting and escorting various ground objects at different ranges, while preserving the entire arsenal. This availability of various types of guided weapons with different flight characteristics makes it easier for them to successfully fulfill a wide range of tasks.

    Yandex Translate from Spanish

    https://sputniknews.lat/20230729/conoce-el-izdelie-305-un-arma-despiadada-que-invalida-la-contraofensiva-ucraniana--videos-fotos-1142061886.html

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    Post  Sprut-B Thu Aug 31, 2023 9:42 pm

    I appreciate the beautiful animation, but I am skeptical of the claim of high Alligator losses in the early stages of SMO. While I agree with some of the criticism on its usage in the beginning, but comparing its losses with Apache losses is absurd, cause Murica and its lackys did not face any significant air defense threat.

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    Post  AMCXXL Fri Sep 15, 2023 9:43 am

    [Ka-52M] The volume of defense orders at the Progress Helicopter Plant, which produces Ka-52M combat helicopters, doubled in 2023. This plant is already preparing the GOZ-2024. This factory is big, it seems empty. 30 Ka-52M in 2023??
    [Russia] Sergei Shoigu became familiar with the manufacturing process of Ka-52M helicopters in the workshops of the Progress factory. New equipment, increasing the combat survivability of the helicopter. Crew training complex

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    Post  Kiko Fri Oct 06, 2023 7:13 pm

    Ka-52M attack helicopters received three fundamental improvements, by Alexander Timokhin for VZGLYAD. 10.06.2023.

    Russian troops continue to receive Ka-52M attack helicopters. The course of the special operation in Ukraine suggested how these combat vehicles could be improved, and the industry has already begun to modernize them. The improved Ka-52M has at least three main differences from the basic version.

    Recently, a series of reports have appeared about the modernization of the Ka-52M Alligator helicopter, one of the most effective weapons systems used during the SVO. A year ago it was said  that tests of the modernized vehicle were successfully carried out during combat operations. Before that, it was officially stated that the range of use of aviation weapons and target detection required improvements. Last summer it was officially  confirmed that the modernized Ka-52M is already being used during the SVO.

    “As for the modernization of the Ka-52M variant, it mainly affected on-board electronic weapons - a new radar complex with an active phased array antenna, a new optical-electronic aiming and surveillance system and a new fire control system, which allows the use of modern types of aircraft weapons.” “,  Viktor Murakhovsky, a member of the Expert Council of the Board of the Military-Industrial Commission, spoke about this at the beginning of testing the new machine.

    This was confirmed not long ago by the helicopter manufacturer, the Progress plant in the Primorsky Territory. “The modernized Ka-52M helicopter received new radar systems, sighting systems, as well as weapons with significantly increased characteristics,” said plant director Sergei Shamshura.

    Judging by statements from developers and the military, these systems may have a number of qualitative differences from those that were installed on helicopters previously.

    Improved target recognition

    The Ka-52 is a carrier of Whirlwind anti-tank missiles; theoretically and previously it could use them from a very long range, up to a maximum of 10 kilometers. Taking into account the threats from the air defense of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, this is important. However, it was recently mentioned that the maximum range of use of Whirlwind missiles on the Ka-52M is only eight kilometers.

    Apparently, when using missiles at maximum range, limitations in the operation of the sighting equipment could have an effect. Thus, when using a thermal imager (that is, when working at night), it is more difficult to identify the target. A year ago  , it was reported  that work was underway to create a new sighting system for the helicopter that would improve the capabilities of using weapons: “work is underway to increase the range of use of the Whirlwind missile to 10 km.”

    Now we see that new helicopters with modernized optical-electronic sighting systems are already being supplied to the air defense system. And this means that the task of achieving the maximum range of use of the Whirlwind missile has been solved.

    Onboard defense complex

    Some time ago it was reported that the modernized Ka-52M “received an improved airborne defense system (ADS), which will protect it from the entire existing range of MANPADS.” The name of the new BKO has not been officially announced; specialized military-analytical resources suggest that we may be talking about the L418 “Monoblock” system.

    Of course, the BKOs previously installed on helicopters have shown themselves to be worthy. For example, during the landing on Gostomel, the Ka-52 showed itself to be extremely invulnerable to man-portable air defense systems (MANPADS). And in the future, the Ka-52s were used with great intensity, and their losses during such intensive combat use cannot be considered unjustified. That is, the regular BKO performed well. Why was a new one needed?

    The point is the intensity of the use of the Ka-52 during the SVO. Sometimes damaged vehicles could fall into enemy hands. While studying the trophy, both Ukraine and its Western partners would likely have paid close attention to the helicopter's onboard defense system - the system that makes it such a difficult target to hit. Western military engineers are undoubtedly looking for a way to overcome these defenses.

    And now the Russian Ka-52M is receiving a new airborne defense system. This most likely means that the information obtained from studying the previous modification will be of little use to NATO and the Ukrainian Armed Forces.

    Moreover, right now, as Vladimir Artyakov, First Deputy General Director of the Rostec state corporation, stated not long ago, “work is underway to create promising airborne defense systems that use both traditional and other design principles. They will ensure the protection of aircraft from guided weapons, including those with combined guidance systems.”

    Lightweight multi-purpose guided missile

    The modernization of the Ka-52 also made it possible to expand the possibilities of using missile weapons from a helicopter. One of the discoveries of the SVO is the light multi-purpose guided missile (LMUR), also known as the “305” product. This guided missile with a launch range of up to 14.5 km and remote control has long been used in the Northern Military District.

    The missile proved to be an extremely effective weapon. During flight, the missile transmits to the carrier helicopter an image from the missile's sighting camera or thermal imager and allows the operator on board the helicopter to correct its approach to the target. A powerful warhead makes it possible not only to guarantee the destruction of armored vehicles, any kind, but also to hit buildings. The firing range allows the missile to be used from a distance that is relatively safe for a helicopter.

    The use of these missiles is becoming increasingly widespread. Thus, the modernized Mi-28 is capable of carrying four such missiles, and now the Ka-52 in its modernized form can do this normally. All Gators now have a long arm, which is a very positive thing.

    A special feature of the missile’s use is the need for external target designation - without reconnaissance means external to the helicopter, it will not be possible to fully realize its potential. Although if the crew knows for sure about the presence of a target in the designated area, then in some cases it can be found by the missile itself.

    It was previously  noted how great the combat potential of the LMUR is and how effective the use of this missile can be with secure reconnaissance. Predictably, the next step will soon be taken - the closest interaction will be organized between helicopters equipped with long-range missiles and drones capable of finding a target for them, and then such actions will move on to a permanent systemic basis.

    The armed forces need qualitative superiority over the enemy, and the Ka-52M is one of the components of such superiority. The head of the Ministry of Defense Sergei Shoigu recently spoke about the importance of improving the combat characteristics of these helicopters . And although no single weapon system can change the course of the war, these helicopters will definitely make their contribution to our victory.

    https://vz.ru/society/2023/10/6/1232302.html

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    Post  AMCXXL Wed Nov 01, 2023 4:44 pm



    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 36 F91yZtQWYAAnRoa?format=jpg&name=large

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    Post  AMCXXL Mon Nov 13, 2023 8:21 am

    Probably Dzhankoy


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    Post  owais.usmani Tue Nov 21, 2023 5:00 pm

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    Post  JohninMK Thu Nov 30, 2023 10:00 pm

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    Post  franco Sun Dec 10, 2023 12:11 pm

    The Russian Ministry of Defense for the first time officially announced the use of modernized Ka-52M helicopters in the Northern Military District zone. Improved rotary-wing vehicles attacked positions of the Ukrainian Armed Forces in one of the sections of the Donetsk direction.

    The modernized Ka-52M began to enter service with the troops at the beginning of this year; the military received the first batch of helicopters in January 2023. Prior to this, prototypes of the helicopter were used in combat, but the Ministry of Defense did not publicize this; only unofficial information appeared. Today, the Ka-52 is the main attack helicopter in the Northern Military District zone, which has proven its effectiveness.

    Army aviation crews on Ka-52M helicopters as part of a strike group carried out an attack with unguided aircraft missiles on enemy strongholds and manpower in the Donetsk direction
    - the Ministry of Defense said in a statement.

    As the military department clarified, the helicopters struck with unguided missiles at the coordinates transmitted by the aircraft controller. The result was the destruction of the control center and armored vehicles of the Ukrainian Armed Forces.

    The Ka-52M is a modernized version of the Ka-52 Alligator combat helicopter. The helicopter was modernized taking into account the experience of combat operations in Syria and Ukraine. The helicopter received new on-board systems: navigation, sighting, fire control and communications systems, as well as new weapons. The Ka-52M's armor has been strengthened and a new on-board defense system has been installed to protect the vehicle from anti-aircraft missiles. The armament was unified with another rotorcraft - the Mi-28NM.

    https://topwar-ru.translate.goog/231966-minoborony-vpervye-oficialno-soobschilo-o-primenenii-v-zone-svo-modernizirovannyh-vertoletov-ka-52m.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en

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    Post  Hole Sun Dec 10, 2023 4:18 pm

    As the designation Ka-52M was used the first time the helicopter had the guidance antenna for LMUR missiles
    under one wing. Now the modernised version looks like the good old Ka-52 from the outside.

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    Post  diabetus Mon Jan 15, 2024 7:49 pm

    How many do you guys think are active now?
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    Post  Atmosphere Tue Apr 16, 2024 9:02 pm

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPcLSzANMI0
    rotorless tail shows its usefulness, the helicopter returned to base safely.
    Gomig-21
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    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 36 Empty Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Gomig-21 Wed Apr 17, 2024 3:09 am

    Kiko wrote:Ka-52M attack helicopters received three fundamental improvements, by Alexander Timokhin for VZGLYAD. 10.06.2023.

    Russian troops continue to receive Ka-52M attack helicopters. The course of the special operation in Ukraine suggested how these combat vehicles could be improved, and the industry has already begun to modernize them. The improved Ka-52M has at least three main differences from the basic version.

    Onboard defense complex

    Some time ago it was reported that the modernized Ka-52M “received an improved airborne defense system (ADS), which will protect it from the entire existing range of MANPADS.” The name of the new BKO has not been officially announced; specialized military-analytical resources suggest that we may be talking about the L418 “Monoblock” system.

    Of course, the BKOs previously installed on helicopters have shown themselves to be worthy. For example, during the landing on Gostomel, the Ka-52 showed itself to be extremely invulnerable to man-portable air defense systems (MANPADS). And in the future, the Ka-52s were used with great intensity, and their losses during such intensive combat use cannot be considered unjustified. That is, the regular BKO performed well. Why was a new one needed?

    The point is the intensity of the use of the Ka-52 during the SVO. Sometimes damaged vehicles could fall into enemy hands. While studying the trophy, both Ukraine and its Western partners would likely have paid close attention to the helicopter's onboard defense system - the system that makes it such a difficult target to hit. Western military engineers are undoubtedly looking for a way to overcome these defenses.

    And now the Russian Ka-52M is receiving a new airborne defense system. This most likely means that the information obtained from studying the previous modification will be of little use to NATO and the Ukrainian Armed Forces.

    Moreover, right now, as Vladimir Artyakov, First Deputy General Director of the Rostec state corporation, stated not long ago, “work is underway to create promising airborne defense systems that use both traditional and other design principles. They will ensure the protection of aircraft from guided weapons, including those with combined guidance systems.”

    Does this mean now that the President-S system is no good since it's fallen into the hands of NATO after some of the downed Ka-52s had their systems removed and given to the west to analyze?  That sucks, especially for the Egyptian army with all its Ka-52s.  It also begs the question - what about the other platforms operating the President-S such as the Mi-8s & Mi-17s?  That doesn't sound like a small problem.

    And now if they make a new ADS system for the Ka-52M to replace the President-S, what's to stop the same thing from happening again should one of them fall in the hands of the enemy?  Seems like an inherent problem with such a type of ADS.

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    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 36 Empty Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB Wed Apr 17, 2024 3:18 am

    Old video, already been posted on this thread.   Embarassed

    Came across some images of the optics of the Ka-52 family:

    This image shows (as labelled) he Ka-52, Ka-52M and Ka-52K (naval?) optics:

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 36 508dd710

    The centre upgraded optics are not fully visible so here is a better image of the centre optics ball for the upgraded Ka-52M:

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 36 Db7fad10

    So left original Ka-52 upgrade and right Ka-52M upgrade...

    Does this mean now that the President-S system is no good since it's fallen into the hands of NATO after some of the downed Ka-52s had their systems removed and given to the west to analyze? That sucks, especially for the Egyptian army with all its Ka-52s.

    No. Any Ka-52s they might have recovered would be the older models, and getting hold of a defensive system is just the start... you then have to work out how it works and then work out how to bypass how it works and apply that to your new missiles... and by that time the Russians will know you have their old jammers and will be developing new models... they will have captured all sorts of SAMs in the Ukraine conflict and will be working on countermeasures for those as well.

    They might learn how to make better helicopters of course...

    You will want to get rid of your Abrams tanks too then now that Russia has captured them and appears able to destroy them very easily... not to mention the west seems to delay the delivery of F-16s... maybe they are not so good?

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    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 36 Empty Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Hole Wed Apr 17, 2024 11:49 am

    Everybody in the world knows how flares work. But they are still used and still effective. Most of the time.
    Same for the Vitebsk/President-S system. The Dazzlers work on such a broad range and are so powerful
    that you can´t really make a missile immune against it.

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    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 36 Empty Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Gomig-21 Wed Apr 17, 2024 8:11 pm

    GarryB wrote:No. Any Ka-52s they might have recovered would be the older models, and getting hold of a defensive system is just the start... you then have to work out how it works and then work out how to bypass how it works and apply that to your new missiles... and by that time the Russians will know you have their old jammers and will be developing new models... they will have captured all sorts of SAMs in the Ukraine conflict and will be working on countermeasures for those as well.

    That's all find and dandy, but it still doesn't negate the fact that the old/current ADS has now been compromised, so to speak and that's by the Russian rep's own admission in so many words.  My point is that unfortunately it has a trickle-down effect onto exports.  It's certainly not pejorative in any way, just constructive criticism.  That may be the nature of the game but it's still a valid concern, wouldn't you agree?  

    GarryB wrote:You will want to get rid of your Abrams tanks too then now that Russia has captured them and appears able to destroy them very easily... not to mention the west seems to delay the delivery of F-16s... maybe they are not so good?

    Why?  Is Russia our enemy?  Would Russia give out inconsequential secrets of western hardware to an enemy of one of its own top export customers?  The 'West' on the other hand...

    And I say "inconsequential" because that's not a valid analogy.  Tanks are tanks and there is nothing much in the way of something like the Ka-52's ADS which is a specific technology that's part of the aircraft's defensive EW suite which is on the same lines as OPSEC material.  Not even mentioned in sales brochures and only discussed during highly confidential settings & contract negotiations between the seller and eventual buyer.

    The only thing akin to something like the President-S ADS on the Ka-52 that would pertain to tanks is an APS, and those aren't part of EGY Abrams.  And now that you mentioned the Abrams, we can put an even larger emphasis on the wider concern of this ADS' possible obsolescence and that is its effect on future deals of similar systems but on different platforms.

    For example, the deal for 500 T-90MS' would've potentially included the Arena-M APS (and I'm just throwing this out there) that the trickle-down effect could now affect this deal.  Again, this isn't complaining or bashing, it's understanding if this is the case and if this is an inherent problem with such particular systems that could possibly have a simpler solution without making the system irrelevant.

    Perhaps a change in the avionics' programing/software/hardware or a simple mechanism swap that's not too involved which would give it a new & unknown signature.  Or add/change an EW component that alters its current signals? dunno  Just throwing out sshhhtttuff seeing if it sticks.  It's tough to convey these concerns sometimes without making them sound like just bitching or bashing, especially on this platform! lol1

    Hole wrote:Everybody in the world knows how flares work. But they are still used and still effective. Most of the time.
    Same for the Vitebsk/President-S system. The Dazzlers work on such a broad range and are so powerful
    that you can´t really make a missile immune against it.

    So maybe it's just a precautionary upgrade? That's a good thing, then.

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